Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Kg...]]

My mana:  No what you do is take the .001 gram weight off of your dose. So if your gram weight for your pill is .085 you cut .001 grams to .084 gram weight - and then the next day you cut another pill to .084 and the next day to .084 so after 3 days of cutting all your pills will weigh .084 and then you begin again - if you cut every day.  You really don't look at mg anymore but if you want to figure it out you add up your total gram weight/divide by your pill weight and multiply by .5 to get your total mg dose. This by the way is a very fast pace to cut every day.  Most of us don't cut every day but put in holds as we go down otherwise you are cutting at a very fast rate.  You need to find your own pace so I would start slow perhaps at your dose starting at every other day and then  going up if this works for you. I used Bets schedule she cuts 10 pills in 14 days with holds built in now I am slowing down.  If you go the the Klonopin board and look for her posts you will see her cut schedule. 

 

In  your case add up .084 x3 your total gram weight divide this by .172 your pill weight and multiple by .5.  You should weigh about 10 pills of K to get your average weight and this is the number you use to figure out your mg dose throughout your entire taper.

 

I hope this helps. 

[[my...]]

Thank you KGirl...

Currently, I am tapering .03125 every ten days.  So far, so good.  I have done a cut and hold taper up until now, and may continue, or may not, as things go on.  As I wrote...I won't hold to that this week or next b/c of travel but thought instead of another cut/hold when I return, beginning my MT.

 

I see what you mean now about taking it off one, then the other, then the third dose.  One problem is that my three halves are not exactly equal in weight. What you are describing as a MT is essentially what I'm doing with cut and hold....I now cut .03125 (formerly .06125 until that got too hard) from my mid-day dose for ten days - two weeks, then .03125 from my night time dose, then from my a.m. Dose, then repeat. 

 

It's just that with such a small reduction (as in a MT) I would think the weights on all the pills would need to be almost identical which is hard to do unless I keep bits and crumbs separated in waxed paper, for example, rather than my 3 daily pils in a M- Sun pill divider. .....is that right? Does each dose, initially, have to be the same?  It should, I would think.

 

 

[[Kg...]]

My Mana you can taper each dose as you wish but most of us want to keep our doses around the same so we cut from one of our doses and then cut another dose we take.  In your case if your doses are unequal you would cut from your highest dose first until all your doses are around the same. This is because for most of us we want to keep our blood level of the drug 'the same' as we go down on the drug vs going up and down during the day if the doses vary too much.  Others of course find that unequal doses work better for them so again it is up to how you feel not anyone else.  I did the cut and hold as you did - cutting from first one dose and then the next dose. To be frank I find the micro taper easier to do since it allows me complete control and also to go faster than I did on cut and hold.  If you feel 'bad' you can just slow your taper the next day vs wondering if you should go up, how long to hold etc etc.  Right now you are cutting a very small amount and you are not feeling well.  IMHO your body is telling you it is time for a change.  All you need to buy now to MT (if you use pills) is a pill holder.  They are pretty inexpensive at any drug store.  Some people use plastic baggies and label them - your choice.  If you use liquid to taper SG or others here will tell you how to do that - again any method you choose is fine as long as it is working for you.  The goal of course is to feel okay as you go down - we all get s/x but you want them to be bearable - heal as you get off, and to be frank throw out your calendar. The micro taper should be like going down a ramp there are bumps along the way so we stop at the ramp and wait awhile but it is easier than going down a staircase and we don't have to 'walk back up'.   

[[...]]

I do have a question however....if as has been suggested, I decide to begin a microtaper with my next reduction (have to hold a bit longer this cut for travel to see our kids next week).  I'm not sure how it works in this respect:  assuming a .5 mg pill of average weight 170-172 g, and I want to MT .003 mg per day or .001 g per day, what do I do in terms of my three doses?  What do I weigh to get to, say, .001 g less than my current total gram weight?  At present, I am splitting my .5's in half and using 3 halves, weighing each and making one of them less by .03125 mg.  for example, say each of the halves weigh approx .085 grams, I shave one of the halves down so it weighs .075 g - the equivalent of a .03125 reduction.

 

If I were to MT from my current dose (.718), at the end of November, how do I do it, practically speaking?  I'm sure it is

easy...just as finally "getting" the idea of converting mg's to grams was.  I need to have an aha moment.  Just preparing for the MT!

 

Thanks so much,

 

Mana

 

A good way to do this is to rotate through the doses.  Drop dose 1 by .001g, the next day drop dose 2 by .001g, third day drop dose 3 by .001g, fourth day back to dose 1, then dose 2, then dose 3, and so on.

 

SG, While still maintaining the previous drops in doses right?

[[Be...]]

My mana,

Jumping in briefly. Please try to keep the pills and pill pieces you will weigh and cut, in an airtight container. You don't want there to be a moisture absorbency issue throwing of the weight with MT. Less of an issue with cut and hold. Good luck with this. I think you are getting great advice.

Bennie

[[...]]

Thank you KGirl...

Currently, I am tapering .03125 every ten days.  So far, so good.  I have done a cut and hold taper up until now, and may continue, or may not, as things go on.  As I wrote...I won't hold to that this week or next b/c of travel but thought instead of another cut/hold when I return, beginning my MT.

 

I see what you mean now about taking it off one, then the other, then the third dose.  One problem is that my three halves are not exactly equal in weight. What you are describing as a MT is essentially what I'm doing with cut and hold....I now cut .03125 (formerly .06125 until that got too hard) from my mid-day dose for ten days - two weeks, then .03125 from my night time dose, then from my a.m. Dose, then repeat. 

 

It's just that with such a small reduction (as in a MT) I would think the weights on all the pills would need to be almost identical which is hard to do unless I keep bits and crumbs separated in waxed paper, for example, rather than my 3 daily pils in a M- Sun pill divider. .....is that right? Does each dose, initially, have to be the same?  It should, I would think.

 

mymana,

  If you haven't already tried, or maybe try again is a liquid MT. It is SO much more accurate and made a huge difference in lessening W/D sx's. It is also a lot less hassle. I found when I got to 0.5mg I could not handle C+H anymore, too harsh. Just a thought. Good Luck, Rose

[[my...]]

Wow...I appreciate your responses!! Thanks for trying to help.  Not sure I'm following it all but I'll re-read this tomorrow.  It's very generous. 

[[...]]

I do have a question however....if as has been suggested, I decide to begin a microtaper with my next reduction (have to hold a bit longer this cut for travel to see our kids next week).  I'm not sure how it works in this respect:  assuming a .5 mg pill of average weight 170-172 g, and I want to MT .003 mg per day or .001 g per day, what do I do in terms of my three doses?  What do I weigh to get to, say, .001 g less than my current total gram weight?  At present, I am splitting my .5's in half and using 3 halves, weighing each and making one of them less by .03125 mg.  for example, say each of the halves weigh approx .085 grams, I shave one of the halves down so it weighs .075 g - the equivalent of a .03125 reduction.

 

If I were to MT from my current dose (.718), at the end of November, how do I do it, practically speaking?  I'm sure it is

easy...just as finally "getting" the idea of converting mg's to grams was.  I need to have an aha moment.  Just preparing for the MT!

 

Thanks so much,

 

Mana

 

A good way to do this is to rotate through the doses.  Drop dose 1 by .001g, the next day drop dose 2 by .001g, third day drop dose 3 by .001g, fourth day back to dose 1, then dose 2, then dose 3, and so on.

 

SG, While still maintaining the previous drops in doses right?

 

Hi Rose, yes, each dose steps down one tick and stays there until it comes around again and is time to drop down another tick.

[[my...]]

So with the help of coffee ☕️ and nourishment 🍌 I went back to read all the responses to the MT questions.. SG, thank you for adding your simple recipe for rotation.  And Rose, for additionally clarifying.

 

SG, what is your thought in terms of evening out the halves of a .5? Right now, as I may have mentioned, my doses are roughly .085 g plus .075 g plus .085 g.  The two .085’s are not necessarily exact, but are close.  The middle dose, the .075g is weighed exactly.  I haven't weighed pills much with C/H but have rather gone by sight. Any thoughts on the MT approach in terms of making each dose equal when working with a .5 mg tab? 

 

BTW, I don't wish to do a liquid taper.

 

Thanks, everyone.

[[...]]

So with the help of coffee ☕️ and nourishment 🍌 I went back to read all the responses to the MT questions.. SG, thank you for adding your simple recipe for rotation.  And Rose, for additionally clarifying.

 

SG, what is your thought in terms of evening out the halves of a .5? Right now, as I may have mentioned, my doses are roughly .085 g plus .075 g plus .085 g.  The two .085’s are not necessarily exact, but are close.  The middle dose, the .075g is weighed exactly.  I haven't weighed pills much with C/H but have rather gone by sight. Any thoughts on the MT approach in terms of making each dose equal when working with a .5 mg tab? 

 

BTW, I don't wish to do a liquid taper.

 

Thanks, everyone.

 

I like to keep all doses even so if your total weight is .245g I'd make two of them .082g and one of them .081g and then taper down the two .082g doses to .081g, then bring them all down together by rotating through them.

[[my...]]

Thanks SG...That's a good idea.  Just added up the numbers and see you are referring to my current dose, so will even them out beginning tomorrow.  You make things so simple....hallmark of a really smart person.  But we all knew that. 

[[ga...]]

Thanks SG... You make things so simple....hallmark of a really smart person.  But we all knew that. 

 

:thumbsup:

 

Trying to make SG blush.

[[mo...]]

Hi All,

 

Thanks to some great help and advice from SG, and from so many others, I started on a micro taper of V after doing an Ashton Protocol Crossover from A to V and then getting stuck on the Ashton Cut and Hold with severe sxs. The micro taper has been a major breakthrough for me, but it is going sooooo s-l-o-w-l-y... I am now a year into this and still only at 4.75mgs V per day and having to hold yet AGAIN because I am currently dealing with an episode of Shingles. I can't decide whether I should try to cut while still having the severe pain or not as neuropathy and nerve pain is a known sx of benzo w/d and, since the pain of Shingles can last so long, at which point do I start cutting if I am going to keep going with this? Since the cuts are so small with a micro taper, maybe it wouldn't make a difference with the Shingles...on the other hand, turns out Shingles can be nasty sometimes, so I'm very wary of doing anything that would make my sxs worse, but I really don't know WHAT to do...I am only a week into the whole Shingles mess.

 

Also, among many other things I think about in re benzos, tapering and w/d sxs, I have been wondering throughout this process if slowing down the taper to a micro taper, as versus the Ashton Cut and Hold, means some people may end up with less V stored in their bodies when they finally jump since the doses are higher and the taper rate generally much faster? I understand (and have learned for myself) that the micro tapering makes tapering so much more tolerable for me with the lower and slower process, but if one does the Ashton Cut and Hold, when one finally jumps, would there conceivably be more V in the system to help "cover" the post jump sxs and act as it's own "micro-taper" after jumping when one is finally totally OFF benzos? But, since the micro taper IS so slow and goes so low, would it even matter how much V is left in the system as one would conceivably have already been healing the GABA receptors so the final jump off would be less of a shock to the body?

 

Any ideas, info or input much appreciated!

 

Mo

[[an...]]

Hi Mosart,

 

I am so sorry to hear you have shingles.  My husband had them several years ago, so I understand the pain that you are probably experiencing.

 

I have no experience with valium, bu I am tapering lorazepam.  I tapered successfully back in 2007 with a slow daily liquid taper. I was worried about getting down to the lower doses and eventually having to jump.  I heard a lot of stories where people would finish their taper and end up with horrific symptoms.  My taper was essentially symptom free as long as I took my three doses a day and measured them correctly. By the time I got down to a very low dose, I was completely healed. I tapered to almost nothing, and I finally jumped when I realized I was experiencing no symptoms even when I would forget to take my doses. I had no problems after I jumped.  I was completely symptom free for several years.  I reinstated 5 years later for other reasons (I don't want to get into why I did this). I knew what I was getting myself into, but decided to do it anyway. Well, again I am doing a slow taper--I taper about 10% every two weeks.  I am down to a dose of 0.257 mg/day.  Several weeks ago I was ready to updose because the symptoms were bad.  I didn't updose, and now I am almost symptom free.  It is amazing--I am doing things now that I could not do a month ago.  I do believe that healing takes place as you taper. I will be at 0.25 mg on Friday. It will take me another 8 months or so (maybe a year) to taper this, but I believe by the time I jump, I will be completely healed. Hopefully this will be the case.

 

You asked about still tapering with shingles.  If it were me, I would probably keep making those very small daily cuts. If things got worse or I experienced wd symptoms, I would certainly hold. My main symptoms were/are high blood pressure spikes, chemical anxiety which brings on panic attacks, feeling off balance and lightheaded, inner shakiness, brain zaps, trouble swallowing, etc.  If these type of symptoms returned, I would have no problem holding because I know they are due to the lorazepam.  If not, I would keep going. I always go with how I feel. As I said, a few weeks ago I was ready to updose (glad I didn't) because I must remain functional so I can work. That is my main priority.

 

Good luck, and I hope you feel better soon. My husband got over the worse pain of the shingles in about 3 weeks. It then took almost a year for the redness to disappear. He would sometimes experience some tingling and pain, but nothing like the first few weeks.

Anne

 

[[my...]]

Hello Mosart,

While I cannot speak to the MT vs C/H argument other than to empathize with the fact that it ALL takes such an unexpectedly long time!! - I do have some experience with Shingles.  I first got it in my 40’s...I was working full time and in excellent health.  The only problem was that it was misdiagnosed and I didn't go on an anti-viral until almost a week or more after the bumps appeared.  It was not so much that the sxs were unbearable - they were not - but that the post herpetic nerve pain lasted for six months afterward!  Much more recently, I got it again (I know they say you cannot get it twice but you can)... and this time, I recognized it, went to a dermatologist right away and was on acyclovir by the end of the day.  Even though I was older, b/c it was caught and treated early, I had no post herpetic nerve pain.

 

So in terms of your withdrawal.  As long as you are being treated, you should be done with Shingles in a couple of weeks.  Since Shingles is pain and itching that travels along nerve pathways, it would seem to be a good idea to wait until it resolves before continuing with your taper.

 

What kind if taper, of course, is your call.  Also, it would be good to check with your doctor about all of this.

 

Good luck and sorry to hear you are not feeling well.

 

Mana.

 

[[my...]]

Just read Anne's post.  Everyone is different in terms of how they experience Shingles.  So while one person has lasting nerve pain, another does not, and while one person has redness that lasts a year....I certainly did not - either time.  Try not to be afraid.  But, I absolutely would not taper while ill.  No one on this site is qualified to answer this question.  Please do speak with your doctor.

[[oc...]]

Maybe I'm at too high a dose to consider daily microtapering, but I'd love some opinions. Quick synopsis: I cut too aggressively in the beginning and I'm really suffering. Too many mental and physical symptoms to list. I went from 2 mgs of K to 1.5 (not smart) and then continued to slowly taper to where I'm stuck: 1.25 mgs of pain for the past 6 weeks. I never really felt stable at any time, but I'd get these brief windows (mostly in the evening) and then feel empowered to go down a bit more.

 

Can anyone on this board relate? I keep praying that this hold will eventually even things out a bit, but so far no good. Thanks for reading my rambling post. Would greatly appreciate any feedback. Folks on the KK board suggest a slight updose to where I last felt stable - which may be great advice - but I don't ever recall feeling stable. Thanks.

 

Oh, and I currently take my dose 3x per day (via a compounding pharmacy). .4 mgs a.m. + .4 mgs afternoon + .45 mgs evening

[[Ma...]]

Moasrt,

I had shingles while in tolerance wd. I also had just had something very traumatic happen and then my aunt died of cancer. I was not in a good place. Anyway, my dr said it was the worse case she had ever seen, especially since it was all over my spine. That made nerve pain much worse. I was very sick for a month and then not as sick for a couple more. The rash left marks that eventually faded. Mederma helped them fade and I have no scars. After 3 months, I was completely symptom free. Lyrica helped with the pain. I am feeling foggy and forgetting the other meds they gave me. Hope your case is less severe than mine. I would not have cut, especially because stress is so bad for shingles. I would wait until you are a lot better. Your body needs time to heal. I agree with Mana that every case is different and you should consult your Dr. Also my case is not the usual. Others heal much quicker and have it a lot easier. Please be easy with yourself! I hope you feel better soon! Also I think you are doing a great job tapering

 

XO Maya 

[[si...]]

I started at 0.25mg of K and now down to just below 0.175.  My MT started at 0.20 back on 11/2.  That was over a 10% cut in that time.  I am now getting hit with agitation.  I'm trying to decide if I should hold for a bit and how do I know it's time to just move on.

[[Be...]]

Sierra,

 

Hi. If you are getting hit hard with sxs you might want to hold a few days. IMO, it's best to adjust the number of days you cut per week to proceed at a level of tolerable symptoms—versus crunching percentage numbers. You can make a taper work on paper but it's got to work in you  . I know you are feeling crappy. Hope you feel better. Everything is temporary, my friend.

 

Best, Bennie

 

[[ta...]]

I have been taking 2mg Ativan at bedtime (single dose) for insomnia for three years. For three weeks,  I have been experiencing some Tolerance withdrawal symptoms. In anticipation of my taper, I have split my 2mg single dose...into 4 doses of .5 , one every 6 hours. My withdrawal symptoms have gone away slowly, and I am feeling stable and strong enough to start a taper.

 

My Dr has given me a prescription from a compounding pharmacy, so making tiny cuts will be easier

 

Here is my question. Do I taper each dose by the same amount every time I make a cut (so I will always have 4 even doses)...or do I cut some doses more than others??....leaving more in the bedtime doses to help me sleep?

 

I plan to do a daily, micro taper of 5-7% total per week...which some folks on BB seem to think works better than a 5-10% cut and hold technique.

 

I don't care how long this takes me.....from the posts I have read so far, the SLOW approach seems to work better for most folks than Cold Turkey or big, rapid cuts.

 

This is my first taper using 4 doses and liquid Ativan, so I would really appreciate some advice and feedback before I start out.

 

Thanks to all you brave and generous souls

[[...]]

I have been taking 2mg Ativan at bedtime (single dose) for insomnia for three years. For three weeks,  I have been experiencing some Tolerance withdrawal symptoms. In anticipation of my taper, I have split my 2mg single dose...into 4 doses of .5 , one every 6 hours. My withdrawal symptoms have gone away slowly, and I am feeling stable and strong enough to start a taper.

 

My Dr has given me a prescription from a compounding pharmacy, so making tiny cuts will be easier

 

Here is my question. Do I taper each dose by the same amount every time I make a cut (so I will always have 4 even doses)...or do I cut some doses more than others??....leaving more in the bedtime doses to help me sleep?

 

I plan to do a daily, micro taper of 5-7% total per week...which some folks on BB seem to think works better than a 5-10% cut and hold technique.

 

I don't care how long this takes me.....from the posts I have read so far, the SLOW approach seems to work better for most folks than Cold Turkey or big, rapid cuts.

 

This is my first taper using 4 doses and liquid Ativan, so I would really appreciate some advice and feedback before I start out.

 

Thanks to all you brave and generous souls

 

I'd keep all doses even and bring them all down together.  Some people do feel a larger dose at night helps with sleep.

 

Also, 5-7% per week is a bit aggressive to begin.  Better to begin low, have immediate success, and build on it.  I usually advise 7.5% a month to begin.

[[ta...]]

Thanks so much for the tapering advice. I have liquid Ativan, so tapering in small doses won't  be so problamatic.

 

I'll take your advice and plan to taper 7.5% a month....slow success is more appealing than a fast failure.

 

Here is my question:

 

When I taper, do I taper a bit off each dose each day?? Or do I taper a bit from dose one 1st day, a bit from dose two second day, etc.

 

I am so grateful you mentioned that I was planning on tapering too fast.....you really saved me on that one.

 

Tango

 

 

[[...]]

Thanks so much for the tapering advice. I have liquid Ativan, so tapering in small doses won't  be so problamatic.

 

I'll take your advice and plan to taper 7.5% a month....slow success is more appealing than a fast failure.

 

Here is my question:

 

When I taper, do I taper a bit off each dose each day?? Or do I taper a bit from dose one 1st day, a bit from dose two second day, etc.

 

I am so grateful you mentioned that I was planning on tapering too fast.....you really saved me on that one.

 

Tango

 

You may find you can taper much more in a month, but it is good not to assume this as many cannot.  It is good to begin low and working your way up in a deliberate and methodical way, testing each level...or you can just stay low and take your time.

 

On which dose to cut, you can rotate through the doses one at a time, or another perhaps easier way is to take the full daily cut from the full daily dose before it gets split into four doses, then just divide what is left evenly into the four doses by eyeballing them even on the counter.  The thing you don't want to do is taper one dose at a time.

[[ta...]]

Now i am confused.

 

One of the other micro taper responders suggested that I taper one dose at a time. Until all four doses are the same.......and then begin to cut dose one again.

 

Yikes!!! There seem to be so many differing opinions....and I am really scared to make a mistake.

 

Help!!