Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[El...]]

You might try dosing like this...

 

6am - .125mgA+2.5mgV

Noon - .125mgA

6pm - .125mgA+2.5mgV

Bed - .125mgA

 

You have choices with A as to how to liquify.  In addition to alcohol/water it comes in a prescription liquid and can also be compounded.

I've been waiting for my doctor to get back into town to email hm about spreading out my doses as well as tapering the Ativan first as opposed to the Valium. You mention I have options with Ativan....I have a feeling he won't go for an MT I do myself with alcohol/water. As far as a compound prep what are my options? To have them do .125mg per ml? What would be the slowest rate to taper that?

 

I don't think compounders are restricted, although I've never had a drug compounded myself, but they should be able to make it any way that is needed.  The thing to do is make the liquid match the syringe you will be using.

 

For example, if you choose to use a 1ml syringe you can make cuts of .05ml without much eye strain and bother.  So the smallest cut you might need to make should be no less than .05ml.  At your dose you may need to cut as low as .002mg A for a MT.  A strength of 100ml=1mg A will work.  Each ml will contain .01mg A

 

As for taper rate, at your dose I'd recommend beginning with 7.5% a month which would be a .0025mg A daily cut.  This is slow and should give you immediate success to build on.

 

Ok, so let's say I do the compounded .125 mg of Ativan per 1 ml dosed 4x a day.... You said using the that I could make. 05ml cuts without much "eye strain". How often would I make these cuts to taper at your recommended 7.5% per month.

 

 

[[...]]

I don't think compounders are restricted, although I've never had a drug compounded myself, but they should be able to make it any way that is needed.  The thing to do is make the liquid match the syringe you will be using.

 

For example, if you choose to use a 1ml syringe you can make cuts of .05ml without much eye strain and bother.  So the smallest cut you might need to make should be no less than .05ml.  At your dose you may need to cut as low as .002mg A for a MT.  A strength of 100ml=1mg A will work.  Each ml will contain .01mg A

 

As for taper rate, at your dose I'd recommend beginning with 7.5% a month which would be a .0025mg A daily cut.  This is slow and should give you immediate success to build on.

 

Ok, so let's say I do the compounded .125 mg of Ativan per 1 ml dosed 4x a day.... You said using the that I could make. 05ml cuts without much "eye strain". How often would I make these cuts to taper at your recommended 7.5% per month.

 

What I said was to make a strength of .01mg per ml, not .125mg per ml.  .125mg will be way too strong and it will be hard to make accurate cuts and doses.

 

To get 7.5% a month you'd cut .0025mg a day, which would be .25ml a day.

[[be...]]

Hi. I posted this the other day but didn't get a response. I hope someone can help me out. Thank you. ((Hi Maya!!!)))

 

I plan to do a MT (dry or liquid val) at 15 mg of Val. How much do I need to drop every day by a reasonable amount, erring on the side of caution. I want those numbers to be no more than 10% a month. I know how to do a dry micro taper off K using a gram scale, but I don't know what to do with the Val. Also, it will be a progressive taper, so I will ask for #s.  Many thanks.

Bets

 

I answered this, Bets.

 

 

Hi:

 

I plan to do a MT (dry or liquid val) at 15 mg of Val. How much do I need to drop every day by a reasonable amount, erring on the side of caution. I want those numbers to be no more than 10% a month. I know how to do a dry micro taper off K using a gram scale, but I don't know what to do with the Val. Also, it will be a progressive taper, so I will ask for #s.  Many thanks.

Bets

 

If you are on 15mg V, 10% a month is 1.5mg a month.  The daily cut to do this would be .05mg.

 

I'm sorry SG. I must have missed that post. Thank you so much. You are an 

Bets

[[...]]

Gard,

I was just thinking of you! I am still struggling with stomach issues and sleep issues from my stomach waking me up. It's the 4th week of it and it is hard, but it has improved. Today I am on 17mg of V, a little over 30% of my dose. It is helping with interdose wd. I am hoping my c/o continues to go well. It is hard not tapering. How are you? I hope your new dosing is going well and you are feeling better. I also hope you found a good therapist. I will see my former therapist today. I think I have told you how he is always part of my care and life. I think of you often and hope things are well!

 

XO Maya 

 

 

Hi Gardener,

 

 

 

So sorry to hear about your stomach problems going on and on, Maya.    It does sound like your crossover is going pretty well. That's good news.

 

I'm still at 25mg L/day and cutting away at the X. Holding right now because symptoms are too rough, but plan to start up again soon, just at a slower pace. Slow and steady wins the race!

 

Gard

 

 

Hi Gardener,

 

    Why do you think your sx's became rough again? I HATE Xanax. I'm feeling so trapped right now, and so depressed to tears. I did change my dose to 5 doses now in hopes of stabilizing. But it is still up and down. I feel trapped like you did awhile back, symptoms remain when I hold, or if I go forward. There was a time while MT when I would cut and then stabilize in a couple days and feel a window. Now that I am lower in dose that doesn't seem to work anymore. I am afraid going forward is going to increase the risk of protracted withdrawal. And holding will bring on worse tolerance w/d. There are no solutions it seems. Right now I feel hopeless. Even though I know this too will pass. I am sorry to unload on you, you surely don't need it. You can just ignore this and I'll understand.  Rose  PS and thanks for being here.

[[pr...]]

Yes, I'm an engineer and not that great a speller.  The BB spell checker is constantly correcting me.

 

Google really makes these conversions easy.  dwt is "pennyweight" and is a little finer than grams.  So three decimal places would make that a good choice also...about the same as grains.  But I think the one to try is carat.  That one seems to truncate the least.  If that doesn't work go to either gn or dwt.  If they don't work go back to grams.  Stay away from ounces.

 

Not having enough decimal places will make all measurements less accurate.  So it will short you at times and at other times you'll get too much.

 

 

SG,

 

wow, you tapered from K almost as long as i have since my last rescue dose after the c/t. i am a bit jealous   well, you know what i mean. i think about it all the time how things would be for me if i had been able to do a slow taper. it's the one biggest thing that i really regret. may i ask what symptoms your dealing with now?

 

I regret not tapering properly too.  I wish I had known more and had had better guidance.  I currently have lighter versions of the same symptoms I've had all along - dp, cognition, flat flat emotions, apathy, lack of motivation, weird head sensations, broken sleep/insomnia.  I sleep 5-6 hours now, but it is still broken.  I usually get a solid three hour block each night, then a few hour-long sleep periods.  It's enough, but still not my normal.  In the spring of 2012 I began this strange compulsion to press my front teeth together and I have not been able to stop since.  I wear an invisalign guard that my dentist made for me and it does a fantastic job of suppressing this urge, but I have not been able to stop when the guard is out.  I even tried hypnosis.  I assume it is some kind of neurological damage, but it is not involuntary - I can stop doing it for a while with focus and effort.  And it goes away when I sleep.  It is annoying and of all my symptoms my fear is this one may never resolve, as over the past 43 months it has not improved at all, while all other symptoms have.

 

 

SG,

 

wow, you took 30 months to taper and still wish you'd of tapered properly? i can't believe how knowledgeable you are at all this math stuff and cuts and stuff. i so wish i had known about this forum and you when i was trying to taper. i did try to taper for 9 years and i even did The Ashton Manual taper not knowing what Ashton Manual was at the time. i also worked a lot with The Roadback.org and took a lot of their supplements like the tart cherries and i talked with them a lot but still couldn't taper properly or even knew that i should be slowing it way down. what a shame and my poor brain.

 

i am 43 months since the c/t and 39 months since the last rescue dose and still get broken sleep but sleep is finally returning. i literally started sleeping about 3 hours in a block last month so it will come for you. about the  strange compulsion to press your front teeth together -- i have some of those of what i call "tourettes" type of symptoms. i just have a feeling it has to do with the GABA receptor's and maybe even the subnuits. i have the  trichotillomania (hair pulling) symptom really badly and i can't stop no matter how much i want to.

 

my main symptoms have been the head/brain symptoms and i've been in such extreme fear that i blew out a portion of my brain and that the pulling, vibration, squeezing in this lower left corner will never ever stop. i felt something literally "blow" out in that corner on the 4th day of the detox. and it hasn't been the same since although just the last 3-4 days something has changed with the head symptoms but i can't explain it yet and too soon to tell. but i think it's probably a good thing.

 

may i ask what weird head sensations you have had? the head/brain stuff just has freaked me out from the beginning and even in the detox i started to get really fearful that ET's or aliens have implanted something inside my brain. and when i got home i was convinced that the doctor in the detox put something inside my brain. i mean, it was really bad for me. i am kinda over that now but there are times when i still get into those nonsensical paranoid thoughts so i am always interested in hearing about other's brain/head symptoms. but i do think your 'teeth' issue will resolve itself. if my head symptoms can ease up finally, than that symptom for you will ease up in time too.

[[El...]]

I don't think compounders are restricted, although I've never had a drug compounded myself, but they should be able to make it any way that is needed.  The thing to do is make the liquid match the syringe you will be using.

 

For example, if you choose to use a 1ml syringe you can make cuts of .05ml without much eye strain and bother.  So the smallest cut you might need to make should be no less than .05ml.  At your dose you may need to cut as low as .002mg A for a MT.  A strength of 100ml=1mg A will work.  Each ml will contain .01mg A

 

As for taper rate, at your dose I'd recommend beginning with 7.5% a month which would be a .0025mg A daily cut.  This is slow and should give you immediate success to build on.

 

Ok, so let's say I do the compounded .125 mg of Ativan per 1 ml dosed 4x a day.... You said using the that I could make. 05ml cuts without much "eye strain". How often would I make these cuts to taper at your recommended 7.5% per month.

 

 

What I said was to make a strength of .01mg per ml, not .125mg per ml.  .125mg will be way too strong and it will be hard to make accurate cuts and doses.

 

To get 7.5% a month you'd cut .0025mg a day, which would be .25ml a day.

 

Oh I am sorry for the confusion SG. I should have explained myself better. In order to do the MT using the 100ml=1mg I would have to prepare that myself. With the tablet and alcohol and water. I do not think my doctor will go for that. I guess technically a compounder could prepare a  1mg per 100ml solution but that would be a massive amount of material for just a month supply, like 3 litters? The cost would be insane. Anyway. From a compounding perspective it would have to be made in a smaller quantity. That's why I mentioned the .125 mg per 1 ml because if i split my tow does of Ativan into 4 it would be .125mg 4x per day. So if it was done this way, .125mg A per 1ML what are the smallest cuts I could make using the 1ml syringe? I'm just trying to be prepared as like I said, I do not believe my dr will be ok with me doing a self prepared micro taper. He will want me using a compounded solution. And like everyone says on these threads. I can't thank you enough. Wish there was something more I could do beyond just saying "thank you".

 

[[...]]

What I said was to make a strength of .01mg per ml, not .125mg per ml.  .125mg will be way too strong and it will be hard to make accurate cuts and doses.

 

To get 7.5% a month you'd cut .0025mg a day, which would be .25ml a day.

 

Oh I am sorry for the confusion SG. I should have explained myself better. In order to do the MT using the 100ml=1mg I would have to prepare that myself. With the tablet and alcohol and water. I do not think my doctor will go for that. I guess technically a compounder could prepare a  1mg per 100ml solution but that would be a massive amount of material for just a month supply, like 3 litters? The cost would be insane. Anyway. From a compounding perspective it would have to be made in a smaller quantity. That's why I mentioned the .125 mg per 1 ml because if i split my tow does of Ativan into 4 it would be .125mg 4x per day. So if it was done this way, .125mg A per 1ML what are the smallest cuts I could make using the 1ml syringe? I'm just trying to be prepared as like I said, I do not believe my dr will be ok with me doing a self prepared micro taper. He will want me using a compounded solution. And like everyone says on these threads. I can't thank you enough. Wish there was something more I could do beyond just saying "thank you".

 

Often what people do is only liquify a small portion of the dose and keep the rest in pill form to use less liquid, but in your case I think .5mg A is the smallest pill, so you would need to liquify all of the A, although you might be able to get away with liquifying half of it.  Have you checked with the pharmacy that they won't/can't do a .01mg/ml solution?  Another way to get the liquid down would be to up the strength.  For example, a .02mg/ml solution would cut the amount of liquid in half and a .03mg/ml solution would reduce it by two thirds.  You'd still get decent accuracy out of these strengths.

 

If you used a .125mg/ml solution you still could taper it, it just would not be as accurate.  The smallest cut you can possibly make on a 1ml syringe is .01ml (maybe).  This would be .00125mg A.  The accuracy would not be too great and it might be tedious for your eyes, but it would probably work.  It would be similar to the accuracy you'd get by filing a pill and weighing it on a .001g scale....actually a little better.

 

So none of this is black and white.  And of coarse you are also on V and crossing to all V would make all this easy.

[[...]]

I regret not tapering properly too.  I wish I had known more and had had better guidance.  I currently have lighter versions of the same symptoms I've had all along - dp, cognition, flat flat emotions, apathy, lack of motivation, weird head sensations, broken sleep/insomnia.  I sleep 5-6 hours now, but it is still broken.  I usually get a solid three hour block each night, then a few hour-long sleep periods.  It's enough, but still not my normal.  In the spring of 2012 I began this strange compulsion to press my front teeth together and I have not been able to stop since.  I wear an invisalign guard that my dentist made for me and it does a fantastic job of suppressing this urge, but I have not been able to stop when the guard is out.  I even tried hypnosis.  I assume it is some kind of neurological damage, but it is not involuntary - I can stop doing it for a while with focus and effort.  And it goes away when I sleep.  It is annoying and of all my symptoms my fear is this one may never resolve, as over the past 43 months it has not improved at all, while all other symptoms have.

 

SG,

 

wow, you took 30 months to taper and still wish you'd of tapered properly? i can't believe how knowledgeable you are at all this math stuff and cuts and stuff. i so wish i had known about this forum and you when i was trying to taper. i did try to taper for 9 years and i even did The Ashton Manual taper not knowing what Ashton Manual was at the time. i also worked a lot with The Roadback.org and took a lot of their supplements like the tart cherries and i talked with them a lot but still couldn't taper properly or even knew that i should be slowing it way down. what a shame and my poor brain.

 

i am 43 months since the c/t and 39 months since the last rescue dose and still get broken sleep but sleep is finally returning. i literally started sleeping about 3 hours in a block last month so it will come for you. about the  strange compulsion to press your front teeth together -- i have some of those of what i call "tourettes" type of symptoms. i just have a feeling it has to do with the GABA receptor's and maybe even the subnuits. i have the  trichotillomania (hair pulling) symptom really badly and i can't stop no matter how much i want to.

 

my main symptoms have been the head/brain symptoms and i've been in such extreme fear that i blew out a portion of my brain and that the pulling, vibration, squeezing in this lower left corner will never ever stop. i felt something literally "blow" out in that corner on the 4th day of the detox. and it hasn't been the same since although just the last 3-4 days something has changed with the head symptoms but i can't explain it yet and too soon to tell. but i think it's probably a good thing.

 

may i ask what weird head sensations you have had? the head/brain stuff just has freaked me out from the beginning and even in the detox i started to get really fearful that ET's or aliens have implanted something inside my brain. and when i got home i was convinced that the doctor in the detox put something inside my brain. i mean, it was really bad for me. i am kinda over that now but there are times when i still get into those nonsensical paranoid thoughts so i am always interested in hearing about other's brain/head symptoms. but i do think your 'teeth' issue will resolve itself. if my head symptoms can ease up finally, than that symptom for you will ease up in time too.

 

Yeah, I tapered for 30 months and it was still too fast.  I'm now 33 months free and still struggling.  It is shocking how exceedingly destructive these drugs are.  But I think I am ~6 months from being "out of the woods."  At least I hope.

 

What bothers me about the teeth symptom is it has not changed.  I began doing it at the end of my taper and it has not let up one bit in all this time.

 

My main symptoms have been head and brain too.  Always the dp and flatness...flat affect and a feeling of being detached from the world, like not completely part of it.  My head gets on and off uncomfortable, and this is still going on although not as bad.  Kind of a burning tight feeling in the upper left side of my head.  Sometimes it is more like a pulling feeling and moves to the back, but that one is about gone, which I'm very happy about as it is the one I dread most.  Some days it all goes away and is very comfortable.

 

My voice is also affected off and on.  My voice can get very strained and weak and it becomes difficult to express myself much at all.  That's a hard one to navigate at work.

 

I know what you mean about the paranoid thoughts.  I have mostly been successful in ignoring them and they are abating.  I cycle through these states regularly in about two days.  But I can tell it is all slowly coming right.  It is so much easier now than it was.

[[Be...]]

SG,

This is so good to hear, that you can be hopeful about "coming right" in the not too distant future. The head stuff is just wacky. I feel like I have migratory pressure in sinus, in brain, ears. If I reframe my experience, it helps. I just keep thinking, I have felt worse with the flu. It does however, get old. 

Thanks for your compassion and help here on BB.

Bennie

[[El...]]

What I said was to make a strength of .01mg per ml, not .125mg per ml.  .125mg will be way too strong and it will be hard to make accurate cuts and doses.

 

To get 7.5% a month you'd cut .0025mg a day, which would be .25ml a day.

 

Oh I am sorry for the confusion SG. I should have explained myself better. In order to do the MT using the 100ml=1mg I would have to prepare that myself. With the tablet and alcohol and water. I do not think my doctor will go for that. I guess technically a compounder could prepare a  1mg per 100ml solution but that would be a massive amount of material for just a month supply, like 3 litters? The cost would be insane. Anyway. From a compounding perspective it would have to be made in a smaller quantity. That's why I mentioned the .125 mg per 1 ml because if i split my tow does of Ativan into 4 it would be .125mg 4x per day. So if it was done this way, .125mg A per 1ML what are the smallest cuts I could make using the 1ml syringe? I'm just trying to be prepared as like I said, I do not believe my dr will be ok with me doing a self prepared micro taper. He will want me using a compounded solution. And like everyone says on these threads. I can't thank you enough. Wish there was something more I could do beyond just saying "thank you".

 

Often what people do is only liquify a small portion of the dose and keep the rest in pill form to use less liquid, but in your case I think .5mg A is the smallest pill, so you would need to liquify all of the A, although you might be able to get away with liquifying half of it.  Have you checked with the pharmacy that they won't/can't do a .01mg/ml solution?  Another way to get the liquid down would be to up the strength.  For example, a .02mg/ml solution would cut the amount of liquid in half and a .03mg/ml solution would reduce it by two thirds.  You'd still get decent accuracy out of these strengths.

 

If you used a .125mg/ml solution you still could taper it, it just would not be as accurate.  The smallest cut you can possibly make on a 1ml syringe is .01ml (maybe).  This would be .00125mg A.  The accuracy would not be too great and it might be tedious for your eyes, but it would probably work.  It would be similar to the accuracy you'd get by filing a pill and weighing it on a .001g scale....actually a little better.

 

So none of this is black and white.  And of coarse you are also on V and crossing to all V would make all this easy.

Thanks again SG. I wish I could finish the crossover to Valium it would be so much easier.  I was initially on just Ativan for chemo nausea. When I tried to stop it I got sick, hospitalized for four days  w severe heart rhythm issues. Drs blamed chemo and radiation. I found Ashton Manuel and begged to crossover to Valium. Things got much worse during crossover attempt and my heart rate was extremely high and unmanaged once again. I'm currently on three heart meds (only in my 30s!) At this point Drs said I need to be on these benzos for life. So crossing over is just not an option based on how poorly I reacted before. Soooo, have to deal with this as is. I am hoping to spread out my doses like was previously recommended on here.... but then I have to taper from both of these darn rat poisons.

[[pr...]]

I regret not tapering properly too.  I wish I had known more and had had better guidance.  I currently have lighter versions of the same symptoms I've had all along - dp, cognition, flat flat emotions, apathy, lack of motivation, weird head sensations, broken sleep/insomnia.  I sleep 5-6 hours now, but it is still broken.  I usually get a solid three hour block each night, then a few hour-long sleep periods.  It's enough, but still not my normal.  In the spring of 2012 I began this strange compulsion to press my front teeth together and I have not been able to stop since.  I wear an invisalign guard that my dentist made for me and it does a fantastic job of suppressing this urge, but I have not been able to stop when the guard is out.  I even tried hypnosis.  I assume it is some kind of neurological damage, but it is not involuntary - I can stop doing it for a while with focus and effort.  And it goes away when I sleep.  It is annoying and of all my symptoms my fear is this one may never resolve, as over the past 43 months it has not improved at all, while all other symptoms have.

 

SG,

 

wow, you took 30 months to taper and still wish you'd of tapered properly? i can't believe how knowledgeable you are at all this math stuff and cuts and stuff. i so wish i had known about this forum and you when i was trying to taper. i did try to taper for 9 years and i even did The Ashton Manual taper not knowing what Ashton Manual was at the time. i also worked a lot with The Roadback.org and took a lot of their supplements like the tart cherries and i talked with them a lot but still couldn't taper properly or even knew that i should be slowing it way down. what a shame and my poor brain.

 

i am 43 months since the c/t and 39 months since the last rescue dose and still get broken sleep but sleep is finally returning. i literally started sleeping about 3 hours in a block last month so it will come for you. about the  strange compulsion to press your front teeth together -- i have some of those of what i call "tourettes" type of symptoms. i just have a feeling it has to do with the GABA receptor's and maybe even the subnuits. i have the  trichotillomania (hair pulling) symptom really badly and i can't stop no matter how much i want to.

 

my main symptoms have been the head/brain symptoms and i've been in such extreme fear that i blew out a portion of my brain and that the pulling, vibration, squeezing in this lower left corner will never ever stop. i felt something literally "blow" out in that corner on the 4th day of the detox. and it hasn't been the same since although just the last 3-4 days something has changed with the head symptoms but i can't explain it yet and too soon to tell. but i think it's probably a good thing.

 

may i ask what weird head sensations you have had? the head/brain stuff just has freaked me out from the beginning and even in the detox i started to get really fearful that ET's or aliens have implanted something inside my brain. and when i got home i was convinced that the doctor in the detox put something inside my brain. i mean, it was really bad for me. i am kinda over that now but there are times when i still get into those nonsensical paranoid thoughts so i am always interested in hearing about other's brain/head symptoms. but i do think your 'teeth' issue will resolve itself. if my head symptoms can ease up finally, than that symptom for you will ease up in time too.

 

Yeah, I tapered for 30 months and it was still too fast.  I'm now 33 months free and still struggling.  It is shocking how exceedingly destructive these drugs are.  But I think I am ~6 months from being "out of the woods."  At least I hope.

 

What bothers me about the teeth symptom is it has not changed.  I began doing it at the end of my taper and it has not let up one bit in all this time.

 

My main symptoms have been head and brain too.  Always the dp and flatness...flat affect and a feeling of being detached from the world, like not completely part of it.  My head gets on and off uncomfortable, and this is still going on although not as bad.  Kind of a burning tight feeling in the upper left side of my head.  Sometimes it is more like a pulling feeling and moves to the back, but that one is about gone, which I'm very happy about as it is the one I dread most.  Some days it all goes away and is very comfortable.

 

My voice is also affected off and on.  My voice can get very strained and weak and it becomes difficult to express myself much at all.  That's a hard one to navigate at work.

 

I know what you mean about the paranoid thoughts.  I have mostly been successful in ignoring them and they are abating.  I cycle through these states regularly in about two days.  But I can tell it is all slowly coming right.  It is so much easier now than it was.

 

 

SG,

 

i just felt a change finally in some of the head symptoms about 3-4 days ago. that was literally 43 months without any change and i complained and complained about it here to my family and i had self talk that just was not doing me any good. i was really scared it was permanent because it hadn't changed. i would have to remember some of the other head symptoms that did go away and change to make myself want to even carry on here. so i am really happy that it finally has changed up a bit and i'm sure it will go back to how it was too for awhile. but i will tell you that some of these symptoms can just linger on and on and it never feels like it's changing. if my head symptoms can finally change up, i really believe that teeth symptom will go away at some point for you.

 

and i really think it's also a withdrawal symptom in and of itself to believe that a symptom is permanent.

 

i always say what this long time member who said she took about 20 years to heal said to me "the CNS is always secretly and silently healing"

 

i am reading "Anatomy of an Epidemic" right now, have you read it?

[[sh...]]

Gard,

I was just thinking of you! I am still struggling with stomach issues and sleep issues from my stomach waking me up. It's the 4th week of it and it is hard, but it has improved. Today I am on 17mg of V, a little over 30% of my dose. It is helping with interdose wd. I am hoping my c/o continues to go well. It is hard not tapering. How are you? I hope your new dosing is going well and you are feeling better. I also hope you found a good therapist. I will see my former therapist today. I think I have told you how he is always part of my care and life. I think of you often and hope things are well!

 

XO Maya 

 

 

Hi Gardener,

 

 

 

So sorry to hear about your stomach problems going on and on, Maya.    It does sound like your crossover is going pretty well. That's good news.

 

I'm still at 25mg L/day and cutting away at the X. Holding right now because symptoms are too rough, but plan to start up again soon, just at a slower pace. Slow and steady wins the race!

 

Gard

 

 

Hi Gardener,

 

    Why do you think your sx's became rough again? I HATE Xanax. I'm feeling so trapped right now, and so depressed to tears. I did change my dose to 5 doses now in hopes of stabilizing. But it is still up and down. I feel trapped like you did awhile back, symptoms remain when I hold, or if I go forward. There was a time while MT when I would cut and then stabilize in a couple days and feel a window. Now that I am lower in dose that doesn't seem to work anymore. I am afraid going forward is going to increase the risk of protracted withdrawal. And holding will bring on worse tolerance w/d. There are no solutions it seems. Right now I feel hopeless. Even though I know this too will pass. I am sorry to unload on you, you surely don't need it. You can just ignore this and I'll understand.  Rose  PS and thanks for being here.

 

Hey rdb!

 

So sorry you are going through a rough patch.  I had days that I felt like you are describing.  I had to lock myself in my room and didn't want my son to see me because I didn't feel myself.  That feeling like it will not end is the worst.  It will pass and the best thing to make it pass is to know it will without a doubt even though you feel it won't.  Hang in there,  it will get better.  It did for me.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[...]]

Gard,

I was just thinking of you! I am still struggling with stomach issues and sleep issues from my stomach waking me up. It's the 4th week of it and it is hard, but it has improved. Today I am on 17mg of V, a little over 30% of my dose. It is helping with interdose wd. I am hoping my c/o continues to go well. It is hard not tapering. How are you? I hope your new dosing is going well and you are feeling better. I also hope you found a good therapist. I will see my former therapist today. I think I have told you how he is always part of my care and life. I think of you often and hope things are well!

 

XO Maya 

 

 

Hi Gardener,

 

 

 

So sorry to hear about your stomach problems going on and on, Maya.    It does sound like your crossover is going pretty well. That's good news.

 

I'm still at 25mg L/day and cutting away at the X. Holding right now because symptoms are too rough, but plan to start up again soon, just at a slower pace. Slow and steady wins the race!

 

Gard

 

 

Hi Gardener,

 

    Why do you think your sx's became rough again? I HATE Xanax. I'm feeling so trapped right now, and so depressed to tears. I did change my dose to 5 doses now in hopes of stabilizing. But it is still up and down. I feel trapped like you did awhile back, symptoms remain when I hold, or if I go forward. There was a time while MT when I would cut and then stabilize in a couple days and feel a window. Now that I am lower in dose that doesn't seem to work anymore. I am afraid going forward is going to increase the risk of protracted withdrawal. And holding will bring on worse tolerance w/d. There are no solutions it seems. Right now I feel hopeless. Even though I know this too will pass. I am sorry to unload on you, you surely don't need it. You can just ignore this and I'll understand.  Rose  PS and thanks for being here.

 

Hey rdb!

 

So sorry you are going through a rough patch.  I had days that I felt like you are describing.  I had to lock myself in my room and didn't want my son to see me because I didn't feel myself.  That feeling like it will not end is the worst.  It will pass and the best thing to make it pass is to know it will without a doubt even though you feel it won't.  Hang in there,  it will get better.  It did for me.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Thank-you so much for responding Sharkey, I don't feel so alone now and I am feeling a glimmer of hope.  Rose

[[ga...]]

 

Hi Gardener,

 

    Why do you think your sx's became rough again? I HATE Xanax. I'm feeling so trapped right now, and so depressed to tears. I did change my dose to 5 doses now in hopes of stabilizing. But it is still up and down. I feel trapped like you did awhile back, symptoms remain when I hold, or if I go forward. There was a time while MT when I would cut and then stabilize in a couple days and feel a window. Now that I am lower in dose that doesn't seem to work anymore. I am afraid going forward is going to increase the risk of protracted withdrawal. And holding will bring on worse tolerance w/d. There are no solutions it seems. Right now I feel hopeless. Even though I know this too will pass. I am sorry to unload on you, you surely don't need it. You can just ignore this and I'll understand.  Rose  PS and thanks for being here.

 

Rose, I really wish I knew. It's possible it's not just the benzos. I also have an autoimmune disorder that relapses and remits. Could be that's aggravating this. Or it could be I am so low on the Xanax portion now that the cuts are more painful. I often wonder if when I measure a Xanax cut, I should be considering the total benzo dose (which is what I do now) or just the total Xanax dose. Not many people on the forum are half crossed over and trying to taper that way, so I'm kind of cutting my own path through the wilderness. I'm considering crossing further, but don't want to unless I have to.

 

I know the feeling of being trapped. That's what I feel every day. Trapped by this drug and vulnerable because of it and yet unable to escape it. Hopeless. But then I read the success stories and they say they felt the same way but now they're better. So I try to go one day at a time, which is not a strength of mine. Never has been; never will be. But I have to do it. I'm trying to do it with acceptance rather than kicking and screaming. I have been investigating mindful acceptance lately. I posted about it recently (look back a bit). Still investigating it, but think it may actually be the last, unbroken thread to hold onto at the end of my rope. All I need is that last thread that doesn't break to keep holding on even if it seems  .

 

Gard

 

P.S. I would never ignore you, Rose! At least not on purpose. What my benzo brain might miss.…that's another story.

[[ga...]]

 

Hey rdb!

 

So sorry you are going through a rough patch.  I had days that I felt like you are describing.  I had to lock myself in my room and didn't want my son to see me because I didn't feel myself.  That feeling like it will not end is the worst.  It will pass and the best thing to make it pass is to know it will without a doubt even though you feel it won't.  Hang in there,  it will get better.  It did for me.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Sharkey, I hide from my son in my room, too, because I don't want him to see me like this, and he's over 20! Once a parent, always a parent.

 

Gard

[[pr...]]

 

Hey rdb!

 

So sorry you are going through a rough patch.  I had days that I felt like you are describing.  I had to lock myself in my room and didn't want my son to see me because I didn't feel myself.  That feeling like it will not end is the worst.  It will pass and the best thing to make it pass is to know it will without a doubt even though you feel it won't.  Hang in there,  it will get better.  It did for me.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Sharkey, I hide from my son in my room, too, because I don't want him to see me like this, and he's over 20! Once a parent, always a parent.

 

Gard

 

i hid from my whole family for 2 1/2 years! it's something about that down regulated GABA makes me not want to be seen when i feel so not like myself and feel like a mal-functioned robot.

[[de...]]

good morning and would love some input..on mt

 

I have been mt now for over a yr started at like 3 mgs..and read on the k board someone wrote that starting at 1.357 was kinda high to start mt..was wondering would it be better since i am not at 2mgs yet to go back to cut and hold and try to get lower faster..and then go back to mt...cause at this dose i must say its a real pain to cut the 4 doses and only cut 2 days at a time as the dose changes with a hold after 2 days now..would love any input into this..cause if theres a way to cut and hold more than what i am crawling around at now..i am willing to go back and try it..

 

thanks in advance

 

deep

[[sh...]]

good morning and would love some input..on mt

 

I have been mt now for over a yr started at like 3 mgs..and read on the k board someone wrote that starting at 1.357 was kinda high to start mt..was wondering would it be better since i am not at 2mgs yet to go back to cut and hold and try to get lower faster..and then go back to mt...cause at this dose i must say its a real pain to cut the 4 doses and only cut 2 days at a time as the dose changes with a hold after 2 days now..would love any input into this..cause if theres a way to cut and hold more than what i am crawling around at now..i am willing to go back and try it..

 

thanks in advance

 

deep

 

You can MT as fast or as slow as you want.  If you want to try going faster then increase your daily cut rate.  The only benefit to cut an hold is you don't have to prepare your doses everyday.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[...]]

Often what people do is only liquify a small portion of the dose and keep the rest in pill form to use less liquid, but in your case I think .5mg A is the smallest pill, so you would need to liquify all of the A, although you might be able to get away with liquifying half of it.  Have you checked with the pharmacy that they won't/can't do a .01mg/ml solution?  Another way to get the liquid down would be to up the strength.  For example, a .02mg/ml solution would cut the amount of liquid in half and a .03mg/ml solution would reduce it by two thirds.  You'd still get decent accuracy out of these strengths.

 

If you used a .125mg/ml solution you still could taper it, it just would not be as accurate.  The smallest cut you can possibly make on a 1ml syringe is .01ml (maybe).  This would be .00125mg A.  The accuracy would not be too great and it might be tedious for your eyes, but it would probably work.  It would be similar to the accuracy you'd get by filing a pill and weighing it on a .001g scale....actually a little better.

 

So none of this is black and white.  And of coarse you are also on V and crossing to all V would make all this easy.

Thanks again SG. I wish I could finish the crossover to Valium it would be so much easier.  I was initially on just Ativan for chemo nausea. When I tried to stop it I got sick, hospitalized for four days  w severe heart rhythm issues. Drs blamed chemo and radiation. I found Ashton Manuel and begged to crossover to Valium. Things got much worse during crossover attempt and my heart rate was extremely high and unmanaged once again. I'm currently on three heart meds (only in my 30s!) At this point Drs said I need to be on these benzos for life. So crossing over is just not an option based on how poorly I reacted before. Soooo, have to deal with this as is. I am hoping to spread out my doses like was previously recommended on here.... but then I have to taper from both of these darn rat poisons.

 

Crossing to V can be improved by going slower and making smaller exchanges.  That might do the trick.  But you can also taper from where you are too.  Ativan can be tapered.

[[...]]

SG,

 

i just felt a change finally in some of the head symptoms about 3-4 days ago. that was literally 43 months without any change and i complained and complained about it here to my family and i had self talk that just was not doing me any good. i was really scared it was permanent because it hadn't changed. i would have to remember some of the other head symptoms that did go away and change to make myself want to even carry on here. so i am really happy that it finally has changed up a bit and i'm sure it will go back to how it was too for awhile. but i will tell you that some of these symptoms can just linger on and on and it never feels like it's changing. if my head symptoms can finally change up, i really believe that teeth symptom will go away at some point for you.

 

and i really think it's also a withdrawal symptom in and of itself to believe that a symptom is permanent.

 

i always say what this long time member who said she took about 20 years to heal said to me "the CNS is always secretly and silently healing"

 

i am reading "Anatomy of an Epidemic" right now, have you read it?

 

Yes, I read that a few months ago.  A must-read for anyone taking or thinking of taking psych drugs.  Psychiatry is not what it appears.

 

I'm glad you are seeing some movement on your head symptoms and glad to hear you think my teeth symptom will go away.  I could do without that one.

[[...]]

good morning and would love some input..on mt

 

I have been mt now for over a yr started at like 3 mgs..and read on the k board someone wrote that starting at 1.357 was kinda high to start mt..was wondering would it be better since i am not at 2mgs yet to go back to cut and hold and try to get lower faster..and then go back to mt...cause at this dose i must say its a real pain to cut the 4 doses and only cut 2 days at a time as the dose changes with a hold after 2 days now..would love any input into this..cause if theres a way to cut and hold more than what i am crawling around at now..i am willing to go back and try it..

 

thanks in advance

 

deep

 

You can MT as fast or as slow as you want.  If you want to try going faster then increase your daily cut rate.  The only benefit to cut an hold is you don't have to prepare your doses everyday.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

[[Ma...]]

SG,

I switched 2mg every other day and then am now switching 3mg every other day. Tomorrow I will be at 1.75mg K and 20mg V. That is 36% of my dose. I know we said I would c/o 1mg and then go from there. I am still not noticing a difference really. If anything I feel a little better. It also is helping with my interdose wd. Should I hold for a week or two at 20mgs so the active metabolites can build up and I can know for sure how I will tolerate V? I thought we had discussed something like that before, but I might have misunderstood. I am also tired and foggy. I am thinking that I can tolerate V based on how it's going. As I am sure you know, I want to do a full c/o, if possible, or at least cross 2mgs of K to V. Also in Ashton's schedule of 3mg V to 60mg V, she starts cutting after week 2, which is after 20mg of V. Not messing up my c/o is what is most important to me. If I feel well enough, I would like to try cutting a little each week. Do you think that makes sense? Ashton felt that it was ok to cut in higher doses and that is was helpful so the person wasn't on such a high dose. She doesn't elaborate. She starts crossing .5mg K for 5mg V starting in week 3. I am not saying I will do that big of a cut and I definitely wouldn't start out that big. I don't want to be too ambitious and mess things up. Also I will have crossed to 20mg of V in 13 days. That is a little faster than Ashton because I started at 2.75mg not 3mg. Also if I continue to cross .15mg K for 3mg V every other day, I will be going faster than Ashton. I don't know if I should go back to 2mg. I tried adding to all 3 doses and it worked out. I am not willing to cross more than every other day. I really appreciate all your help!

 

XO Maya

[[Ma...]]

Gard,

I was just thinking of you! I am still struggling with stomach issues and sleep issues from my stomach waking me up. It's the 4th week of it and it is hard, but it has improved. Today I am on 17mg of V, a little over 30% of my dose. It is helping with interdose wd. I am hoping my c/o continues to go well. It is hard not tapering. How are you? I hope your new dosing is going well and you are feeling better. I also hope you found a good therapist. I will see my former therapist today. I think I have told you how he is always part of my care and life. I think of you often and hope things are well!

 

XO Maya 

 

So sorry to hear about your stomach problems going on and on, Maya.    It does sound like your crossover is going pretty well. That's good news.

 

I'm still at 25mg L/day and cutting away at the X. Holding right now because symptoms are too rough, but plan to start up again soon, just at a slower pace. Slow and steady wins the race!

 

Gard

Gard,

Thanks! They are starting to get better. It has been hard! Our stomach's are our second brain. They have GABA receptors, neurotransmitters etc. It is not surprising so many have stomach problems while tapering. I hope it gets a lot better soon. My C/O, at least so far, is going very well. It is helping with interdose wd. I haven't really felt different otherwise. My bf says I seem better. My stomach issues aren't as bad, but I don't know if that has anything to do with V. It definitely hasn't made them worse. Hopefully, it will be kinder to me, especially my stomach.

 

I'm sorry you are having rough sxs. That is smart to hold and then go slower. I hope you feel better soon!

 

Also I saw you post something about acceptance. Radical acceptance has probably been the most important DBT skill to me, especially during tapering. It takes practice, but you will get there. I hope therapy wise everything is going well!

 

XO Maya 

 

rhb,

I am so sorry you are having a rough time! I would hold for a little longer and see if it helps. I know all to well the fear of tolerance wd. From what I have read, that shouldn't happen before two months. I wish I could be of more help. I am really hoping you feel better! I know it's hard, but you will feel better! Sending you big hugs!

 

Deep,

I responded to you on KK. I hope you find what works for you!

 

[[de...]]

maya thank you so much for getting back to me on the k board..i am just so confused on what to do..i dont want to mess up a mt that is working for me..yet i need to get lower..and i dont know if someone can taper .001 alternating doses when they are lower..if i knew i could just keep that pace all the way off then it wouldnt be so bad and i could mentally deal with it..but with being at almost 2mgs now its a long way at this pace..

 

i hope some of the people get back to me and let me know at what mg they started their mt ..since you said you dont know of anyone who started mt at the high dose that i did..

 

thanks for the help my friend

 

deep

[[...]]

SG,

I switched 2mg every other day and then am now switching 3mg every other day. Tomorrow I will be at 1.75mg K and 20mg V. That is 36% of my dose. I know we said I would c/o 1mg and then go from there. I am still not noticing a difference really. If anything I feel a little better. It also is helping with my interdose wd. Should I hold for a week or two at 20mgs so the active metabolites can build up and I can know for sure how I will tolerate V? I thought we had discussed something like that before, but I might have misunderstood. I am also tired and foggy. I am thinking that I can tolerate V based on how it's going. As I am sure you know, I want to do a full c/o, if possible, or at least cross 2mgs of K to V. Also in Ashton's schedule of 3mg V to 60mg V, she starts cutting after week 2, which is after 20mg of V. Not messing up my c/o is what is most important to me. If I feel well enough, I would like to try cutting a little each week. Do you think that makes sense? Ashton felt that it was ok to cut in higher doses and that is was helpful so the person wasn't on such a high dose. She doesn't elaborate. She starts crossing .5mg K for 5mg V starting in week 3. I am not saying I will do that big of a cut and I definitely wouldn't start out that big. I don't want to be too ambitious and mess things up. Also I will have crossed to 20mg of V in 13 days. That is a little faster than Ashton because I started at 2.75mg not 3mg. Also if I continue to cross .15mg K for 3mg V every other day, I will be going faster than Ashton. I don't know if I should go back to 2mg. I tried adding to all 3 doses and it worked out. I am not willing to cross more than every other day. I really appreciate all your help!

 

XO Maya

 

The magic words here are, "I am still not noticing a difference really. If anything I feel a little better. It also is helping with my interdose wd."  I love it.  I'd just keep going as you are.  Go by how you feel, and you seem to feel okay.

 

I would take Ashton with a grain of salt.  That is generic advice not specific to your case.  You are doing well, don't change that.  I do not know why she advises cutting during crossing and am not inclined to follow that blindly.

 

If you feel you want to hold to assess the V, that won't do any harm and may help you feel more confident in it, but otherwise I'd just keep going.  I see no reason to think you won't be able to cross it all and that this easy crossing won't continue.  This is going very well.