Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[my...]]

I've decided to devote this morning to understanding the gram scale!! 

 

OK, let's see:

I told you the ounce mode has 4 places after the decimal point.

For gn - grains - two decimal places

For ct - three decimal places

For ozt - four d.p.

For grams - three d.p.

 

You know, I just tried to figure out how I would measure my next cut and it begins to get tricky.

 

I went back and weighed the dissolvable tabs, since they are .125 mg tabs and perhaps easier to work with but 1) they crumble easily and degrade more quickly and 2) they are a different generic and although I have used them all along with my .5`s and now half of those, I'm leary of switching an entire dose to the dissolvable tabs...different formula, and different brand generic.  Sorta scary...

 

Any thoughts on the latter or overall?  We are keeping you really busy, SG!!!  So great!

Thanks for all,

Mana 

[[...]]

Hi:

 

I plan to do a MT (dry or liquid val) at 15 mg of Val. How much do I need to drop every day by a reasonable amount, erring on the side of caution. I want those numbers to be no more than 10% a month. I know how to do a dry micro taper off K using a gram scale, but I don't know what to do with the Val. Also, it will be a progressive taper, so I will ask for #s.  Many thanks.

Bets

 

If you are on 15mg V, 10% a month is 1.5mg a month.  The daily cut to do this would be .05mg.

[[my...]]

BTW, SG, how did you accomplish your own taper off 4 mg K?  I can see over what period, but what method did you use, if not the gram scale?  Did you cut and hold by sight the whole way (somehow that doesn't jive with your precision thinking but maybe....) or do a liquid titration?  Just curious as you are our resident mathematician.

[[St...]]

thanks SG57....I feel better now....

[[...]]

I've decided to devote this morning to understanding the gram scale!! 

 

OK, let's see:

I told you the ounce mode has 4 places after the decimal point.

For gn - grains - two decimal places

For ct - three decimal places

For ozt - four d.p.

For grams - three d.p.

 

You know, I just tried to figure out how I would measure my next cut and it begins to get tricky.

 

I went back and weighed the dissolvable tabs, since they are .125 mg tabs and perhaps easier to work with but 1) they crumble easily and degrade more quickly and 2) they are a different generic and although I have used them all along with my .5`s and now half of those, I'm leary of switching an entire dose to the dissolvable tabs...different formula, and different brand generic.  Sorta scary...

 

Any thoughts on the latter or overall?  We are keeping you really busy, SG!!!  So great!

Thanks for all,

Mana 

 

So gram will read down to .003mg K, gn will read down to .0019mg K and carat (ct) will read down to .0006mg K.  Troy ounce (ozt) is even worse than ounces.  There is one missing....dwt.

 

It looks like ct is the one that shows the most information.  1g=5ct so ct is five times finer yet displays the same number of decimal places.  That's a big leap, but I wonder if it will be too jumpy to work with.

 

Switching brands or even product very often is felt, so I'd be leery too.  But then again, it is a one-time thing.

[[de...]]

good morning

 

I need some math help please just for my own knowledge

 

how much am i cutting as in % wise if i am tapering .001 every other day off a 1mg tab taking 4 doses a day .88 .88 .87 .87 weight avg. being .170..i cant do the math but would like to know if i am at somewhere between 5 to 10 percent every 2 weeks if not then i want to up the cut rate if i can and tolerate it.

 

when i go to the doc next week I am going to ask for the .5mgs and start to cut them..and see where i end up at.

 

SG..i know you said i would be able to taper everyday .001 for awhile when i get the .5mgs tabs..why is that?? and how can i do it on them but not on the 1 mg tabs? would i be cutting more or would it be the same amount since the tabs are half the size?

 

thanks in advance for any help

 

deep

 

Hi Deep, The .5mg will be an improvement.  I'm glad you plan to do that.  You are able to taper .001g every other day with 1mg tabs and .5mg tabs have half as much K in them yet they weigh about the same, so cutting .001g every day on a .5mg tab is the same thing as cutting .001g every other day on a 1mg tab.  You'd be cutting the same amount, but with more accuracy.

 

As for your percent question, we don't need to know the mgs of K to figure percent.  Your total daily pill weight is .350g (.088g+.088g+.087g+.087g) and you are cutting .001g every other day.  That is .015g a month which is 4.3% a month or .14% a day.  This is quite slow, but as always you want to stay within what you can tolerate and keep symptoms from increasing.

SG..i dont really feel any different at the moment then before i started tapering..so how can i speed this up some cause that is such a low percentage...i think i can try more so should i try like a cut every day for so many days and then hold..what would i have to do to get to like 6 or 7 % a month would that be better cause i know they say between 5 to 10 percent and that would be in the middle so how would i figure out what the cut would be and how would you recommend doing the cuts?

 

thanks again for your help

 

deep

[[...]]

Hi Deep, The .5mg will be an improvement.  I'm glad you plan to do that.  You are able to taper .001g every other day with 1mg tabs and .5mg tabs have half as much K in them yet they weigh about the same, so cutting .001g every day on a .5mg tab is the same thing as cutting .001g every other day on a 1mg tab.  You'd be cutting the same amount, but with more accuracy.

 

As for your percent question, we don't need to know the mgs of K to figure percent.  Your total daily pill weight is .350g (.088g+.088g+.087g+.087g) and you are cutting .001g every other day.  That is .015g a month which is 4.3% a month or .14% a day.  This is quite slow, but as always you want to stay within what you can tolerate and keep symptoms from increasing.

SG..i dont really feel any different at the moment then before i started tapering..so how can i speed this up some cause that is such a low percentage...i think i can try more so should i try like a cut every day for so many days and then hold..what would i have to do to get to like 6 or 7 % a month would that be better cause i know they say between 5 to 10 percent and that would be in the middle so how would i figure out what the cut would be and how would you recommend doing the cuts?

 

thanks again for your help

 

deep

 

I would creep up slowly looking for the most efficient cut.  It helps to think of it as the number of cuts per month.  Right now you cut 15 times a month and it is 4.3%.  You can think about upping that by some amount.  If you increased to 5% it would be 17 cuts a month.  6% would be 21 cuts a month.  7% would be 24 cuts a month.  You could decide on one and then just spread those cuts evenly across the month.

 

For example, if you picked 6% that is 21 cuts a month, which s close to cutting .001g for two days, then hold a day...C/C/H.

[[...]]

BTW, SG, how did you accomplish your own taper off 4 mg K?  I can see over what period, but what method did you use, if not the gram scale?  Did you cut and hold by sight the whole way (somehow that doesn't jive with your precision thinking but maybe....) or do a liquid titration?  Just curious as you are our resident mathematician.

 

Ahh, my story is not good.  Without going into the details, I basically did not learn about proper tapering until it was too late.  I got into the weeds and decided to press on to zero, which was not smart and has not turned out well...so far.  If I had it to do again I would taper very differently.

[[ga...]]

BTW, SG, how did you accomplish your own taper off 4 mg K?  I can see over what period, but what method did you use, if not the gram scale?  Did you cut and hold by sight the whole way (somehow that doesn't jive with your precision thinking but maybe....) or do a liquid titration?  Just curious as you are our resident mathematician.

 

Ahh, my story is not good.  Without going into the details, I basically did not learn about proper tapering until it was too late.  I got into the weeds and decided to press on to zero, which was not smart and has not turned out well...so far.  If I had it to do again I would taper very differently.

 

 

Thank you for being such a help to all of us. (And pardon my hokey emoticon.)

[[my...]]

So sorry to hear that, SG...wish there was something we could do for you to "pay you back"...seriously....do you realize how valuable your contributions are here??  I hope you do!!!!

 

Let's see..you asked about the dwt mode...OK there are three decimal places after the .

 

So, I think I'll stick with the enteric coated pieces of the .5 mg tabs.  Cut in half to equal .25 mg and shave off from there.  The only remaining question is whether to measure in grams or???

 

When you mentioned too rough or that the decimal places didn't extend out far enough...would that "short" me or give me too much benzo? Actually I don't mind being shorted...I am doing pretty well now and it all evens out over a few days since I am splitting .5 mg tabs...taking three .5 mg and making enough halves for two days then shaving off to get the lower doses.  At some point it might be too big an amount to taper from but for now, if I can stick with the Actavis brand I'd be happy.

 

Thanks again, SG.  You are a complete sweetheart -- and a good speller too!!    (you caught my leary which should have been leery)  And I'm the English major and you are probably either math or engineering....right??

 

mana      :smitten:

 

 

[[...]]

So sorry to hear that, SG...wish there was something we could do for you to "pay you back"...seriously....do you realize how valuable your contributions are here??  I hope you do!!!!

 

Let's see..you asked about the dwt mode...OK there are three decimal places after the .

 

So, I think I'll stick with the enteric coated pieces of the .5 mg tabs.  Cut in half to equal .25 mg and shave off from there.  The only remaining question is whether to measure in grams or???

 

When you mentioned too rough or that the decimal places didn't extend out far enough...would that "short" me or give me too much benzo? Actually I don't mind being shorted...I am doing pretty well now and it all evens out over a few days since I am splitting .5 mg tabs...taking three .5 mg and making enough halves for two days then shaving off to get the lower doses.  At some point it might be too big an amount to taper from but for now, if I can stick with the Actavis brand I'd be happy.

 

Thanks again, SG.  You are a complete sweetheart -- and a good speller too!!    (you caught my leary which should have been leery)  And I'm the English major and you are probably either math or engineering....right??

 

mana      :smitten:

 

Yes, I'm an engineer and not that great a speller.  The BB spell checker is constantly correcting me.

 

Google really makes these conversions easy.  dwt is "pennyweight" and is a little finer than grams.  So three decimal places would make that a good choice also...about the same as grains.  But I think the one to try is carat.  That one seems to truncate the least.  If that doesn't work go to either gn or dwt.  If they don't work go back to grams.  Stay away from ounces.

 

Not having enough decimal places will make all measurements less accurate.  So it will short you at times and at other times you'll get too much.

[[Sh...]]

So sorry to hear that, SG...wish there was something we could do for you to "pay you back"...seriously....do you realize how valuable your contributions are here??  I hope you do!!!!

 

Let's see..you asked about the dwt mode...OK there are three decimal places after the .

 

So, I think I'll stick with the enteric coated pieces of the .5 mg tabs.  Cut in half to equal .25 mg and shave off from there.  The only remaining question is whether to measure in grams or???

 

When you mentioned too rough or that the decimal places didn't extend out far enough...would that "short" me or give me too much benzo? Actually I don't mind being shorted...I am doing pretty well now and it all evens out over a few days since I am splitting .5 mg tabs...taking three .5 mg and making enough halves for two days then shaving off to get the lower doses.  At some point it might be too big an amount to taper from but for now, if I can stick with the Actavis brand I'd be happy.

 

Thanks again, SG.  You are a complete sweetheart -- and a good speller too!!    (you caught my leary which should have been leery)  And I'm the English major and you are probably either math or engineering....right??

 

mana      :smitten:

 

Yes, I'm an engineer and not that great a speller.  The BB spell checker is constantly correcting me.

 

Google really makes these conversions easy.  dwt is "pennyweight" and is a little finer than grams.  So three decimal places would make that a good choice also...about the same as grains.  But I think the one to try is carat.  That one seems to truncate the least.  If that doesn't work go to either gn or dwt.  If they don't work go back to grams.  Stay away from ounces.

 

Not having enough decimal places will make all measurements less accurate.  So it will short you at times and at other times you'll get too much.

  OMG.....screaming jets over my head! I have to agree that SG is amazing!  I will ask the math questions "just in time" as I am sooo challenged. But...I can spell....most days of the week!!  LOL  --  Seriously, I wish the benzo battle weren't so hard on you SG.  That totally sucks.  Hugs...even though I sense you may not be the sentimental / emotional type. Shaani 

[[El...]]

You might try dosing like this...

 

6am - .125mgA+2.5mgV

Noon - .125mgA

6pm - .125mgA+2.5mgV

Bed - .125mgA

 

You have choices with A as to how to liquify.  In addition to alcohol/water it comes in a prescription liquid and can also be compounded.

I've been waiting for my doctor to get back into town to email hm about spreading out my doses as well as tapering the Ativan first as opposed to the Valium. You mention I have options with Ativan....I have a feeling he won't go for an MT I do myself with alcohol/water. As far as a compound prep what are my options? To have them do .125mg per ml? What would be the slowest rate to taper that?

[[pr...]]

So sorry to hear that, SG...wish there was something we could do for you to "pay you back"...seriously....do you realize how valuable your contributions are here??  I hope you do!!!!

 

Let's see..you asked about the dwt mode...OK there are three decimal places after the .

 

So, I think I'll stick with the enteric coated pieces of the .5 mg tabs.  Cut in half to equal .25 mg and shave off from there.  The only remaining question is whether to measure in grams or???

 

When you mentioned too rough or that the decimal places didn't extend out far enough...would that "short" me or give me too much benzo? Actually I don't mind being shorted...I am doing pretty well now and it all evens out over a few days since I am splitting .5 mg tabs...taking three .5 mg and making enough halves for two days then shaving off to get the lower doses.  At some point it might be too big an amount to taper from but for now, if I can stick with the Actavis brand I'd be happy.

 

Thanks again, SG.  You are a complete sweetheart -- and a good speller too!!    (you caught my leary which should have been leery)  And I'm the English major and you are probably either math or engineering....right??

 

mana      :smitten:

 

Yes, I'm an engineer and not that great a speller.  The BB spell checker is constantly correcting me.

 

Google really makes these conversions easy.  dwt is "pennyweight" and is a little finer than grams.  So three decimal places would make that a good choice also...about the same as grains.  But I think the one to try is carat.  That one seems to truncate the least.  If that doesn't work go to either gn or dwt.  If they don't work go back to grams.  Stay away from ounces.

 

Not having enough decimal places will make all measurements less accurate.  So it will short you at times and at other times you'll get too much.

 

 

SG,

 

wow, you tapered from K almost as long as i have since my last rescue dose after the c/t. i am a bit jealous   well, you know what i mean. i think about it all the time how things would be for me if i had been able to do a slow taper. it's the one biggest thing that i really regret. may i ask what symptoms your dealing with now?

[[de...]]

SG..thank you once again for you quick and as always accurate math..i can never figure it out or even figure out where i am in mgs..lol..i am business mathy but not this kind of math with the conversions and it gets frustrating so your help is invaluable.

I think i will try to do the c/c/h and see how it goes and it if bites me then i will back off and slow down to another cut..now the question is i will be at 2mg you figured by the end of the month which means i will be switching to the .5s..should i wait til i do that change and see how i tolerate the new pill first or just start now and go with it and have my body already adjusted to the new cutting pattern?

 

thanks again for always being here

 

deep

[[...]]

You might try dosing like this...

 

6am - .125mgA+2.5mgV

Noon - .125mgA

6pm - .125mgA+2.5mgV

Bed - .125mgA

 

You have choices with A as to how to liquify.  In addition to alcohol/water it comes in a prescription liquid and can also be compounded.

I've been waiting for my doctor to get back into town to email hm about spreading out my doses as well as tapering the Ativan first as opposed to the Valium. You mention I have options with Ativan....I have a feeling he won't go for an MT I do myself with alcohol/water. As far as a compound prep what are my options? To have them do .125mg per ml? What would be the slowest rate to taper that?

 

I don't think compounders are restricted, although I've never had a drug compounded myself, but they should be able to make it any way that is needed.  The thing to do is make the liquid match the syringe you will be using.

 

For example, if you choose to use a 1ml syringe you can make cuts of .05ml without much eye strain and bother.  So the smallest cut you might need to make should be no less than .05ml.  At your dose you may need to cut as low as .002mg A for a MT.  A strength of 100ml=1mg A will work.  Each ml will contain .01mg A

 

As for taper rate, at your dose I'd recommend beginning with 7.5% a month which would be a .0025mg A daily cut.  This is slow and should give you immediate success to build on.

[[...]]

Yes, I'm an engineer and not that great a speller.  The BB spell checker is constantly correcting me.

 

Google really makes these conversions easy.  dwt is "pennyweight" and is a little finer than grams.  So three decimal places would make that a good choice also...about the same as grains.  But I think the one to try is carat.  That one seems to truncate the least.  If that doesn't work go to either gn or dwt.  If they don't work go back to grams.  Stay away from ounces.

 

Not having enough decimal places will make all measurements less accurate.  So it will short you at times and at other times you'll get too much.

 

 

SG,

 

wow, you tapered from K almost as long as i have since my last rescue dose after the c/t. i am a bit jealous   well, you know what i mean. i think about it all the time how things would be for me if i had been able to do a slow taper. it's the one biggest thing that i really regret. may i ask what symptoms your dealing with now?

 

I regret not tapering properly too.  I wish I had known more and had had better guidance.  I currently have lighter versions of the same symptoms I've had all along - dp, cognition, flat flat emotions, apathy, lack of motivation, weird head sensations, broken sleep/insomnia.  I sleep 5-6 hours now, but it is still broken.  I usually get a solid three hour block each night, then a few hour-long sleep periods.  It's enough, but still not my normal.  In the spring of 2012 I began this strange compulsion to press my front teeth together and I have not been able to stop since.  I wear an invisalign guard that my dentist made for me and it does a fantastic job of suppressing this urge, but I have not been able to stop when the guard is out.  I even tried hypnosis.  I assume it is some kind of neurological damage, but it is not involuntary - I can stop doing it for a while with focus and effort.  And it goes away when I sleep.  It is annoying and of all my symptoms my fear is this one may never resolve, as over the past 43 months it has not improved at all, while all other symptoms have.

[[...]]

SG..thank you once again for you quick and as always accurate math..i can never figure it out or even figure out where i am in mgs..lol..i am business mathy but not this kind of math with the conversions and it gets frustrating so your help is invaluable.

I think i will try to do the c/c/h and see how it goes and it if bites me then i will back off and slow down to another cut..now the question is i will be at 2mg you figured by the end of the month which means i will be switching to the .5s..should i wait til i do that change and see how i tolerate the new pill first or just start now and go with it and have my body already adjusted to the new cutting pattern?

 

thanks again for always being here

 

deep

 

If you feel ready now I'd go ahead and begin the C/C/H cutting pattern.  When you change from 1mg to .5mg pills you might want to hold at that time just to be safe.  It just seems very common that brand - and even batch - changes are felt.

[[Ma...]]

SG,

I am so sorry you still suffering. I am glad that your sxs keep getting lighter. I hope they go away for good soon. I think the thing with your teeth will stop once you are healed. I looked into hypnosis to help with benzo wd and it is only helpful for psychological addictions. It doesn't really help with the physical aspects. I have NO psychological addiction to Benzos. I do find sleep hypnosis helpful. I have found while tapering that I was clenching my teeth and having sensations in my teeth. It has not happened that recently. I hope your teeth issue resolves itself soon. I think it's so amazing how you offer so much guidance to us all! I truly appreciate it, from the bottom of my heart, all that you have done for me and so many others. It is a very kind thing you do sharing your knowledge and helping others not make tapering mistakes. I wish I could repay you in some way. I truly would be lost without you. Thank you so much!

[[ga...]]

To all suffering a lot of symptoms in spite of MT or for whatever reason, I learned about this book, You Are Not Your Pain, on another board and downloaded it through the amazon audible app. It also comes in print form. The voice on the audible (calm, British female) is relaxing. I'm fussy about books read aloud, so I was surprised that I like this one.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/125005267X?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

 

I haven't gotten far into it yet. Still listening to the explanations and science behind the brain-calming techniques they teach. But I am encouraged that there may really be something to this. It is about mindfulness meditation, written by 2 people who suffer from chronic pain. Very interesting so far about how the brain perceives and interprets pain (more complicated than you would think) and how mindfulness meditation actually changes how the brain works and how it turns down the volume in parts of the brain.

 

From what I have heard so far, it is an 8 week course requiring 2 short sessions of practice per day to learn the skill.

 

The book form comes with a meditation CD. Seems there is also a British version under a different title that is sold on the UK site.

 

I have read another book on mindfulness called The Happiness Trap (short and easy read). I've also tried reading a few others from our library that were just too wordy and confusing for my cog fog. I really like The Happiness Trap for what a good teacher the writer is and how he gives you little helps right from the beginning that keep you going as you get into the deeper stuff. But, right now, I need something to be read aloud to me and I need the focus on pain, so I put The Happiness Trap aside and am listing to this audible book. It's very nice to hear a calm, pleasant voice, from someone who lives with chronic pain, talking about hope. Hope is what I really need right now.

 

I wish you all peace and hope.

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

SG,

I am so sorry you still suffering. I am glad that your sxs keep getting lighter. I hope they go away for good soon. I think the thing with your teeth will stop once you are healed. I looked into hypnosis to help with benzo wd and it is only helpful for psychological addictions. It doesn't really help with the physical aspects. I have NO psychological addiction to Benzos. I do find sleep hypnosis helpful. I have found while tapering that I was clenching my teeth and having sensations in my teeth. It has not happened that recently. I hope your teeth issue resolves itself soon. I think it's so amazing how you offer so much guidance to us all! I truly appreciate it, from the bottom of my heart, all that you have done for me and so many others. It is a very kind thing you do sharing your knowledge and helping others not make tapering mistakes. I wish I could repay you in some way. I truly would be lost without you. Thank you so much!

 

I was just thinking about you Maya. How are you doing?

 

Gard

[[Ma...]]

Gard,

I was just thinking of you! I am still struggling with stomach issues and sleep issues from my stomach waking me up. It's the 4th week of it and it is hard, but it has improved. Today I am on 17mg of V, a little over 30% of my dose. It is helping with interdose wd. I am hoping my c/o continues to go well. It is hard not tapering. How are you? I hope your new dosing is going well and you are feeling better. I also hope you found a good therapist. I will see my former therapist today. I think I have told you how he is always part of my care and life. I think of you often and hope things are well!

 

XO Maya 

[[be...]]

Hi. I posted this the other day but didn't get a response. I hope someone can help me out. Thank you. ((Hi Maya!!!)))

 

I plan to do a MT (dry or liquid val) at 15 mg of Val. How much do I need to drop every day by a reasonable amount, erring on the side of caution. I want those numbers to be no more than 10% a month. I know how to do a dry micro taper off K using a gram scale, but I don't know what to do with the Val. Also, it will be a progressive taper, so I will ask for #s.  Many thanks.

Bets

[[...]]

Hi. I posted this the other day but didn't get a response. I hope someone can help me out. Thank you. ((Hi Maya!!!)))

 

I plan to do a MT (dry or liquid val) at 15 mg of Val. How much do I need to drop every day by a reasonable amount, erring on the side of caution. I want those numbers to be no more than 10% a month. I know how to do a dry micro taper off K using a gram scale, but I don't know what to do with the Val. Also, it will be a progressive taper, so I will ask for #s.  Many thanks.

Bets

 

I answered this, Bets.

 

 

Hi:

 

I plan to do a MT (dry or liquid val) at 15 mg of Val. How much do I need to drop every day by a reasonable amount, erring on the side of caution. I want those numbers to be no more than 10% a month. I know how to do a dry micro taper off K using a gram scale, but I don't know what to do with the Val. Also, it will be a progressive taper, so I will ask for #s.  Many thanks.

Bets

 

If you are on 15mg V, 10% a month is 1.5mg a month.  The daily cut to do this would be .05mg.

[[ga...]]

Gard,

I was just thinking of you! I am still struggling with stomach issues and sleep issues from my stomach waking me up. It's the 4th week of it and it is hard, but it has improved. Today I am on 17mg of V, a little over 30% of my dose. It is helping with interdose wd. I am hoping my c/o continues to go well. It is hard not tapering. How are you? I hope your new dosing is going well and you are feeling better. I also hope you found a good therapist. I will see my former therapist today. I think I have told you how he is always part of my care and life. I think of you often and hope things are well!

 

XO Maya 

 

So sorry to hear about your stomach problems going on and on, Maya.    It does sound like your crossover is going pretty well. That's good news.

 

I'm still at 25mg L/day and cutting away at the X. Holding right now because symptoms are too rough, but plan to start up again soon, just at a slower pace. Slow and steady wins the race!

 

Gard