Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

Thank you builder for your reply....it is helpful....but I am math challenged, sorry    So does that mean the .02 of Ativan was not equal to 2 mg of valium?  sorry to be such a dufus.....thanks!

  Correct, .02mg A does NOT = 2mg V

 

  .02mg A = .2mg V.

 

 

[[sh...]]

Hi, I would appreciate suggestions on how to continue with my daily taper off Clonazepam. 

 

I have been cutting .05 ml daily since mid July - my starting dose was 1.5 mg.  I have been doing my taper with a combination of pills and compounding liquid.  My current dose is a .5 mg pill and 4.5ml of liquid before bed.  Based on my symptoms of the last 3 weeks, I think this cut rate has become too much - the stress of work/life and mending from a broken foot have definitely contributed.  I have been holding at my current rate for 4 days and the symptoms have become more manageable.

 

I am looking for some options in moving forward - now that my symptoms have become more manageable do I continue cutting at my current rate of .05 ml a day; is it wiser to reduce my daily cut to .04 .03ml's??  The markings on my 1 ml syringe are so tiny, how accurate can my cuts even be?!

 

Thank you, thank you.  This group has been my guiding light in tapering off this crap.

 

How is your compounded liquid made?  What is the concentration?  1ml = ?mg.  with this info we should be able to get you on the right track.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[sh...]]

 

I would highly recommend tapering the ativan first.  Ativan is much shorter acting and the V will help with the symptoms while coming off the ativan.  Other than that you seem to have your head around the process.  I like the use of almond oil but you cant dilute it with water which will limit your cut size but if you can handle the .1ml you will do fine.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Oh my gosh, look who's here! I almost passed out from the shock. Does this mean you and your little one are doing fine, new daddy? Sure hope so!

 

Gard

 

Hey gardener!!  My family and I are doing great!!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[Fi...]]

SHARKEY - my compounding concentration is .1 mg per ml.

 

Sorry, I can't sort out how to reply in the same thread without starting a new reply!

[[St...]]

Thank you builder......   I get it now...lol!!! 

[[sh...]]

SHARKEY - my compounding concentration is .1 mg per ml.

 

Sorry, I can't sort out how to reply in the same thread without starting a new reply!

 

Your current cut rate is .05ml which equals .005mg a day.  This rate has been challenging for some here.  An easy fix would be to cut every other day which would change your rate to .0025mg which is the rate I went to 0 at.  If you do take a smaller cut daily I would recommend .02ml a day which would be .002mg a day.  This will build your confidence and if it gets easy you can always increase to .03 or .04.  I hope that helps!!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[ga...]]

 

I would highly recommend tapering the ativan first.  Ativan is much shorter acting and the V will help with the symptoms while coming off the ativan.  Other than that you seem to have your head around the process.  I like the use of almond oil but you cant dilute it with water which will limit your cut size but if you can handle the .1ml you will do fine.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

 

Oh my gosh, look who's here! I almost passed out from the shock. Does this mean you and your little one are doing fine, new daddy? Sure hope so!

 

Gard

 

Hey gardener!!  My family and I are doing great!!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

That is so good to hear!!! I am always so impressed by anyone who can go through a taper with a young family to care for at the same time. I'm so glad you got through it, and you are all doing well.

 

Gard

[[st...]]

Thank you builder for your reply....it is helpful....but I am math challenged, sorry    So does that mean the .02 of Ativan was not equal to 2 mg of valium?  sorry to be such a dufus.....thanks!

 

Hi Stella,

 

It is frequently recommended that one wait a bit before resuming taper, as a precaution kinda. And I really empathize; these sorts of things can be nerve wracking.

 

And also, as builder says, .02 ativan = .2 valium. .2 mg ativan = 2 mg valium.

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm

 

Hope this helps!

 

Steve

[[my...]]

Hey MT's,

Here is a probably dumb question....it turns out I have been weighing pills on a gram scale using the ounce mode  .....  So, for example, my .5 mg K pill = .0060 oz (at least I think that is the right amount of zeros...)

 

Since I must taper now from a nice, round number of .75 to .71875 using my new schedule of .03125  mg every ten days, it is actually easier for me to shave off the .03125 from half of the .5 enteric coated tablet (.25).  OK.  The way I have been reducing has been to cut from one dose, then the next then the next and repeat.  The doses have not been exactly equal for ages and it doesn't seem to make any difference, so we'll leave that issue alone for now.

 

My question is this: any reason why I cannot continue to weigh my pills using the OZ. mode?  So, I get approx .0060 oz for the .5 mg..... .0030 oz for the .25 half.  I divided .25 by .03125 and got 8.  Then I divided .0030 oz by 8 and got .000375.  Then I subtracted that from .0030 and got .002625 which is what I took today as my mid-day dose.  Does any of this make sense to builder, SG or any other master taperers??

 

At the next reduction I will then shave the same amount off of the night time dose and after that from the morning dose and as others have said, rinse and repeat.

 

Basically I wanted to check my math and also ask about your thoughts re using the oz setting rather than the gram.  BTW...I did the adding up and dividing of the pills as Bennie suggests and got .176 gram average for my .5 mg pill.  That seems wrong...I thought it was less??...like .171 gram but can't find that post.

 

Thanks in advance 

 

[[St...]]

could you give me an example of a good daily liquid titration schedule, I have been given a 300 day schedule by one of the facebook groups and I just don't get it....I am on 0.5 Ativan pills, dose 4 times a day, am at .82 right now, cutting .02 every week...this is dry cutting and hold...what would be a good dose to liquid titrate daily? the pace I am at is a little rough for me....

[[Fi...]]

SHARKEY - my compounding concentration is .1 mg per ml.

 

Sorry, I can't sort out how to reply in the same thread without starting a new reply!

 

Your current cut rate is .05ml which equals .005mg a day.  This rate has been challenging for some here.  An easy fix would be to cut every other day which would change your rate to .0025mg which is the rate I went to 0 at.  If you do take a smaller cut daily I would recommend .02ml a day which would be .002mg a day.  This will build your confidence and if it gets easy you can always increase to .03 or .04.  I hope that helps!!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

 

 

Sharkey, thanks for these great suggestions.  I like the easy fix of cutting every other day - much easier to measure out the dosage!

Thank you, I feel more positive already! 

 

Finnie

 

[[...]]

Hey MT's,

Here is a probably dumb question....it turns out I have been weighing pills on a gram scale using the ounce mode  .....  So, for example, my .5 mg K pill = .0060 oz (at least I think that is the right amount of zeros...)

 

Since I must taper now from a nice, round number of .75 to .71875 using my new schedule of .03125  mg every ten days, it is actually easier for me to shave off the .03125 from half of the .5 enteric coated tablet (.25).  OK.  The way I have been reducing has been to cut from one dose, then the next then the next and repeat.  The doses have not been exactly equal for ages and it doesn't seem to make any difference, so we'll leave that issue alone for now.

 

My question is this: any reason why I cannot continue to weigh my pills using the OZ. mode?  So, I get approx .0060 oz for the .5 mg..... .0030 oz for the .25 half.  I divided .25 by .03125 and got 8.  Then I divided .0030 oz by 8 and got .000375.  Then I subtracted that from .0030 and got .002625 which is what I took today as my mid-day dose.  Does any of this make sense to builder, SG or any other master taperers??

 

At the next reduction I will then shave the same amount off of the night time dose and after that from the morning dose and as others have said, rinse and repeat.

 

Basically I wanted to check my math and also ask about your thoughts re using the oz setting rather than the gram.  BTW...I did the adding up and dividing of the pills as Bennie suggests and got .176 gram average for my .5 mg pill.  That seems wrong...I thought it was less??...like .171 gram but can't find that post.

 

Thanks in advance 

 

There are 28.35g in 1 oz.  The scale measures to whatever accuracy it measures to and just displays the units you choose, so the accuracy is not effected by using the ounce mode.  But if the display is truncating digits there might be some loss of accuracy from that.  I doubt it would truncate something it can measure, but I'm not sure.

 

In google I put in .001g (the lowest it can display) and got .000035274 oz.  Will your scale display this?

 

As far as the .002625 dose math, I could not follow your numbers without the units.

[[my...]]

Hmmmm....nope...I have the gram scale everyone has recommended, the Gemini - 20, and the lowest ounce number it registers is .0000 at tare.  So, again, my .25 mg or 1/2 of a .5 mg K tab equals .0030 oz.  and after all my multiplying and dividing I ended up with .0026-.0027 oz equalling a .03125mg reduction off the .0030.  Just eyeballing it - it looks about right.  Anyway it's over for today and I have until mid day tomorrow to rethink this.

 

I guess I should refigure in grams....  I know it will be necessary when I get really low and have to MT....unless I can C/H all the way down.

 

BTW...most of the time, I have cut by sight, not by weight and it's amazing, weighing my halves today, how off I have probably been on any given dose, though over the course of a couple of days all is made whole.  One thing I do know is that reducing my cuts from .06125 mg to .03125 mg, regardless of how crude the cuts have been, has made a huge difference.  The last two cuts were easy in comparison with the last .06125 cut which represented about an 8% decrease.  I guess too much for me.

 

Now does it make sense?  Or still not?? 

[[my...]]

SG,

Sorry...what do you mean by "units??"

thanks,

m

[[...]]

Hmmmm....nope...I have the gram scale everyone has recommended, the Gemini - 20, and the lowest ounce number it registers is .0000 at tare.  So, again, my .25 mg or 1/2 of a .5 mg K tab equals .0030 oz.  and after all my multiplying and dividing I ended up with .0026-.0027 oz equalling a .03125mg reduction off the .0030.  Just eyeballing it - it looks about right.  Anyway it's over for today and I have until mid day tomorrow to rethink this.

 

I guess I should refigure in grams....  I know it will be necessary when I get really low and have to MT....unless I can C/H all the way down.

 

BTW...most of the time, I have cut by sight, not by weight and it's amazing, weighing my halves today, how off I have probably been on any given dose, though over the course of a couple of days all is made whole.  One thing I do know is that reducing my cuts from .06125 mg to .03125 mg, regardless of how crude the cuts have been, has made a huge difference.  The last two cuts were easy in comparison with the last .06125 cut which represented about an 8% decrease.  I guess too much for me.

 

Now does it make sense?  Or still not?? 

 

I was having trouble with what your numbers meant as they were not labeled with "oz" or "mg".  These are the "units" I was referring to.

 

If your .5mg pill weighs .0060oz that is 83.33mg/oz.  .25mg is .0030oz and you want to cut .03125mg from that to make your final dose .21875mg.  At 83.33mg/oz that would be .002625oz, which is what you got above, so I'd say your math is correct.

 

I have never used the scale.  How does it display these ounces when it only has three digits behind the decimal place?  Oh, does it move the decimal place to the left to get more digits?

 

Edited to fix decimal places.

[[de...]]

good morning

 

I need some math help please just for my own knowledge

 

how much am i cutting as in % wise if i am tapering .001 every other day off a 1mg tab taking 4 doses a day .88 .88 .87 .87 weight avg. being .170..i cant do the math but would like to know if i am at somewhere between 5 to 10 percent every 2 weeks if not then i want to up the cut rate if i can and tolerate it.

 

when i go to the doc next week I am going to ask for the .5mgs and start to cut them..and see where i end up at.

 

SG..i know you said i would be able to taper everyday .001 for awhile when i get the .5mgs tabs..why is that?? and how can i do it on them but not on the 1 mg tabs? would i be cutting more or would it be the same amount since the tabs are half the size?

 

thanks in advance for any help

 

deep

[[...]]

good morning

 

I need some math help please just for my own knowledge

 

how much am i cutting as in % wise if i am tapering .001 every other day off a 1mg tab taking 4 doses a day .88 .88 .87 .87 weight avg. being .170..i cant do the math but would like to know if i am at somewhere between 5 to 10 percent every 2 weeks if not then i want to up the cut rate if i can and tolerate it.

 

when i go to the doc next week I am going to ask for the .5mgs and start to cut them..and see where i end up at.

 

SG..i know you said i would be able to taper everyday .001 for awhile when i get the .5mgs tabs..why is that?? and how can i do it on them but not on the 1 mg tabs? would i be cutting more or would it be the same amount since the tabs are half the size?

 

thanks in advance for any help

 

deep

 

Hi Deep, The .5mg will be an improvement.  I'm glad you plan to do that.  You are able to taper .001g every other day with 1mg tabs and .5mg tabs have half as much K in them yet they weigh about the same, so cutting .001g every day on a .5mg tab is the same thing as cutting .001g every other day on a 1mg tab.  You'd be cutting the same amount, but with more accuracy.

 

As for your percent question, we don't need to know the mgs of K to figure percent.  Your total daily pill weight is .350g (.088g+.088g+.087g+.087g) and you are cutting .001g every other day.  That is .015g a month which is 4.3% a month or .14% a day.  This is quite slow, but as always you want to stay within what you can tolerate and keep symptoms from increasing.

[[my...]]

Thanks, SG! The scale registers ounces with 4 zeros after the decimal point, thus one .5 mg tab (on average) equals .0060 oz.

 

Whew!!  Glad my math was correct.  Think I'll stick with ounces until and unless a MT is in my future.  We'll see.  You are the BEST!!     

[[St...]]

I posted yesterday but didn[t get a response, maybe I didn't explain myself very clearly....   I have cut .02 from Ativan....I am currently at .82.  I cut a week ago, and am experiencing strong symptoms,  wondering if it would be better for me to go to liquid titration....I have received a plan from one of the benzo facebook pages for 300 days...does that sound like a good plan?  I take 0.5 pills....I just get slammed so hard on cut and hold...

 

[[...]]

Thanks, SG! The scale registers ounces with 4 zeros after the decimal point, thus one .5 mg tab (on average) equals .0060 oz.

 

Whew!!  Glad my math was correct.  Think I'll stick with ounces until and unless a MT is in my future.  We'll see.  You are the BEST!!     

 

Hmmm, if the scale only displays four ounce decimal places after the decimal point you may be better off using grams.  I think it may be truncating the last little bit.  Here's why...

 

When we use grams it will display down to .001g which is ~.003mg K on a .5mg tab.  But when you use ounces it will display .0001oz, which is .0083mg K.  This is not nearly as fine a division.  It is nearly three times rougher.  Without the fifth decimal place accuracy is lost.

 

Now I wonder what other modes (and decimal places) these scales have and if there is a better mode to use than grams.

[[my...]]

Interesting, SG....oh well...so now I've got to figure it out  with grams. Will get back to you if I need help

 

here are the "modes"...hope I can read as they are in teeny tiny print:

 

oz; gn; dwt; ct; g; ozt. 

What do you think?

 

Also, to Stella, hang in...someone is bound to come online and help you. I would but know nothing about Ativan - only that my doc says it is equal to Klonopin in difficulty...aren't we lucky?? And less about liquid titration.  So sorry you are slammed!  Know the feeling..... 

 

Mana

 

 

[[be...]]

Hi:

 

I plan to do a MT (dry or liquid val) at 15 mg of Val. How much do I need to drop every day by a reasonable amount, erring on the side of caution. I want those numbers to be no more than 10% a month. I know how to do a dry micro taper off K using a gram scale, but I don't know what to do with the Val. Also, it will be a progressive taper, so I will ask for #s.  Many thanks.

Bets

[[St...]]

Thanks Mana, I will be patient.....   This really isn't fun is it?  Hope you start doing better and better....best wishes...Stella

[[...]]

Interesting, SG....oh well...so now I've got to figure it out  with grams. Will get back to you if I need help

 

here are the "modes"...hope I can read as they are in teeny tiny print:

 

oz; gn; dwt; ct; g; ozt. 

What do you think?

 

Also, to Stella, hang in...someone is bound to come online and help you. I would but know nothing about Ativan - only that my doc says it is equal to Klonopin in difficulty...aren't we lucky?? And less about liquid titration.  So sorry you are slammed!  Know the feeling..... 

 

Mana

 

The scale has a certain accuracy and this is not changed by the way the weight is displayed, but the display can chop off the end of the number for different modes and withhold accuracy, as we saw with ounces.  They probably do this in cases where the last number would jump around too much.  So I'd think with all those modes they display as many decimal places as they can until the last value jumps around too much.  And sometimes they get caught in the middle, like with ounces, and decide not to show a number that is just too hard to settle down.

 

The finest unit on that list is grains (gn).  One gram is 15.43gn.  We know .001g is about ~.003mg K with a .5mg pill.  If it displayed .01gn that would be .0019mg K...this is finer than grams.  But if it displays only .1gn that would be .019mg K...much too rough.  Any of the modes could potentially read finer than the gram mode, it just depends on how many decimal places they choose to show.  I'd need to know how many decimal places each mode displayed.

[[...]]

I posted yesterday but didn[t get a response, maybe I didn't explain myself very clearly....   I have cut .02 from Ativan....I am currently at .82.  I cut a week ago, and am experiencing strong symptoms,  wondering if it would be better for me to go to liquid titration....I have received a plan from one of the benzo facebook pages for 300 days...does that sound like a good plan?  I take 0.5 pills....I just get slammed so hard on cut and hold...

 

Hi Stella,

 

No one can know how much time you might need so it is best not to specify a certain time.  But 300 days to taper .82mg Ativan is in a range I'd consider common.