Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[jr...]]

hope this hasnt already been answered, but the pharma changed the brand of my alprazalam. the old brand had a average weight of .130 grams and the new brand has a average weight of .146. do I continue to shave off the same amount or does it change based on the percentage of the weight difference?

[[bu...]]

hope this hasnt already been answered, but the pharma changed the brand of my alprazalam. the old brand had a average weight of .130 grams and the new brand has a average weight of .146. do I continue to shave off the same amount or does it change based on the percentage of the weight difference?

  Yes, you must increase the amount you shave off in proportion the increase in weight.    From .130 to .146 is a 12% increase in weight, so you need to increase the "shave off" amount by 12%.

[[jr...]]

currently, I shave my nightime dose from .130 to .114. so, when dealing with a starting weight of .146, I would need to shave it to.128.Is that right ?

[[Ma...]]

A good thing about crossing this way is you can hold as needed.  If it seems too fast just delay the next one for a day or two as needed.  The active V metabolites are already building.  I would not worry about it.

 

As for pill cutting, you're already dosing V three times a day so there are no more pills to cut, just the same number of pills getting bigger?

 

I don't know why MT did not work well for you, but I am not concluding that it had to do with your dose.  I think there was another reason, although I don't know what that is.  But I understand your apprehension, based on your past experience.

 

Anything you can do to reduce the gaps in dosing will work in your favor.  This is not a black and white thing.  It is shades of grey.  Lots of subjective trade-offs.  You'll decide what dosing times are worth it or not.

 

Good to get V on an eight hour schedule.

You are right. I was really foggy this morning when I write to you. Four hours of bad sleep will do that to you. I guess I just wanted a set plan and to do just do that, so I wouldn't have to bother you anymore. You are clearly in very high demand. I am sorry to be such a bother. You have been so helpful to me. I had no idea about crossovers. I also a, indecisive, paranoid, lost, and I don't trust my self to make the right decision. I really want to do this c/o right because I really need the half life and K is so awful to me. I hope V will be less cruel. I'm having a hard time. K is really messing with my stomach and that messes with my sleep. This is the third week of it. I never really had stomach problems or at least not serious ones until 3 years ago, while in tol wd after being on  high dose of K for 10+ years. They also got worse a year and a half ago after I had tapered from 6-4mg, but I didn't make the connection. It's weird because I had been feeling better otherwise. I was feeling less anxious and having a lot less sxs. I still am besides my stomach, but it's starting to wear on me. As is the lack of sleep. Holding and cutting both didn't make a difference. The C/O so far has not made a difference. I can tell its starting to help interdose wd. I don't want to push my body too far while like this, but I want to do the C/O. I don't if I should stop and do a longer hold. I would if I thought it would help. I don't think so, but I don't know.

 

I am glad to know I don't need to worry about the active metabolites. That part confuses me. My pdoc didn't even know about them.

 

I was just being a whiny brat about the pills. The 10mg V I have crumble so easily. Cutting them into 3mg I waste whole pills because I cut them in two and then have to cut more and then it completely crumbles. I will be at 5mg soon enough. I meant the bigger the dose, the less times I need to cut it.

 

I think MT did not work well for me mainly because of my dose, but also the fact that I was in tolerance wd, and maybe my rapid metabolizing. That is just what I think. I don't see what else it could be. I see others struggle with it at lower doses than mine. I see it be so helpful to many on low doses. Everyone is different. To cut at least 5% a week, which I can always do at least that with cut and hold, would be a big amount per day. I hope it works at a lower dose. It does make me hesitant to swap every day. I also am hesitant to switch more than two doses in a day, as I had issues with that in the past. I am not saying I won't try it. For tomorrow, I will add 1mg V to my middle dose and 2mg to my V dose and see how it goes. I will go from there.

 

I want to reduce the gaps in dosing, but I need to dose often during the day or the interdose wd is bad. 4 hours will probably work in the future when I have more V. Also obviously, the best would be to be completely on V and dose 3 times at most 4. I am going to make a 7th dose. I am so sick of doing math every night. I think I will make it less than the others. It's confusing because I also have to cut .15mg K to add the V in. I think I will make the 7th dose smaller than the rest because it is not taken that far before my 1st.

 

I can't V on an eight hour schedule, unless I dose separate from the K. That is just too much for me. I am tired, but I need to figure out the dosing and math for tomorrow's pills.

 

Thank you so much for all your help!!! I hope you are having a good night!

 

XO Maya

 

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Does this make sense for tomorrow:

Random time I wake up .25mg K

9am .3mg K and 3mg V

12pm .35mg k

3pm .30mg K

6pm .3mg K 4mg V

9pm .3mg K

12am .35mg K and 5mg V

 

EDIT: I am starting to feel a little off. I think it is just stress. I am going to hold and do this change Fri. Maybe 3mg every 3 days or 2mg every 2 days is better anyway.

[[an...]]

Thank you so much, SG. I can go back a few steps. I am so grateful for being able to get your input. I just cut some pills. Scale is getting wiggy on me so that's not helping. But hopefully .044 mg will. Is there a limit to how long I can hold?

 

I don't believe in limiting holding.  It seems always helpful to me.

 

I agree SG.  Holding is necessary at times.  I do not hesitate to hold when I need to. It does slow down the taper, but I would rather have manageable symptoms.

[[ga...]]

Does this make sense for tomorrow:

Random time I wake up .25mg K

9am .3mg K and 3mg V

12pm .35mg k

3pm .30mg K

6pm .3mg K 4mg V

9pm .3mg K

12am .35mg K and 5mg V

 

Maya, that doesn't look bad to me, but just wondering what the "random time you wake up" is. Is it in the middle of the night or more like when you get up in the morning? Because if the random time is something like 7AM, you could put the V with the K at 7AM, 3PM and 12AM and have them a bit more even.

 

But, if not, I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point. My L was ridiculously uneven until recently and still helped quite a bit with knocking down the interdose w/d. L has active metabolites, too, and is very close to V that way.

 

BTW, I took a whole month to cross just half way. Going slowly and carefully as you are makes this likely to work out just fine.

 

Gard

 

P.S. If SG disagrees, I withdraw everything I said about dosing schedules!   

[[Ma...]]

Gardener,

Random wake up time could be 4am to 7am. I didn't used to have wake up times. My stomach has been waking me up. It will be pretty close to 1st dose. I can't add V to that dose because it is too erratic. I can't dose the V separate. I am alreadyadding in a 7th dose and taking 10 pills. It's too confusing. Also my K and V pills look the same. The V pills are a tiny but darker, but the same color.

 

Thanks! It's tough to keep it even while crossing. Did you notice it took awhile for active metabolites to build up? I am confused about them. I hope your new dosing schedule is working better!

 

I am trying to do it carefully and as slow as needed. I worry I am going too fast. I decided to hold tomorrow and switch Friday. Thanks so much for your help and support!

 

I am sure SG won't think it's best, but I can't dose every 4 hrs because of interdose wd.

 

XO Maya 

[[Hi...]]

i understand that a nice slow taper is the answer but the symptoms  im having  are completely  unbearable  its not a matter of just tapering  i am in so much agony  that it is indescribably  i will explain  like this. I am in massive  tolerance withdrawal  and i am worse than most peoples  cold turkey. I feel like im in  detox every day and  im not tapering. .

 

You cannot  taper like that im having  severe akathisia and  i need to  rip my skin off and escape  my soul. Does  anyone  understand  this?? The doctor  gave me valium  to try and add the valium  in and then start micro tapering.  Im already  tapering i made two tiny cuts and it was unbearable before i even cut. My liver stings im telling evrerone here i cannot go on like this something needs to change ive tried valium before and it helped at first and then made me so tired and fogged and kept building but im kicking bad. Idk whats happening this isnt just a wave things are changing bad. Its getting worse and worse. I cant  see anything  and im having  organic fear and akathisia and  im drowning cant  breathe my eyes are buzzing i hope this is from  the methadone  drop 3 days ago but im  in agony right now  i dont know what to do  im so jacked i cant  pray right now im litterally  stuck in shock.  Time  is going  backwards

[[...]]

i understand that a nice slow taper is the answer but the symptoms  im having  are completely  unbearable  its not a matter of just tapering  i am in so much agony  that it is indescribably  i will explain  like this. I am in massive  tolerance withdrawal  and i am worse than most peoples  cold turkey. I feel like im in  detox every day and  im not tapering. .

 

You cannot  taper like that im having  severe akathisia and  i need to  rip my skin off and escape  my soul. Does  anyone  understand  this?? The doctor  gave me valium  to try and add the valium  in and then start micro tapering.  Im already  tapering i made two tiny cuts and it was unbearable before i even cut. My liver stings im telling evrerone here i cannot go on like this something needs to change ive tried valium before and it helped at first and then made me so tired and fogged and kept building but im kicking bad. Idk whats happening this isnt just a wave things are changing bad. Its getting worse and worse. I cant  see anything  and im having  organic fear and akathisia and  im drowning cant  breathe my eyes are buzzing i hope this is from  the methadone  drop 3 days ago but im  in agony right now  i dont know what to do  im so jacked i cant  pray right now im litterally  stuck in shock.  Time  is going  backwards

 

 

HH,

    I just don't know what to say except I feel so bad you are having a hell of a time. I don't know what you can do except continue with what you are doing. I know that is not much help. I will pray for you too. Maybe this is from the methadone drop, and it will calm down in a couple days, I hope so. Rose

[[...]]

Does this make sense for tomorrow:

Random time I wake up .25mg K

9am .3mg K and 3mg V

12pm .35mg k

3pm .30mg K

6pm .3mg K 4mg V

9pm .3mg K

12am .35mg K and 5mg V

 

EDIT: I am starting to feel a little off. I think it is just stress. I am going to hold and do this change Fri. Maybe 3mg every 3 days or 2mg every 2 days is better anyway.

 

I agree with Gard.  Getting the V around ~7am then at 3pm and 12am would make it more even.  And I also agree this is not too bad.  Instead of 5mg at 12am I'd make it 4mg for all  doses.  The first K dose could be bigger since you are just coming off a long no-dose period, but all in all pretty good.

[[ga...]]

Gardener,

Random wake up time could be 4am to 7am. I didn't used to have wake up times. My stomach has been waking me up. It will be pretty close to 1st dose. I can't add V to that dose because it is too erratic. I can't dose the V separate. I am alreadyadding in a 7th dose and taking 10 pills. It's too confusing. Also my K and V pills look the same. The V pills are a tiny but darker, but the same color.

 

Thanks! It's tough to keep it even while crossing. Did you notice it took awhile for active metabolites to build up? I am confused about them. I hope your new dosing schedule is working better!

 

I am trying to do it carefully and as slow as needed. I worry I am going too fast. I decided to hold tomorrow and switch Friday. Thanks so much for your help and support!

 

I am sure SG won't think it's best, but I can't dose every 4 hrs because of interdose wd.

 

XO Maya 

 

Active metabolites just means that when your body breaks the V into pieces to try to get rid of it, some of the pieces are also benzos and need to be broken down further. That's what makes the effect of V (and L) last so long.  I just remember that I took a month to cross only half way, so it wasn't very fast. And I remember feeling some improvement and some bumps as I crossed. I think that when you get more V in there, you won't feel the inter-dose withdrawal as much. K is a very fast benzo.

[[...]]

Active metabolites just means that when your body breaks the V into pieces to try to get rid of it, some of the pieces are also benzos and need to be broken down further. That's what makes the effect of V (and L) last so long. I just remember that I took a month to cross only half way, so it wasn't very fast. And I remember feeling some improvement and some bumps as I crossed. I think that when you get more V in there, you won't feel the inter-dose withdrawal as much. K is a very fast benzo.

 

What a clear explanation.

[[ga...]]

Active metabolites just means that when your body breaks the V into pieces to try to get rid of it, some of the pieces are also benzos and need to be broken down further. That's what makes the effect of V (and L) last so long. I just remember that I took a month to cross only half way, so it wasn't very fast. And I remember feeling some improvement and some bumps as I crossed. I think that when you get more V in there, you won't feel the inter-dose withdrawal as much. K is a very fast benzo.

 

What a clear explanation.

 

So apparently my teaching degree hasn't gone to a complete waste in spite of my benzo-brain!

[[Ma...]]

Does this make sense for tomorrow:

Random time I wake up .25mg K

9am .3mg K and 3mg V

12pm .35mg k

3pm .30mg K

6pm .3mg K 4mg V

9pm .3mg K

12am .35mg K and 5mg V

 

EDIT: I am starting to feel a little off. I think it is just stress. I am going to hold and do this change Fri. Maybe 3mg every 3 days or 2mg every 2 days is better anyway.

 

I agree with Gard.  Getting the V around ~7am then at 3pm and 12am would make it more even.  And I also agree this is not too bad.  Instead of 5mg at 12am I'd make it 4mg for all  doses.  The first K dose could be bigger since you are just coming off a long no-dose period, but all in all pretty good.

I can't dose at 7am. I won't wake myself up to dose. If I wake up I will take a little K that is all I can do. Sleep is very important to me and I need to do whatever I can to make it better. Last night I don't think I even woke up. The .25mg of K was still there and I don't remember waking up. This was the first time in over two weeks. I am hoping this will continue. I didn't cut my pills for the rest of the day yet. I will do the same as yesterday's. Tomorrow I will move V from 2nd to 1st dose. Tomorrow I will do the schedule I wrote. I do not feel comfortable changing all my doses on the same day. I am going to do it that way. Then if that goes well I will try switching 2mg every 2 days and still switch two doses. I think I would be fine switching 3mg every 2 days. I will try in the future if things go well. Last night I was just stressed and got nervous, so I didn't switch today.I don't want to jinx it, but my stomach isn't as bad so far today. I hope this continue and it continues to improve. I will consider switching all doses later on. Right now I don't feel comfortable switching more than once every 2-3 days and switching more than two doses. It is already a lot because I have to cut K doses to allow for V doses, but so far my body has not reacted to that. My first dose will be higher in K because I will either take .5mg K and 3mg V or I will take .25mg of that K close to when I wake up for good. I hope I can stop waking up. Also I made my 2nd dose higher .35mg because that is a time I feel interdose wd more, as well. I also am trying to make my night V dose bigger first because I am hoping it will help with sleep. I will be evening them as much as possible. I just don't feel comfortable changing them all in one day. If things continue to go well, I will try it. I know I am being paranoid. Thank you so much for always helping me!

[[Ma...]]

Gardener,

Random wake up time could be 4am to 7am. I didn't used to have wake up times. My stomach has been waking me up. It will be pretty close to 1st dose. I can't add V to that dose because it is too erratic. I can't dose the V separate. I am alreadyadding in a 7th dose and taking 10 pills. It's too confusing. Also my K and V pills look the same. The V pills are a tiny but darker, but the same color.

 

Thanks! It's tough to keep it even while crossing. Did you notice it took awhile for active metabolites to build up? I am confused about them. I hope your new dosing schedule is working better!

 

I am trying to do it carefully and as slow as needed. I worry I am going too fast. I decided to hold tomorrow and switch Friday. Thanks so much for your help and support!

 

I am sure SG won't think it's best, but I can't dose every 4 hrs because of interdose wd.

 

XO Maya 

 

Active metabolites just means that when your body breaks the V into pieces to try to get rid of it, some of the pieces are also benzos and need to be broken down further. That's what makes the effect of V (and L) last so long.  I just remember that I took a month to cross only half way, so it wasn't very fast. And I remember feeling some improvement and some bumps as I crossed. I think that when you get more V in there, you won't feel the inter-dose withdrawal as much. K is a very fast benzo.

Thank for that explanation! It was a very good and clear one. Makes spore sense now. I do wonder about how long before I feel them and how long before they built up. Dr. Peart crosses really fast and does a month hold, so they build up. I am not crossing anywhere near as fast as him. I am already feeling interdose wd less after I take my doses with V. Besides that, I haven't noticed a difference good or bad, but I have only switched 9mg of K for .45mg of K so far. For my high dose that isn't a lot. Most people can usually directly taper off K it's half life is usually 17-50 hours. I am just a rapid metabolizers. Many switch for X to K to taper. IMHO K is the worst. I think switching to L or V makes more sense, but different things work for different people.

[[ga...]]

Gardener,

Random wake up time could be 4am to 7am. I didn't used to have wake up times. My stomach has been waking me up. It will be pretty close to 1st dose. I can't add V to that dose because it is too erratic. I can't dose the V separate. I am alreadyadding in a 7th dose and taking 10 pills. It's too confusing. Also my K and V pills look the same. The V pills are a tiny but darker, but the same color.

 

Thanks! It's tough to keep it even while crossing. Did you notice it took awhile for active metabolites to build up? I am confused about them. I hope your new dosing schedule is working better!

 

I am trying to do it carefully and as slow as needed. I worry I am going too fast. I decided to hold tomorrow and switch Friday. Thanks so much for your help and support!

 

I am sure SG won't think it's best, but I can't dose every 4 hrs because of interdose wd.

 

XO Maya 

 

Active metabolites just means that when your body breaks the V into pieces to try to get rid of it, some of the pieces are also benzos and need to be broken down further. That's what makes the effect of V (and L) last so long.  I just remember that I took a month to cross only half way, so it wasn't very fast. And I remember feeling some improvement and some bumps as I crossed. I think that when you get more V in there, you won't feel the inter-dose withdrawal as much. K is a very fast benzo.

Thank for that explanation! It was a very good and clear one. Makes spore sense now. I do wonder about how long before I feel them and how long before they built up. Dr. Peart crosses really fast and does a month hold, so they build up. I am not crossing anywhere near as fast as him. I am already feeling interdose wd less after I take my doses with V. Besides that, I haven't noticed a difference good or bad, but I have only switched 9mg of K for .45mg of K so far. For my high dose that isn't a lot. Most people can usually directly taper off K it's half life is usually 17-50 hours. I am just a rapid metabolizers. Many switch for X to K to taper. IMHO K is the worst. I think switching to L or V makes more sense, but different things work for different people.

 

I can see how Dr. Peart's method would work if you are very brave! And if nothing does wrong. And if you know V is going to work well for you. But, if something does go wrong and you find out V is not the right drug for you then you are going to pay for that fast cross for a long, long time. So, I like the slow method better.

 

I decided against switching from X to K because I saw more negatives than positives in that. K can create some unique problems for some people and is not really very slow anyway, so I decided to stay away from it. Also, Ashton switches everybody to V unless they are on L already. That seems to be the most tried-and-true method. Of course, there will be exceptions. There always are.

 

I hope you and SG can work out a dosing schedule. I tried to understand what you wrote about dosing just now but am too foggy-brained to understand it this morning! My general advice would be to get as even as you can and that getting the K spaced evenly is much more important than getting the V spaced evenly.

 

FYI: My middle-of-the-night dose is off by as much as 2 1/2 hours because I don't set an alarm for it. (Heaven forbid I'd have an alarm in the middle of the night!) The more slow benzo you have, the less you are going to feel it if you are off schedule. One morning I woke up and found my 11PM dose still sitting on the kitchen counter. After freaking out, I took it with my morning dose and thanked God it was Librium, not Xanax. Now I take my night dose at 10PM when I am more alert and less likely to imagine I took a dose without really taking it.

[[Ma...]]

Gardner,

It has worked for some. That is faster than I feel comfortable going. He doesn't have a schedule close to my dose. I think it might be better for lower doses than higher. I think you were smart to pick L over K. K is pretty slow for most. Most don't even begin to feel the cut at for at least 2 days. I am a freak rapid metabolizer.

 

I think a basic schedule is worked out for now. Then I will adjust accordingly. I just cut my pills through Sat. I plan on crossing more V Sun. I am trying to get things as evenly spaced as possible, but it is complicated with 7 doses and 10 pills. I really hope I can do a complete C/O and dose V 3 times or 4 times at most. It's confusing especially with how tired and foggy I have been.

 

I have two pill boxes with tiny stickies on each, it makes it less confusing. I also am not dosing at the same time every day, just every 3 hours with K during the day. It is confusing. I would never set an alarm for a dose. I think sleep is so healing. I hope your dosing becomes less confusing.

 

SG,

I just call my pills through Sat. Today I left the same. Tomorrow and Sat I will dose like this:

1st dose .5mg K (cut in two that way I can take half if I wake up early in am) 3mg V

2nd dose: .35mg K

3rd dose: .3mg K

4th dose: .3mg K and 4mg V

5th dose: .35mg K

6th dose: .35mg K and 5mg V

 

I know you think I should make all the doses 4mg, but I don't feel comfortable changing more than 2 doses right now. If things are going well, I will try it later on. Then Sunday I plan to cross 2mg V and try doing that every other day and maybe if that is going really well do 3mg every other day. Also holding more and crossing less if needed. I don't think I would ever feel comfortable making a change every day. Also the accuracy is harder with 1mg K pills. It's what I have though. Like the way I plan on doing Sunday will equal 2.02mg K not 2.05mg like it should. The V is not an issue. Do think that's ok? This is Sunday in grams. My 1mg K pills have an average weight of .174g. 10mg V pills weigh an average of .150g. I am foggy, but I think my math is right. Oh and I am using .5mg K pills with an average weight of .169g for 1st dose only,

 

Sunday:

1st dose two K pills weighing .084g and V pill weighing .06g

2nd dose: .053g K a

3rd dose: .053g K

4th dose: .053g K and .075g V

5th dose .053g

6th dose: .053g K and .075g V

 

Sorry, that I keep bothering you. If you think that my dosing and plan looks ok. I will just continue doing the same and adjust accordingly. I also am open to adding to trying to add to all doses later on if things are going well, but I only want to make changes every other day at most. Thank you soooo much! I don't know what I would do without you.

1st dose

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

Gardner,

It has worked for some. That is faster than I feel comfortable going. He doesn't have a schedule close to my dose. I think it might be better for lower doses than higher. I think you were smart to pick L over K. K is pretty slow for most. Most don't even begin to feel the cut at for at least 2 days. I am a freak rapid metabolizer.

 

I think a basic schedule is worked out for now. Then I will adjust accordingly. I just cut my pills through Sat. I plan on crossing more V Sun. I am trying to get things as evenly spaced as possible, but it is complicated with 7 doses and 10 pills. I really hope I can do a complete C/O and dose V 3 times or 4 times at most. It's confusing especially with how tired and foggy I have been.

 

I have two pill boxes with tiny stickies on each, it makes it less confusing. I also am not dosing at the same time every day, just every 3 hours with K during the day. It is confusing. I would never set an alarm for a dose. I think sleep is so healing. I hope your dosing becomes less confusing.

 

SG,

I just call my pills through Sat. Today I left the same. Tomorrow and Sat I will dose like this:

1st dose .5mg K (cut in two that way I can take half if I wake up early in am) 3mg V

2nd dose: .35mg K

3rd dose: .3mg K

4th dose: .3mg K and 4mg V

5th dose: .35mg K

6th dose: .35mg K and 5mg V

 

I know you think I should make all the doses 4mg, but I don't feel comfortable changing more than 2 doses right now. If things are going well, I will try it later on. Then Sunday I plan to cross 2mg V and try doing that every other day and maybe if that is going really well do 3mg every other day. Also holding more and crossing less if needed. I don't think I would ever feel comfortable making a change every day. Also the accuracy is harder with 1mg K pills. It's what I have though. Like the way I plan on doing Sunday will equal 2.02mg K not 2.05mg like it should. The V is not an issue. Do think that's ok? This is Sunday in grams. My 1mg K pills have an average weight of .174g. 10mg V pills weigh an average of .150g. I am foggy, but I think my math is right. Oh and I am using .5mg K pills with an average weight of .169g for 1st dose only,

 

Sunday:

1st dose two K pills weighing .084g and V pill weighing .06g

2nd dose: .053g K a

3rd dose: .053g K

4th dose: .053g K and .075g V

5th dose .053g

6th dose: .053g K and .075g V

 

Sorry, that I keep bothering you. If you think that my dosing and plan looks ok. I will just continue doing the same and adjust accordingly. I also am open to adding to trying to add to all doses later on if things are going well, but I only want to make changes every other day at most. Thank you soooo much! I don't know what I would do without you.

1st dose

 

Before I forget I want to point out that you are dosing V three times and you say interdose seems better.  If it really is better I'd take that as evidence that three a day is giving interdose relief and may be enough V doses.

 

d1: .248mg K+4mg V

d2: .305mg K

d3: .305mg K

d4: .305mg K+5mg V

d5: .305mg K

d6: .305mg+5mg V

Total: 1.773mg+14mg V

 

Looks good to me...are these doses correct?

[[Ul...]]

 

You wake up once at night??  Man!! I'd be ecstatic to just be able to go to sleep ONE time for a few hours. I pray, pray, pray for a time to come when I can sleep for more than a few minutes at a time. I "fell asleep" the other afternoon and woke up and just  knew that I'd been asleep for several hours. I felt pretty decent for a minute, looked at my clock, then noticed it had only been 16 minutes. Really stinks. My mind is officially lost. Let me know if you find my mind or anybody elses. I'll take whatever I can get. Thanks!

 

I know the feeling. After months of that, I couldn't take it any more and now I am drugged to sleep at night. On a good night I only wake up once. I don't know how good the quality of the sleep is, I'm still very tired, but it sure beats looking at the clock all night. The gabapentin doesn't work well or keep me asleep very long but it's better than nothing. The Q works better, but makes me feel awful the whole next day. Still beats looking at the clock all night, though.

 

So how's it going with your new doctor? Getting the scripts you need to taper properly?

 

Hey Gard! Yep, getting the scripts I need but still can't taper. Too messed up with the no-sleep thing, sweats and flashes, yada, yada, yada. Lots of stress. It's a mess, but hanging on. Having trouble with my computer. Trying to find someone to work on it who won't charge a lot. Anyway, keep truckin' along towards the finish!

 

Hugs to you and everyone else!

 

Jeff

[[...]]

Gardener,

Random wake up time could be 4am to 7am. I didn't used to have wake up times. My stomach has been waking me up. It will be pretty close to 1st dose. I can't add V to that dose because it is too erratic. I can't dose the V separate. I am alreadyadding in a 7th dose and taking 10 pills. It's too confusing. Also my K and V pills look the same. The V pills are a tiny but darker, but the same color.

 

Thanks! It's tough to keep it even while crossing. Did you notice it took awhile for active metabolites to build up? I am confused about them. I hope your new dosing schedule is working better!

 

I am trying to do it carefully and as slow as needed. I worry I am going too fast. I decided to hold tomorrow and switch Friday. Thanks so much for your help and support!

 

I am sure SG won't think it's best, but I can't dose every 4 hrs because of interdose wd.

 

XO Maya 

 

Active metabolites just means that when your body breaks the V into pieces to try to get rid of it, some of the pieces are also benzos and need to be broken down further. That's what makes the effect of V (and L) last so long.  I just remember that I took a month to cross only half way, so it wasn't very fast. And I remember feeling some improvement and some bumps as I crossed. I think that when you get more V in there, you won't feel the inter-dose withdrawal as much. K is a very fast benzo.

Thank for that explanation! It was a very good and clear one. Makes spore sense now. I do wonder about how long before I feel them and how long before they built up. Dr. Peart crosses really fast and does a month hold, so they build up. I am not crossing anywhere near as fast as him. I am already feeling interdose wd less after I take my doses with V. Besides that, I haven't noticed a difference good or bad, but I have only switched 9mg of K for .45mg of K so far. For my high dose that isn't a lot. Most people can usually directly taper off K it's half life is usually 17-50 hours. I am just a rapid metabolizers. Many switch for X to K to taper. IMHO K is the worst. I think switching to L or V makes more sense, but different things work for different people.

 

I can see how Dr. Peart's method would work if you are very brave! And if nothing does wrong. And if you know V is going to work well for you. But, if something does go wrong and you find out V is not the right drug for you then you are going to pay for that fast cross for a long, long time. So, I like the slow method better.

 

I decided against switching from X to K because I saw more negatives than positives in that. K can create some unique problems for some people and is not really very slow anyway, so I decided to stay away from it. Also, Ashton switches everybody to V unless they are on L already. That seems to be the most tried-and-true method. Of course, there will be exceptions. There always are.

 

I hope you and SG can work out a dosing schedule. I tried to understand what you wrote about dosing just now but am too foggy-brained to understand it this morning! My general advice would be to get as even as you can and that getting the K spaced evenly is much more important than getting the V spaced evenly.

 

FYI: My middle-of-the-night dose is off by as much as 2 1/2 hours because I don't set an alarm for it. (Heaven forbid I'd have an alarm in the middle of the night!) The more slow benzo you have, the less you are going to feel it if you are off schedule. One morning I woke up and found my 11PM dose still sitting on the kitchen counter. After freaking out, I took it with my morning dose and thanked God it was Librium, not Xanax. Now I take my night dose at 10PM when I am more alert and less likely to imagine I took a dose without really taking it.

 

Gardener or Anybody?

 

I am dosing 4 times a day now and it helped with interdose W/D for a little bit, but now that my dose is getting lower, 0.35mg/24hrs, the W/D is ramping up. Do you think it might help alleviate the symptoms if I medicated every 4hrs rather than 6hrs? thanks, Rose

[[Ul...]]

I think if you have a cut that is working then when it starts to get too big you'll know and make the change.  You can also be proactive and reduce your cut based on percentage regardless of symptom increase.  Picking a percentage and sticking with it is a way to mimic what is really going on.  Taper curves are a gentle arc shape and cutting by percentage is an easy way to create a very similar shape (until near the very end, which you don't need to worry about yet).

 

I have a lot of trouble with knowing when a cut is too big because I have have flare ups of physical and mental symptoms that I had before the benzo (mainly neuropathy and insomnia and some panic)  that mimic w/d symptoms. So I don't know if I'm going too fast or if it's the old junk come back again. But this taper is so slow it is crushing my spirit. I want to go faster. I'm going to try to keep pushing until I hit 8%/month. Maybe 10%. Or try to.

 

Do you think that once I am off the X and tapering the L I will be able to go faster? I actually tapered from about 1.8mg X to about 1.3mg X fairly rapidly and with tolerable anxiety, really not bad at all. Then the sh** hit the fan. I held a month and saw no improvement and no relief. In fact, I think I was getting worse. I then micro-tapered for a bit and saw no difference. Finally I did my half crossover and got some relief. It actually felt like an up dose, so I wonder how accurate those equivalencies really are. I've been tapering with pain since then, but I have days when I can function pretty normally. These last two days have been bad, though, especially the neuropathy.

 

Sometimes I think I should go faster just to get it over with. Tell me that's crazy so I don't do it!

 

Yeah, definitely don't push it.  That is where it really gets bad.  I held for six weeks once during my taper and it seemed like I got nothing out of it, but I did.  I think the brain is always working on correcting things so no time really goes to waste.

 

I think it will be good for you when the X is gone.  You need to dose 5x...that alone is a pain.  L is a good drug to taper, just like V.  I doubt it would allow you to go faster though.  Everything I see points to going slower at lower levels.  That's why it is so important to focus on feeling well rather than getting to zero.

 

Thanks, SG. I just don't understand why I have to go so much slower than everybody else and still I have so much pain. It makes me think it can't possibly be the taper. 

 

You're going faster than me, Gard!!  I'm going ZERO and have been for quite a while. It does stink, but at least you're moving in the right direction. Keep the faith!!

 

Jeff

[[Ma...]]

SG,

Thank you! I can definitely already feel an improvement with interdose wd. I really hope I can do a complete C/O and dose only three times a day. As always, I hope for the best and prepare for the worst (having to go back to K completely or only tolerating a small c/o).

 

That is not correct. I am foggy. My math must have been off. I didn't cut Sunday's pills yet. I hope tomorrow's aren't wrong.

 

This is what I meant to do for Sunday. I will put dose in mgs and grams. The first dose of K I won't put in mg because I know it's right because I am just cutting a .5mg in half and making sure it is the correct weight to equal the avg weight of .5mg pills. The other K doses are 1mg K pills avg weight of .174g. V pills I won't add because that I know is right and you confirmed it. My dose was originally 2.75mg K so on Sunday I should be on 2.05mg K and 14mg V right?

 

D1 .5mg K

D2 .3mg K .053G

D3 .3mg .053g

D4 .3mg .053g

D5 .3mg .053g

D6 .35mg .060g

I just realized when I write this before I accidentally put .053g for last dose instead of .060g. I never have anyone check my math. Good thing I asked. I am sorry for the confusion. I am so foggy. If you don't mind checking what I did for tomorrow and Sat, I would really appreciate it. For those days I am doing 2.15mg K and 12mg V.

 

D1 .5mg K

D2 .35mg K .06g +  .045g V

D3 .3mg K .052g

D4 .3mg K .052g + .06g V

D5 .35mg K .06g

D6 .35mg K .06g + .075g V

 

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Jeff,

Good to see you! I hope you are doing better. Always thinking of you and wishing you well!

 

rhb,

I hope you have been feeling better! I am a rapid metabolizer of K. I think I metabolize more like most metabolize X. That's why I am trying to cross over to V. I am glad interdose wd hasn't been too big of an issue for you. You are at a low dose. For me the interdose wd kept getting worse. Making more doses a day helped me, but since I am at 2.75mg and dosing 6/7 times a day, I won't be able to dose more as I get lower. I would dose more often if I were you. I hope it gets better!

 

XO Maya

[[pr...]]

Also, Ashton switches everybody to V unless they are on L already.

 

hey guys, what benzo does "L" stand for? is that Lorazepam?

 

oh God, how i wish i did this the way Maya is doing it. i went back on the klonopin in 2002 -- and have been on benzo's most of my teenage and adult life. i'm done!