Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

SG,

I am starting my c/o tonight. For my last dose I am adding 3mg of V for . 15mg of K. I know I said I would add to morning and night, but I decided to just do one dose at first. I felt more comfortable doing that because my body in the past has not liked when I have changed several doses. I am more cautious right now because of my stomach. I will reevaluate in 2 days and probably add the same to the dose that is 12 hours from this one. That is OK, right? I know for 3mg of K to V, Ashton switches one dose . 5mg of K for 10mg of V every week for two weeks. Then she starts adding 5mg of V for .5 mg of K. My stomach and sleep still have not been good. My stomach in is doing OK now. I am hoping I get some sleep and my stomach doesn't wake me up. I have not being have any other issues. Cutting or holding have both made no difference. My acupuncturist is helping. I had a question about dosing. I always dosed at set times of the day. More recently, when the interdose wd became really horrible, I started dosing every 3 hours. Dosing times are pretty similar each day. Do you think it would be better to have set times again? The average weight for my 10mg V pills was . 150g. They were much more consistent in weight than my K pills. They also weigh less. My . 5mg pills avg weight is.169g and 1mg.174g. Is that normal? Thank you you so much!

 

XO Maya

 

Be ready to be heavily sedated for a while, Maya.  It will wear off.  If you are going to dose 3x a day with the V it would be better to add 1mg to each dose instead of 3mg to one dose, but the way you are doing it will also work.  It would also be better to remove .025mg K from each of your six K doses rather than removing .15mg from one dose.  But again the way you are doing it will also work.

 

On the dose time question, I don't understand.  If you dose every three hours then did you divide your dose into eight doses?  Or did you keep the same dose size and dose every three hours for part of the day and much longer in other parts of the day.  I believe in keeping blood levels even so the former would be great and the latter not so much, although if it is working that is hard to argue with.

 

Your pill weights sound typical to me.  The assumption I make about varying pill weights is that the amount of benzo in a pill goes up and down with the weight.  In other words, it might say .5mg on the pill, but really the amount of K in the pill varies with the weight.

[[...]]

I think my little brain can handle that SG.  Just to make sure because I'm freakin neurotic -  I'm currently at .127g, cutting .001g would be .126g and then .125g etc.?

 

Exactly.  Drop it down .001g with each cut.  So .127g, then three days later .126g, then three days later .125g, and so on.  Ideally we would want you to cut .00033g every day (to equal .001g every three days).  Switching to liquid would allow you to do this, but the scale does not - it is limited this way.  So instead we punt and cut .001g every three days.

[[ga...]]

I see. Thank you for providing the link. The number of significant figures reported depends on the measuring devices that were used for the study.  This is only 1 significant figure.  I imagine that they were not concerned with high accuracy. I am surprised that a range was not provided though. I am sure the value represents what they determined as the solubility.

 

As for the chlordizepoxide HCl. Most drugs are either weak acids or bases. For example, amines are weak bases, and many drugs are administered as amine salts. These salts are usually odorless white crystalline solids.  They are much more soluble in water than a neutral amine.  When administered as a salt, the solubility and dissolution rate of the drug is increased. This is because they are ionic and will dissolve well in aqueous fluids. Diphenhydramine is an antihistamine (found in medications) that is a liquid--it is very oily. When converted to an amine salt it is formulated into  medication. Benadryl is diphenhydramine hydrochloride. which is represented as (C₆H₅)₂CHOCH₂CH₂NH(CH₃)₂⁺ Cl^-

 

That's interesting.  So does that mean Librium can be made into chlordiazepoxide HCl to dissolve better in water, yet still essentially be Librium in the body?  Is chlordiazepoxide HCl still Librium?  I've noticed a lot of drugs have "HCl" at the end of their names.

 

 

My bottle says chlordiazepoxide by Barr. But this link says it's Barr makes chlordiazepoxide HCI. Should have kept the leaflet.

 

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=e3ff8641-ae8a-4016-acb1-cb1b7890f5ed

 

Dailymed is great, by the way, if you are looking for what exactly are the fillers/binders/etc. in a med, which I always do to avoid grain-based starches. Nice to have a somewhat accurate collection all in one place.

[[...]]

I see. Thank you for providing the link. The number of significant figures reported depends on the measuring devices that were used for the study.  This is only 1 significant figure.  I imagine that they were not concerned with high accuracy. I am surprised that a range was not provided though. I am sure the value represents what they determined as the solubility.

 

As for the chlordizepoxide HCl. Most drugs are either weak acids or bases. For example, amines are weak bases, and many drugs are administered as amine salts. These salts are usually odorless white crystalline solids.  They are much more soluble in water than a neutral amine.  When administered as a salt, the solubility and dissolution rate of the drug is increased. This is because they are ionic and will dissolve well in aqueous fluids. Diphenhydramine is an antihistamine (found in medications) that is a liquid--it is very oily. When converted to an amine salt it is formulated into  medication. Benadryl is diphenhydramine hydrochloride. which is represented as (C₆H₅)₂CHOCH₂CH₂NH(CH₃)₂⁺ Cl^-

 

That's interesting.  So does that mean Librium can be made into chlordiazepoxide HCl to dissolve better in water, yet still essentially be Librium in the body?  Is chlordiazepoxide HCl still Librium?  I've noticed a lot of drugs have "HCl" at the end of their names.

 

 

My bottle says chlordiazepoxide by Barr. But this link says it's Barr makes chlordiazepoxide HCI. Should have kept the leaflet.

 

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=e3ff8641-ae8a-4016-acb1-cb1b7890f5ed

 

Dailymed is great, by the way, if you are looking for what exactly are the fillers/binders/etc. in a med, which I always do to avoid grain-based starches. Nice to have a somewhat accurate collection all in one place.

 

Ahhh, the plot thickens.  I'd call your pharmacist and confirm exactly what is in your bottle.  I'll bet it is L HCl.  If L HCl (I'm tired of writing out "chlordiazepoxide" ) is much more water-soluble than pure L yet is still Librium and is the compound actually used, then that would explain how Jouyban could measure such a low solubility yet people here are able to dilute it with water.  I'd really like to hear what Anne thinks about this.

[[ga...]]

I see. Thank you for providing the link. The number of significant figures reported depends on the measuring devices that were used for the study.  This is only 1 significant figure.  I imagine that they were not concerned with high accuracy. I am surprised that a range was not provided though. I am sure the value represents what they determined as the solubility.

 

As for the chlordizepoxide HCl. Most drugs are either weak acids or bases. For example, amines are weak bases, and many drugs are administered as amine salts. These salts are usually odorless white crystalline solids.  They are much more soluble in water than a neutral amine.  When administered as a salt, the solubility and dissolution rate of the drug is increased. This is because they are ionic and will dissolve well in aqueous fluids. Diphenhydramine is an antihistamine (found in medications) that is a liquid--it is very oily. When converted to an amine salt it is formulated into  medication. Benadryl is diphenhydramine hydrochloride. which is represented as (C₆H₅)₂CHOCH₂CH₂NH(CH₃)₂⁺ Cl^-

 

That's interesting.  So does that mean Librium can be made into chlordiazepoxide HCl to dissolve better in water, yet still essentially be Librium in the body?  Is chlordiazepoxide HCl still Librium?  I've noticed a lot of drugs have "HCl" at the end of their names.

 

 

My bottle says chlordiazepoxide by Barr. But this link says it's Barr makes chlordiazepoxide HCI. Should have kept the leaflet.

 

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=e3ff8641-ae8a-4016-acb1-cb1b7890f5ed

 

Dailymed is great, by the way, if you are looking for what exactly are the fillers/binders/etc. in a med, which I always do to avoid grain-based starches. Nice to have a somewhat accurate collection all in one place.

 

Ahhh, the plot thickens.  I'd call your pharmacist and confirm exactly what is in your bottle.  I'll bet it is L HCl.  If L HCl (I'm tired of writing out "chlordiazepoxide" ) is much more water-soluble than pure L yet is still Librium and is the compound actually used, then that would explain how Jouyban could measure such a low solubility yet people here are able to dilute it with water.  I'd really like to hear what Anne thinks about this.

 

I'm with you on that terrible name, chlordiazepoxide!  

 

Interesting about the whole HCI thing. I wonder why they make it into HCI, anyway??  There must be some biochemical reason. Easier to absorb, maybe?

[[...]]

From your link, it says this...

 

"Chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is 7-chloro-2- (methylamino)-5-phenyl-3H-1, 4-benzodiazepine 4-oxide hydrochloride. A white to practically white crystalline substance, it is soluble in water. It is unstable in solution and the powder must be protected from light."

 

They referred to it as "chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride" not just "chlordiazepoxide."  Then they say, "it is soluble in water" because it is - pure L is the one that isn't.  In the link I posted yesterday, which had the Hoffmann-LaRoche data, there were two sections: one for pure L and one for L HCl.  The water solubility of L HCl was much higher.  We need to get to the bottom of what is going on here.

[[Ma...]]

 

Be ready to be heavily sedated for a while, Maya.  It will wear off.  If you are going to dose 3x a day with the V it would be better to add 1mg to each dose instead of 3mg to one dose, but the way you are doing it will also work.  It would also be better to remove .025mg K from each of your six K doses rather than removing .15mg from one dose.  But again the way you are doing it will also work.

 

On the dose time question, I don't understand.  If you dose every three hours then did you divide your dose into eight doses?  Or did you keep the same dose size and dose every three hours for part of the day and much longer in other parts of the day.  I believe in keeping blood levels even so the former would be great and the latter not so much, although if it is working that is hard to argue with.

 

Your pill weights sound typical to me.  The assumption I make about varying pill weights is that the amount of benzo in a pill goes up and down with the weight.  In other words, it might say .5mg on the pill, but really the amount of K in the pill varies with the weight.

SG,

I am prepared for it, but I am not so sure I will be heavily sedated. Meds don't usually affect me as strongly as others. Also I will metabolize V faster than most. I am also a rapid metabolizer of CY2C19. I do take protonix which is an inhibitor of CY34A, but even more so of CY2C19. Also there are the active metbolites, which I should metabolize normally. So, I am not sure. Unfortunately, I only have 10mg V pills. My pdoc will give me smaller ones when I see him in like two weeks. He wouldn't last time because he wanted to do a direct c/o from K to V and I was on 3mg, so he rxed 6 10mg pills a day. Cutting them into 3mg was annoying. They crumble more than the K pills. I don't want to remove from all my doses. I know to you this doesn't make sense, but my body responds much better when I remove from only. I really don't want to change more than two doses at most at a time. Also my doses aren't even 1-2 are .5mg 3-5 are .41mg and the last one is now .35mg because I took away .15mg and added 3mg V. I haven't noticed a real difference. I slept better last night. It wasn't great. I woke up several times due to my stomach. I was able to fall back asleep. I don't know if the V helped or my stomach is doing better or probably both. I did have some heart racing because my body was confused about lack of K, but it didn't last long. I feel changes right away. Right now, I don't feel any different than yesterday at this time, except I feel a little better. Do you think on Sat I should make my first dose .35mg K and 3mg V? In Ashton's schedule from 3mg K to 60mg V she switches .5mg k for 10mg V. Should be trying to switch the same amount in a week? I don't want to go to fast, but also don't want to go slower than needed. Also of course I will adjust accordingly. I don't understand when I will know how well I tolerate it, how much etc. I guess it's different for each person and I will just wait and see? I don't want to make a change more than once every 3 days, 2 at most. Also I don't want to change more than two doses at a time. Right now, I am planning on dosing V 3 times. I may even need to dose 4 times depending on how quickly I metabolize it. I am really hoping to c/o as much as I can.

 

Up until I started dosing K 6x a day, I had exact times if the day I dosed it. Now I don't dose at exact times. I usually dose like this 9am, 12pm, 3pm, 6pm, 9pm, 12am. I won't wake up to dose because I am afraid of not falling back asleep. I take Benadryl and hydroxyzine to help me sleep and they also help with my anxiety and interdose wd. If I wake up at 8am I would dose 8am, 11am, 2pm, 5pm, 8pm, 11pm. I still get interdose wd and it would be better if I didn't go so long between my first and last dose. Also I really need a longer half life hence the V c/o.

 

I know my K pill weight are normal. I have been using them with the scale since August and my avg weights are around the same as everyone else on KK thread. My 10mg V pill avg weight was .150g which is a lot lighter than K pills. I was just wondering if that was usually the case. Maybe also has to do with the brand. They also were much more accurate than K pills. There wasn't such a difference in pill weights. I am sure it is fine. I am aware the amount of benzo is based on the weight.

[[ca...]]

 

Be ready to be heavily sedated for a while, Maya.  It will wear off.  If you are going to dose 3x a day with the V it would be better to add 1mg to each dose instead of 3mg to one dose, but the way you are doing it will also work.  It would also be better to remove .025mg K from each of your six K doses rather than removing .15mg from one dose.  But again the way you are doing it will also work.

 

On the dose time question, I don't understand.  If you dose every three hours then did you divide your dose into eight doses?  Or did you keep the same dose size and dose every three hours for part of the day and much longer in other parts of the day.  I believe in keeping blood levels even so the former would be great and the latter not so much, although if it is working that is hard to argue with.

 

Your pill weights sound typical to me.  The assumption I make about varying pill weights is that the amount of benzo in a pill goes up and down with the weight.  In other words, it might say .5mg on the pill, but really the amount of K in the pill varies with the weight.

SG,

I am prepared for it, but I am not so sure I will be heavily sedated. Meds don't usually affect me as strongly as others. Also I will metabolize V faster than most. I am also a rapid metabolizer of CY2C19. I do take protonix which is an inhibitor of CY34A, but even more so of CY2C19. Also there are the active metbolites, which I should metabolize normally. So, I am not sure. Unfortunately, I only have 10mg V pills. My pdoc will give me smaller ones when I see him in like two weeks. He wouldn't last time because he wanted to do a direct c/o from K to V and I was on 3mg, so he rxed 6 10mg pills a day. Cutting them into 3mg was annoying. They crumble more than the K pills. I don't want to remove from all my doses. I know to you this doesn't make sense, but my body responds much better when I remove from only. I really don't want to change more than two doses at most at a time. Also my doses aren't even 1-2 are .5mg 3-5 are .41mg and the last one is now .35mg because I took away .15mg and added 3mg V. I haven't noticed a real difference. I slept better last night. It wasn't great. I woke up several times due to my stomach. I was able to fall back asleep. I don't know if the V helped or my stomach is doing better or probably both. I did have some heart racing because my body was confused about lack of K, but it didn't last long. I feel changes right away. Right now, I don't feel any different than yesterday at this time, except I feel a little better. Do you think on Sat I should make my first dose .35mg K and 3mg V? In Ashton's schedule from 3mg K to 60mg V she switches .5mg k for 10mg V. Should be trying to switch the same amount in a week? I don't want to go to fast, but also don't want to go slower than needed. Also of course I will adjust accordingly. I don't understand when I will know how well I tolerate it, how much etc. I guess it's different for each person and I will just wait and see? I don't want to make a change more than once every 3 days, 2 at most. Also I don't want to change more than two doses at a time. Right now, I am planning on dosing V 3 times. I may even need to dose 4 times depending on how quickly I metabolize it. I am really hoping to c/o as much as I can.

 

Up until I started dosing K 6x a day, I had exact times if the day I dosed it. Now I don't dose at exact times. I usually dose like this 9am, 12pm, 3pm, 6pm, 9pm, 12am. I won't wake up to dose because I am afraid of not falling back asleep. I take Benadryl and hydroxyzine to help me sleep and they also help with my anxiety and interdose wd. If I wake up at 8am I would dose 8am, 11am, 2pm, 5pm, 8pm, 11pm. I still get interdose wd and it would be better if I didn't go so long between my first and last dose. Also I really need a longer half life hence the V c/o.

 

I know my K pill weight are normal. I have been using them with the scale since August and my avg weights are around the same as everyone else on KK thread. My 10mg V pill avg weight was .150g which is a lot lighter than K pills. I was just wondering if that was usually the case. Maybe also has to do with the brand. They also were much more accurate than K pills. There wasn't such a difference in pill weights. I am sure it is fine. I am aware the amount of benzo is based on the weight.

Maya, i am using TEVA 10 mg Valium if your using Teva i could weigh some of mine for you to get the weight ~CD

 

[[...]]

Ahhh, the plot thickens.  I'd call your pharmacist and confirm exactly what is in your bottle.  I'll bet it is L HCl.  If L HCl (I'm tired of writing out "chlordiazepoxide" ) is much more water-soluble than pure L yet is still Librium and is the compound actually used, then that would explain how Jouyban could measure such a low solubility yet people here are able to dilute it with water.  I'd really like to hear what Anne thinks about this.

 

I'm with you on that terrible name, chlordiazepoxide!  

 

Interesting about the whole HCI thing. I wonder why they make it into HCI, anyway??  There must be some biochemical reason. Easier to absorb, maybe?

 

That might very well be the main reason - easier to absorb.  "Bioavailability."  Maybe it goes to work quicker and the body can use more of it in the HCl form?

[[...]]

SG,

I am prepared for it, but I am not so sure I will be heavily sedated. Meds don't usually affect me as strongly as others. Also I will metabolize V faster than most. I am also a rapid metabolizer of CY2C19. I do take protonix which is an inhibitor of CY34A, but even more so of CY2C19. Also there are the active metbolites, which I should metabolize normally. So, I am not sure. Unfortunately, I only have 10mg V pills. My pdoc will give me smaller ones when I see him in like two weeks. He wouldn't last time because he wanted to do a direct c/o from K to V and I was on 3mg, so he rxed 6 10mg pills a day. Cutting them into 3mg was annoying. They crumble more than the K pills. I don't want to remove from all my doses. I know to you this doesn't make sense, but my body responds much better when I remove from only. I really don't want to change more than two doses at most at a time. Also my doses aren't even 1-2 are .5mg 3-5 are .41mg and the last one is now .35mg because I took away .15mg and added 3mg V. I haven't noticed a real difference. I slept better last night. It wasn't great. I woke up several times due to my stomach. I was able to fall back asleep. I don't know if the V helped or my stomach is doing better or probably both. I did have some heart racing because my body was confused about lack of K, but it didn't last long. I feel changes right away. Right now, I don't feel any different than yesterday at this time, except I feel a little better. Do you think on Sat I should make my first dose .35mg K and 3mg V? In Ashton's schedule from 3mg K to 60mg V she switches .5mg k for 10mg V. Should be trying to switch the same amount in a week? I don't want to go to fast, but also don't want to go slower than needed. Also of course I will adjust accordingly. I don't understand when I will know how well I tolerate it, how much etc. I guess it's different for each person and I will just wait and see? I don't want to make a change more than once every 3 days, 2 at most. Also I don't want to change more than two doses at a time. Right now, I am planning on dosing V 3 times. I may even need to dose 4 times depending on how quickly I metabolize it. I am really hoping to c/o as much as I can.

 

Up until I started dosing K 6x a day, I had exact times if the day I dosed it. Now I don't dose at exact times. I usually dose like this 9am, 12pm, 3pm, 6pm, 9pm, 12am. I won't wake up to dose because I am afraid of not falling back asleep. I take Benadryl and hydroxyzine to help me sleep and they also help with my anxiety and interdose wd. If I wake up at 8am I would dose 8am, 11am, 2pm, 5pm, 8pm, 11pm. I still get interdose wd and it would be better if I didn't go so long between my first and last dose. Also I really need a longer half life hence the V c/o.

 

I know my K pill weight are normal. I have been using them with the scale since August and my avg weights are around the same as everyone else on KK thread. My 10mg V pill avg weight was .150g which is a lot lighter than K pills. I was just wondering if that was usually the case. Maybe also has to do with the brand. They also were much more accurate than K pills. There wasn't such a difference in pill weights. I am sure it is fine. I am aware the amount of benzo is based on the weight.

 

Not feeling any different is a great sign.  That is the goal when crossing.  Just go by feel and swap in 3mg at a time.  3mg is ~5%.

 

Nine hours is a long time to go without a dose for you, but waking to dose might not be a good idea.  IDK, ironically you might sleep better if you woke to dose.

[[an...]]

I see. Thank you for providing the link. The number of significant figures reported depends on the measuring devices that were used for the study.  This is only 1 significant figure.  I imagine that they were not concerned with high accuracy. I am surprised that a range was not provided though. I am sure the value represents what they determined as the solubility.

 

As for the chlordizepoxide HCl. Most drugs are either weak acids or bases. For example, amines are weak bases, and many drugs are administered as amine salts. These salts are usually odorless white crystalline solids.  They are much more soluble in water than a neutral amine.  When administered as a salt, the solubility and dissolution rate of the drug is increased. This is because they are ionic and will dissolve well in aqueous fluids. Diphenhydramine is an antihistamine (found in medications) that is a liquid--it is very oily. When converted to an amine salt it is formulated into  medication. Benadryl is diphenhydramine hydrochloride. which is represented as (C₆H₅)₂CHOCH₂CH₂NH(CH₃)₂⁺ Cl^-

 

That's interesting.  So does that mean Librium can be made into chlordiazepoxide HCl to dissolve better in water, yet still essentially be Librium in the body?  Is chlordiazepoxide HCl still Librium?  I've noticed a lot of drugs have "HCl" at the end of their names.

 

 

My bottle says chlordiazepoxide by Barr. But this link says it's Barr makes chlordiazepoxide HCI. Should have kept the leaflet.

 

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=e3ff8641-ae8a-4016-acb1-cb1b7890f5ed

 

Dailymed is great, by the way, if you are looking for what exactly are the fillers/binders/etc. in a med, which I always do to avoid grain-based starches. Nice to have a somewhat accurate collection all in one place.

 

Ahhh, the plot thickens.  I'd call your pharmacist and confirm exactly what is in your bottle.  I'll bet it is L HCl.  If L HCl (I'm tired of writing out "chlordiazepoxide" ) is much more water-soluble than pure L yet is still Librium and is the compound actually used, then that would explain how Jouyban could measure such a low solubility yet people here are able to dilute it with water.  I'd really like to hear what Anne thinks about this.

 

I agree that it is most likely L HCl. Many drugs are administered as salts. As a salt it is soluble in aqueous fluids and therefore, improves absorption. Librium has a basic nitrogen so the hydrochloride is used to convert the weak base to a salt. Converting it to a salt also increases the shelf life of the drug. Most amines are easily oxidized, but the salt is not.  From what I understand it is also easier for the manufacturers to formulate the salt into a tablet (powder) than the typical large non-polar molecule.

 

As far as absorption rate and the way the drug is administered, I would need to read my biochemistry text which I have not touched in years.

[[Sh...]]

Hi SG,

I would like to cut 5%.  I believe it might be (on the gram scale) .121 grams? 

.375 mg = .127 g on my scale.

 

Yes, those numbers all make sense to me.  .121g is 5% of .127g so that would be a 5% cut.  You can do what you want, but I'd encourage you to break the 5% into smaller cuts as it will be easier on you even though the rate won't change.

 

:thumbsup:

 

This is called the micro-tapering thread because we make micro-cuts every day instead of big cuts every 2 weeks. He is one of the math gurus. I am the try-to-make-my-taper-as-weird-as-possible-and-then-ask-for-help non-guru.

 

Gard

And trust me, you want SG doing your math, not me!      DITTO!!    He saves my butt!  Shaani

[[Ma...]]

SG,

I am prepared for it, but I am not so sure I will be heavily sedated. Meds don't usually affect me as strongly as others. Also I will metabolize V faster than most. I am also a rapid metabolizer of CY2C19. I do take protonix which is an inhibitor of CY34A, but even more so of CY2C19. Also there are the active metbolites, which I should metabolize normally. So, I am not sure. Unfortunately, I only have 10mg V pills. My pdoc will give me smaller ones when I see him in like two weeks. He wouldn't last time because he wanted to do a direct c/o from K to V and I was on 3mg, so he rxed 6 10mg pills a day. Cutting them into 3mg was annoying. They crumble more than the K pills. I don't want to remove from all my doses. I know to you this doesn't make sense, but my body responds much better when I remove from only. I really don't want to change more than two doses at most at a time. Also my doses aren't even 1-2 are .5mg 3-5 are .41mg and the last one is now .35mg because I took away .15mg and added 3mg V. I haven't noticed a real difference. I slept better last night. It wasn't great. I woke up several times due to my stomach. I was able to fall back asleep. I don't know if the V helped or my stomach is doing better or probably both. I did have some heart racing because my body was confused about lack of K, but it didn't last long. I feel changes right away. Right now, I don't feel any different than yesterday at this time, except I feel a little better. Do you think on Sat I should make my first dose .35mg K and 3mg V? In Ashton's schedule from 3mg K to 60mg V she switches .5mg k for 10mg V. Should be trying to switch the same amount in a week? I don't want to go to fast, but also don't want to go slower than needed. Also of course I will adjust accordingly. I don't understand when I will know how well I tolerate it, how much etc. I guess it's different for each person and I will just wait and see? I don't want to make a change more than once every 3 days, 2 at most. Also I don't want to change more than two doses at a time. Right now, I am planning on dosing V 3 times. I may even need to dose 4 times depending on how quickly I metabolize it. I am really hoping to c/o as much as I can.

 

Up until I started dosing K 6x a day, I had exact times if the day I dosed it. Now I don't dose at exact times. I usually dose like this 9am, 12pm, 3pm, 6pm, 9pm, 12am. I won't wake up to dose because I am afraid of not falling back asleep. I take Benadryl and hydroxyzine to help me sleep and they also help with my anxiety and interdose wd. If I wake up at 8am I would dose 8am, 11am, 2pm, 5pm, 8pm, 11pm. I still get interdose wd and it would be better if I didn't go so long between my first and last dose. Also I really need a longer half life hence the V c/o.

 

I know my K pill weight are normal. I have been using them with the scale since August and my avg weights are around the same as everyone else on KK thread. My 10mg V pill avg weight was .150g which is a lot lighter than K pills. I was just wondering if that was usually the case. Maybe also has to do with the brand. They also were much more accurate than K pills. There wasn't such a difference in pill weights. I am sure it is fine. I am aware the amount of benzo is based on the weight.

 

Not feeling any different is a great sign.  That is the goal when crossing.  Just go by feel and swap in 3mg at a time.  3mg is ~5%.

 

Nine hours is a long time to go without a dose for you, but waking to dose might not be a good idea.  IDK, ironically you might sleep better if you woke to dose.

SG

I thought that it was a good sign. That makes me happy. I still don't feel any different. I feel tired from lack of sleep, but not sedated. As long as this continues, I plan to swap .15mg K for 3mg V from my 2nd dose on Sun. I will just go by feel. If I swap 9mg a month that is almost 17% of my dose (2.75mg K). In Ashton's schedule for 3mg of K to 60mg of V she swaps 10mg of V which is almost 17%. For my third swap do you think it's ok to add 2mg V to 2nd and 2mg to last dose? I could also add 3mg to midday dose, maybe 4th dose? I am getting ahead of myself, as I often do. I am hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst.

 

That is a very long time for me. That is how I have always dosed because of my issues falling back asleep sometimes. I hadn't had sleep issues in awhile until recently. That is definitely mainly due to my stomach waking me up. I don't know if dosing during that time would help. If my sleep issues continue, I would be willing to try. My tired and foggy brain can't think of how to do that. I am really hoping the V will help with interdose wd etc. I truly appreciate all your help. You have been a life savior.

 

CD,

You are always so helpful! I don't have teva V pills, just K pills. I am sure it's fine. I was just curious what others V pills weighed.

 

Gardener,

Thank you! So far so good. I don't feel any different. I switched a small amount. I am glad your c/o helped you so much. I hope I don't get depression or if I do it doesn't last. That was by far my worst sxs in tol wd. It was so awful. It sounds like you made the right choice with your cross. You can always cross more later. We can do this! I hope your son had a good birthday!

 

XO Maya 

 

[[ga...]]

 

As far as absorption rate and the way the drug is administered, I would need to read my biochemistry text which I have not touched in years.

 

I can think of a good reason to touch an old biochemistry textbook. You could use it as a doorstop!

 

Or, better yet, you could use it as a pressing book to preserve all these beautiful autumn leaves.

 

Did you know the weather affects the underlying leaf color? We are having the most beautiful fall I've seen in years. I try to get outside every day to fight off the benzo blues. Even with cloudy skies and sprinkles today, I enjoyed getting out because I  found the most beautiful leaves everywhere I looked.

[[ga...]]

 

Nine hours is a long time to go without a dose for you, but waking to dose might not be a good idea.  IDK, ironically you might sleep better if you woke to dose.

 

Ha ha ha! But that actually is true for me! But I'm awake anyway because ever since my first pregnancy, (way back in the last millennium) nature calls in the middle of the night. I just take the dose whenever that happens. The time of the dose can be pretty random that way, but no way am I setting an alarm to jolt me awake at 3AM!

[[ga...]]

 

Gardener,

Thank you! So far so good. I don't feel any different. I switched a small amount. I am glad your c/o helped you so much. I hope I don't get depression or if I do it doesn't last. That was by far my worst sxs in tol wd. It was so awful. It sounds like you made the right choice with your cross. You can always cross more later. We can do this! I hope your son had a good birthday!

 

XO Maya 

 

I think you'll be fine. Most people say that the depression and sedation from the slower benzos are transient. I decided to backstep because I had significant life events causing depression and didn't need that extra dose of L adding to it. I was actually feeling pretty good half crossed and only kept crossing because I wanted to cut down on dosing so often. Well, thanks to SG un-mixing my math, I'm down to dosing 5 times/day now and that's not so bad. Just removing one dose makes me feel much less like my life revolves around the dosing.

 

When I asked, my son said his party was, "fine." (He's just  a tower of information.) I pressed him and he said he had two lite drinks of some kind, not sure what, and some pizza. He went with an older friend who did the driving. A very sensible way to turn 21.  Now both of my kids have safely crossed that threshold. And with what they see me going through with a prescription med taken as prescribed, neither seems inclined to mess up their brains with drugs or alcohol. So there's one good thing that has come from this nightmare.

 

[[zu...]]

Hi , I am new here. I am on Xanax for 3 mounths 0,25 mg regular Xanax dividend in 2 dose and Xanax XR 0,5 mg for night. I am Really affraid to start my tapering, i have to take care of my little daughter and household. Maybe I would like to try microtapering. How it works with Xanax XR ? It is the same like regular Xanax? I have read here about using propylen glycol to dissolve Xanax for microtapering, can I do This also with Xanax XR?

Thank you very much for your advices:-)

My Xanax doses now:

7:00 0,125 mg regular X 12:30 0,125 mg regular X and 19:00 X XR

[[...]]

SG

I thought that it was a good sign. That makes me happy. I still don't feel any different. I feel tired from lack of sleep, but not sedated. As long as this continues, I plan to swap .15mg K for 3mg V from my 2nd dose on Sun. I will just go by feel. If I swap 9mg a month that is almost 17% of my dose (2.75mg K). In Ashton's schedule for 3mg of K to 60mg of V she swaps 10mg of V which is almost 17%. For my third swap do you think it's ok to add 2mg V to 2nd and 2mg to last dose? I could also add 3mg to midday dose, maybe 4th dose? I am getting ahead of myself, as I often do. I am hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst.

 

That is a very long time for me. That is how I have always dosed because of my issues falling back asleep sometimes. I hadn't had sleep issues in awhile until recently. That is definitely mainly due to my stomach waking me up. I don't know if dosing during that time would help. If my sleep issues continue, I would be willing to try. My tired and foggy brain can't think of how to do that. I am really hoping the V will help with interdose wd etc. I truly appreciate all your help. You have been a life savior.

 

CD,

You are always so helpful! I don't have teva V pills, just K pills. I am sure it's fine. I was just curious what others V pills weighed.

 

Gardener,

Thank you! So far so good. I don't feel any different. I switched a small amount. I am glad your c/o helped you so much. I hope I don't get depression or if I do it doesn't last. That was by far my worst sxs in tol wd. It was so awful. It sounds like you made the right choice with your cross. You can always cross more later. We can do this! I hope your son had a good birthday!

 

XO Maya 

 

I think it was a very good sign.  If you had cut .15mg K and not added any V you would have felt it within a day, right?  You seem to have successfully replaced it with V and not felt anything.  Just like your 2.5% cuts, you can be a little short and not feel it.

 

V has its own dosing so you need to pick three or four.  It's a guess.  Adding 3mg seems to work fine for you, but 2mg should also work.  You'd probably swap more frequently.

 

How about this for sleep.  Have a dose ready for the middle of the night.  If you wake up, take it.  If you remain asleep, take it in the morning.  We don't want to interrupt sleep, but nine hours is a very long time for you.  I'm thinking it might help you sleep.  It might help you all around.  A middle-of-the-night dose might be worth it when the span is nine hours and you feel interdose after three or four hours.

[[Ma...]]

 

 

I think it was a very good sign.  If you had cut .15mg K and not added any V you would have felt it within a day, right?  You seem to have successfully replaced it with V and not felt anything.  Just like your 2.5% cuts, you can be a little short and not feel it.

 

V has its own dosing so you need to pick three or four.  It's a guess.  Adding 3mg seems to work fine for you, but 2mg should also work.  You'd probably swap more frequently.

 

How about this for sleep.  Have a dose ready for the middle of the night.  If you wake up, take it.  If you remain asleep, take it in the morning.  We don't want to interrupt sleep, but nine hours is a very long time for you.  I'm thinking it might help you sleep.  It might help you all around.  A middle-of-the-night dose might be worth it when the span is nine hours and you feel interdose after three or four hours.

I 100% would have felt it a good deal yesterday morning. I say 24 hrs, but it is really usually within 12 hours that I feel cuts fully.

 

I am not sure if I will need to dose V 3 or 4 times. Most dose it two times, I think. My guess would be probably be 4 with the way I metabolize meds. I guess for now I will go with 3 and see what happens. I also think if I dose V four times with K, one of the V doses would have to be at a separate time then a K dose. It's confusing with all the doses. Also my 1mg K pills and 10mg V pills are so close in color. I want to be very careful with my c/o. I really want it to work and c/o as much V as possible. If I can I would like to do a full c/o. I will cross over another 3mg tomorrow morn. I will then consider adjusting. You're suggesting 2mg every other day instead of 3mg every 3 days? I would be willing to try it. I wish I had smaller pills. I think I see my pdoc in two weeks. It is somewhere around then. Then he will give me smaller V pill amounts. I don't want to call him now because I want to know better how I will tolerate the V. When I see him I will have to say I did a direct c/o. I can't say I am still taking both. I wish he would be ok with it, but it is what is. I am not liking having to cut 1mg K pills. I will just be grateful I saved them or I would have to do a direct c/o.

 

I think that is a good idea. You mean just take my first dose if I wake up in the middle of the night? I am sure it would help me. Nine hours is a very long time for me! The hydroxyzine and Benadryl do help with that. I also take melatonin, but that just affects sleep and not anxiety. Last night I took my last dose at 11. I feel asleep around 1 and I woke up around 7:30. I just took my morning dose then. I didn't wake up in the night at all. That is the first time in two weeks. I still could really use 8-9 hours of sleep like I was having, but at least it is better. I am tired. My stomach seems to finally be calming down.

 

 

[[Ma...]]

I think you'll be fine. Most people say that the depression and sedation from the slower benzos are transient. I decided to backstep because I had significant life events causing depression and didn't need that extra dose of L adding to it. I was actually feeling pretty good half crossed and only kept crossing because I wanted to cut down on dosing so often. Well, thanks to SG un-mixing my math, I'm down to dosing 5 times/day now and that's not so bad. Just removing one dose makes me feel much less like my life revolves around the dosing.

 

When I asked, my son said his party was, "fine." (He's just  a tower of information.) I pressed him and he said he had two lite drinks of some kind, not sure what, and some pizza. He went with an older friend who did the driving. A very sensible way to turn 21.  Now both of my kids have safely crossed that threshold. And with what they see me going through with a prescription med taken as prescribed, neither seems inclined to mess up their brains with drugs or alcohol. So there's one good thing that has come from this nightmare.

Gardener,

Thanks! I really hope so! I know you had some hard stuff going on. I think it was smart to stop the c/o then. That's great that you were able to remove a dose. I would love to remove a dose. I am cutting so many pills a day. If it helps, it is worth it. I definitely know what you mean about feeling your life revolves around dosing.

 

You have a good son! That is a very sensible way to turn 21. That is not what I was doing at 21. I, glad what you are going through can at least be a learning experience for them. I hope all is going with with your new therapist! If you get a chance I would love an update. I have therapy today and we are going to talk about some ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) strategies. It seems to tie in nicely with DBT. We have been talking a lot about values, lately. That is mentioned a lot in DBT, as well.

 

I am glad you are not setting an alarm. When I saw 3am on your schedule I was a bit surprised. I hope your sleep is improving and you are doing well!

 

XO Maya 

 

[[...]]

 

 

I think it was a very good sign.  If you had cut .15mg K and not added any V you would have felt it within a day, right?  You seem to have successfully replaced it with V and not felt anything.  Just like your 2.5% cuts, you can be a little short and not feel it.

 

V has its own dosing so you need to pick three or four.  It's a guess.  Adding 3mg seems to work fine for you, but 2mg should also work.  You'd probably swap more frequently.

 

How about this for sleep.  Have a dose ready for the middle of the night.  If you wake up, take it.  If you remain asleep, take it in the morning.  We don't want to interrupt sleep, but nine hours is a very long time for you.  I'm thinking it might help you sleep.  It might help you all around.  A middle-of-the-night dose might be worth it when the span is nine hours and you feel interdose after three or four hours.

I 100% would have felt it a good deal yesterday morning. I say 24 hrs, but it is really usually within 12 hours that I feel cuts fully.

 

I am not sure if I will need to dose V 3 or 4 times. Most dose it two times, I think. My guess would be probably be 4 with the way I metabolize meds. I guess for now I will go with 3 and see what happens. I also think if I dose V four times with K, one of the V doses would have to be at a separate time then a K dose. It's confusing with all the doses. Also my 1mg K pills and 10mg V pills are so close in color. I want to be very careful with my c/o. I really want it to work and c/o as much V as possible. If I can I would like to do a full c/o. I will cross over another 3mg tomorrow morn. I will then consider adjusting. You're suggesting 2mg every other day instead of 3mg every 3 days? I would be willing to try it. I wish I had smaller pills. I think I see my pdoc in two weeks. It is somewhere around then. Then he will give me smaller V pill amounts. I don't want to call him now because I want to know better how I will tolerate the V. When I see him I will have to say I did a direct c/o. I can't say I am still taking both. I wish he would be ok with it, but it is what is. I am not liking having to cut 1mg K pills. I will just be grateful I saved them or I would have to do a direct c/o.

 

I think that is a good idea. You mean just take my first dose if I wake up in the middle of the night? I am sure it would help me. Nine hours is a very long time for me! The hydroxyzine and Benadryl do help with that. I also take melatonin, but that just affects sleep and not anxiety. Last night I took my last dose at 11. I feel asleep around 1 and I woke up around 7:30. I just took my morning dose then. I didn't wake up in the night at all. That is the first time in two weeks. I still could really use 8-9 hours of sleep like I was having, but at least it is better. I am tired. My stomach seems to finally be calming down.

 

Three and six dose times go together and three might work and is the preferred number so I would definitely give three a try.

 

It is early still, but you seem to have no problem with swapping at a 1mg-a-day pace and you tolerated 3mg at once, so it is logical to think you'd be fine swapping 2mg every other day...1mg a day, 2mg every other day, 3mg every third day...they are all the same pace.  The fact that the 3mg swap has not affected you might mean you could do a full cross in 60 days or less.

[[ga...]]

Hi , I am new here. I am on Xanax for 3 mounths 0,25 mg regular Xanax dividend in 2 dose and Xanax XR 0,5 mg for night. I am Really affraid to start my tapering, i have to take care of my little daughter and household. Maybe I would like to try microtapering. How it works with Xanax XR ? It is the same like regular Xanax? I have read here about using propylen glycol to dissolve Xanax for microtapering, can I do This also with Xanax XR?

Thank you very much for your advices:-)

My Xanax doses now:

7:00 0,125 mg regular X 12:30 0,125 mg regular X and 19:00 X XR

 

Hi again, Zuzka and welcome. I replied to your post on the Xanax board. Glad to see you here!

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

 

Gardener,

Thanks! I really hope so! I know you had some hard stuff going on. I think it was smart to stop the c/o then. That's great that you were able to remove a dose. I would love to remove a dose. I am cutting so many pills a day. If it helps, it is worth it. I definitely know what you mean about feeling your life revolves around dosing.

 

You have a good son! That is a very sensible way to turn 21. That is not what I was doing at 21. I, glad what you are going through can at least be a learning experience for them. I hope all is going with with your new therapist! If you get a chance I would love an update. I have therapy today and we are going to talk about some ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) strategies. It seems to tie in nicely with DBT. We have been talking a lot about values, lately. That is mentioned a lot in DBT, as well.

 

I am glad you are not setting an alarm. When I saw 3am on your schedule I was a bit surprised. I hope your sleep is improving and you are doing well!

 

XO Maya 

 

I have a workbook on ACT and like it better than DBT so far. They really do overlap quite a bit, it seems. I just can't find a therapist here who even knows about ACT.

 

Yes, the 3AM is not exactly correct. It's an estimate. A wild estimate! It's whenever I wake up. This morning I dosed at 5AM.

 

I'm not sure what SG is saying to you about how to dose in the night. Do you tend to wake up? If you are going to occasionally move your morning dose earlier, into the night, I hope you are not waking as early as I do. I wake up every night, as early as 1AM and as late as 5:30AM so I have one of my 5 doses planned for the night.

 

If I wake at 1AM, I don't take the dose. That's too early. I go back to sleep and wait for the next time I wake up, which will happen. If I'm already awake at 1AM, I know it's going to be a bad night and I'm going to be awake many times that night, so I will have other chances to get closer to my 3AM goal. Once in awhile I actually hit the goal.

 

I'm so glad your crossover is going well! I think you will be able to drop to dosing 5 times when you get more V in there. It really is nice to have fewer doses. I feel like my day is more normal now.

[[an...]]

 

As far as absorption rate and the way the drug is administered, I would need to read my biochemistry text which I have not touched in years.

 

I can think of a good reason to touch an old biochemistry textbook. You could use it as a doorstop!

 

Or, better yet, you could use it as a pressing book to preserve all these beautiful autumn leaves.

 

Did you know the weather affects the underlying leaf color? We are having the most beautiful fall I've seen in years. I try to get outside every day to fight off the benzo blues. Even with cloudy skies and sprinkles today, I enjoyed getting out because I  found the most beautiful leaves everywhere I looked.

Hi Gardner,

 

Now it makes sense!!  Judging from last week's exam scores, I now realize the students are using their chemistry books as doorstops. They certainly are not reading them.   

 

Yes, this has been a beautiful fall. The reds are so vibrant. We have a bonsai Japanese maple, and the color is incredible. Enjoy this beautiful fall.

 

Anne

[[an...]]

Hi , I am new here. I am on Xanax for 3 mounths 0,25 mg regular Xanax dividend in 2 dose and Xanax XR 0,5 mg for night. I am Really affraid to start my tapering, i have to take care of my little daughter and household. Maybe I would like to try microtapering. How it works with Xanax XR ? It is the same like regular Xanax? I have read here about using propylen glycol to dissolve Xanax for microtapering, can I do This also with Xanax XR?

Thank you very much for your advices:-)

My Xanax doses now:

7:00 0,125 mg regular X 12:30 0,125 mg regular X and 19:00 X XR

 

Hi Zuzka,

 

A time released med should not be crushed. I am sure someone else that has experience with time release Xanax will chime in here. I would think you would need to get the non-time release Xanax to do a daily liquid taper.

 

Anne