Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Ma...]]

IDK what you should do.  If you think holding will help I'd hold, otherwise I'd make small exchanges and see how it goes.

SG,

I don't think holding will help, but I can't be sure. Also cutting didn't make it worse or better. I just hope V isn't harder on my stomach. I will see how I feel tomorrow and I will see what my acu says. I will start my c/o by Sun at the latest.  I will decide tomorrow what I am going to do. When I start my c/o it will be like we talked about before. I will start with a small exchange and go from there. Thank you!

[[...]]

These are some great ideas! I will have to think this over. I agree about Murphy's Law. And I don't want to be the guinea pig who is the first to try something!

 

I just thought of another option, I could have two liquids by my bed. Oh wait, bad plan. If I drink one only and it happens to be the L, then I have missed my X. The X is the one that matters to keep the most even, right? It's probably best to stick with one drink in the night and so what if I drop the cap somewhere. I actually do keep a syringe of water next to my bottle and use it to rinse and drink again in the middle of the night. It's all on my nightstand so I just sit up, drink, rinse, drink, and lie back down. The bottles, syringes, caps are sometimes in odd places in the morning, but the X is in me!

 

Anne mentioned on another thread that she takers her lorazepam whenever she wakes up and can be off by an hour or two and does OK. I was relieved to hear that, given how my middle of the night X is really somewhere between 2 and 4 AM. Sometimes even 5 AM. That's why I have been try to taper it away and only dose the X 4 times again like I did when I started. Maybe re-distributing the X to 4 doses will be the next thing I try, but when I am lower on X and the L is my main med.

 

I kind of like the idea of emptying the L capsule into your night liquid.  That seems like a good way to simplify night dosing.  I'm comfortable with the idea.  Can you think of any reason it would not work?

 

[[ga...]]

These are some great ideas! I will have to think this over. I agree about Murphy's Law. And I don't want to be the guinea pig who is the first to try something!

 

I just thought of another option, I could have two liquids by my bed. Oh wait, bad plan. If I drink one only and it happens to be the L, then I have missed my X. The X is the one that matters to keep the most even, right? It's probably best to stick with one drink in the night and so what if I drop the cap somewhere. I actually do keep a syringe of water next to my bottle and use it to rinse and drink again in the middle of the night. It's all on my nightstand so I just sit up, drink, rinse, drink, and lie back down. The bottles, syringes, caps are sometimes in odd places in the morning, but the X is in me!

 

Anne mentioned on another thread that she takers her lorazepam whenever she wakes up and can be off by an hour or two and does OK. I was relieved to hear that, given how my middle of the night X is really somewhere between 2 and 4 AM. Sometimes even 5 AM. That's why I have been try to taper it away and only dose the X 4 times again like I did when I started. Maybe re-distributing the X to 4 doses will be the next thing I try, but when I am lower on X and the L is my main med.

 

I kind of like the idea of emptying the L capsule into your night liquid.  That seems like a good way to simplify night dosing.  I'm comfortable with the idea.  Can you think of any reason it would not work?

 

Just the Murphy's law thing. What happens when the L and it's fillers get dumped into the XD with its X in solution? Might it affect the solution in some way? Might the L dissolve? Actually, that's unlikely sine there is so little PG compared to water in my dilution, right? The suspension is going to be sitting there for hours. Will it do something to my X? And what about what clings to the capsule and doesn't end up in the liquid? Oh, I guess I could out take the empty capsule in the morning if I really want to be paranoid! 

 

So, with this plan, when I set up my meds for the night, which I do around supper time when I'm still awake, I dump the L into the little bottle of 5% XD and put it next to my bed with my water syringe. I put the empty capsule in the 7:40 AM pill box with the full capsule. In the morning, I re-rinse my bottle and drink again because a suspension may not rinse out as easily as a dilution and I will be doing it half asleep. Then I take my 7:40 AM dose with it's full capsule, empty capsule, and the XD.

 

So, unless Murphy's law does indeed kick in and do something weird to my suspension, I have covered all my bases, right?

[[ga...]]

Hey, MT thread, just a heads up in case anybody missed the announcement (the sort of thing I often miss even though it's in red):

 

The BB web host is to carry out some essential server maintenance. The maintenance will occur within a two hour window, starting at 2015-10-28 2:00:00 AM GMT/UTC, but the actual outage probably will be much shorter than the allocated window.

 

I think that the 2:00 AM window works out (because of differences between the UK and the US in when the clocks go back) as 2015-10-27 7:00:00 PM PDT, and 2015-10-27 10:00:00 PM EDT.

 

Please note that this maintenance is outside of our control. I cannot provide an exact time of when the outage will begin, the actual length of the outage, nor guarantee that there might not be unexpected complications and/or an extension to the outage. However, the host seems very reliable, so I foresee no problems.

 

 

[[...]]

Just the Murphy's law thing. What happens when the L and it's fillers get dumped into the XD with its X in solution? Might it affect the solution in some way? Might the L dissolve? Actually, that's unlikely sine there is so little PG compared to water in my dilution, right? The suspension is going to be sitting there for hours. Will it do something to my X? And what about what clings to the capsule and doesn't end up in the liquid? Oh, I guess I could out take the empty capsule in the morning if I really want to be paranoid! 

 

So, with this plan, when I set up my meds for the night, which I do around supper time when I'm still awake, I dump the L into the little bottle of 5% XD and put it next to my bed with my water syringe. I put the empty capsule in the 7:40 AM pill box with the full capsule. In the morning, I re-rinse my bottle and drink again because a suspension may not rinse out as easily as a dilution and I will be doing it half asleep. Then I take my 7:40 AM dose with it's full capsule, empty capsule, and the XD.

 

So, unless Murphy's law does indeed kick in and do something weird to my suspension, I have covered all my bases, right?

 

I really don't see anything going wrong here.  There might be too much benzo to all dissolve in the liquid, but so what.  At that point it does not matter as everything is already measured.  We know L can also be put in liquid without problems.  And, as you say, taking the empty capsule at some point is a good way to ensure you get all the L.

[[ga...]]

Just the Murphy's law thing. What happens when the L and it's fillers get dumped into the XD with its X in solution? Might it affect the solution in some way? Might the L dissolve? Actually, that's unlikely sine there is so little PG compared to water in my dilution, right? The suspension is going to be sitting there for hours. Will it do something to my X? And what about what clings to the capsule and doesn't end up in the liquid? Oh, I guess I could out take the empty capsule in the morning if I really want to be paranoid! 

 

So, with this plan, when I set up my meds for the night, which I do around supper time when I'm still awake, I dump the L into the little bottle of 5% XD and put it next to my bed with my water syringe. I put the empty capsule in the 7:40 AM pill box with the full capsule. In the morning, I re-rinse my bottle and drink again because a suspension may not rinse out as easily as a dilution and I will be doing it half asleep. Then I take my 7:40 AM dose with it's full capsule, empty capsule, and the XD.

 

So, unless Murphy's law does indeed kick in and do something weird to my suspension, I have covered all my bases, right?

 

I really don't see anything going wrong here.  There might be too much benzo to all dissolve in the liquid, but so what.  At that point it does not matter as everything is already measured.  We know L can also be put in liquid without problems.  And, as you say, taking the empty capsule at some point is a good way to ensure you get all the L.

 

Glad to hear that it's OK to put L in liquids.  Thanks for answering so quickly. With the site taking a maintenance break tonight, I'm nervous! When it's down, I always get paranoid it is going to be gone forever, like by some terrorist cyber attack!

 

Going to go work on my new plan. Oh, oops, going to the dentist first. Yippee!

[[ga...]]

Oh dear, I just found this and I don't know what it means but it doesn't sound good.

 

http://www.rxlist.com/librium-drug.htm

 

Chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is 7-chloro-2- (methylamino) -5-phenyl-3H-1,4-benzodiazepine 4-oxide hydrochloride. A white to practically white crystalline substance, it is soluble in water. It is unstable in solution and the powder must be protected from light.

[[...]]

I am skeptical that this is anything to worry about as we have had L people in the past and they have had no problems putting it in water.  What exactly do they mean by "unstable"?

 

I also question the water solubility statement.  People have used water to taper it, but the data I have, which is from a quite reliable source, says L solubility in water is only slightly better than the other benzos (about .1mg/ml).  Maybe someone who has tapered L will chime in to reassure you.

[[bu...]]

I am skeptical that this is anything to worry about as we have had L people in the past and they have had no problems putting it in water.  What exactly do they mean by "unstable"?

 

I also question the water solubility statement.  People have used water to taper it, but the data I have, which is from a quite reliable source, says L solubility in water is only slightly better than the other benzos (about .1mg/ml).  Maybe someone who has tapered L will chime in to reassure you.

  SG-

 

I posted this on another thread:  (not arguing, just sharing info  )

 

Chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is 7-chloro-2- (methylamino) -5-phenyl-3H-1,4-benzodiazepine 4-oxide hydrochloride. A white to practically white crystalline substance, it is soluble in water./i]

 

http://www.rxlist.com/librium-drug.htm

 

Water Solubility

2000 mg/L

YALKOWSKY,SH & DANNENFELSER,RM (1992)

 

(or  2mg/ml)

 

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/chlordiazepoxide#section=Solu

bility

 

3.3.3  Description

 

                  Soluble in water; soluble or sparingly soluble

                    in alcohol; practically insoluble in chloroform, in

                    ether, and in petroleum spirit.

 

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/pim321.htm#SectionTitle:3.3%20%20Physical%20properties

[[...]]

Well, that's a clear conflict.  That source says 2mg/ml.  My source says .11mg/ml.  One of them is incorrect.  On the one hand I'm inclined to believe your source as I know people have used water to liquify L.  On the other hand I'm inclined to believe my source as the water data point at .11mg/ml fits in with the rest of the data curve for ethanol/water mixtures.  If it were 2mg/ml it would be way out of whack with the rest of the data.  This has been an unresolved question with L for a long time.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

I don't know how to resolve this, but at least in Gard's case it really doesn't matter as she is just combining her doses and does not need to make a solution.

[[ga...]]

The problem with Librium is nobody seems to know much about it. It's too "old fashioned" to get much attention. And different studies disagree with each other. Not helpful.

 

I sure wish I knew what "unstable in solution" is supposed to mean, too! Does it mean it will precipitate out or turn into something else entirely? I wonder if it means will precipitate out. That would make sense with some saying it will dissolve in a little water and some saying it needs a lot. Maybe it depends on how long you want it to stay dissolved? I'm just grasping at straws here. We need our chemistry teacher!

 

Maybe I'll start with just taking 2 capsules at 10PM and skip the middle-of-the-night dose, and ask my pharmacist if he knows anything about this. Who knows, maybe he's compounded L or some combo of benzos for somebody. I did recently switch to the local pharmacy that fills scripts for the hospitals and nursing homes around here. They seem to be much more knowledgable than the Walgreens. And they can get my weird special orders within one business day.

 

I did do search of Librium earlier looking for other L taperers and didn't find much. And now I am too tired to look again. That trip to the dentist really did me in.

 

Thanks SG and builder for you input. At least I'm heading in the right direction now.

 

Gard

[[...]]

Solubility

1 G/MORE THAN 10,000 ML WATER

Osol, A. (ed.). Remington's Pharmaceutical Sciences. 16th ed. Easton, Pennsylvania: Mack Publishing Co., 1980., p. 1006

20 mg/ml in alcohol @ 25 deg C

McEvoy, G.K. (ed.). American Hospital Formulary Service-Drug Information 19 98. Bethesda, MD: American Society of Health-System Pharmacists, Inc. 1998 (Plus Supplements)., p. 1942

1 G/6250 ML CHLOROFORM

Osol, A. (ed.). Remington's Pharmaceutical Sciences. 16th ed. Easton, Pennsylvania: Mack Publishing Co., 1980., p. 1006

1 G/130 ML ETHER

Osol, A. (ed.). Remington's Pharmaceutical Sciences. 16th ed. Easton, Pennsylvania: Mack Publishing Co., 1980., p. 1006

Water Solubility

2000 mg/L

YALKOWSKY,SH & DANNENFELSER,RM (1992)

1 to 5 mg/mL at 66 ° F

(NTP, 1992)

 

 

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/chlordiazepoxide#section=Melting-Point

 

Builder,

 

There is more info at that link that I cut and pasted above.  The top source says 1g/10,000ml water from Osol.  That is .1mg/ml which agrees with my Jouyban data.  Down lower is the 2mg/ml number from Yalkowsky.  So those are listed in the same link yet disagree.  So now we have three sources: Jouyban, Osol, and Yalkowsky.  Two of them report .1mg/ml and the third reports 2mg/ml.  This does not resolve anything, but there it is.

[[...]]

The problem with Librium is nobody seems to know much about it. It's too "old fashioned" to get much attention. And different studies disagree with each other. Not helpful.

 

I sure wish I knew what "unstable in solution" is supposed to mean, too! Does it mean it will precipitate out or turn into something else entirely? I wonder if it means will precipitate out. That would make sense with some saying it will dissolve in a little water and some saying it needs a lot. Maybe it depends on how long you want it to stay dissolved? I'm just grasping at straws here. We need our chemistry teacher!

 

Maybe I'll start with just taking 2 capsules at 10PM and skip the middle-of-the-night dose, and ask my pharmacist if he knows anything about this. Who knows, maybe he's compounded L or some combo of benzos for somebody. I did recently switch to the local pharmacy that fills scripts for the hospitals and nursing homes around here. They seem to be much more knowledgable than the Walgreens. And they can get my weird special orders within one business day.

 

I did do search of Librium earlier looking for other L taperers and didn't find much. And now I am too tired to look again. That trip to the dentist really did me in.

 

Thanks SG and builder for you input. At least I'm heading in the right direction now.

 

Gard

 

There is disagreement about solubility, but that does not create a problem in your case.  If you put it into the water/PG mix it will only be in there for a few hours.  I wish I knew what they meant by "unstable" too.  Maybe Anne will have more insight.  And asking your pharmacist is a good idea too.  I suspect there won't be a problem putting it in the liquid for a few hours, but I think taking two capsules at 10pm is a good idea for now just in case.

[[ga...]]

 

There is disagreement about solubility, but that does not create a problem in your case.  If you put it into the water/PG mix it will only be in there for a few hours.  I wish I knew what they meant by "unstable" too.  Maybe Anne will have more insight.  And asking your pharmacist is a good idea too.  I suspect there won't be a problem putting it in the liquid for a few hours, but I think taking two capsules at 10pm is a good idea for now just in case.

 

Yes, it will buy me some time, and I don't think will mess things up too much, if at all.

 

 

[[...]]

The L water solubility discrepancy was bugging me so I did some digging and found this...

 

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=cfFzJFthLCIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&ots=uNeOvcyzJH&sig=tZ7QMlKuwuge9GH6A8FFQwwdWjo#v=onepage&q=chlordiazepoxide&f=false

 

Page 1088.  Handbook of Aqueous Solubility Data, Second Edition

By Samuel H. Yalkowsky, Yan He, Parijat Jain

 

The 2mg/ml number appears in this handbook on page 1088, but the editors got it from the literature here: MacDonald, A., A.F. Michaelis, and B.Z. Senkowski, Chlordiazepoxide, Analytical Profiles of Drug Substances, 1, 15-25, 1972.  That reference is here on page 25 of this publication...

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=ghZjsAPDO58C&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=Macdonald,+a.,+a.f.+michaelis,+and+b.z.+senkowski&source=bl&ots=pBtzY4iPeb&sig=0krDmb3DYbnShDs2gX5ItWEv4q0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAmoVChMIgZTInaHlyAIVARoeCh0LiA0K#v=onepage&q=Macdonald%2C%20a.%2C%20a.f.%20michaelis%2C%20and%20b.z.%20senkowski&f=false

 

This seems to be the original source of the 2mg/ml data.  They report the solubility of L in water on page 25 as 2mg/ml and call it the "approximate" solubility at room temperature.  Not sure what "approximate" means.  These guys were apparently chemists at Hoffmann-LaRoche and Sandoz and this write-up seems to have been reviewed by Leo Sternbach himself (the man we all have to thank for inventing benzos ).

 

There is also another source in the Yalkowsky Aqueous Solubility handbook that found L solubility in water to be 1.981mg/ml (which supports the 2mg/ml value): Raevsky, O.A., O.E. Raevskaja, and K.-J. Schaper, Analysis of Water Solubility Data on the Basis of HYBOT Descriptions. Part 3. Solubility of solid neutral chemical drugs, QSAR & Combinatorial Science, 23, 327-343, 2004.

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/qsar.200430862/abstract

 

This group apparently were working on how to predict solubility instead of measuring it (as was Jouyban).  I was able to read the abstract but not the paper itself, so I did not get to see any details as to whether they actually did tests to verify their predictions, but that fact that their value is cited in the Yalkowsky handbook would suggest they did measure it or at least got the value from the literature.

 

I'm not sure where this leaves the L water solubility question.  We now know the 2mg/ml number is credible as it came from Hoffman-LaRoche chemists, but the fact that it is referred to as "approximate" by the people who measured it makes me wonder how accurate it is.  Jouyban measured the L water solubility as .11mg/ml and that is also a very credible source.

 

This new data is a step forward, but the question is still not answered: two source says 2mg/ml and one says .11mg/ml.  There is a fourth source - Osol - that I have not tracked down yet.  He/she reported L water solubility as .1mg/ml.  I guess all we can say at this point is if you are an optimist it is 2mg/ml and if you are a pessimist it is .11mg/ml.   At least we have an approximate range that we can have confidence in.

 

Thanks to Builder for finding this new data.

[[ga...]]

I think I may have figured out how to take a tiny pill in the middle of the night without losing it. Use a cat piller. I'm very serious! This will buy me some time to get to the bottom of the L liquid titration quandary. Lots of time. I'm very far from finishing the X dilution.

 

 

 

No laughing!

[[ga...]]

The L water solubility discrepancy was bugging me so I did some digging and found this...

 

 

Thanks for putting this all together, SG. If you need a new hobby now, you could try looking for solubility of L in PG and/or alcohol.

 

Gard

[[...]]

The L water solubility discrepancy was bugging me so I did some digging and found this...

 

 

Thanks for putting this all together, SG. If you need a new hobby now, you could try looking for solubility of L in PG and/or alcohol.

 

Gard

 

Ha.  I think I've had enough for a while.

 

L solubility in alcohol/water mixtures was tested by Jouyban here...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

There is a chart and a table if you scroll through the posts.  You can see how all the benzos track together with the same trend of more solubility as alcohol is added to water (until near the end where it does something funky).  I have not found any data on L in PG.  It *probably* follows along with the other benzos.

[[ga...]]

The L water solubility discrepancy was bugging me so I did some digging and found this...

 

 

Thanks for putting this all together, SG. If you need a new hobby now, you could try looking for solubility of L in PG and/or alcohol.

 

Gard

 

Ha.  I think I've had enough for a while.

 

L solubility in alcohol/water mixtures was tested by Jouyban here...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

There is a chart and a table if you scroll through the posts.  You can see how all the benzos track together with the same trend of more solubility as alcohol is added to water (until near the end where it does something funky).  I have not found any data on L in PG.  It *probably* follows along with the other benzos.

 

Cool chart.

 

Will ask over on the titration board about translating that one source into understandable English.

 

I did my first dosing changes to even out my doses today. Feeling kind of anxious with plenty of cog fog, but not horrible. Just a bump from the abrupt change, I'm sure. (OK, really, I hope it's just a bump. But I'm saying I'm sure and going with that! )

 

Thanks for all your help!

 

Gard

 

P.S. It astonishes me that it never even occurred to me, before your suggestion, to take my 5mg capsules 5 times/day to equal 25mg. Duh! My poor, broken brain. 

[[an...]]

The problem with Librium is nobody seems to know much about it. It's too "old fashioned" to get much attention. And different studies disagree with each other. Not helpful.

 

I sure wish I knew what "unstable in solution" is supposed to mean, too! Does it mean it will precipitate out or turn into something else entirely? I wonder if it means will precipitate out. That would make sense with some saying it will dissolve in a little water and some saying it needs a lot. Maybe it depends on how long you want it to stay dissolved? I'm just grasping at straws here. We need our chemistry teacher!

 

Maybe I'll start with just taking 2 capsules at 10PM and skip the middle-of-the-night dose, and ask my pharmacist if he knows anything about this. Who knows, maybe he's compounded L or some combo of benzos for somebody. I did recently switch to the local pharmacy that fills scripts for the hospitals and nursing homes around here. They seem to be much more knowledgable than the Walgreens. And they can get my weird special orders within one business day.

 

I did do search of Librium earlier looking for other L taperers and didn't find much. And now I am too tired to look again. That trip to the dentist really did me in.

 

Thanks SG and builder for you input. At least I'm heading in the right direction now.

 

Gard

 

There is disagreement about solubility, but that does not create a problem in your case.  If you put it into the water/PG mix it will only be in there for a few hours.  I wish I knew what they meant by "unstable" too.  Maybe Anne will have more insight.  And asking your pharmacist is a good idea too.  I suspect there won't be a problem putting it in the liquid for a few hours, but I think taking two capsules at 10pm is a good idea for now just in case.

 

Hi SG and Gardner,

 

Interesting about the conflicting solubilities for L.  SG, I agree that the Jouyban study was to predict the solubility of other benzos by using their model.  I am not sure his group actually determined the solubility of L. I would need to read the papers again. I also agree that the data from the drug company should be valid, but I also wonder about "approximate." It would be helpful to see the study and the analysis with statistics.  Sorry, I accidentally hit save and this posted before I finished.

 

As far as the L not being stable in solution, I would think that means it starts to decompose. I have not looked at the structure or physical properties, so at this moment cannot comment on that possibility. For example, Vitamin C is not stable when exposed to air, heat, or light.  I have to look at the properties and the structure before making any comment on the stableness of L in water. We have been very busy at school, so I am not sure if I will have time until over the weekend. I would also like to ask one of my colleagues (organic chemist) about this. 

[[an...]]

SG, I know you mentioned that many people successfully tapered off of L using water.  This could mean it is soluble but then again, many are able to taper other insoluble benzos with water if they are careful when preparing their doses.

 

I just saw your other post where you stated that Jouyban and his group did test the solubility of L.  I am sorry about that,  I misunderstood.  I thought Jouyban just used his model to predict the solubility which could lead to the conflicting information. 

 

As you know, many people think that just because a substance has a certain solubility in a given amount of solvent, all they have to do is mix the solute with the solvent and they have a solution.  This is not true.  You can add some solutes to a solvent and leave them sitting for days, and the solute will remain undissolved. In the lab we take care of this by agitating for several hours (or even overnight) or by adding a little heat while stirring. It is not possible to visually determine if something has dissolved because of the insoluble fillers. I have been meaning to do a quick spectroscopic determination to determine if my lorazepam does stay dissolved a water/alcohol mixture. It certainly would not be quantitative because of lack of a standard, but a comparison could be achieved.  I just need to find the time to do this. Unfortunately this does not help with the L issue.

[[...]]

Hi Anne,

 

It's been a while since I read the Jouyban papers, but I think I remember them referring to the lab procedure they used and that they agitated the flasks for two days.

 

L has been an enigma since day one...water used to dissolve it, yet a measured solubility of .11mg/ml.  Now another conflicting solubility report of 2mg/ml.  I don't know what to believe, but we do at least have it narrowed down and bounded.

[[ga...]]

 

Hi SG and Gardner,

 

Interesting about the conflicting solubilities for L.  SG, I agree that the Jouyban study was to predict the solubility of other benzos by using their model.  I am not sure his group actually determined the solubility of L. I would need to read the papers again. I also agree that the data from the drug company should be valid, but I also wonder about "approximate." It would be helpful to see the study and the analysis with statistics.  Sorry, I accidentally hit save and this posted before I finished.

 

As far as the L not being stable in solution, I would think that means it starts to decompose. I have not looked at the structure or physical properties, so at this moment cannot comment on that possibility. For example, Vitamin C is not stable when exposed to air, heat, or light.  I have to look at the properties and the structure before making any comment on the stableness of L in water. We have been very busy at school, so I am not sure if I will have time until over the weekend. I would also like to ask one of my colleagues (organic chemist) about this.

 

That's what I was afraid it was saying. Yikes! I would love, love, love to hear the answer to this. I have a Librium titration in my future. Thanks so much for looking into this, Anne. I have not found much at all on the board about experience with Librium.

 

Hope school is going well for you this year. I used to teach, only grade school, but really miss it. Each year was a whole new adventure with my little semi-formed human beings!

 

Gard

[[an...]]

Hi Anne,

 

It's been a while since I read the Jouyban papers, but I think I remember them referring to the lab procedure they used and that they agitated the flasks for two days.

 

L has been an enigma since day one...water used to dissolve it, yet a measured solubility of .11mg/ml.  Now another conflicting solubility report of 2mg/ml.  I don't know what to believe, but we do at least have it narrowed down and bounded.

 

Hi SG,

 

I seem to remember the same about agitating the flasks for a day or two.  Well, as you say it is bounded.  I am not sure what to believe either.  I am leaning towards the Jouyban data though. 

[[an...]]

 

Hi SG and Gardner,

 

Interesting about the conflicting solubilities for L.  SG, I agree that the Jouyban study was to predict the solubility of other benzos by using their model.  I am not sure his group actually determined the solubility of L. I would need to read the papers again. I also agree that the data from the drug company should be valid, but I also wonder about "approximate." It would be helpful to see the study and the analysis with statistics.  Sorry, I accidentally hit save and this posted before I finished.

 

As far as the L not being stable in solution, I would think that means it starts to decompose. I have not looked at the structure or physical properties, so at this moment cannot comment on that possibility. For example, Vitamin C is not stable when exposed to air, heat, or light.  I have to look at the properties and the structure before making any comment on the stableness of L in water. We have been very busy at school, so I am not sure if I will have time until over the weekend. I would also like to ask one of my colleagues (organic chemist) about this.

 

That's what I was afraid it was saying. Yikes! I would love, love, love to hear the answer to this. I have a Librium titration in my future. Thanks so much for looking into this, Anne. I have not found much at all on the board about experience with Librium.

 

Hope school is going well for you this year. I used to teach, only grade school, but really miss it. Each year was a whole new adventure with my little semi-formed human beings!

 

Gard

 

Hi Gardner,

 

I wouldn't worry about it.  As SG said, many have tapered L in the past with water or alcohol.  I will ask my colleague what he thinks though. The problem is he doesn't come in to work often.  I know I should see him sometime next week though. Regardless, I am confident you will do fine with it.  Being not stable in solution could mean that it decomposes over several days or over a few weeks time. We just don't know.  Also, what "solution" does the reference refer to?  Is water the solvent, alcohol, or something else?  It could be that one type of solution is more stable than another.

 

Again, I would not worry about it.  Too many others have done a liquid titration with L. 

 

Have a great night!!

Anne