Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Ma...]]

SG,

Was it every 3 days or 2x a week you suggested? I am having cog fog and have a little headache, so I can't remember. I didn't feel the 2.5% even a little. I was thinking about cutting 2.5% tomorrow or Thursday. I want to cut 5% this week. I know I can handle 6% since my 5.8% cut went so well, but I was over ambitious with the 7.5% cut two Sunday's ago. Also I will be starting my c/o next week. Thanks!

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

That is very encouraging that you could make a 2.5% cut and not feel it.  5% a week is over 20% a month.  That is a pretty good clip.  I'd test it out for a while and see if it is real.

[[Sh...]]

Only at .92mg since September 1. Started at 1mg of K.  Crazy how such small cuts can be felt. My doctor told me yesterday that K is one of the worst benzos to quit. She is following my lead. I think she wants to learn from my experience.  She agrees that benzos in general are extremely hard to stop and some people are very sensitive to even slight changes in dose. 

 

Hang in there everyone. One day at a time.

 

Shaani

[[Ma...]]

SG,

Thanks! It made me happy.  I am so glad you suggested it. know I can handle 5% a week. That I have always been able to handle. 5.8% wasn't any different than 5%. When I get to above 6.5% is when I have had issues this taper. 7.5% was too much. It amazes me how much a difference that small of a percentage can make. I recovered in a week and a half, but it was rough. I also was stressed about pdoc, v taper, family issues etc. I will cut another 2.5% tomorrow and see how it goes. I would say more, but since I am starting c/o and I have allergies and am getting over a cold...I don't want to push it. I will start c/o Sun or We'd depending on a couple things. I am trying not to think about it now, but I will need some advice before I c/o. Thank you again for all your help! I would be lost without you!

 

XO Maya 

[[bu...]]

Hi builder: I hope I was not the cause of your debate with DP. Yes, you are 100% correct. I was/am confused and intimidated by this whole process. For example, Clona21 told me that doing a liquid taper from a whopping 70 mg of val is a bad idea. She suggested I do a dry micro taper of .002 grams per day. I feel if I do it this way, it will take me 10 years to taper. Plus, she's an expert on kpin, and not Valium. DP also suggested cut and hold from this large a dose. And then use liquid at about 10-15 mg. But I feel comfortable using liquid. I just want to make sure that using liquid from the start is not slower than C/H. I copied and pasted what you gave me onto a WORD document. This is the math you gave me if I want to go slower. After giving this some thought, I do not want to slow down. Rather, if I feel pretty good, I will probably speed it up. And you are also right, once I get the hang of it I will dilute it. This is the math:

 

1. taper rate that I might choose (eg. 35%/14 days)

2. Multiple that rate times your dose. (eg. .35 X 70 = 2.45 mg

3. Divide that by 14 days.  (eg 2.45/14 = .175)

 

Question. In # 1 is that 35% the number that I want to cut? (I don't think so) I know grams and mgs, but I don't know how to convert it into %s. Is that last # in 3 of .175 mgs? Thank you very much.

 

Bets

  The time required for a taper is completely determined by the taper ("cut") RATE.  Whether you do C&H, daily micro, dry cut, pills and liquid, all liquid, it will make no difference.  As I have told you before, whether you cut 1mg and hold 10 days, or cut .1mg each days for 10 days, at the end of 10 days, your down 1mg. You might be able to actually go a little faster with daily tapering, but only because you might be able to go at a faster RATE.  It doesn't matter how you taper, the  time required is determined by your taper RATE. 

 

To find a percentage, just divide the starting value by the change and multiply by 100.  If your at 70mg and cut by 5mg, that's a 7.1 change (5/70=.071x100=7-1%)

 

I never told you to cut 35% in 2 weeks.  You said you wanted to cut 5% every 2 weeks.  That would be .25mg per day or a 3.5mg cut per 2 weeks.  I gave you charts showing you how to cut .25mg/day.  .25mgx14 days = 3.5mg.  3.5mg/70= .05X100=5%.  Whether you start liquid from the beginning, or do C&H for a while with tablets is up to you.  But personally, I wish I have  started with liquid microtaper from the beginning.  And many BBs have said the same thing.  BB doesn't like the phrase "cut&suffer", but for many of us that's exactly what it was.

 

Personally I can see absolutely no reason not to start with daily liquid taper from the beginning.

[[Ma...]]

Builder,

I see that MT has been so helpful for many on low doses. I don't see anyone on a high dose MTing. I am not saying it wouldn't work for anyone, but it did not work for me. I tried MTimg around 3.5mg of K, Bets dose is 70mg the V equivalent. I felt worse and tapered a lot slower. I am feeling much better and cutting more with cut and hold. Others have also gone back to cut and hold. I think it is important to recognize different things work for different people. Also you don't know for sure what MTing would be like at such a high dose or that it would have worked out better for you. Myself and Bets are both high dose long term users. That is something that, fortunately, not many can relate to. Also you can usually go much faster on a high dose. I went from 8mg-4mg very easily with almost no sxs with cut and hold. I am not saying cut and hold is better or saying what Bets should do. I just think that saying that she should definitely start with liquid MT is not good advice. At a higher dose you have a bigger cut per day. I felt the cuts when I MTed at a higher amount and then at a lower amount it was like tolerance wd and I was cutting 5% a month, when I can cut at least 5% a week with cut and hold. Your taper took 2 years. If Bets tapered that way it would take 14 years. I think you are very knowledgable and helpful to many. I am just saying my opinion and I wanted to say that when someone is on a high dose long term it is a very different situation than yours and most. Tolerance wd is a very horrific thing to go through. Also tapering isn't one size fits all. When people are new and vulnerable they take what people who have been here longer say very seriously. There are many who started on higher doses who cut and hold works for them very well. A great example is WR she cuts at least 30% a month. In a little over eight months she went from 8mg to .8mg of K. Even with all my troubles...failed MT, interdose wd, surgery, and med interactions I tapered 1mg in 5 months. Bets went from 6.5mg of K to .25mg of K mostly by cut and hold. I am not saying what Bets or anyone should do. I just think it's important to include different options and not say things like cut&suffer. I respect everyone and whatever taper works for them. You told me that MTing would definitely make me feel better. I know you were giving what you thought was good advice. I don't regret trying it. I think people can get sucked in and then are afraid to go back. I get a lot of PMs from people saying that. It is sad they don't feel comfortable posting that. We should celebrate whatever helps people. I just think it's important to be respectful of all tapering methods and not speak in absolutes. I hope this is not taken the wrong way. I am just trying to add some perspective.

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

Rhb,

I have had weight gain. When I tapered from 8-6mg I gained like 30 lbs. I am naturally very thin and petite. 5'3" and 95 lbs and small bones. It was very upsetting to me. Then I stopped tapering. I didn't know that K was harming me then. I lost a lot of the weight. Then now I gained it back plus 5 lbs. I was depressed and eating a lot of carbs and sweets. I have been eating very healthy and have only lost like 5lbs in the last two months. I think it will even its self out because this is not a normal weight for me. Benzos can affect your metabolism. It seems more have issues keeping on weight. I don't have health concerns because I am still a healthy weight and my blood pressure is low and so is my cholesterol. I see you are concerned with these things, but maybe the weight hasn't affected them. Also I think it will even itself out for you. I am trying to accept my weight, right now. It is hard. Also I went from a size 00 to 3/4 and I need to buy new clothes. I also had some mild swelling of my ankles and it was looked into and there is no reason for it. It is crazy how much the drug can affect our bodies. My Dr thinks it's why I haven't had my period since May. I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I hope it gets better soon and that you are otherwise well! Big hugs!

 

XO Maya

 

 

Hi Maya,

 

Thanks for answering my question. I feel better now knowing someone else has experienced this. It is upsetting because I worked really hard to get to 140 before I started my taper. I too am small boned, but I'm 5'6". When I was at 135 a couple years ago it put me at the borderline of too thin on the BMI, I cannot believe this weight, a couple months ago I could spin my rings around my fingers, now they hardly turn and it takes soap and water to get them off. Anyways, I'm sure I sound like a whiner, wah wah wah  It is very crazy how benzos seem to affect any body system, anytime and so many different ways. You never know what to expect from one day to the next! thx again, Rose

[[Hi...]]

I'm starting to go blind and going back into absolute hell this is so muffed up I wish someone could relate to me I don't know if the ativan is killing my liver or if it's the hep c exclusively but  these symptoms are unbearable my wavesare like being in detox and they happen no matter what I do and they are getting worse no matter what I've tried to do to stabilize and I'm getting sicker I have no moments of peacekeeping clarity I've been I'd absolute psychotic hell for months now. I'm trying to taper 3 percent this first month but I'm so so such my liver and hepatitis c are making me sicker and sicker my suffering is so great I just want to take more and more pills till it stops but when I have taken more it makes me sicker. I took a phenonlbarbital last week and it helped a little but made me sick I can't handle this anymore I'm having inner akathisia so bad I can't Breathe I pulling my hair out and screaming can't sleep and can't get up there's no way to stabilize life I didn't reinstate this month woulda been one year off and I'm sicker than my cts.....

[[Be...]]

Hip hop,

I wish to the heavens there was something that you could do, something that could be done for you. Maybe you need to go to the ER? I'm sorry.  :'(

Bennie

[[Ma...]]

rhb,

You do not sound like a whiner at all! I am the same way. You can talk to me about it anytime. It is really upsetting to me! I also get benzo belly and that makes me feel so much worse. I have to go buy new clothes in size 3/4. Also more flattering clothes. At 95 lbs you kinda need to wear tight clothes. I have mostly been borderline too thin for my weight, but my Drs who knew me for long periods of time knew it was just that I was naturally thin. The good thing is at least we are not overweight for our heights. Also it is the benzo messing with our system, so things will work themselves out. You are such a strong person who has pushed through some very hard times! I know you will get off Benzos and your benzo issues will resolve themselves! Sending you big hugs!

 

XO Maya

[[Ma...]]

Hiphop,

 

I am obviously am not a Dr, but to me you clearly are kindling, in tol wd, and have serious liver issues. I would think that Benzos would probably not be good for your liver. I usually never say this, but if the Benzos are so harmful to you physically...maybe you need a rapid taper. I don't know what you should do. It seems like going slow is not helping and you said you felt better after CTs. I hope you can find a dr who can help you. Unfortunately, no one here can really help you. I offer my support, but I can't help you. I'm so sorry you are going through so much! If you are losing your sight, I would go to ER like Bennie said. I really hope you can find some help! You are in my thoughts!

 

XO Maya

[[Be...]]

Builder, SG57, Sharkey—

 

Regardless of whether Bets can go faster off V than proposed, would you please help me understand the math used to determine how long it would take for to taper off 70 mg V at 5% very 2 weeks?

 

Below are my calculations. I'd like to know if I have figured this correctly.

 

.25 mg MT cuts

.25 mg x 14 = 3.5 mg cut per 2 weeks.

Therefor, half of that = 1.75 mg per week.

70 / 1.75 = 40

40 weeks

10 months

And if she were to double her taper rate, then halving the time would be 20 weeks, 5 months.

 

Thank you,

Bennie

 

[[Mo...]]

Builder, SG57, Sharkey—

 

Regardless of whether Bets can go faster off V than proposed, would you please help me understand the math used to determine how long it would take for to taper off 70 mg V at 5% very 2 weeks?

 

Below are my calculations. I'd like to know if I have figured this correctly.

 

.25 mg MT cuts

.25 mg x 14 = 3.5 mg cut per 2 weeks.

Therefor, half of that = 1.75 mg per week.

70 / 1.75 = 40

40 weeks

10 months

And if she were to double her taper rate, then halving the time would be 20 weeks, 5 months.

 

Thank you,

Bennie

 

The cuts get smaller as the dose is lower.

On a dose of say 10 mgr, you'd definitely not cut 1.75 mgr a week, for sure!

[[Ma...]]

Bennie,

That is not correct. You would have to go by 10% a month with that schedule. I did the math for 3mg of K or 60mg of V at 20% a month and that would take me two years.

[[Be...]]

Bennie,

That is not correct. You would have to go by 10% a month with that schedule. I did the math for 3mg of K or 60mg of V at 20% a month and that would take me two years.

 

Check your math, Maya.

 

The amount of drug in .001 g of K is not comparable to the amount of drug in .001 g of V.

 

And you are correct, 5% every two weeks is 10% a month—which is what was stated.

 

I am asking SG57, Builder or Sharkey to check my math.

 

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

Builder, SG57, Sharkey—

 

Regardless of whether Bets can go faster off V than proposed, would you please help me understand the math used to determine how long it would take for to taper off 70 mg V at 5% very 2 weeks?

 

Below are my calculations. I'd like to know if I have figured this correctly.

 

.25 mg MT cuts

.25 mg x 14 = 3.5 mg cut per 2 weeks.

Therefor, half of that = 1.75 mg per week.

70 / 1.75 = 40

40 weeks

10 months

And if she were to double her taper rate, then halving the time would be 20 weeks, 5 months.

 

Thank you,

Bennie

 

Bennie,

 

I think an easier way to understand it is to keep multiplying the dose by .95.  Every time you do that would be the new dose after two weeks.

 

So 70mg x .95 = 66.5mg (2 weeks)

66.5mg x .95 = 63.175mg (4 weeks)

63.175mg x .95 = 60.016mg (6 weeks)

...and so on...

[[Ma...]]

Bennie,

 

My math is correct. I am very aware that the amount of drug in .001g K is not comparable to the amount of drug in .001g of V. It does take the same amount of time to get off of 3mg of K as it does 60mg of V. 3mg of K equals 60mg of V. I also did the math for both separate. It would take two years.

 

You did not say she would be going down by 10% a month. You said she would be going down 1.75mg a week. That would only be 10% for the first month only. After that going down by 1.75mg a week would be more than 10% a month. I will not say more. I was trying to help, but you want the others to help you. I get it I am not a math guru, but my math was not wrong.

 

[[Be...]]

Builder, SG57, Sharkey—

 

Regardless of whether Bets can go faster off V than proposed, would you please help me understand the math used to determine how long it would take for to taper off 70 mg V at 5% very 2 weeks?

 

Below are my calculations. I'd like to know if I have figured this correctly.

 

.25 mg MT cuts

.25 mg x 14 = 3.5 mg cut per 2 weeks.

Therefor, half of that = 1.75 mg per week.

70 / 1.75 = 40

40 weeks

10 months

And if she were to double her taper rate, then halving the time would be 20 weeks, 5 months.

 

Thank you,

Bennie

 

Bennie,

 

I think an easier way to understand it is to keep multiplying the dose by .95.  Every time you do that would be the new dose after two weeks.

 

So 70mg x .95 = 66.5mg (2 weeks)

66.5mg x .95 = 63.175mg (4 weeks)

63.175mg x .95 = 60.016mg (6 weeks)

...and so on...

 

Thank you.

So if taper rate is increased to 5% per week,

70 mg x .80 = 56. mg (1 month)

56 x .80 = 44.8 mg (2 month)

...and so on?

 

Interestingly, I have not calculated dry cut MT this way to the end. Many of us who dry cut MT the same amount with each daily cut usually understand that we may hit the wall as our % rate goes up, and we start outpacing our "healing rate". So we slow down and allow symptoms to more or less dictate how we proceed. It seems that individual taper rate is not only dictated by a set percentage, but the amount of healing that happens at various times during taper. My taper rate has fluctuated from month to month, with some of my faster taper rate coming with lower doses and feeling better all the time. So now I'm in a difficult stretch, on fumes and I just need to hold a bit—which is an aside to what you've helped me with here. Thanks again.

 

Bennie

 

Maya,

 

Personally, I'm sick of tapering, calculating, hairsplitting calculating conversations, cutting pills, my scale, my pill box, knowing more about tapering than my doctor, and my whole world revolving around this stupid Benzo debacle. Really, I'm just sick of it all. I got my answer. Respectfully, enough said, ok?

 

Thanks.

Bennie

 

 

[[...]]

Thank you.

So if taper rate is increased to 5% per week,

70 mg x .80 = 56. mg (1 month)

56 x .80 = 44.8 mg (2 month)

...and so on?

 

5% a week is not quite the same as what you calculated, but it is close.  I think you multiplied .05 x 4 and subtracted it from 1 to get .80 for 4 weeks.  5% a week for 4 weeks is .95 x .95 x .95 x .95 = .814.  It matters when the recalculation is done.  If you do it weekly you get one answer, every two weeks a slightly different answer, every four weeks slightly different yet again.  This happens because the "current dose" gets a bit smaller with each new calculation.  But they will all be about the same.

 

So 70mg x .814 = 57mg

57mg x .814 = 46.4mg

...and so on.

[[wi...]]

Hi folks,

 

Its been awhile. I had to hold for quite sometime. Diagnosis of new disease. My question: I am starting a new protocol for another condition and my doc has required me to take 1000mgs of Vitamin C. Will this affect the levels of Diazepam in my blood?

 

[[Be...]]

Thank you.

So if taper rate is increased to 5% per week,

70 mg x .80 = 56. mg (1 month)

56 x .80 = 44.8 mg (2 month)

...and so on?

 

5% a week is not quite the same as what you calculated, but it is close.  I think you multiplied .05 x 4 and subtracted it from 1 to get .80 for 4 weeks.  5% a week for 4 weeks is .95 x .95 x .95 x .95 = .814.  It matters when the recalculation is done.  If you do it weekly you get one answer, every two weeks a slightly different answer, every four weeks slightly different yet again.  This happens because the "current dose" gets a bit smaller with each new calculation.  But they will all be about the same.

 

So 70mg x .814 = 57mg

57mg x .814 = 46.4mg

...and so on.

 

Ah, yes. I see. Thank you again!

[[bu...]]

Builder, SG57, Sharkey—

 

Regardless of whether Bets can go faster off V than proposed, would you please help me understand the math used to determine how long it would take for to taper off 70 mg V at 5% very 2 weeks?

 

Below are my calculations. I'd like to know if I have figured this correctly.

 

.25 mg MT cuts

.25 mg x 14 = 3.5 mg cut per 2 weeks.

Therefor, half of that = 1.75 mg per week.

70 / 1.75 = 40

40 weeks

10 months

And if she were to double her taper rate, then halving the time would be 20 weeks, 5 months.

 

Thank you,

Bennie

 

Bennie,

 

I think an easier way to understand it is to keep multiplying the dose by .95.  Every time you do that would be the new dose after two weeks.

 

So 70mg x .95 = 66.5mg (2 weeks)

66.5mg x .95 = 63.175mg (4 weeks)

63.175mg x .95 = 60.016mg (6 weeks)

...and so on...

 

:thumbsup:  Well, that saves me from a lot of typing!

[[Hi...]]

Hiphop,

 

I am obviously am not a Dr, but to me you clearly are kindling, in tol wd, and have serious liver issues. I would think that Benzos would probably not be good for your liver. I usually never say this, but if the Benzos are so harmful to you physically...maybe you need a rapid taper. I don't know what you should do. It seems like going slow is not helping and you said you felt better after CTs. I hope you can find a dr who can help you. Unfortunately, no one here can really help you. I offer my support, but I can't help you. I'm so sorry you are going through so much! If you are losing your sight, I would go to ER like Bennie said. I really hope you can find some help! You are in my thoughts!

 

XO Maya

Has anyone else had this severe mental problems with reinstatement? I'm I'm kindling that much and I can't handle the symptoms now then won't a rapidly taper be dangerous? I would have to go to detox and I won't be able to handle the symptoms after

 

Can someone explain kindling further is kindling the act of stopping the benzo or starting it again. If your kindled and your on benzo then does kindling get worse and worse every day or is it when you stop again that the kindling gets worse my last detox was almost death and it's not that I'm doing worse right now than actually doing the detox in the past it's that I wasn't getting better after6 months off and akathisia got inhumane but now I'm extremely ill and the mental symptoms are getting worse and unbelievable but I'm almost positive that detox again will leave me in worse shape

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

Can someone explain kindling further is kindling the act of stopping the benzo or starting it again. If your kindled and your on benzo then does kindling get worse and worse every day or is it when you stop again that the kindling gets worse my last detox was almost death and it's not that I'm doing worse right now than actually doing the detox in the past it's that I wasn't getting better after6 months off and akathisia got inhumane but now I'm extremely ill and the mental symptoms are getting worse and unbelievable but I'm almost positive that detox again will leave me in worse shape

 

"Kindling due to substance withdrawal, refers to the neurological condition which results from repeated withdrawal episodes from sedative-hypnotic drugs such as alcohol or benzodiazepines. Each withdrawal leads to more severe withdrawal symptoms than the previous withdrawal syndrome. Individuals who have had more withdrawal episodes are at an increased risk of very severe withdrawal symptoms, up to and including seizures. Withdrawal from GABAergic acting sedative-hypnotic drugs causes acute GABA-underactivity as well as glutamate overactivity which can lead to sensitization and hyper-excitability of the central nervous system, excito-neurotoxicity and increasingly profound neuroadaptions."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindling_%28sedative-hypnotic_withdrawal%29

[[Ma...]]

Hiphop,

I have never reinstated. I have just been in klonopin for 12 years. I honestly don't know the answers to your questions. I don't want to give advice because I am not an MD and this situation requires a medical background. I am not saying to go to a detox, but there they would at least make sure you didn't have a seizure etc. I usually would never say to do that, but it seems like your liver maybe can't handle the meds. Do you have a good dr? I'm concerned about your health. I just meant maybe a faster taper than usual if you need the drugs out of your system, so your liver is ok. I have no idea what to do. Kindling is nit something I have ever had. It is when you have increasingly worse sxs and more severe ones after having repeatedly withdrawn from the same drug. I don't know if it will keep getting worse. An addiction specialist would have a better idea. I misunderstood and thought you meant you were better before you reinstated. I so badly wish I could help you! I just don't know enough. Maybe on the CT board they would know more. I am really hoping you get help! You will continue to be in my thoughts! I'm so sorry you are going through this! My heart goes out you.

 

XO Maya