Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[pr...]]

I think it is because K has more "affinity" to bind to the receptor.  I think what it comes down to is V binds and hangs on for a certain amount of time, then lets go.  K does the same thing, but because it has more binding affinity it hangs on 20x longer than V.

 

i think i had read on here and maybe on one of Perseverance's post that klonopin had binded to more than one receptor maybe even the GABAB receptor's as well as the A and possibly the subnuits too. i wish to be sure and will try to find the post where we discussed it although i may not be able to. doesn't all the other benzo's also bind to the subnuits as well?

 

anyway, i just remember reading something about K doing that.

 

I want to taper in a way that I heal on the way down and it not too much on my body. I want to be at least semi functional.

 

Maya,

 

you're doing a great hob in listening to your body. i hope you find the right taper that allows you to heal on the way down.

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Pretty,

Nice to see you. My concern was if K and V were interchangeable and if my body would miss the K after the c/o.

 

Thank you! I try to listen to my body and go from there. I know I will find my taper rhythm and find a way to heal on the way down. I just hope it is sooner rather than later. I can tell I already am despite all the confusion my taper has been so far. I hope you are doing well!

 

XO Maya 

 

SG,

I cut 2.5% tonight and then I will probably cut 2.5% again in 3 days. I did this instead of the 5% I planned on cutting today. The only good thing about rapid metabolizing of K is I feel cuts quickly and recover quickly, unless they are too big. I wanted to see if it would be better. I am stable, but my stomach is giving me problems. I have been very nauseous and last night my stomach kept waking me up and I didn't sleep well at all. Maybe 2.5% is better for my stomach. I will start my c/o in a week. I still haven't decided the amount. Did the slow c/o of 1mg and then holding for 2 weeks to see if I could handle more V make sense? I really have no clue about knowing how to know how I will tolerate it and how much. Thanks so much for helping me!

 

Also I am confused if I taper of K and am left with just V, do I have to hold for a month at least. Would I probabky have acute wd from K still?

[[...]]

SG,

I cut 2.5% tonight and then I will probably cut 2.5% again in 3 days. I did this instead of the 5% I planned on cutting today. The only good thing about rapid metabolizing of K is I feel cuts quickly and recover quickly, unless they are too big. I wanted to see if it would be better. I am stable, but my stomach is giving me problems. I have been very nauseous and last night my stomach kept waking me up and I didn't sleep well at all. Maybe 2.5% is better for my stomach. I will start my c/o in a week. I still haven't decided the amount. Did the slow c/o of 1mg and then holding for 2 weeks to see if I could handle more V make sense? I really have no clue about knowing how to know how I will tolerate it and how much. Thanks so much for helping me!

 

Also I am confused if I taper of K and am left with just V, do I have to hold for a month at least. Would I probabky have acute wd from K still?

 

I'm glad you decided to try a smaller cut.  It is good to try things.

 

Yes, I think crossing 1mg K makes sense, but you will almost certainly need to cross again when your K runs out.  But it does not commit you to a big dose of V.

 

No, when the K is gone nothing will happen.  Benzos are interchangeable that way.

[[Ma...]]

SG,

If it might help, I will try it!

 

I know I am repeating myself, but I get nervous I won't be able to handle that much V and maybe it's better to find out now. I have heard a couple scary stories of people not handling complete c/o from K to V and crossing back. I worry about that making CNS more sensitive. I know everyone is different. I just don't want to be in a tough situation. I'm glad to know Benzos are interchangeable and nothing will happen when K is gone. My guess would be that it I could handle 1mg of V, I could handle crossing over the rest in 4 months. I don't know though. I am not familiar with cross overs. I had never heard of them. Also my therapist was wary of me being in that situation in 4 months. Maybe I can start c/o and see how it goes? I'm sorry, I am annoying myself with this lol. I must be annoying you. I will make a decision within the next week. I have to accept that there is no way to know anything for sure. I have become very indecisive since tapering. Thanks again for always being extremely helpful!

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

SG,

If it might help, I will try it!

 

I know I am repeating myself, but I get nervous I won't be able to handle that much V and maybe it's better to find out now. I have heard a couple scary stories of people not handling complete c/o from K to V and crossing back. I worry about that making CNS more sensitive. I know everyone is different. I just don't want to be in a tough situation. I'm glad to know Benzos are interchangeable and nothing will happen when K is gone. My guess would be that it I could handle 1mg of V, I could handle crossing over the rest in 4 months. I don't know though. I am not familiar with cross overs. I had never heard of them. Also my therapist was wary of me being in that situation in 4 months. Maybe I can start c/o and see how it goes? I'm sorry, I am annoying myself with this lol. I must be annoying you. I will make a decision within the next week. I have to accept that there is no way to know anything for sure. I have become very indecisive since tapering. Thanks again for always being extremely helpful!

 

XO Maya

 

Indecision is a symptom of mine, along with apathy and lack of motivation.  Just very flat emotions and personality.  It is all slowly getting better.

 

I think crossing is kind of a big deal.  There are no guarantees that it will work out well.  I think dosing six times a day is a good reason to do it.  You have enough benzo.  You have time to decide and think about things.

[[Hi...]]

Still looking for some one to talk to I'm in a bad place

[[pr...]]

Pretty,

Nice to see you. My concern was if K and V were interchangeable and if my body would miss the K after the c/o.

 

Thank you! I try to listen to my body and go from there. I know I will find my taper rhythm and find a way to heal on the way down. I just hope it is sooner rather than later. I can tell I already am despite all the confusion my taper has been so far. I hope you are doing well!

 

XO Maya 

 

Maya,

 

i think that Ellen2012 has done one of the smartest tapers with both K and V and i think she is finally down to 1mg Valium. have you ever spoken to her? i so wish i would have done it the way that she did. i tell her all the time.

 

 

Hiphop,

 

i hope someone can come to talk to you and help you --what's going on?

[[Ma...]]

SG,

I'm sorry that is also a symptom for you. I would never have guessed that. You seem very decisive to me. I am so sorry about the flat emotions. I am glad it is a least getting better. I can have a flat affect. I had some emotional blunting in the beginning of taking K. At the time, I liked it. Then in tolerance wd I had episodes of apathy and depression. I hate depression more than any sxs. I also hate the indecisiveness and obsessing. I like plans, goals, and control. The loss of control in tol wd and while tapering is very hard for me. I was often described as a perfectionist and having a "type A personality" (I know that is not necessarily always a good thing). I lost my confidence in myself and my ability to trust my own judgement, but my need to solve thingsand plan is still strongly there.

 

To me c/o is a big deal. I am afraid of it being a waste of time or even worse making my CNS more sensitive. I have known for awhile now that I metabolize K quickly. I would rather stick with the devil I know, but my interdose wd got really bad. It has gotten to a point where I am desperate, so I will try adding V. I thought about asking my pdoc for K for another month or so and then switching to V. I am afraid that he will change his mind, if I keep changing things. He has never switched someone from K to V. To him it doesn't make sense. I now wish I had said this is my last appt. He is impossible to get a hold of. By the end of Nov I should be at 2.20mg of K, maybe even less. That would be a point where I imagine the interdose wd would be really horrible again and I can't dose more than every 3 hours. I guess it is best to just start the C/O next week. I actually don't want to make the decision about the amount or anything. I wish I had a competent pdoc. I would do whatever they said. I am sick of playing Dr. Can you make the decision for me  Sorry for babbling on. You have continue to be the person of most help to me and I greatly appreciate it! I will make a decision by the end of the week. I forgot I even cut last night. It's been over 12 hrs and for me that is plenty of time to feel it and I don't think I really do. Maybe cutting every 3 days will be better for me.

 

XO Maya

 

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Pretty,

I have never spoken to her. She helped Kgirl with K and V taper. Sounds like she would be someone good to speak to. Thank you! I'm am so sorry you C/Ted. How have you been? I hope you are doing better!

 

Hiphop,

I am so sorry you are having a rough time! I wish I had helpful advice for you, but I don't. I hope things get easier for you!

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

SG,

I'm sorry that is also a symptom for you. I would never have guessed that. You seem very decisive to me. I am so sorry about the flat emotions. I am glad it is a least getting better. I can have a flat affect. I had some emotional blunting in the beginning of taking K. At the time, I liked it. Then in tolerance wd I had episodes of apathy and depression. I hate depression more than any sxs. I also hate the indecisiveness and obsessing. I like plans, goals, and control. The loss of control in tol wd and while tapering is very hard for me. I was often described as a perfectionist and having a "type A personality" (I know that is not necessarily always a good thing). I lost my confidence in myself and my ability to trust my own judgement, but my need to solve thingsand plan is still strongly there.

 

To me c/o is a big deal. I am afraid of it being a waste of time or even worse making my CNS more sensitive. I have known for awhile now that I metabolize K quickly. I would rather stick with the devil I know, but my interdose wd got really bad. It has gotten to a point where I am desperate, so I will try adding V. I thought about asking my pdoc for K for another month or so and then switching to V. I am afraid that he will change his mind, if I keep changing things. He has never switched someone from K to V. To him it doesn't make sense. I now wish I had said this is my last appt. He is impossible to get a hold of. By the end of Nov I should be at 2.20mg of K, maybe even less. That would be a point where I imagine the interdose wd would be really horrible again and I can't dose more than every 3 hours. I guess it is best to just start the C/O next week. I actually don't want to make the decision about the amount or anything. I wish I had a competent pdoc. I would do whatever they said. I am sick of playing Dr. Can you make the decision for me  Sorry for babbling on. You have continue to be the person of most help to me and I greatly appreciate it! I will make a decision by the end of the week. I forgot I even cut last night. It's been over 12 hrs and for me that is plenty of time to feel it and I don't think I really do. Maybe cutting every 3 days will be better for me.

 

XO Maya

 

That's interesting that you usually already feel the cut but this time you don't. It's good not to feel cuts!

 

I guess you don't need to decide how much to cross, just that you want to cross. You can start and stop any time, or even go back. So when you get to 1mg/20mg you can stop or keep going depending on how you feel at that time.

[[Ma...]]

I always feel the cut fully within 24 hours, usually more like 12. I usually start to feel it within hours. That is the only thing I like about being a rapid metabolizer. I am still not feeling the cut and it's been like 15 hours. When I cut 5%it is not a bad cut and sxs are definitely manageable. I cut 5.8% three cuts ago and it was very manageable and I stabilized in a couple days. I definitely prefer to not feel cuts at all! Hopefully, this can be the case with cutting 2x a week. I don't know if it would work for people who metabolize K normally because they don't start to feel the cut until day 2 at the earliest. I am curious to see how I will metabolize V. I imagine more like most people metabolize K. So far, my genes have not been helpful for tapering.

 

I have already decided I want to cross. I have to try because I really need the longer half life. That sounds good to me! I don't want to pick an amount now. Thank you so much for your help! I feel a lot better now. I felt like I had to decide now. I will begin c/o next week.

 

XO Maya

[[pr...]]

Pretty,

I have never spoken to her. She helped Kgirl with K and V taper. Sounds like she would be someone good to speak to. Thank you! I'm am so sorry you C/Ted. How have you been? I hope you are doing better!

 

Hiphop,

I am so sorry you are having a rough time! I wish I had helpful advice for you, but I don't. I hope things get easier for you!

 

XO Maya

 

 

yeah, she helped kgirl. maybe you can ask some questions from time to time. when i was trying to taper from K, i would get into a window when i cut. it definitely had a "lag" time for me. but then i never really went as slow as i should have. then when i had done the c/o to valium, i would only get about one hour of relief and then back to being in tormented brutalness waves. if i had to do this over again, i would definitely taper from both and see about how they both affect me and how i metabolize them.

[[ga...]]

Still looking for some one to talk to I'm in a bad place

 

Hip, Have you tried this thread?

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137633.0;topicseen

 

Also, one of the moderators suggested you start a buddy blog to get support for your situation. That may be your best bet. You may find someone who can relate to where you're at, especially if you pick a helpful title. Here's where those are:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=88.0

 

I'm not on here as much as I used to be. I've tried to be helpful in the past, but I really have no clue what to say any more because I have no experience with your type of situation. I suspect you don't get a lot of responses because others may feel that way, too.

 

I strongly suggest you try out the two links I listed. If you have access to therapy, I suggest DBT. It is coping-skills oriented and has been helpful to many people who are stuck in bad places and just need to learn to cope while they get through it. I'm starting it myself soon.

 

I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for.

 

Gard

 

[[ga...]]

Maya, You're going to be fine! I was just as nervous when I started my cross-over. Completely indecisive and paranoid may actually be more accurate. You could be extra-cautious crossing and just change one half of one dose and wait a week to decide if you want to keep going or not. I was on 6 doses/day of X and miserable, and that was my original plan. But when I made the 1st switch and the sky didn't fall, I decided to make the subs twice a week. Probably would have been safer to wait the whole week, though. I'm half crossed and feeling better, as you know. I plan to stay half crossed as long as I can. Or until I get impatient with having to dose so often again. I still dose 6 times because I still have so much X in my dosing. But I feel so much better. I have actual windows now!! Of course, I am a snail and will take 2 years to get off. Feeling a little braver and may up my pace a bit thanks to the Librium.

 

Gard 

 

P.S. Liked the new gal I met at the downtown group today. Also, liked that they have an after-hours help line.  Especially liked that my son drove me there and there's a hipster coffee bar on the first floor he can hang out in. 

[[ri...]]

Still looking for some one to talk to I'm in a bad place

Hey HipHop...how is it going? You said you are in a bad place today......what are your symptoms?

[[Ma...]]

Pretty,

Thanks, I will ask questions. I plan to c/o 1mg, see how I feel, and go from there. I don't want to obsess over it anymore. I did some genetic testing. I am a rapid metabolizer of K. I also have a NAT2 gene mutation that could affect klonopin elimination, but I would have to further testing to know its effects. I will metabolize V rapidly in its first phase, but it has a longer half life. Also it has a second phase with active metabolites that I will metabolize normally. Genetically speaking, V is a better match for me. I hope I tolerate it well. I am having issues with interdose wd on K and I am now dosing 6x a day. It's so different for everyone.I am sorry you had such a hard time!

 

XO Maya

 

 

 

[[Hi...]]

Still looking for some one to talk to I'm in a bad place

Hey HipHop...how is it going? You said you are in a bad place today......what are your symptoms?

Hi till I my symptoms are the same I'm.losing my mind I can't see my anxiety and terror are consuming so dizzy and confused and nauseous I found out that my hepatitis c is progressing very very rapidly and making me very sick I'm so sick from the disease and so sick from the benzo I don't know if it's from the many cts I did a year's ago I have been sicker since reinstating and more messed up mentally it started the month I reinstated so Idk if it coincidental the doctors say it doesn't affect hepatitis or the liver like that but I was fine before I started taking them again.  It if it is from the meds then I need to detox but I will die or lose my life or sanity if I detox I'm trying to taper at a slow rate made a cut every 10 days at .01 mg of weight not mg on scale but if it is the meds then this will not be fast enough my viral load has gone up 5million in one month this is unheard of I'm lost and I'm crazy and I don't know which way is upand IIan lost and I go through these massive nervous breakdown where my mind flips and I'm completely unstable and psychotic I used to have Windows but not anymore cuz the hep c sickness is so so bad

[[Ma...]]

Maya, You're going to be fine! I was just as nervous when I started my cross-over. Completely indecisive and paranoid may actually be more accurate. You could be extra-cautious crossing and just change one half of one dose and wait a week to decide if you want to keep going or not. I was on 6 doses/day of X and miserable, and that was my original plan. But when I made the 1st switch and the sky didn't fall, I decided to make the subs twice a week. Probably would have been safer to wait the whole week, though. I'm half crossed and feeling better, as you know. I plan to stay half crossed as long as I can. Or until I get impatient with having to dose so often again. I still dose 6 times because I still have so much X in my dosing. But I feel so much better. I have actual windows now!! Of course, I am a snail and will take 2 years to get off. Feeling a little braver and may up my pace a bit thanks to the Librium.

 

Gard 

 

P.S. Liked the new gal I met at the downtown group today. Also, liked that they have an after-hours help line.  Especially liked that my son drove me there and there's a hipster coffee bar on the first floor he can hang out in. 

 

Gardener,

Thank you, my sweet friend! I needed to hear that! Sounds like you were just like me before c/o  I am much better now thanks to SG. I plan to use Ashton's schedule as a guideline and go from there. In her schedule to c/o 3mg of K she does .5mg K for 10mg V each week. I think I will start with .25mg K for 5mg V and go from there. I will try not to worry about that until the end of the week. I am trying to take a break from thinking about my taper. It has been unhealthy the amount of time I have put into obsessing about my taper. It's hard when you are having interdose wd and have a bad pdoc. I would love to c/o completely to V, but I will just see how it goes. I am sorry you are still dosing 6x a day. I hate it! I am glad you are feeling better and having Windows! Go at whatever pace you need to, but I think you will able to go faster. I'm so glad you liked her. I hope you can do groups. All DBT should include phone coaching. That's great that you didn't have to drive. Lately, I never want to drive. Keep me posted on the DBT programs. I am so excited for you!

 

XO Maya 

[[Ma...]]

Hiphop,

I am so sorry you are struggling so much! My heart really breaks for you. I missed this post last night. I unfortunately can't relate to a lot of what you are saying and don't know enough to give advice. I am so sorry you are feeling so sick. I do not know how Ativan is metabolized. Xanax, klonopin, Valium, and Librium are all metabolized through the liver. I imagine it is the same for Ativan. My acupuncturist says my liver is affected by klonopin, but it is curable and I will be ok. I don't knew if it is making your liver probablems worse or not. I have been in a very dark and bad place before in tolerance wd. I know things are bad now, but please try to have hope that you will get better! I can't help with a MT plan, but there are other people here who can. I really hope things get easier for you!

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

Hello,

    I know this may seem trivial compared to other W/D symptoms, but it concerns me health wise. Has anyone else experienced weight gain while tapering off benzo's? Like 15lbs or so? I thought the usual was weight loss. I haven't changed my eating habits at all. This is really frustrating and I don't want to have to increase my blood pressure meds. I noticed I seem to be carrying extra fluid, my rings are much tighter. I don't have any major health issues, just blood pressure and familial cholesterol problems, both which are controlled. 

[[ga...]]

 

Gardener,

Thank you, my sweet friend! I needed to hear that! Sounds like you were just like me before c/o  I am much better now thanks to SG. I plan to use Ashton's schedule as a guideline and go from there. In her schedule to c/o 3mg of K she does .5mg K for 10mg V each week. I think I will start with .25mg K for 5mg V and go from there. I will try not to worry about that until the end of the week. I am trying to take a break from thinking about my taper. It has been unhealthy the amount of time I have put into obsessing about my taper. It's hard when you are having interdose wd and have a bad pdoc. I would love to c/o completely to V, but I will just see how it goes. I am sorry you are still dosing 6x a day. I hate it! I am glad you are feeling better and having Windows! Go at whatever pace you need to, but I think you will able to go faster. I'm so glad you liked her. I hope you can do groups. All DBT should include phone coaching. That's great that you didn't have to drive. Lately, I never want to drive. Keep me posted on the DBT programs. I am so excited for you!

 

XO Maya 

 

:thumbsup:

[[ca...]]

Hello,

    I know this may seem trivial compared to other W/D symptoms, but it concerns me health wise. Has anyone else experienced weight gain while tapering off benzo's? Like 15lbs or so? I thought the usual was weight loss. I haven't changed my eating habits at all. This is really frustrating and I don't want to have to increase my blood pressure meds. I noticed I seem to be carrying extra fluid, my rings are much tighter. I don't have any major health issues, just blood pressure and familial cholesterol problems, both which are controlled. 

Lost weight due to GI problems so have to work to keep it on and when i am in a decent window i am out burning the calories up. Are you able to exersize if so it`s good physically and mentally !

[[...]]

Hello,

    I know this may seem trivial compared to other W/D symptoms, but it concerns me health wise. Has anyone else experienced weight gain while tapering off benzo's? Like 15lbs or so? I thought the usual was weight loss. I haven't changed my eating habits at all. This is really frustrating and I don't want to have to increase my blood pressure meds. I noticed I seem to be carrying extra fluid, my rings are much tighter. I don't have any major health issues, just blood pressure and familial cholesterol problems, both which are controlled. 

Lost weight due to GI problems so have to work to keep it on and when i am in a decent window i am out burning the calories up. Are you able to exersize if so it`s good physically and mentally !

 

Hi Can Do, I guess it depends on the definition of exercise. I have a 2,500sq ft garden which I do all myself- rototilling etc. And I have three horses and I clean their stalls everyday. Also, I am still canning from the garden-but I do have three or so days a week where fatigue and other s/d SE slam me and I can't do much. thanks for responding and I hope things are going well for you, Rose

[[be...]]

Hi builder: I hope I was not the cause of your debate with DP. Yes, you are 100% correct. I was/am confused and intimidated by this whole process. For example, Clona21 told me that doing a liquid taper from a whopping 70 mg of val is a bad idea. She suggested I do a dry micro taper of .002 grams per day. I feel if I do it this way, it will take me 10 years to taper. Plus, she's an expert on kpin, and not Valium. DP also suggested cut and hold from this large a dose. And then use liquid at about 10-15 mg. But I feel comfortable using liquid. I just want to make sure that using liquid from the start is not slower than C/H. I copied and pasted what you gave me onto a WORD document. This is the math you gave me if I want to go slower. After giving this some thought, I do not want to slow down. Rather, if I feel pretty good, I will probably speed it up. And you are also right, once I get the hang of it I will dilute it. This is the math:

 

1. taper rate that I might choose (eg. 35%/14 days)

2. Multiple that rate times your dose. (eg. .35 X 70 = 2.45 mg

3. Divide that by 14 days.  (eg 2.45/14 = .175)

 

Question. In # 1 is that 35% the number that I want to cut? (I don't think so) I know grams and mgs, but I don't know how to convert it into %s. Is that last # in 3 of .175 mgs? Thank you very much.

 

Bets

[[Ma...]]

Rhb,

I have had weight gain. When I tapered from 8-6mg I gained like 30 lbs. I am naturally very thin and petite. 5'3" and 95 lbs and small bones. It was very upsetting to me. Then I stopped tapering. I didn't know that K was harming me then. I lost a lot of the weight. Then now I gained it back plus 5 lbs. I was depressed and eating a lot of carbs and sweets. I have been eating very healthy and have only lost like 5lbs in the last two months. I think it will even its self out because this is not a normal weight for me. Benzos can affect your metabolism. It seems more have issues keeping on weight. I don't have health concerns because I am still a healthy weight and my blood pressure is low and so is my cholesterol. I see you are concerned with these things, but maybe the weight hasn't affected them. Also I think it will even itself out for you. I am trying to accept my weight, right now. It is hard. Also I went from a size 00 to 3/4 and I need to buy new clothes. I also had some mild swelling of my ankles and it was looked into and there is no reason for it. It is crazy how much the drug can affect our bodies. My Dr thinks it's why I haven't had my period since May. I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I hope it gets better soon and that you are otherwise well! Big hugs!

 

XO Maya