Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

Hi guys so I've been here before but still have not started tapering I'm having extreme symptoms and have tried everything to stabilize and have just gotten worse. I'm ready not really to taper but I have to I have hep c that is progressing very rapidly and I'm very sick and it's confusing what is from.meds and the hep I can't exactly micro taper using my scale because it's off a bit but if I'm severely kindled and I'm having massive mental breakdowns and akathisia and just really really messed up not stable at all but I need to get in a direction.

 

I take 6mg ativan 2mg 3x a day. Each pills weighs .300 so should I taper all pills at same time or should I cut morning for ten days then afternoon for ten days and then night for ten days? Is that a acceptable method. I was thinking of starting to cut .010 from my morning dose for ten days then from afternoon and then from night so in a month I will have tapered .030 out of 900 is that a good place to start? I'm severely symptomatic no matter what. And my waves include full on brain flips and trauma and nervous breakdown where I get lost in my symptoms

 

What do yoAlso going to taper methadone  1mg every couple weeks what do youu think buddies?

 

Ps I just tried this supplement amino acid called nac for my liver antioxidants but found it to lift my mood and positiveenergy don't know if it coincidental.

 

Hip, I'm not a math guru. But I will share that I started my daily micro taper when I was holding and holding and not feeling better. I figured I may as well start my taper. I did it very slowly, only 5%/month. I actually cut round robin, morning dose one day, afternoon dose the next, evening dose the next. I did not notice that I felt any worse with this method (very slow round robin cutting) and at least I was making progress rather than suffering for nothing. That I was making cuts, even tiny ones, gave me hope. We all need some hope to keep us going through this.

 

I'm not on the boards every day like I used to be, but just wanted to say hi and I hope this goes well for you.

 

And hi to everybody else, too! I'm still going along at my snail's pace with waves and windows. I'm switching therapists next week to someone who actually has worked with people doing benzo tapers. Really nervous about switching, but my current therapist, while being level-headed and supportive, does not seem to understand what I'm going through and does not know how to help me cope with my symptoms. Switching therapists is very hard for me. I had a very bad experience (bordering on emotional abuse) with one awhile ago and have been very slow to switch and trust again, so this will be a challenge. But I stick with Churchill's advice:

 

Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in… 

 

Gard

[[sh...]]

Hi guys so I've been here before but still have not started tapering I'm having extreme symptoms and have tried everything to stabilize and have just gotten worse. I'm ready not really to taper but I have to I have hep c that is progressing very rapidly and I'm very sick and it's confusing what is from.meds and the hep I can't exactly micro taper using my scale because it's off a bit but if I'm severely kindled and I'm having massive mental breakdowns and akathisia and just really really messed up not stable at all but I need to get in a direction.

 

I take 6mg ativan 2mg 3x a day. Each pills weighs .300 so should I taper all pills at same time or should I cut morning for ten days then afternoon for ten days and then night for ten days? Is that a acceptable method. I was thinking of starting to cut .010 from my morning dose for ten days then from afternoon and then from night so in a month I will have tapered .030 out of 900 is that a good place to start? I'm severely symptomatic no matter what. And my waves include full on brain flips and trauma and nervous breakdown where I get lost in my symptoms

 

What do yoAlso going to taper methadone  1mg every couple weeks what do youu think buddies?

 

Ps I just tried this supplement amino acid called nac for my liver antioxidants but found it to lift my mood and positiveenergy don't know if it coincidental.

 

Hip, I'm not a math guru. But I will share that I started my daily micro taper when I was holding and holding and not feeling better. I figured I may as well start my taper. I did it very slowly, only 5%/month. I actually cut round robin, morning dose one day, afternoon dose the next, evening dose the next. I did not notice that I felt any worse with this method (very slow round robin cutting) and at least I was making progress rather than suffering for nothing. That I was making cuts, even tiny ones, gave me hope. We all need some hope to keep us going through this.

 

I'm not on the boards every day like I used to be, but just wanted to say hi and I hope this goes well for you.

 

And hi to everybody else, too! I'm still going along at my snail's pace with waves and windows. I'm switching therapists next week to someone who actually has worked with people doing benzo tapers. Really nervous about switching, but my current therapist, while being level-headed and supportive, does not seem to understand what I'm going through and does not know how to help me cope with my symptoms. Switching therapists is very hard for me. I had a very bad experience (bordering on emotional abuse) with one awhile ago and have been very slow to switch and trust again, so this will be a challenge. But I stick with Churchill's advice:

 

Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in… 

 

Gard

 

Good stuff Gardener!  I agree  :thumbsup:

[[an...]]

Hi guys so I've been here before but still have not started tapering I'm having extreme symptoms and have tried everything to stabilize and have just gotten worse. I'm ready not really to taper but I have to I have hep c that is progressing very rapidly and I'm very sick and it's confusing what is from.meds and the hep I can't exactly micro taper using my scale because it's off a bit but if I'm severely kindled and I'm having massive mental breakdowns and akathisia and just really really messed up not stable at all but I need to get in a direction.

 

I take 6mg ativan 2mg 3x a day. Each pills weighs .300 so should I taper all pills at same time or should I cut morning for ten days then afternoon for ten days and then night for ten days? Is that a acceptable method. I was thinking of starting to cut .010 from my morning dose for ten days then from afternoon and then from night so in a month I will have tapered .030 out of 900 is that a good place to start? I'm severely symptomatic no matter what. And my waves include full on brain flips and trauma and nervous breakdown where I get lost in my symptoms

 

What do yoAlso going to taper methadone  1mg every couple weeks what do youu think buddies?

 

Ps I just tried this supplement amino acid called nac for my liver antioxidants but found it to lift my mood and positiveenergy don't know if it coincidental.

 

Hip, I'm not a math guru. But I will share that I started my daily micro taper when I was holding and holding and not feeling better. I figured I may as well start my taper. I did it very slowly, only 5%/month. I actually cut round robin, morning dose one day, afternoon dose the next, evening dose the next. I did not notice that I felt any worse with this method (very slow round robin cutting) and at least I was making progress rather than suffering for nothing. That I was making cuts, even tiny ones, gave me hope. We all need some hope to keep us going through this.

 

I'm not on the boards every day like I used to be, but just wanted to say hi and I hope this goes well for you.

 

And hi to everybody else, too! I'm still going along at my snail's pace with waves and windows. I'm switching therapists next week to someone who actually has worked with people doing benzo tapers. Really nervous about switching, but my current therapist, while being level-headed and supportive, does not seem to understand what I'm going through and does not know how to help me cope with my symptoms. Switching therapists is very hard for me. I had a very bad experience (bordering on emotional abuse) with one awhile ago and have been very slow to switch and trust again, so this will be a challenge. But I stick with Churchill's advice:

 

Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in… 

 

Gard

 

Hi Gardner,

 

I also agree.  It is nice to hear from you.  Good luck with the new therapist.  I hope you are having more windows than waves.  It is all so unpredictable at times.

 

Take care,

Anne

[[Ma...]]

Gardner,

 

I am just seeing this post. My pdoc appt was at 3:45. I'm sorry you have to dose so much, as well. It sounds like it's smart that you didn't completely cross over to L because of how depressive it was. I suspect you must be a fast metabolizer. I unfortunately think I have everyone beat in that dept. My pdoc is not ok with two Benzos! He said I could have V or K, but not at the same time. I said to give me V. I said that because I have a decent amount of klonopin. I am scared if I do the partial C/O that I won't find someone to give me both K and V in time. I have to count my k pills. There are a lot. At least 2 months worth, I would guess. Good thing I didn't get rid of all my 1mg pills like I did 2mg pills. My pdoc usually does as I say. I thought he would do the partial. I wasn't certain, but I thought he would. My other options are stay on just K or try a complete C/O and see if I can tolerate it. I don't know what to do *sigh*. I feel like I am an extra complicated case with my high dose long term use, my many years of tol wd, cutting getting harder,  my rapid metabolizing etc. I will email you soon. I hope you are feeling good and sleep well! 

 

SG,

I don't know if you have any suggestions about what to do. I liked the 25% plan, but unfortunately my pdoc did not. He doesn't care about which benzo or slow tapering, but I guess two Benzos is not ok. He said he had never heard of it and didn't have the knowledge to feel comfortable with it. He said if I got in a car accident etc. and he had prescribed me two Benzos he would be blamed. Thanks!

 

XO Maya

 

I have 200 1mg K pills and 90 .5mg K pills. Also a couple pieces, but not many. I was wasteful with K.

 

Well, the good news is you have enough benzo prescribed no matter what happens.  He gave you enough V for a full cross.  The amount you cross depends on how much K you have and how comfortable you are lying to your doctor.  In this situation I would not have a problem with it myself.  It sucks that he is not willing to learn, but at least he is working with you within his limits.

 

If you crossed to a higher percentage, the K would last longer and would be gone sooner.  Once you count your K you could then lay out how long it would last for various percentages (30, 40, 50, 60, 70%) and pick one.  But again, the good thing is, even if the K runs out you will always have enough V.

 

SG,

I have no issues lying to my pdoc. I am not sure if I should do a partial C/O because at some point I will run out of K. I am looking for a new dr, but I don't feel confident enough that I will find a new pdoc who will prescribe both in time. I counted my K pills. I have 200 1mg pills. I have 90 .5mg pills. My pill box was only filled through today. I will start having to take from those K pills. I also have some pieces of both 1mg and .5mg pills, but not a lot. That I will check later. I was wasteful with K because I didn't know I would ever need them. I knew my pdoc would never cut me off. I should have been smarter. What would you suggest doing? I now kinda wish I had said K for now and then asked him for V in a month. I can't keep going back and forth like that. He said if I asked to switch back, for legal reasons he would ask for the V back. I am taking .5mg 6x a day. I can't dose more than I am now. I know at some point I will have to if I don't add in V. I am confused on what to do. I took a pill of V on Tuesday night. It was stupid and impulsive. I wanted to see what would happen. I felt sedated and I hate that I kind of liked it. I haven't felt sedated at all from K in at least 11 years. My body did tell me an hr later that is was mad about not having its last dose of .5mg and my heart started racing etc. It wasn't as bad because of the V, but I got nervous and took the last dose. I had taken a 10mg V pill. When I woke up the next morning My interdose wd wasn't as bad as it usually is when I wake up. Also the interdose wd between dose one and two wasn't as bad. That is usually when it is the worst. I know that I can't really tell anything from that. It was like a rescue dose. I haven't taken any since. I want to come up with a plan. Sorry for babbling on. Thanks for helping me!

 

XO Maya

 

Gardener & Jeff,

Thank you for all your support! I have to rush and go to a Drs appt. I will write later. XOXO

[[...]]

You have 245mg K.  If you don't waste any that will last quite a while.  Let's say you crossed 2mg K to 40mg V.  That leaves you with 1mg K.  You would have 245 days until you ran out of K even if you never tapered.  That's eight months - I think that is plenty of time to taper the final mg of K.  If you swapped 1mg K with 20mg V you would have four months before you had to cross all V.  When you run out of K you just cross to V at that time.  You still will have all that extra V as backup since the doc is not shorting you at all.  You will always have enough benzo to taper properly.  I think you are still in good shape to do a partial cross.

[[ca...]]

You have 245mg K.  If you don't waste any that will last quite a while.  Let's say you crossed 2mg K to 40mg V.  That leaves you with 1mg K.  You would have 245 days until you ran out of K even if you never tapered.  That's eight months - I think that is plenty of time to taper the final mg of K.  If you swapped 1mg K with 20mg V you would have four months before you had to cross all V.  When you run out of K you just cross to V at that time.  You still will have all that extra V as backup since the doc is not shorting you at all.  You will always have enough benzo to taper properly.  I think you are still in good shape to do a partial cross.

SG, Good job on figuring this out for Maya as i am doing a partial c/o IMHO i think the only part that may cause issues is the last part of the k taper but then again it would be a small amount of k so i think you got it right! Your a great help to many thanks ~CD

[[Hi...]]

I made my first cut of .010 of my morning dose today I feel like I'm heading back into a bad wave my waves are so horrendous it's hard for me to find anymore to relate to but we can all relate to some point. I don't believe that this is ahuge chunk I do plan on micro tapering but I want to knock some off because of my liver if I taper .010 out of .900 and .900 equals 6mg how many mg is that? I was never stable at all but ever since I attempted to switch to valium and couldn't handle it and switch back I have not been the same. That was bout a month ago. I keep having waves that destroy everything that I ever thought possible and I have been through multiple detoxes. I've also been getting very very very sick and i don't know if it's from my hep c or just the benzo. But I'm not having Windows anymore and that's related somehow to the methadone I take so I plan to cut .030 in a months time I think that's like 3 percent. I hope it will make me feel better I can't imagine tapering making me feel better but I already can't handle this so if it gets worse I'll cave this late month has been a complete hell on earth all my days blur together and I can't tell the difference

 

I been getting massive fatigue where I can't get up but then I can't sleep at night I'm scared to sleep during the day because of waking up.

 

Has anyone here cold turkey and reinstated to feel worse? And had to taper from that? Having psychotic trauma and sickness I know everyone says take it slow and you won't feel the difference but has anyone here felt better from certain things while tapering?

 

I'm such a burden and I can't get out of my head and my body is collapsing I litterally lay on the couch and get envelop by my waves it's pure torture my Windows used to flip my attitude but I'm so sick I get no enjoyment any more I think the valium destabilized me even further and going up and down on the methadone.

 

I want to hold through this cut but I'm afraid I won't feel better because I haven't been feeling better even holding.

 

I took a phenonlbarbital last week because of the akathisia and so I'm scared that's still floating around waiting to come out. It's got a long half life and my liver is pretty bad probably doubling half lives or something cuz when I first made the valium first step crossover I felt good for a week like normal almost then it kept building and building

Sorry for rambling. I need a lot of support my main care giver my girl is leaving for a week and I won't be able to talk to her please pm me I like to talk on phone and just need support thank you everyone I really enjoy input

[[Ma...]]

You have 245mg K.  If you don't waste any that will last quite a while.  Let's say you crossed 2mg K to 40mg V.  That leaves you with 1mg K.  You would have 245 days until you ran out of K even if you never tapered.  That's eight months - I think that is plenty of time to taper the final mg of K.  If you swapped 1mg K with 20mg V you would have four months before you had to cross all V.  When you run out of K you just cross to V at that time.  You still will have all that extra V as backup since the doc is not shorting you at all.  You will always have enough benzo to taper properly.  I think you are still in good shape to do a partial cross.

SG,

I get nervous that I might not tolerate a full c/o well. Maybe I am just being paranoid. Would you suggest trying cross over 2mgs first? I get nervous about only having four months because what if I don't have a new pdoc who will prescribe both or want to c/o fully. I am going to make a decision by the end of next week at the latest because I will start whatever C/O I am doing the next week. I want to not have appts or plans I can't reschedule. I also think I will cut 5% this Sat or Sun. The Dr will not be shorting me of whatever benzo I say I am on. He is not rushing me to taper or even asking me to taper at all. Just no two Benzos at once is all he said. Thanks for all your help! I am tired and out of it. I am still not sure what to do, but you have helped me feel a lot better about this situation! I must get some rest.

 

XO Maya

 

 

[[...]]

SG,

I get nervous that I might not tolerate a full c/o well. Maybe I am just being paranoid. Would you suggest trying cross over 2mgs first? I get nervous about only having four months because what if I don't have a new pdoc who will prescribe both or want to c/o fully. I am going to make a decision by the end of next week at the latest because I will start whatever C/O I am doing the next week. I want to not have appts or plans I can't reschedule. I also think I will cut 5% this Sat or Sun. The Dr will not be shorting me of whatever benzo I say I am on. He is not rushing me to taper or even asking me to taper at all. Just no two Benzos at once is all he said. Thanks for all your help! I am tired and out of it. I am still not sure what to do, but you have helped me feel a lot better about this situation! I must get some rest.

 

XO Maya

 

You are in a situation where you will always have enough benzo no matter what you do.  You can cross it all, swap 67% (40mg/2mg, 245 days of K), swap 33% (20mg/1mg, 122 days of K) or swap nothing (81 days of K).  Depending on how much you choose to swap you can always finish crossing if needed on the back end.  Eventually you must be on all V.  Breaking this into two crosses is not such a bad thing as they each would be shorter.

 

If you are worried about how you will tolerate V you could try adding 20mg V and dropping 1mg K (33%).  You'd have several months to test this out before you had to decide to keep crossing or go back to K.  Meanwhile the K would be being tapered and you would probably be able to lose ~.5mg in that time.

 

Just to let you know, my access to BB will be really spotty for the next few days as I will be traveling...especially today and Monday.  I'll try to get on when I can.

[[nx...]]

Hi all I'm doing a sporadic no plan sorta taper...I'm really interested in this I'm just cutting right now.I'm guessing I really need a scale correct?I'll weigh a whole pill and then do the math based on that? I'm using 10mg Valium tabs

[[Be...]]

Hi all I'm doing a sporadic no plan sorta taper...I'm really interested in this I'm just cutting right now.I'm guessing I really need a scale correct?I'll weigh a whole pill and then do the math based on that? I'm using 10mg Valium tabs

 

Hi. Yes. Figure out the average weight of your pills by weighing 15 of them individually. Then divide total of all pills by 15. That way there's consistency. .001 gram scale is what you need for accurate cut and hold. Taper plan is really  important for consistency. Come back and some one will help set that up with you.

Good luck.

 

[[Ma...]]

You are in a situation where you will always have enough benzo no matter what you do.  You can cross it all, swap 67% (40mg/2mg, 245 days of K), swap 33% (20mg/1mg, 122 days of K) or swap nothing (81 days of K).  Depending on how much you choose to swap you can always finish crossing if needed on the back end.  Eventually you must be on all V.  Breaking this into two crosses is not such a bad thing as they each would be shorter.

 

If you are worried about how you will tolerate V you could try adding 20mg V and dropping 1mg K (33%).  You'd have several months to test this out before you had to decide to keep crossing or go back to K.  Meanwhile the K would be being tapered and you would probably be able to lose ~.5mg in that time.

 

Just to let you know, my access to BB will be really spotty for the next few days as I will be traveling...especially today and Monday.  I'll try to get on when I can.

 

SG,

I have a few questions as the benzo I have been on long term is K and I have never been on another benzo more than a week. I don't have knowledge about C/Os and clearly my pdoc is no help. Sorry, I know these questions will seem dumb and probably neurotic. How soon will I know if I tolerate V? Also why do some c/o to V only partially from K? Kgirl crossed over to V completely and couldn't tolerate it and switched completely back except for 2mg of V which I think was 10% of her dose and that helped her. I definitely think I will tolerate V well and I know I need the half life. I am more paranoid I will c/o partially and then run out of k and not have a pdoc who will give both or I won't be able to tolerate that much V and if I go back to K the half life will unbearable because of a lower dose. I don't know if I am making sense. Also I am told I would still go through k acute wd and have to hold awhile before starting taper of V. That makes me want to C/O completely. Also some seem to think V will take longer to taper than K. I am not going to start C/O until the week after next. I will make a 5% cut from K Sun. Then during C/O I am not having definite plans or appts I can't cancel. I also am a bit nervous about crossing over. I have taken K every day for 12 years. I hate it so much, but am scared my body might kinda freak out. I want to make sure I do it correctly and as painlessly as possible. I also of course don't want to waste time either. I am thinking either C/O 1mg or 2mg is probably best to start with. What would you suggest? Thank you SO much for always helping me so much! I hope you are having a good trip!

 

XO Maya

[[Ma...]]

Gardner,

 

I am just seeing this post. My pdoc appt was at 3:45. I'm sorry you have to dose so much, as well. It sounds like it's smart that you didn't completely cross over to L because of how depressive it was. I suspect you must be a fast metabolizer. I unfortunately think I have everyone beat in that dept. My pdoc is not ok with two Benzos! He said I could have V or K, but not at the same time. I said to give me V. I said that because I have a decent amount of klonopin. I am scared if I do the partial C/O that I won't find someone to give me both K and V in time. I have to count my k pills. There are a lot. At least 2 months worth, I would guess. Good thing I didn't get rid of all my 1mg pills like I did 2mg pills. My pdoc usually does as I say. I thought he would do the partial. I wasn't certain, but I thought he would. My other options are stay on just K or try a complete C/O and see if I can tolerate it. I don't know what to do *sigh*. I feel like I am an extra complicated case with my high dose long term use, my many years of tol wd, cutting getting harder,  my rapid metabolizing etc. I will email you soon. I hope you are feeling good and sleep well! 

 

SG,

I don't know if you have any suggestions about what to do. I liked the 25% plan, but unfortunately my pdoc did not. He doesn't care about which benzo or slow tapering, but I guess two Benzos is not ok. He said he had never heard of it and didn't have the knowledge to feel comfortable with it. He said if I got in a car accident etc. and he had prescribed me two Benzos he would be blamed. Thanks!

 

XO Maya

 

I have 200 1mg K pills and 90 .5mg K pills. Also a couple pieces, but not many. I was wasteful with K.

 

Maya, I'm considering another try at crossing over to more Librium. If I had to choose between X and L, I'd take L, hands down. I still have a decent stash of X, too, so I feel pretty safe even if my psych tries to rush me to cross faster. Luckily, he hasn't done that yet, but I see him in 2 weeks to discuss my crossover. Not sure what he's going to say about my stalling out. 

 

Gardener,

That is good to know! I hope your pdoc doesn't try to rush you! You obviously can tolerate L and you have extra X, so I know you will be fine either way!

 

XO Maya

[[Ma...]]

 

I feel terrible for ya, Maya (I responded to the PM). I'm truly praying that the c/o to V will help since you desperately need a longer half life. BUT, I'm glad to see that you're approaching all of this with patience and good logic. You'll get there. Trial and correction, beautiful ma'am. Between your doc, SG, and yourself, you'll find your road map. It's nice that you can get the genetic testing. I've learned a ton about it over the last few months, but I can't afford it and my insurance doesn't cover it. It's awesome to have that info going into all of this.

 

We're all pulling for you!!!!!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

Thank you so much! You always so wonderful and supportive. I really appreciate it. I will write back to PM later. I am not feeling great. I have sinus problems from allergies and my ears really hurt and I have a headache. I usually use sudafed with nasal decongestant or rx Flonase, but both rev up CNS. SG is definitely much more helpful than my pdoc. I hope to find a better one, but I am not getting my hopes up. I am trying to be smart about it. I really do need the longer half life and I hope so badly I tolerate V well. I know I will find my way, I just hope it's sooner rather than later. I need a break! I know you do, too! You are in my thoughts and prayers! I really hope your sleep gets better!

 

I did the 23andme ancestry DNA test ($99) and it gave me my raw genetic data. I uploaded it to two sites livewell.com ($20) and MTHRsupport.com ($30 also called Sterlings app). They both have me all the info I needed, but didn't interpret everything I needed in a way I could understand, but it was enough to get the info I wrote before. I wanted to do more tests tomorrow, but it would be $1000 and I have the info just need someone to interpret it. I may skype with a practioners depending on their price. There were none listed for MA which I find weird. Is there something specific you are looking for? Maybe those tests can help you.

 

XO Maya

 

No, I'm not looking for any particular test, Maya. I just got interested in it when I listened to a few podcasts and conferences about it all. I'm no pro, by any means, but it's interesting and I know that a lot of people benefit from it. Lordy, I hope it helps you!! And SG, many thanks helping her so much! You both rock...

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

It is very interesting. I learned a lot of non benzo stuff that was interesting. I metabolize most medicines fast. Also it said I was more likely to have chronic kidney disease and I do. That I don't absorb vitamin b12. I have to supplement because levels have been low. A lot of interesting info. Also that ancestry part as interesting. The testing I did cost $155 total. It takes like 6-8 weeks. I also am hoping to skype with a practioner who can tell me more. They didn't have any in MA, which I think is weird. I wanted to do more testing about medicine at genelex, but my insurance wouldn't cover it and it was $1000. Some insurances cover it and it does have a sliding scale. Thank you! SG is so helpful to so many! You are such a wonderful supportive person!

 

XO Maya 

[[no...]]

Hi everyone  I've got a question on solubility of Diazepam in Alcohol, I need to dissolve 2mg Diazepam pill in vodka, the strongest I could get is 80% proof=40% alcohol. From what I can grasp the general consensus in one corner say''s that it takes 2ml of vodka at that strength to dissolve the Diazepam then mix it with water wherein it then becomes a solution not a suspension which is what plain water I've been using makes, a suspension.

 

The others say 1mg vodka at that strength is enough and you need no lower than 25mls of water per 1mg as 10mls of water or less is far too low with the alcohol, it has to be 25mls or more. I'm at present using 100mls of water so it will be plenty, and I may even go up to 200mls as its a 2mg pill. Then there's also yet another train of though that you actually need 4mls of vodka to dissolve a 2mg Diazepam pill to put it in to solution with the water.

 

Can some one please tell me which amount of mils per 2mg pill is correct? 1ml, 2ml, or 4ml of vodka  per 2mg pill, and isn't it more accurate to use a 3ml graduated pipette to measure 1ml of vodka than a 1ml syringe?  Sorry I'm going the long way about things but I want to make sure I'm covering everything that's playing on my mind before I go ahead as I'm really suffering right now and don't want to leave any room for mistakes that will make an already bad situation worse

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[...]]

SG,

I have a few questions as the benzo I have been on long term is K and I have never been on another benzo more than a week. I don't have knowledge about C/Os and clearly my pdoc is no help. Sorry, I know these questions will seem dumb and probably neurotic. How soon will I know if I tolerate V? Also why do some c/o to V only partially from K? Kgirl crossed over to V completely and couldn't tolerate it and switched completely back except for 2mg of V which I think was 10% of her dose and that helped her. I definitely think I will tolerate V well and I know I need the half life. I am more paranoid I will c/o partially and then run out of k and not have a pdoc who will give both or I won't be able to tolerate that much V and if I go back to K the half life will unbearable because of a lower dose. I don't know if I am making sense. Also I am told I would still go through k acute wd and have to hold awhile before starting taper of V. That makes me want to C/O completely. Also some seem to think V will take longer to taper than K. I am not going to start C/O until the week after next. I will make a 5% cut from K Sun. Then during C/O I am not having definite plans or appts I can't cancel. I also am a bit nervous about crossing over. I have taken K every day for 12 years. I hate it so much, but am scared my body might kinda freak out. I want to make sure I do it correctly and as painlessly as possible. I also of course don't want to waste time either. I am thinking either C/O 1mg or 2mg is probably best to start with. What would you suggest? Thank you SO much for always helping me so much! I hope you are having a good trip!

 

XO Maya

 

I've never known partial crosses to be common, but there are a lot right now.  Remember, no matter what happens you will always have enough benzo.  You can relax.  I don't know how long it will take to determine if V is right for you.  It usually works out fine.  If you cross in small percents it will go fine...no big deal.  A few percent at a time.  Just be ready to sleep a lot at first.   It won't take any longer or less time to taper V...it will be the same.

 

I think a partial cross is a good plan and I like the idea of trying 1mg at first.  The only thing is you will likely not be able to taper the K before you run out.  But you can always finish crossing later.

[[...]]

Hi everyone  I've got a question on solubility of Diazepam in Alcohol, I need to dissolve 2mg Diazepam pill in vodka, the strongest I could get is 80% proof=40% alcohol. From what I can grasp the general consensus in one corner say''s that it takes 2ml of vodka at that strength to dissolve the Diazepam then mix it with water wherein it then becomes a solution not a suspension which is what plain water I've been using makes, a suspension.

 

The others say 1mg vodka at that strength is enough and you need no lower than 25mls of water per 1mg as 10mls of water or less is far too low with the alcohol, it has to be 25mls or more. I'm at present using 100mls of water so it will be plenty, and I may even go up to 200mls as its a 2mg pill. Then there's also yet another train of though that you actually need 4mls of vodka to dissolve a 2mg Diazepam pill to put it in to solution with the water.

 

Can some one please tell me which amount of mils per 2mg pill is correct? 1ml, 2ml, or 4ml of vodka  per 2mg pill, and isn't it more accurate to use a 3ml graduated pipette to measure 1ml of vodka than a 1ml syringe?  Sorry I'm going the long way about things but I want to make sure I'm covering everything that's playing on my mind before I go ahead as I'm really suffering right now and don't want to leave any room for mistakes that will make an already bad situation worse

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

We have good reliable information that says your 80 proof will dissolve 1.9mg V per ml and that the water itself will dissolve 4mg V per 100ml.  Based on this, to dissolve 2mg I'd say you need at least 2ml 80 proof and 3 or 4ml would be wise to create room for error.  100 or 200ml water should be fine.

[[no...]]

Hi everyone  I've got a question on solubility of Diazepam in Alcohol, I need to dissolve 2mg Diazepam pill in vodka, the strongest I could get is 80% proof=40% alcohol. From what I can grasp the general consensus in one corner say''s that it takes 2ml of vodka at that strength to dissolve the Diazepam then mix it with water wherein it then becomes a solution not a suspension which is what plain water I've been using makes, a suspension.

 

The others say 1mg vodka at that strength is enough and you need no lower than 25mls of water per 1mg as 10mls of water or less is far too low with the alcohol, it has to be 25mls or more. I'm at present using 100mls of water so it will be plenty, and I may even go up to 200mls as its a 2mg pill. Then there's also yet another train of though that you actually need 4mls of vodka to dissolve a 2mg Diazepam pill to put it in to solution with the water.

 

Can some one please tell me which amount of mils per 2mg pill is correct? 1ml, 2ml, or 4ml of vodka  per 2mg pill, and isn't it more accurate to use a 3ml graduated pipette to measure 1ml of vodka than a 1ml syringe?  Sorry I'm going the long way about things but I want to make sure I'm covering everything that's playing on my mind before I go ahead as I'm really suffering right now and don't want to leave any room for mistakes that will make an already bad situation worse

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

We have good reliable information that says your 80 proof will dissolve 1.9mg V per ml and that the water itself will dissolve 4mg V per 100ml.  Based on this, to dissolve 2mg I'd say you need at least 2ml 80 proof and 3 or 4ml would be wise to create room for error.  100 or 200ml water should be fine.

 

 

Thanks very Much SG 

 

 

                            Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[Ma...]]

 

I've never known partial crosses to be common, but there are a lot right now.  Remember, no matter what happens you will always have enough benzo.  You can relax.  I don't know how long it will take to determine if V is right for you.  It usually works out fine.  If you cross in small percents it will go fine...no big deal.  A few percent at a time.  Just be ready to sleep a lot at first.   It won't take any longer or less time to taper V...it will be the same.

 

I think a partial cross is a good plan and I like the idea of trying 1mg at first.  The only thing is you will likely not be able to taper the K before you run out.  But you can always finish crossing later.

 

SG,

Me,  relax?  I am doing better than I was thanks to you. If worse comes to worse I will just deal with K and maybe dose 8x a day at 2mg. I will do what I have to do. My pdoc had never heard of a partial c/o, but he doesn't know anything. He also had never heard of anyone c/o from k to v. He did make an exception and do it for the first time with me. I had never heard of a c/o or a partial one before bb. If I tapered 1mg of k and had 2mg of v left, would I probably go through acute wd of k and need to hold awhile before tapering V. I do not love the idea of two tapers. I would like to just do a full c/o, but I am too scared. Maybe I am being paranoid, but I get scared of my body not tolerating that much V and freaking out from no K. I don't know exactly how it works going from one benzo to another. I think going from Xanax to klonopin or Librium is less scary because they are metabolized the same way. Also some people say V hits different receptors than K and K binds more tightly to the receptors. I don't understand. Sorry, I know I am being repetitive and obsessive. It's not healthy and I really am doing better than I was and I am trying to relax. I do think I will tolerate V well. I am not usually sensitive to meds at all. Also I am not usually affected as strongly as others. I have C/Ted every SSRI, Effexor, ambien, lunesta, gabapentin, trileptal...pretty much every psych drug for anxiety, depression, or sleep. They mostly just didn't do anything to me. I am ready to sleep more at first, but I don't know if I will be affected as strongly as most. I took 5mg of V for a week while on 8mg of K because my crazy pdoc thought it might help with sleep, but it did nothing and I stopped taking it. Also when I took 10mg On Tues night it didn't affect me that strongly. It did sedate me, which surprised me. I know that the only way to know for sure is to do a c/o. Thanks for reassuring me V won't take more time. I didn't see why it would. I also like the idea of c/o 1mg at first, but the part about probably having to switch again in four months makes me a bit nervous. I will either do 1mg or 2mg. I am not sure which yet. I guess I could compromise and do 1.5mg lol. At least I have until the end of next week to decide. I also am planning to do a 5% cut tomorrow. I haven't cut my pills yet. I am not sure which doses I want to cut from. Also I haven't had to cut my pills in almost 2 weeks because I have just been taking .5mg 6x a day. I know the c/o will be a lot of dosing and cutting. All the dosing will be confusing. I know I will figure it out, thanks to all your help!

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

Think about what is happening.  The benzo - whether K or V - is occupying the receptor and keeping you out of withdrawal.  They are interchangeable.  Why is K 20 times stronger than V?  I think it is because K has more "affinity" to bind to the receptor.  I think what it comes down to is V binds and hangs on for a certain amount of time, then lets go.  K does the same thing, but because it has more binding affinity it hangs on 20x longer than V.

 

Crossing 1.5mg is reasonable.  It is 50%, but I don't think you would be able to taper all the K before you ran out.  I think it would last about six months.  Tapering 1.5mg in that time is possible, but not likely.  So then you would still have to cross what remains.

 

I know you don't want to cut daily, but why 5%?  Why not 1 or 2 or 3%?  There are a lot of choices between daily cutting and 5%.  Smaller cuts are not slower.  Recovery times that take more than a few days are not healthy IMO.

[[Hi...]]

Is anyone else here tapering that is very sick and thinks that the pills have twisted on them? I think I'm in severe tolerance withdrawal but also ever since reinstating I just got sicker and sicker I'm finally starting to taper but my symptoms are unmanageable regardless I have a 3% taper plan for this month I. Am not doing well but I gotta get off the methadone too I can't taper one and then the other I got to do both but I'm ganna go slow on both I may hold on the methadone once I get low enough but like 1mg every couple weeks it really really messes with my depression andmood and all other symptoms the lower I get the less good days I have and more fear and brain flips I am scared that because my liver is getting so bad my hepatitis c that it is messing with my taper and metabolism of these meds. And I'm scared I won't heal cuz my liver.

 

My name is Chris I'm really sick and lonely and I could really use some friends and a mentor to help guide me throughthe taper. I'm holding on my first cut of .010 for ten days and then the next ppill for ten days.

This is weight of pills which is total of .900

 

Please pm me and keep me company

 

Anyone else get fatigue so bad that it litterally feels like your dying? Or your brain flips from all the fear that's piled up and your brain litterally feels like it's a different person that operates on terms of fear and terror and sickness?

Does anyone have episodes where symptoms are so severe and powerful it's all you can focus on and they consume you? I'm trying to get out of this thought pattern but it's almost impossible when you are crazy

 

Trying to be positive my girl friend my main support and caregiver just left on vacation so I'm alone and need some guidance

Chris....

[[nx...]]

Hey bud I'm in the same situation but I jumped @ 5mg mdone,cuz I was already in w/d 4 days later all better,everyone is diff. but I just had stomach cramps n diarea,cold chills typical opiate symptoms.... you can see in my signature how my taper is going it is hard...if I hadn't joined this community I think i may have been committed lol

[[Ma...]]

Think about what is happening.  The benzo - whether K or V - is occupying the receptor and keeping you out of withdrawal.  They are interchangeable.  Why is K 20 times stronger than V?  I think it is because K has more "affinity" to bind to the receptor.  I think what it comes down to is V binds and hangs on for a certain amount of time, then lets go.  K does the same thing, but because it has more binding affinity it hangs on 20x longer than V.

 

Crossing 1.5mg is reasonable.  It is 50%, but I don't think you would be able to taper all the K before you ran out.  I think it would last about six months.  Tapering 1.5mg in that time is possible, but not likely.  So then you would still have to cross what remains.

 

I know you don't want to cut daily, but why 5%?  Why not 1 or 2 or 3%?  There are a lot of choices between daily cutting and 5%.  Smaller cuts are not slower.  Recovery times that take more than a few days are not healthy IMO.

That makes sense. I am glad you say they are interchangeable I worry about that. When I took the 10mg of V on Tues and I still felt the K wd sxs, but not as bad. My heart was racing and I got scared and took K. I should not have taken V that night. I was just being impulsive and wanted to try it. I know you can't tell anything really from one time, but I felt I tolerated it well and it stayed in my system longer. So you are saying as long as I have 20x the amount of k, my body will adjust?

 

I am still not sure if I should c/o 1mg, 1.5mg, or 2mgs. I saw my therapist today and she said I definitely should not count on having a new pdoc who will rx both. She hopes I find one, but knows it will be hard to find a benzo wise pdoc who is accepting new patients. she works with my pdoc and doesn't understand why he is so well known in the area. She said I should lie to him, which I had no qualms about to begin with anyway. She thought maybe I should switch c/o 1mg and then hold two weeks and see if I felt like I could add more or not. She is not a medical dr and is not claiming to be. She knows about benzo wd bc she listens to her clients, unlike my pdoc. She wasn't trying to give me medical advice, just an idea because I told her I didn't know for sure how I tolerate V or how much V I could tolerate. Also that I didn't know when I would know. I don't know if that makes any sense?

 

I think MTing makes so much sense. It clearly works for so many. I really thought it would work for me and I was surprised when it didn't. I can only speak from my experience. I mean no disrespect to this wonderful thread. When I cut .003g a day I was having sxs and I felt like the daily cuts annoyed my body and I was cutting less than with cut and hold.  Then with .001g I felt like I was in tol wd...depressed and tired...which for me is really awful. I never had depression before tol wd. Also I was cutting 5% a month. I can cut at least 5% a week with cut and hold. I know it's weird to everyone that when I went back to cut and hold, after MTing a little over two weeks, I felt better and cut more. I am weird. I think that my dose being higher may be the issue. I don't know anyone else who is MTing at my dose. Sadly, I am on 5mg less than I once was, but my dose is still higher than most people were ever on. My guess is maybe at a higher dose MTing annoys the body because the cuts are bigger and then when I made them lower my body was not recognizing cutting and it was like told wd. Maybe that makes no sense. I am just guessing. I know you have A LOT more knowledge than me. I just know for me MT did not work on my dose. I think at a lower dose I will probably need to MT. if I cut 5% I will be stable by Wed. Also with me because I metabolize K so fast, I feel cuts very quickly. I feel them fully within 24 hrs. Also 5% I stabilize very quickly and don't have bad sxs. Also I did 5.8% the cut before this and it was the same. My last cut I became over ambitious because acupuncture has been helping me and I cut 7.5% and I also cut from all four doses. I had never cut from more than two. It was kind of like two cuts to my body. I also had a lot of stress about pdoc appt, a stressful situation with my father etc. It took a week and a half to stabilize. It was a mistake. That is why I am going back to 5% every 7 days. I am not doing 1 or 3% because I can handle more. I want to taper in a way that I heal on the way down and it not too much on my body. I want to be at least semi functional. I also don't want to taper longer than needed. 1 or 3% is so little. I don't think my 5% cuts are unhealthy. I also am confused if you are suggesting cutting low amounts every 3 days or every week. I respect your opinion and you are probably right for most cases. Different things do work for different people and I can a weird case

 

XO Maya

 

 

 

 

[[Sh...]]

Started taper September 1.  From 1mg of K.  At .92mg.  Have to hold a lot more than I had wanted to.  Job is just too high stress right now.  Had hoped to be at .88mg tomorrow. 

 

I guess this is better than nothing.

 

Hope everyone is hanging tough. 

Shaani

 

[[Hi...]]

Losing my mind awesome....