Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[sh...]]

Can someone repost the link to that daily tapering spreadsheet calculator please.  I cant seem to find it right now.

 

Thanks!

sharkey

[[Ma...]]

,

 

I don't understand the details of metabolism...first pass, second pass, NAT2.  V (and it's metabolites) and processed by five liver enzymes.  3A4 and 2C19 seem to be definite, and there is disagreement between sources on which others are involved (1A2, 3A5, 2B6, 2C9).

 

Maybe you could do a small crossover and live with it for a while and evaluate it, then think about crossing the rest or not.  If the others got good results below 50% that is a good sign.  Maybe a small amount will do it.  Is 25% a good amount based on what others have done?

 

As far as crossing, as always, you are better off if you can get the smallest pill size as this will allow more control crossing small amounts at a time.  A few percent (of your total dose) a day is a good way to go, and hold as needed.  So for example, your total dose (in terms of V) is 60mg.  5% of this is 3mg.  So if you swapped 3mg a day and held as needed it should work out well.  You could also do it in bigger chunks and hold more.  That would not be as smooth a road, but will get you there.  If you look at Ashton's tables she typically breaks a cross into six steps (i.e., 17% at a time).  Breaking it up further (i.e., into smaller percents at a time) will make it smoother.

 

I don't understand it either. My bad cog fog is not helping. I just spoke to someone one the phone at the place that I wanted to do further genetic testing at, but I am not going to because it will be $1000 and he said I had most of the info I needed already anyway. He said that I would metabolize V faster than most but it wouldn't be a problem and that genetically speaking I would do well with Valium. He said CYP3A4 and CYP2C19 are the liver enzymes that really matter the most with V. Then there is phase II with metabolites which I would metabolize well. He said genetically I am probably ok with klonopin because NAT2 doesn't affect it a lot, but he can't be sure. I do have the genetic data for the gene mutation, but I don't know how to interpret it. It is so confusing. He also said sedation with two Benzos is higher. That scares me a bit, but others are doing fine.

 

I think that is smart to do a small c/o live with it and see how I tolerate it. Then maybe in the future consider c/o the rest. I really hope I tolerate it well! I would guess 25% is an ok amount. I don't really know. I think the most I would try now is 30%, probably. You would know better than me.

 

I think what you are saying about breaking it up into smaller amounts makes sense. I hope my pdoc will go for it. I think if I go in with a plan, he will just say do what you want. So, I could say my goal is to c/o 25% which is .75mg k and 15mg v. I could get 2mg or 5mg pills. He probably won't care exactly how I do it. Now he just tells me you know more about tapering than me do what you want. He is fine with writing whatever amount of K I want. I hope he will listen about the V. I don't know if changing every day works for me. I think it might annoy my body. Do you think changing once a week 5mg of v for .25mg is too much or I could do 2.5mg v for .125mg k. I still don't know what doses to do. My pdoc probably won't ask. Thanks for always being so helpful!

 

XO Maya

[[Ma...]]

 

I feel terrible for ya, Maya (I responded to the PM). I'm truly praying that the c/o to V will help since you desperately need a longer half life. BUT, I'm glad to see that you're approaching all of this with patience and good logic. You'll get there. Trial and correction, beautiful ma'am. Between your doc, SG, and yourself, you'll find your road map. It's nice that you can get the genetic testing. I've learned a ton about it over the last few months, but I can't afford it and my insurance doesn't cover it. It's awesome to have that info going into all of this.

 

We're all pulling for you!!!!!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

Thank you so much! You always so wonderful and supportive. I really appreciate it. I will write back to PM later. I am not feeling great. I have sinus problems from allergies and my ears really hurt and I have a headache. I usually use sudafed with nasal decongestant or rx Flonase, but both rev up CNS. SG is definitely much more helpful than my pdoc. I hope to find a better one, but I am not getting my hopes up. I am trying to be smart about it. I really do need the longer half life and I hope so badly I tolerate V well. I know I will find my way, I just hope it's sooner rather than later. I need a break! I know you do, too! You are in my thoughts and prayers! I really hope your sleep gets better!

 

I did the 23andme ancestry DNA test ($99) and it gave me my raw genetic data. I uploaded it to two sites livewell.com ($20) and MTHRsupport.com ($30 also called Sterlings app). They both have me all the info I needed, but didn't interpret everything I needed in a way I could understand, but it was enough to get the info I wrote before. I wanted to do more tests tomorrow, but it would be $1000 and I have the info just need someone to interpret it. I may skype with a practioners depending on their price. There were none listed for MA which I find weird. Is there something specific you are looking for? Maybe those tests can help you.

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

I don't know if changing every day works for me. I think it might annoy my body. Do you think changing once a week 5mg of v for .25mg is too much or I could do 2.5mg v for .125mg k. I still don't know what doses to do. My pdoc probably won't ask. Thanks for always being so helpful!

 

XO Maya

 

You're welcome.

 

Your total dose is 60mg V so 5mg is 8.3%.  Giving yourself seven days to adjust roughly correlates to 1.2% a day, which is on pace for an 84 day cross if you were to do the entire dose.  That is quite gentle and I would think it would go fine.  You could probably double that and still be fine.

[[Ma...]]

You have really saved me! I really appreciate it so much! I was so stressed about tomorrow's appt. I am lot less stressed now because if I present a reasonable plan to him he will probably just let me do what I want. If I came in confused and not a clear plan he would probably say no because he lacks the knowledge to understand.

 

I think I will tell him I plan to cross over 25%, but adding 5mg V for .25mg K a week. Then if that goes ok maybe move up to 7.5mg V or even 10mg V. Then I will hold two weeks to fully feel the effects of the Valium. If I tolerate it well, I will then start tapering and later revisit adding more V or a complete C/O. Does that sound good? Then add at night first, then morning, then middle like Ashton? I plan on printing parts of Ashton manual to bring to him. I doubt he will even look. I mainly want to show him the half life and that 1mg K equals 20mg V because it doesn't know the half life and doubt he knows the equivalent of K to V.

[[...]]

You have really saved me! I really appreciate it so much! I was so stressed about tomorrow's appt. I am lot less stressed now because if I present a reasonable plan to him he will probably just let me do what I want. If I came in confused and not a clear plan he would probably say no because he lacks the knowledge to understand.

 

I think I will tell him I plan to cross over 25%, but adding 5mg V for .25mg K a week. Then if that goes ok maybe move up to 7.5mg V or even 10mg V. Then I will hold two weeks to fully feel the effects of the Valium. If I tolerate it well, I will then start tapering and later revisit adding more V or a complete C/O. Does that sound good? Then add at night first, then morning, then middle like Ashton? I plan on printing parts of Ashton manual to bring to him. I doubt he will even look. I mainly want to show him the half life and that 1mg K equals 20mg V because it doesn't know the half life and doubt he knows the equivalent of K to V.

 

Generally it seems like a good plan to me.  25% is 15mg V.  That may form a good base to fill in some of your blood level dips with K.  You metabolize K very quickly and it is reasonable to assume you will do the same with V, since 3A4 is also a main enzyme with V.  So V may also need to be dosed two or three or even four times a day.  If you add it just at night it may set you up for more interdose.  Each drug needs to be dosed on it's own schedule or you'll get a benzo low spot in your blood levels.

[[Ma...]]

Ok, good. I wish I knew how I would tolerate V because whenI think about I would rather do a c/o and do one taper. Maybe I can see how I am tolerating it after 25% and instead of starting tapering c/o if I am tolerating it well. I am getting ahead of myself. It is a problemI have. The unpredictability of tapering has been hard for me as someone who likes to have control and problem solve. I am really trying to use patience and radical acceptance. Did you c/o from K to V? I will metabolize V quickly. I was told because I also metabolize the other main liver enzyme involved with V CYP2C19 rapidly. The longer half life and metabolites should help that. I will metabolize the metabolites normally. So confusing! I think you are right about me needing to dose it 2-4 times a day. Do you think the first week I should add it to morn and night? I also am going to make sure I don't have anything planned for atleast the beginning of the C/O.  For that reason I will start next week probably.

[[...]]

Ok, good. I wish I knew how I would tolerate V because whenI think about I would rather do a c/o and do one taper. Maybe I can see how I am tolerating it after 25% and instead of starting tapering c/o if I am tolerating it well. I am getting ahead of myself. It is a problemI have. The unpredictability of tapering has been hard for me as someone who likes to have control and problem solve. I am really trying to use patience and radical acceptance. Did you c/o from K to V? I will metabolize V quickly. I was told because I also metabolize the other main liver enzyme involved with V CYP2C19 rapidly. The longer half life and metabolites should help that. I will metabolize the metabolites normally. So confusing! I think you are right about me needing to dose it 2-4 times a day. Do you think the first week I should add it to morn and night? I also am going to make sure I don't have anything planned for atleast the beginning of the C/O.  For that reason I will start next week probably.

 

Yes, I tapered K from 4mg to 1.875mg, then crossed to V.  The forum that I was on did not really support K tapering and tried to get everyone on V.  In my case that was bad advice as I only needed to dose K twice a day.

 

Since you already know you need six doses a day for K due to 3A4 I would assume you will need at least two doses of V.  Maybe even three.

[[Ma...]]

I am sorry that your were given bad advice. I would just taper of K directly if I dosed 2x a day. Did you tolerate it well? I know everyone is different.

 

I would assume the same. I guess I will start with two and go from there. I just was thinking about just adding at night the first week because Ashton adds at night only the first week. I thought it might be because of sedation.

[[...]]

I am sorry that your were given bad advice. I would just taper of K directly if I dosed 2x a day. Did you tolerate it well? I know everyone is different.

 

I would assume the same. I guess I will start with two and go from there. I just was thinking about just adding at night the first week because Ashton adds at night only the first week. I thought it might be because of sedation.

 

I was fine on K.  They had me fix something that wasn't broken.  But it worked out anyway.

 

The V may make you very sedated at first, but it won't last.  I am not sure why Ashton did it that way, but my guess is she thought it was more important to make the process simple, even though it wasn't the best way to proceed.  I think a lot of things she did were to make it simpler at the expense of a better way, like urging people to split pills instead of use liquids.

[[Ma...]]

I'm glad it worked out anyway.

 

I expected that might be the case. That is why I am not planning anything until I know how the c/o is going. That never made sense to me because Valium comes in liquid form. She also said that some on klonopin can't tolerate the c/o, but she never explains why. She says then to use a compounding pharmacy. She never thought to use a scale or maybe as you said she wanted to make it simple. Sorry, I keep asking more ques. I should try the first week you to add in 3 doses of V? I see with Dr. Peart he suggests a change every two days. Maybe I could add a night dose than two days later a morn dose, and then two days later a midday dose? I also noticed on Ashton's her example is 3mg which is my dose and she has cuts while doing the c/o. That is of course a complete c/o. Maybe I will make an appt to see my pdoc in a month instead of 3 months in case I want to add more V or c/o. Again, I get ahead of myself. I kind of want to just do a complete c/o, but I am too afraid and think it is me getting ahead of myself. I would hate to c/o to have to cross back like some have done. Kgirl c/o and then went back, but left 2mg of v. I took V once for a week. My horrific pdoc gave me 5mg of V on top of my 8mg of K because I was in tolerance and having trouble sleeping and he said it might help. It was as if I took nothing. I now realize that is because it was equal to .25mg of K which was nothing on my high dose. I just hate K so much! The fact that I have a gene mutation that could affect it badly, the large pill amounts, the fact that it doesn't come in liquid, the interdose wd etc. Sorry I am babbling on. I am too obsessed with my taper today, but I kind of have to be to prepare for tomorrow. Thanks again!

 

XO Maya

[[ga...]]

I'm glad it worked out anyway.

 

I expected that might be the case. That is why I am not planning anything until I know how the c/o is going. That never made sense to me because Valium comes in liquid form. She also said that some on klonopin can't tolerate the c/o, but she never explains why. She says then to use a compounding pharmacy. She never thought to use a scale or maybe as you said she wanted to make it simple. Sorry, I keep asking more ques. I should try the first week you to add in 3 doses of V? I see with Dr. Peart he suggests a change every two days. Maybe I could add a night dose than two days later a morn dose, and then two days later a midday dose? I also noticed on Ashton's her example is 3mg which is my dose and she has cuts while doing the c/o. That is of course a complete c/o. Maybe I will make an appt to see my pdoc in a month instead of 3 months in case I want to add more V or c/o. Again, I get ahead of myself. I kind of want to just do a complete c/o, but I am too afraid and think it is me getting ahead of myself. I would hate to c/o to have to cross back like some have done. Kgirl c/o and then went back, but left 2mg of v. I took V once for a week. My horrific pdoc gave me 5mg of V on top of my 8mg of K because I was in tolerance and having trouble sleeping and he said it might help. It was as if I took nothing. I now realize that is because it was equal to .25mg of K which was nothing on my high dose. I just hate K so much! The fact that I have a gene mutation that could affect it badly, the large pill amounts, the fact that it doesn't come in liquid, the interdose wd etc. Sorry I am babbling on. I am too obsessed with my taper today, but I kind of have to be to prepare for tomorrow. Thanks again!

 

XO Maya

 

Hi Maya. 

 

I've been trying to catch up with this thread and I see you are considering a partial cross over. I am about half X and half L right now which feels better than all X. The crossing was a little bumpy but not terrible. I did  not taper during the weeks I crossed. I subbed approximately one half of one dose every 3 or 4 days until I felt more comfortable.

 

I now dose the L capsules 3 times a day and the X liquid 5 times. I am tapering away the X while keeping the L steady. When the X is gone, I will begin the L taper. I did find L (like V) to be depressing and sedating each time I added a little but I seemed to adjust back to baseline within a few days until my last substitution. I stayed depressed for weeks. Then I felt I had crossed too far and backed up, subtracted one L capsule and put the equivalency of X back on. For some reason that was much more unpleasant than the other direction. It felt like a big cut. But I got past it.

 

Now I think I've finally figured out a good balance of the two drugs for me. It was a bit of work and cost me some slowing of my taper, but it was worth it for me. I was just jumping out of my skin on the X once I got down to 1 mg/day. Now I have windows of very low anxiety. Yes, I have some depression, too, but not overwhelming unless I hit a big life stressor. If you are one of the lucky ones whose doctor will go along with it, a partial crossover is definitely worth a careful try. I hope it helps you the way it helped me.

 

BTW, I'm still trying to find a DBT therapist who is a good fit. I spoke with one today that has actually worked with people doing slow benzo tapers who said 2 years was a reasonable time to taper and who knew what I meant when I said I was doing a daily micro taper. I almost passed out from shock!   

 

Gard

[[Ma...]]

I'm glad it worked out anyway.

 

I expected that might be the case. That is why I am not planning anything until I know how the c/o is going. That never made sense to me because Valium comes in liquid form. She also said that some on klonopin can't tolerate the c/o, but she never explains why. She says then to use a compounding pharmacy. She never thought to use a scale or maybe as you said she wanted to make it simple. Sorry, I keep asking more ques. I should try the first week you to add in 3 doses of V? I see with Dr. Peart he suggests a change every two days. Maybe I could add a night dose than two days later a morn dose, and then two days later a midday dose? I also noticed on Ashton's her example is 3mg which is my dose and she has cuts while doing the c/o. That is of course a complete c/o. Maybe I will make an appt to see my pdoc in a month instead of 3 months in case I want to add more V or c/o. Again, I get ahead of myself. I kind of want to just do a complete c/o, but I am too afraid and think it is me getting ahead of myself. I would hate to c/o to have to cross back like some have done. Kgirl c/o and then went back, but left 2mg of v. I took V once for a week. My horrific pdoc gave me 5mg of V on top of my 8mg of K because I was in tolerance and having trouble sleeping and he said it might help. It was as if I took nothing. I now realize that is because it was equal to .25mg of K which was nothing on my high dose. I just hate K so much! The fact that I have a gene mutation that could affect it badly, the large pill amounts, the fact that it doesn't come in liquid, the interdose wd etc. Sorry I am babbling on. I am too obsessed with my taper today, but I kind of have to be to prepare for tomorrow. Thanks again!

 

XO Maya

 

Hi Maya. 

 

I've been trying to catch up with this thread and I see you are considering a partial cross over. I am about half X and half L right now which feels better than all X. The crossing was a little bumpy but not terrible. I did  not taper during the weeks I crossed. I subbed approximately one half of one dose every 3 or 4 days until I felt more comfortable.

 

I now dose the L capsules 3 times a day and the X liquid 5 times. I am tapering away the X while keeping the L steady. When the X is gone, I will begin the L taper. I did find L (like V) to be depressing and sedating each time I added a little but I seemed to adjust back to baseline within a few days until my last substitution. I stayed depressed for weeks. Then I felt I had crossed too far and backed up, subtracted one L capsule and put the equivalency of X back on. For some reason that was much more unpleasant than the other direction. It felt like a big cut. But I got past it.

 

Now I think I've finally figured out a good balance of the two drugs for me. It was a bit of work and cost me some slowing of my taper, but it was worth it for me. I was just jumping out of my skin on the X once I got down to 1 mg/day. Now I have windows of very low anxiety. Yes, I have some depression, too, but not overwhelming unless I hit a big life stressor. If you are one of the lucky ones whose doctor will go along with it, a partial crossover is definitely worth a careful try. I hope it helps you the way it helped me.

 

BTW, I'm still trying to find a DBT therapist who is a good fit. I spoke with one today that has actually worked with people doing slow benzo tapers who said 2 years was a reasonable time to taper and who knew what I meant when I said I was doing a daily micro taper. I almost passed out from shock!   

 

Gard

Gardener,

I was just thinking about you! I got locked out of my email account for days because my benzo brain messed up the password too many times. Then I saw you weren't accepting PMs. I have it back on my iPad, but still not on my Mac, still. Then I forgot to write you back. Then I have been having a rough time. I am so sorry! It's like I am losing my mind. My cog fog is so bad! I have been thinking of you and hoping you are well!

 

I am planning do a partial C/O to V. I didn't realize you did half your dose. I thought less for some reason. How much was one half of a dose for you? You were dosing 6x too, right? I feel like I metabolize klonopin like most metabolize X. I will metabolize V fast as well. I did some genetic testing. It will have the longer half life and the metabolites phaseII I will metabolize normally. Genetically my body should react well to V. I hope so badly I tolerate it well! How long was your C/O? How long did you hold after? Are you not doing a complete C/O because of the depression Librium? Sorry I have a lot of questions. I hope Valium is not depressing and sedating for me. In tolerance wd depression and fatigue were my worst sxs. I never had them until I was on K 6+ years on a very high dose. I hope your depression goes away! I'm glad you got past the difficult time of adding X back. I would have thought it would have helped. So weird how these meds act.

 

I'm glad it is worth it for you and it has helped so much! I fear the lower I get the worse the interdose wd will get. That has been the pattern so far. I can't imagine taking X. I did for a week and it left my system so quick. I would have to dose every hour. I think my pdoc will listen to me, but I can't be 100% sure. I know he is misinformed about V and tapering etc. He usually does what I say, but he has been negative towards V when I brought it up in the past. Iwas just mentioning it, not asking for it. I think things will go my way, but I am stressed. I would of freaked out really badly, but once again SG really helped me. I don't know what I would do without him. Thank you so much for your advice! You are always so helpful and positive!

 

That's so great!!! I find that therapists know more about Benzos than psychiatrists. My former therapist, the one I always keep in touch with, has been so validating and helpful. He knows exactly what we go through. My current therapist also knows more than my pdoc and she has my back with him. I hope this one is a good fit. DBT therapy saved my life! I think you will get a lot from it! Sending you lots of love and well wishes! Keep me posted on how things go! I hope you and your family are well!

 

:smitten:

 

XO Maya

[[ga...]]

 

Gardener,

I was just thinking about you! I got locked out of my email account for days because my benzo brain messed up the password too many times. Then I saw you weren't accepting PMs. I have it back on my iPad, but still not on my Mac, still. Then I forgot to write you back. Then I have been having a rough time. I am so sorry! It's like I am losing my mind. My cog fog is so bad! I have been thinking of you and hoping you are well!

 

I am planning do a partial C/O to V. I didn't realize you did half your dose. I thought less for some reason. How much was one half of a dose for you? You were dosing 6x too, right? I feel like I metabolize klonopin like most metabolize X. I will metabolize V fast as well. I did some genetic testing. It will have the longer half life and the metabolites phaseII I will metabolize normally. Genetically my body should react well to V. I hope so badly I tolerate it well! How long was your C/O? How long did you hold after? Are you not doing a complete C/O because of the depression Librium? Sorry I have a lot of questions. I hope Valium is not depressing and sedating for me. In tolerance wd depression and fatigue were my worst sxs. I never had them until I was on K 6+ years on a very high dose. I hope your depression goes away! I'm glad you got past the difficult time of adding X back. I would have thought it would have helped. So weird how these meds act.

 

I'm glad it is worth it for you and it has helped so much! I fear the lower I get the worse the interdose wd will get. That has been the pattern so far. I can't imagine taking X. I did for a week and it left my system so quick. I would have to dose every hour. I think my pdoc will listen to me, but I can't be 100% sure. I know he is misinformed about V and tapering etc. He usually does what I say, but he has been negative towards V when I brought it up in the past. Iwas just mentioning it, not asking for it. I think things will go my way, but I am stressed. I would of freaked out really badly, but once again SG really helped me. I don't know what I would do without him. Thank you so much for your advice! You are always so helpful and positive!

 

That's so great!!! I find that therapists know more about Benzos than psychiatrists. My former therapist, the one I always keep in touch with, has been so validating and helpful. He knows exactly what we go through. My current therapist also knows more than my pdoc and she has my back with him. I hope this one is a good fit. DBT therapy saved my life! I think you will get a lot from it! Sending you lots of love and well wishes! Keep me posted on how things go! I hope you and your family are well!

 

:smitten:

 

XO Maya

 

Hitting the sack soon, but will write back tomorrow (unless I space it out)! 

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Gardener,

Just reply whenever you want. I know you aren't on BB as much. Email me if you want. It is working again at least on my iPad which is what I use mostly anyway. I can't believe I didn't think to post on your blog 

 

I hope you sleep well! 

[[ga...]]

Gardener,

Just reply whenever you want. I know you aren't on BB as much. Email me if you want. It is working again at least on my iPad which is what I use mostly anyway. I can't believe I didn't think to post on your blog 

 

I hope you sleep well! 

 

Was tweaking my post when you posted. Sweet dreams to you, too! 

[[my...]]

I wanted to respond to Bennie's advice on a MT with a huge thank you....I have to say, though, that it all makes my head spin.... ....sorry!!  Maybe with a cup of coffee in the morning....plus I am at altitude so that could account for it...on the other hand when I took my SAT's (remember those?) I scored high on the verbal but not so much on the math...honors in English/History and needed tutoring in Algebra and Geometry....get the picture???  I will try and wrap my head around this another time, as I said.  Meanwhile, I will try smaller, more frequent "cut and hold" cuts and hope for the best.

 

When and if I decide to MT, I will be back here for sure!!!

 

Again, many thanks.

 

Mana

 

 

[[ga...]]

 

Gardener,

I was just thinking about you! I got locked out of my email account for days because my benzo brain messed up the password too many times. Then I saw you weren't accepting PMs. I have it back on my iPad, but still not on my Mac, still. Then I forgot to write you back. Then I have been having a rough time. I am so sorry! It's like I am losing my mind. My cog fog is so bad! I have been thinking of you and hoping you are well!

 

I am planning do a partial C/O to V. I didn't realize you did half your dose. I thought less for some reason. How much was one half of a dose for you? You were dosing 6x too, right? I feel like I metabolize klonopin like most metabolize X. I will metabolize V fast as well. I did some genetic testing. It will have the longer half life and the metabolites phaseII I will metabolize normally. Genetically my body should react well to V. I hope so badly I tolerate it well! How long was your C/O? How long did you hold after? Are you not doing a complete C/O because of the depression Librium? Sorry I have a lot of questions. I hope Valium is not depressing and sedating for me. In tolerance wd depression and fatigue were my worst sxs. I never had them until I was on K 6+ years on a very high dose. I hope your depression goes away! I'm glad you got past the difficult time of adding X back. I would have thought it would have helped. So weird how these meds act.

 

I'm glad it is worth it for you and it has helped so much! I fear the lower I get the worse the interdose wd will get. That has been the pattern so far. I can't imagine taking X. I did for a week and it left my system so quick. I would have to dose every hour. I think my pdoc will listen to me, but I can't be 100% sure. I know he is misinformed about V and tapering etc. He usually does what I say, but he has been negative towards V when I brought it up in the past. Iwas just mentioning it, not asking for it. I think things will go my way, but I am stressed. I would of freaked out really badly, but once again SG really helped me. I don't know what I would do without him. Thank you so much for your advice! You are always so helpful and positive!

 

That's so great!!! I find that therapists know more about Benzos than psychiatrists. My former therapist, the one I always keep in touch with, has been so validating and helpful. He knows exactly what we go through. My current therapist also knows more than my pdoc and she has my back with him. I hope this one is a good fit. DBT therapy saved my life! I think you will get a lot from it! Sending you lots of love and well wishes! Keep me posted on how things go! I hope you and your family are well!

 

:smitten:

 

XO Maya

 

Yes, I was dosing 6 times and still am. When I partially crossed over, I picked one of the 6 doses and subbed half with L. Ashton has different crossing over example charts with different plans for different meds. I just picked the one that looked closest to what I was doing. That one showed subbing half of a dose at a time and not tapering for the first month of crossing. Don't remember where I saw it, though. The cross was bumpy but not terrible. The taper is still hard and slow but not as bad as it was before. I think my sleep issues and meds are a significant player in my symptoms.

 

You're right, I'm not on BB as much as I used to be and don't read every post in the thread like I used to. I'm just not in a place where it's good for me to be online every day.

 

I sure hope your doctor is cooperative and will let you give the V a try. You could always ask him about L if he adamantly says no to V. With its active metabolites, it's also very slow. I think it's almost as slow as V. I sure hope this works out for you one way or the other. And one way or the other, we will get off this junk!

 

Gard

[[Ma...]]

 

Yes, I was dosing 6 times and still am. When I partially crossed over, I picked one of the 6 doses and subbed half with L. Ashton has different crossing over example charts with different plans for different meds. I just picked the one that looked closest to what I was doing. That one showed subbing half of a dose at a time and not tapering for the first month of crossing. Don't remember where I saw it, though. The cross was bumpy but not terrible. The taper is still hard and slow but not as bad as it was before. I think my sleep issues and meds are a significant player in my symptoms.

 

You're right, I'm not on BB as much as I used to be and don't read every post in the thread like I used to. I'm just not in a place where it's good for me to be online every day.

 

I sure hope your doctor is cooperative and will let you give the V a try. You could always ask him about L if he adamantly says no to V. With its active metabolites, it's also very slow. I think it's almost as slow as V. I sure hope this works out for you one way or the other. And one way or the other, we will get off this junk!

 

Gard

 

Gardner,

I hate dosing 6x a day! How many times are you dosing Librium? Ashton has a schedule to C/O from my exact dose 3mg. I am not going follow it exactly. Also it is for someone who is dosing 3x a day. She takes half a dose of one of the doses of k and substitutes it with V, like you did. I think the first week I will add it two times that way my blood levels will be more even. I will metabolize V fast in phase I so I will definitely need to dose at least 2x a day. I am preparing for the cross to be bumpy. I don't want to have anything planned for the beginning of it. Also it seems like I will feel sedated at first. I'm sorry your taper is still hard and slow. Were you able to move up to 6%? At least you are moving in the right direction! I got too ambitious my last cut and went from a 5.8% cut to a 7.5% cut and I am still paying for it. I have learned my lesson this time. I won't be doing that again. It's crazy what a difference 1.7% can make. I hope your sleep issues get better! I know like me you need your sleep to function. Today I woke up earlier than I would like and I have high anxiety. I am stressed about my appt and my body is still not completely recovered from my cut. Also I won't wake up to dose K because I will have trouble falling back asleep. I wish I could take it in the middle of the night.

 

I know that being on BB a lot is not good for you right now. I know you are doing what's best for you and I think you are being very smart about things. Also it looks like a buddie blog is a lot of work! I think I am going to start a progress log because I am unable to journal, but I am able to write in BB. Reading and writing have become harder while tapering. I used to read every day. If you want to talk you can email me anytime. That email account is working again.

 

My dr would say yes to V before Librium. For him the "newer" Benzos are what he prescribes. Also I would probably metabolize K faster than V because it is metabolized the same way as K. Also its half life is pretty much the same as K's, but it does have the metabolites. Also the capsules would be difficult for me. I hate Roche! They made Librium, then Valium, and then klonopin. I hope so badly he gives me V and it helps. I will get off Benzos no matter what I never doubt that. I just could use a break and for things to not be so hard. The interdose wd has been killing for awhile now and it will just get worse. We will get off this junk! I hope this DBT therapist works out for you! I think DBT skills are so helpful. Keep me posted on how it goes. I hope everything else is going well for you!

 

XO Maya 

[[ga...]]

Maya, I'm dosing the L 3 times/day but still need the frequent X doses. I hate dosing that often, too. Wish I could have crossed all the way to L just to cut down on the dosing. Oh well.

 

Yes, the buddy blog was too much work. Maybe when I am better.

 

Good luck with you doctor. Email me and let me know what happens.

 

Gard

[[Ma...]]

Gardner,

 

I am just seeing this post. My pdoc appt was at 3:45. I'm sorry you have to dose so much, as well. It sounds like it's smart that you didn't completely cross over to L because of how depressive it was. I suspect you must be a fast metabolizer. I unfortunately think I have everyone beat in that dept. My pdoc is not ok with two Benzos! He said I could have V or K, but not at the same time. I said to give me V. I said that because I have a decent amount of klonopin. I am scared if I do the partial C/O that I won't find someone to give me both K and V in time. I have to count my k pills. There are a lot. At least 2 months worth, I would guess. Good thing I didn't get rid of all my 1mg pills like I did 2mg pills. My pdoc usually does as I say. I thought he would do the partial. I wasn't certain, but I thought he would. My other options are stay on just K or try a complete C/O and see if I can tolerate it. I don't know what to do *sigh*. I feel like I am an extra complicated case with my high dose long term use, my many years of tol wd, cutting getting harder,  my rapid metabolizing etc. I will email you soon. I hope you are feeling good and sleep well! 

 

SG,

I don't know if you have any suggestions about what to do. I liked the 25% plan, but unfortunately my pdoc did not. He doesn't care about which benzo or slow tapering, but I guess two Benzos is not ok. He said he had never heard of it and didn't have the knowledge to feel comfortable with it. He said if I got in a car accident etc. and he had prescribed me two Benzos he would be blamed. Thanks!

 

XO Maya

 

I have 200 1mg K pills and 90 .5mg K pills. Also a couple pieces, but not many. I was wasteful with K.

[[...]]

Gardner,

 

I am just seeing this post. My pdoc appt was at 3:45. I'm sorry you have to dose so much, as well. It sounds like it's smart that you didn't completely cross over to L because of how depressive it was. I suspect you must be a fast metabolizer. I unfortunately think I have everyone beat in that dept. My pdoc is not ok with two Benzos! He said I could have V or K, but not at the same time. I said to give me V. I said that because I have a decent amount of klonopin. I am scared if I do the partial C/O that I won't find someone to give me both K and V in time. I have to count my k pills. There are a lot. At least 2 months worth, I would guess. Good thing I didn't get rid of all my 1mg pills like I did 2mg pills. My pdoc usually does as I say. I thought he would do the partial. I wasn't certain, but I thought he would. My other options are stay on just K or try a complete C/O and see if I can tolerate it. I don't know what to do *sigh*. I feel like I am an extra complicated case with my high dose long term use, my many years of tol wd, cutting getting harder,  my rapid metabolizing etc. I will email you soon. I hope you are feeling good and sleep well! 

 

SG,

I don't know if you have any suggestions about what to do. I liked the 25% plan, but unfortunately my pdoc did not. He doesn't care about which benzo or slow tapering, but I guess two Benzos is not ok. He said he had never heard of it and didn't have the knowledge to feel comfortable with it. He said if I got in a car accident etc. and he had prescribed me two Benzos he would be blamed. Thanks!

 

XO Maya

 

I have 200 1mg K pills and 90 .5mg K pills. Also a couple pieces, but not many. I was wasteful with K.

 

Well, the good news is you have enough benzo prescribed no matter what happens.  He gave you enough V for a full cross.  The amount you cross depends on how much K you have and how comfortable you are lying to your doctor.  In this situation I would not have a problem with it myself.  It sucks that he is not willing to learn, but at least he is working with you within his limits.

 

If you crossed to a higher percentage, the K would last longer and would be gone sooner.  Once you count your K you could then lay out how long it would last for various percentages (30, 40, 50, 60, 70%) and pick one.  But again, the good thing is, even if the K runs out you will always have enough V.

[[ga...]]

Gardner,

 

I am just seeing this post. My pdoc appt was at 3:45. I'm sorry you have to dose so much, as well. It sounds like it's smart that you didn't completely cross over to L because of how depressive it was. I suspect you must be a fast metabolizer. I unfortunately think I have everyone beat in that dept. My pdoc is not ok with two Benzos! He said I could have V or K, but not at the same time. I said to give me V. I said that because I have a decent amount of klonopin. I am scared if I do the partial C/O that I won't find someone to give me both K and V in time. I have to count my k pills. There are a lot. At least 2 months worth, I would guess. Good thing I didn't get rid of all my 1mg pills like I did 2mg pills. My pdoc usually does as I say. I thought he would do the partial. I wasn't certain, but I thought he would. My other options are stay on just K or try a complete C/O and see if I can tolerate it. I don't know what to do *sigh*. I feel like I am an extra complicated case with my high dose long term use, my many years of tol wd, cutting getting harder,  my rapid metabolizing etc. I will email you soon. I hope you are feeling good and sleep well! 

 

SG,

I don't know if you have any suggestions about what to do. I liked the 25% plan, but unfortunately my pdoc did not. He doesn't care about which benzo or slow tapering, but I guess two Benzos is not ok. He said he had never heard of it and didn't have the knowledge to feel comfortable with it. He said if I got in a car accident etc. and he had prescribed me two Benzos he would be blamed. Thanks!

 

XO Maya

 

I have 200 1mg K pills and 90 .5mg K pills. Also a couple pieces, but not many. I was wasteful with K.

 

Maya, I'm considering another try at crossing over to more Librium. If I had to choose between X and L, I'd take L, hands down. I still have a decent stash of X, too, so I feel pretty safe even if my psych tries to rush me to cross faster. Luckily, he hasn't done that yet, but I see him in 2 weeks to discuss my crossover. Not sure what he's going to say about my stalling out. 

[[Hi...]]

Hi guys so I've been here before but still have not started tapering I'm having extreme symptoms and have tried everything to stabilize and have just gotten worse. I'm ready not really to taper but I have to I have hep c that is progressing very rapidly and I'm very sick and it's confusing what is from.meds and the hep I can't exactly micro taper using my scale because it's off a bit but if I'm severely kindled and I'm having massive mental breakdowns and akathisia and just really really messed up not stable at all but I need to get in a direction.

 

I take 6mg ativan 2mg 3x a day. Each pills weighs .300 so should I taper all pills at same time or should I cut morning for ten days then afternoon for ten days and then night for ten days? Is that a acceptable method. I was thinking of starting to cut .010 from my morning dose for ten days then from afternoon and then from night so in a month I will have tapered .030 out of 900 is that a good place to start? I'm severely symptomatic no matter what. And my waves include full on brain flips and trauma and nervous breakdown where I get lost in my symptoms

 

What do yoAlso going to taper methadone  1mg every couple weeks what do youu think buddies?

 

Ps I just tried this supplement amino acid called nac for my liver antioxidants but found it to lift my mood and positiveenergy don't know if it coincidental.

[[Ul...]]

 

I feel terrible for ya, Maya (I responded to the PM). I'm truly praying that the c/o to V will help since you desperately need a longer half life. BUT, I'm glad to see that you're approaching all of this with patience and good logic. You'll get there. Trial and correction, beautiful ma'am. Between your doc, SG, and yourself, you'll find your road map. It's nice that you can get the genetic testing. I've learned a ton about it over the last few months, but I can't afford it and my insurance doesn't cover it. It's awesome to have that info going into all of this.

 

We're all pulling for you!!!!!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

Thank you so much! You always so wonderful and supportive. I really appreciate it. I will write back to PM later. I am not feeling great. I have sinus problems from allergies and my ears really hurt and I have a headache. I usually use sudafed with nasal decongestant or rx Flonase, but both rev up CNS. SG is definitely much more helpful than my pdoc. I hope to find a better one, but I am not getting my hopes up. I am trying to be smart about it. I really do need the longer half life and I hope so badly I tolerate V well. I know I will find my way, I just hope it's sooner rather than later. I need a break! I know you do, too! You are in my thoughts and prayers! I really hope your sleep gets better!

 

I did the 23andme ancestry DNA test ($99) and it gave me my raw genetic data. I uploaded it to two sites livewell.com ($20) and MTHRsupport.com ($30 also called Sterlings app). They both have me all the info I needed, but didn't interpret everything I needed in a way I could understand, but it was enough to get the info I wrote before. I wanted to do more tests tomorrow, but it would be $1000 and I have the info just need someone to interpret it. I may skype with a practioners depending on their price. There were none listed for MA which I find weird. Is there something specific you are looking for? Maybe those tests can help you.

 

XO Maya

 

No, I'm not looking for any particular test, Maya. I just got interested in it when I listened to a few podcasts and conferences about it all. I'm no pro, by any means, but it's interesting and I know that a lot of people benefit from it. Lordy, I hope it helps you!! And SG, many thanks helping her so much! You both rock...

 

Jeff