Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[an...]]

Hi All,

 

I want to share with you all that I just finished my taper and my victory post is here http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=143216.0.  I want to thank those of you in this support group for your support.  I don't post often here but do read every day.  This is a very positive group and I hope my success is encouraging for those of you still in different phases of withdrawal.  There is an end.  Every day goes by and eventually you are there.  I wish you all the best and will lend my support when I can.

 

Regards,

 

Ben

 

Ben,

Congratulations to you!!  I wish you nothing but the best in the future.  Job well done!!

 

Anne

[[bu...]]

Stella,

 

You don't need your doc to get you liquid. You dissolve Benzo in milk for titration. Someone here can help you set up a taper plan.

 

Bennie

  Yes, there are several alternate methods for liquifying your benzo.  But Rx grade is almost certainly the best, and simplest, alternative.

[[my...]]

Hello all,

I am considering switching over to the dry MT method in another week or so.  I would like to be able to keep up the pace of cutting between 5-10% every two weeks. Not that I have been able to do that all along by any means.  Well...that's the hope anyway.

 

What I just cannot get my head around is HOW it's done.  I have a gram scale but what actually do we cut off of?  Let's say you have one .5 mg pill and you shave off .002 mg per day.  How does it work?  I currently take .25 K 3 x a day with one .0625 added to my morning dose for a total of .8125.  I try to keep the doses equal but have not succeeded as I have gotten lower so I cut the mid-day dose first, then nighttime then morning.  Then start all over again.

 

If there is a particular post I should refer to, or??? I would really appreciate it.  Am holding for a bit but wish to begin again next weekend. Do not want to do liquid, but rather a dry MT from here to zero.

 

Many thanks...

Mana 

[[Mo...]]

Hello all,

I am considering switching over to the dry MT method in another week or so.  I would like to be able to keep up the pace of cutting between 5-10% every two weeks. Not that I have been able to do that all along by any means.  Well...that's the hope anyway.

 

What I just cannot get my head around is HOW it's done.  I have a gram scale but what actually do we cut off of?  Let's say you have one .5 mg pill and you shave off .002 mg per day.  How does it work?  I currently take .25 K 3 x a day with one .0625 added to my morning dose for a total of .8125.  I try to keep the doses equal but have not succeeded as I have gotten lower so I cut the mid-day dose first, then nighttime then morning.  Then start all over again.

 

If there is a particular post I should refer to, or??? I would really appreciate it.  Am holding for a bit but wish to begin again next weekend. Do not want to do liquid, but rather a dry MT from here to zero.

 

Many thanks...

Mana

 

Hi Mana,

It depends where YOU want to cut from.

You could just go with a certain percentage and then reduce that form one dose first.

Maybe for a few weeks, depending on how much.

Then you'd do the same for your next dose in the same timeframe .

And the next.

 

When you use Cale's, remember you're going by the weight of your pill and not the active ingredient in your tablets.is that what you were wondering about ?

 

I don't know much about your benzo. But when I was using the scales with Ativan, they were 1 mgr tabs. And weighed about 40 mgr or something ( I'm not exactly sure how much exactly , but you see that most of it is filler).

So, you'll be converting to mgr of the weight from your pill. Not by the 0.25 mgr active ingredient of your tablets.

[[my...]]

Thanks, Moodle   Well, I already understand the difference between the weight of the pill and the amount of the benzo within that pill as we purchased a gram scale at the outset, not sure when I would need it.  I've mostly been cutting and dividing by sight, though with this last cut, having to get exactly .0625 (around 18 mg or half of a .125 dissolvable tablet) I have been weighing more.

 

No, what I cannot fathom is, for example, how Clona21 was able to "shave" off a piece of K (Rivotril in her country) each night.  Off of what?  Once shaved or split, my understanding is that tablets lose their potency.  Isn't that right?  Also, which pill does one shave a bit off each night?  Eventually it would make for quite unequal doses.

 

Maybe someone will understand my question as I may not be expressing myself that clearly and expect there is an easier answer to something I am complicating!!!

 

Will wait to hear....again IT...but I'd still like to have it in my hip pocket if the next cut and hold goes as poorly as this one!!! 

 

Thanks again all in this support group...I plan to join you sooner or later and hopefully it will do the trick, taking me all the way down to zero and freedom. 

 

mana

[[Be...]]

Hello all,

I am considering switching over to the dry MT method in another week or so.  I would like to be able to keep up the pace of cutting between 5-10% every two weeks. Not that I have been able to do that all along by any means.  Well...that's the hope anyway.

 

What I just cannot get my head around is HOW it's done.  I have a gram scale but what actually do we cut off of?  Let's say you have one .5 mg pill and you shave off .002 mg per day.  How does it work?  I currently take .25 K 3 x a day with one .0625 added to my morning dose for a total of .8125.  I try to keep the doses equal but have not succeeded as I have gotten lower so I cut the mid-day dose first, then nighttime then morning.  Then start all over again.

 

If there is a particular post I should refer to, or??? I would really appreciate it.  Am holding for a bit but wish to begin again next weekend. Do not want to do liquid, but rather a dry MT from here to zero.

 

Many thanks...

Mana

 

Hi,

 

You will be weighing your pills and cutting off a specific number of grams from one dose per day. Meaning, put pill on pill cutter tray, use one sided razor and cut piece of pill to specified number of grams when weighed in scale. Use an emery board if necessary to rub off a very small amount when weight gets close to where you need it to be.

 

Please share what pill increment you use—.25 mg or .50 mg pills?

 

Also, what is the average weight of your pills?

 

With this info, precise dosage amounts in grams can be calculated for you. And also, will share conversion calculation so you can do this on your own.

 

It is important to know the average amount of drug in milligrams for each .001 gram of your pills—because not all pills weigh the same amount.

 

To figure this, first you weigh 10-15 of your pills individually. Then total those weights, then divide by the number of pills you weighed. That's the average weight of your pill.

 

My preliminary guesstimate is that you will need to cut .001 g per day over 14 days to reduce 5%. The percentage rate will creep up over time by virtue of having less drug to cut from, until you are off. You can deal with that by making cuts less often, and as symptoms would have you hold. But goal is to find a workable rate and stick with it. Hope this helps.

 

Bennie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[my...]]

Bennie!!

I almost wrote to you separately so I want to let you know how much I appreciate you reading my mind. 

 

I have .5 mg tabs and .125 mg dissolvable tabs.  The .125's weigh about 36 g.  I usually split the .5's in half to get .25 -- I was used to using the .5 Activas generic K - clonazepam and didn't choose to switch to the .25 dissolvable ones.  Just my thing.  OK...my .5's weigh - on average - 60g.  Is that right?  The .125's seem so much smaller and lighter than the .5's but that's what the scale says. 

 

Also, isn't .001 a pretty small amount?  I thought people did, say, .003 or even .004 but then maybe I am misremembering.

 

Last question:  again it's about the pill remaining.  So you shave off, say, the .001g leaving you with the remaining pill to take.  the next night - or morning or whichever dose one cuts from - you shave off .002 mg? and so on and so on?  Again it seems as though that one dose will be really unequal to the other doses during the day.  How do you deal with that -- assuming I understand now what to do which is shave off a bit more each day.  Still not clear on that point.

 

Thanks, Bennie...  this is terrific.  No rush...whenever you have time to answer. 

 

Very generous of you. 

 

 

[[my...]]

Oops...I think the pill WEIGHTS should be read in mg's not g's right? Oh, and I am currently dividing my dose as follows:

 

3 x .25 plus .06125 with the a.m. For a total of .8125 currently.  Since the beginning of the year, I have been reducing .0625 each cut by dropping that amount off the mid day dose first, then the night time, then the morning.  Then starting all over again.  Once I was to hit .75, for example, I would be on three equal doses of .25.

 

Also, I think I get what happens as you shave off these small amounts.  You can shave off the night time dose for two weeks, then perhaps, shave off the mid day dose for the next two weeks, then the a.m. Dose.  Essentially mimicking what I am doing currently with the cut and hold method.

 

Thanks again,

mana

[[my...]]

Bennie,

I'm an idiot!!  Not really, but I just checked the gram scale again and noticed that I had been weighing in ounces rather than grams, so please forget the weights I gave.  I'll do it again in the a.m. And write the correct weights.

 

So sorry. 

[[Be...]]

my mana,

 

No, you are not an idiot  . You get major leeway going through withdrawal!

 

I think you need to go through the drill of weighing your .25 mg and .50 mg K pills again to get their average weight. Set scale to grams. Is your scale calibrated? Instructions are in box, and if not, I can find link to manual for your scale. Presumably the Gemini scale?

 

Trust that you will soon understand this process.

 

Example:

Typically, .50 mg pills weigh about .170 g

So, .50 / 170 = .0029 mg

.0029 mg = .001 g

14 days of .001 g cuts would remove .0406 mg over that timeframe.

That is a 5% reduction.

 

But your accurate average pill weight is still required to figure this out.

 

MT is usually cutting daily or every other day. When cutting to make a dose, you'll always be removing .001 g from the previous dose. Think of the amount on the scale going down .001 g less per day than the day before.

 

It would be ideal to use all of one pill increment, only the .50 mg pills. Particularly since the OD pills crumble easily when cutting. There are two ways to go about this, both ways involve cutting only from the AM dose. This will eventually get your doses even. Depending on your Rx supply you could 1) avoid cutting the crumbly .125 mg OD and cut down from the 0.25 mg piece of the .50 mg pill until .125 mg. Thereafter you ditch taking the .125 mg OD. The AM dose then totals 0.25 mg and you now cut only from the .50 mg pills, OR 2) start cutting and weighing your entire morning dose—all of your doses—using the .50 mg pills.

 

Ok, time to quit for tonight. Catch you in the AM, pacific coast time.

 

Bennie

 

[[sh...]]

Hey my mana and welcome to the group!

 

One more tip about using the scales.  For some reason those scales are not as consistent between 0 and 1 so you may want to have something on the scale before you weigh your pills.  For example, put a 5g weight on the scale then add the pill so the scale reads 5.17g instead of 0.17g.  This has given people more consistent weights.  Then when you start the taper just subtract the 5 out of the calculations.

 

Stay strong!

Sharkey

 

[[my...]]

Thanks for the welcome, Sharkey 

 

I did weigh the .5 mg pills and the average weight was .170g.  This is for Bennie or whoever else can figure out what to do from here.  I do not ever take .5 mg pills though....so the rough average weight for the .25 halves is....half of that, or .085g.  I wish K came in smaller "solid pill" or enteric coated tabs.  I believe the .25’s only come in the dissolvable tabs.  If I am wrong, please let me know.  I will pay for the brand but I don't think the brand Klonopin comes in a smaller size than .5 before getting to the dissolvable form.

 

mana

[[bu...]]

  Once shaved or split, my understanding is that tablets lose their potency.  Isn't that right? 

 

mana

  No, that is NOT correct.

[[...]]

Thanks for the welcome, Sharkey 

 

I did weigh the .5 mg pills and the average weight was .170g.  This is for Bennie or whoever else can figure out what to do from here.  I do not ever take .5 mg pills though....so the rough average weight for the .25 halves is....half of that, or .085g.  I wish K came in smaller "solid pill" or enteric coated tabs.  I believe the .25’s only come in the dissolvable tabs.  If I am wrong, please let me know.  I will pay for the brand but I don't think the brand Klonopin comes in a smaller size than .5 before getting to the dissolvable form.

 

mana

 

Your .5mg pill weighs .170g so you are set with all lower doses.  Each .001g on the scale is .0029mg K.  Your scale can divide one of those pills into 170 doses.  Over on the KK thread Bennie and the whole  group are really experienced with pill filing.  Lots of good tips there.

[[dp...]]

  Once shaved or split, my understanding is that tablets lose their potency.  Isn't that right? 

 

mana

  No, that is NOT correct.

 

Builder is right. I think I brought that question up but honestly it's fine.

[[Be...]]

My mana,

I didn't forget you. Busy day for me. I can help you get you set up with exact instructions later today or tomorrow. As suspected, your pills are of typical weight. This is going to be easy for you. No worries about the MT, ok? Just make sure you start the process with a calibrated scale and then you'll be good to go!

 

Bennie

 

[[my...]]

Thanks, guys!  And builder, that was just something I thought, so...good to know.  Please, Bennie, no rush!  Am leaving tomorrow and do not plan to resume my taper until next Saturday -- plenty of time.

 

Thanks dpier and sg for understanding as well as encouragement!! 

 

Hope your day is a good one. 

[[Ma...]]

SG,

 

I am sorry to bother you. I am having a really rough time with interdose wd. I dosed  2mg 3x a day most of my 12 years taking klonopin. At 4mg I had to dose 4x. I just recently got to 3mg and I am dosing 6x a day. It is ridiculous and I am afraid that the lower I go the worse it will get and I can't dose more than 6x a day. I want to do a partial c/o to Valium to see if that will help. I want to start small because I am scared about how I will tolerate it. For me the worst sxs in tolerance wd were depression and fatigue and I have seen a few people have those issue with Valium. I also had genetic testing done and I have a NAT2 gene mutation that could cause me to have problems, including neurotoxicity. Also I metabolize klonopin really fast and I will metabolize Valium really fast in phase I, but at least it will have the longer half life. Then phase II with the metabolites I will metabolize it well. I am going to get more genetic tests ordered that are very specific only to medicine tomorrow. Tomorrow, I see my pdoc. In the past he has said I metabolize k fast, but that v doesn't really have a longer half life. He doesn't cross anyone over to v only klonopin. He is very misinformed. He doesn't believe in benzo wd syndrome. He thinks I am some extremely sensitive and rare case. He is not in the business of taking people off Benzos. He likes me and trusts me, so I think I can get him to prescribe Valium. He will be of no help with how much v to add, to which doses etc. I was hoping you could help me. I am dosing every 3 hours, besides when I sleep. I can't wake up to dose or I probably won't fall back asleep. This is how I dose usually now 9am, 12pm, 3pm, 6pm, 9pm, 12am. Thank you so much!

 

XO Maya

[[Be...]]

Thanks, guys!  And builder, that was just something I thought, so...good to know.  Please, Bennie, no rush!  Am leaving tomorrow and do not plan to resume my taper until next Saturday -- plenty of time.

 

Thanks dpier and sg for understanding as well as encouragement!! 

 

Hope your day is a good one. 

 

Hi my mana,

 

Your .50 mg pills weigh .170 g, much as I expected.  So, 0.50 / 170 = .0029 mg. Thus .0029 mg = .001 g. Each cut will be .001 g. When cutting to make a dose, you'll always be removing .001 g from the previous dose amount.

 

To start MT and get your AM dose even with others, cut only from AM dose.

 

You can either 1) use up your .125 mg ODT plus take a cut of .50 mg pill

OR, 2) take only a cut from 0.50 mg pill to make the dose.

 

If you go with 1) AM dose = 0.375 mg.

To start, every day take the 0.125 mg ODT PLUS  the decreasing cut pill amount of 0.85 g, 0.84 g, 0.83 g, etc. until it gets to .042 g (0.125 mg). Total dose will be 0.25mg at this point. You can stop taking the ODT and use only cut pill weighing 0.85 mg. Now all three daily doses will be even and you can begin rotating .001 g cuts between them.

 

If you go with 2) AM dose = 0.375 mg, about .128 g (using .50 mg pills). To start, every day take the decreasing cut pill amount of 0.128 g, 0.127 g, 0.126 g, etc. until it gets to 0.85 g (0.25 mg). Now all three daily doses will be even and you can begin rotating .001 g cuts between them.

 

Midday dose: 0.25 mg = 0.85 g

PM dose: 0.25 mg = 0.85 g

 

14 cuts will be a reduction of .0406 mg. That is 5% reduction in that time frame. It is conservative. If sxs are tolerable you may be able to increase number of cuts in that time frame. But remember that percentage rate of cuts increases anyway the lower you go. See how you do and take it from there.

 

At any point in taper you want to convert dose in grams to mg, do this:

(Dose in grams divided by .170) times .50 = dose in mg

Example: (.128 dose in grams/ .170) * .50 = .376 dose in mg

 

If anyone sees error, please advise. I am not doc, just doing calculation and trying to helpful.

My mana, come by Klonopin Klub thread if you want to check in about taper and support.

Bennie

 

[[...]]

SG,

 

I am sorry to bother you. I am having a really rough time with interdose wd. I dosed  2mg 3x a day most of my 12 years taking klonopin. At 4mg I had to dose 4x. I just recently got to 3mg and I am dosing 6x a day. It is ridiculous and I am afraid that the lower I go the worse it will get and I can't dose more than 6x a day. I want to do a partial c/o to Valium to see if that will help. I want to start small because I am scared about how I will tolerate it. For me the worst sxs in tolerance wd were depression and fatigue and I have seen a few people have those issue with Valium. I also had genetic testing done and I have a NAT2 gene mutation that could cause me to have problems, including neurotoxicity. Also I metabolize klonopin really fast and I will metabolize Valium really fast in phase I, but at least it will have the longer half life. Then phase II with the metabolites I will metabolize it well. I am going to get more genetic tests ordered that are very specific only to medicine tomorrow. Tomorrow, I see my pdoc. In the past he has said I metabolize k fast, but that v doesn't really have a longer half life. He doesn't cross anyone over to v only klonopin. He is very misinformed. He doesn't believe in benzo wd syndrome. He thinks I am some extremely sensitive and rare case. He is not in the business of taking people off Benzos. He likes me and trusts me, so I think I can get him to prescribe Valium. He will be of no help with how much v to add, to which doses etc. I was hoping you could help me. I am dosing every 3 hours, besides when I sleep. I can't wake up to dose or I probably won't fall back asleep. This is how I dose usually now 9am, 12pm, 3pm, 6pm, 9pm, 12am. Thank you so much!

 

XO Maya

 

Hi Maya,

 

That is a lot of dosing for K.  There are a few members who are on two benzos and they all seem to do fine and feel it benefited them.  If your doc will allow it I think a partial cross is a logical thing to try.  If you are at 3mg K then Ashton would put your full dose at 60mg V.  How much of the K did you want to replace?

[[Ma...]]

SG,

 

It's ridiculous. I don't know how much K to replace or from what dose. I see people with different amounts. I really think I can convince my pdoc to prescribe me Valium. He will be of no help though. He is only good for writing rxs. I was hoping you had some advice on how much, which doses etc. Also I am concerned by the NAT2 gene mutation. Also at least I will be aware I will metabolize V fast in phase I. I didn't realize I metabolized K fast until more recently. I will do very specific genetic testing just for psych meds tomorrow. I just have to get my pdoc to sign for it. Thank you for helping me!

[[...]]

SG,

 

It's ridiculous. I don't know how much K to replace or from what dose. I see people with different amounts. I really think I can convince my pdoc to prescribe me Valium. He will be of no help though. He is only good for writing rxs. I was hoping you had some advice on how much, which doses etc. Also I am concerned by the NAT2 gene mutation. Also at least I will be aware I will metabolize V fast in phase I. I didn't realize I metabolized K fast until more recently. I will do very specific genetic testing just for psych meds tomorrow. I just have to get my pdoc to sign for it. Thank you for helping me!

 

I don't know anything about NAT2.  That is a new one on me.  Do you know why you metabolize fast?  We know K is metabolized by one enzyme (3A4) and V by five, of which 3A4 is one.  If the problem is that you have an excess of 3A4 and that all drugs metabolized by 3A4 are fast, then V would also be affected to some degree.  But I don't clearly understand why you metabolize fast.

 

I think the way to think about dosing two drugs is that both drugs are independent of each other.  In other words, dose K as if V was not there and dose V as if K were not there.  So there would be no replacing doses - the remaining K would still need frequent dosing and the V would need whatever number of doses it needs.  At least that is what makes sense to me.

 

As for how much to cross, that is guesswork.  We have current examples from Gardener, Can Do, and benzogirl that I can recall.  Maybe 50%?  Or 75%?  25% just seems like not enough to get the effect you are looking for.  Although it would be good if you could sneak up on it from low to high.  Maybe begin with 25% and increase from there, stopping when you are satisfied.  All assuming the doc will go along with it...yikes.

[[Ma...]]

NAT2 affects the final elimination of K. NAT2 only affects K, no other benzo. It is why Marija has a neurotoxic reaction to K. I am a rapid metabolizer of CYP3A4 and CYP2C19. I thought those were the only two liver enzymes that metabolized phase I of Valium. I am doing genetic testing specific to psych meds tomorrow, so that will tell me everything I need to know.

 

I never thought of that to look at it that way. It makes sense, but I do need to get rid of k. I am not sure which doses do that from. I worry about the sedation, so maybe night? I need the longer half life, so maybe I could need it throughout the day. I'm not sure. I'm also having cog fog, I am stressed, having bad allergies etc. that is not helping me think as clearly.

 

Benzo girl did 35%, cando did 56%, Kgirl did like 15% I think. I forget how much Gardener did. She is on X. She doses the same as me. It is like K is like X to me. I kinda of just want to do a full c/o, but I know that is not smart. I will do a small one to see if I can tolerate V and think about that for the future as a possibility. I don't love the idea of two Benzos and now have concerns about K. I want to do even the partial c/o gradually because I think that will be the best way to do it. I think my pdoc will go with it. He doesn't know about C/O gradually. I have to come up with everything on my own. It is hard. I am looking for a new pdoc, but a benzo wise pdoc is rare. The couple I know of aren't accepting new patients. This pdoc also will never cut me off. Start with 25% all at once? I am sorry. I have no idea about this. 25% would be .75mg and 15mg of v. In the Ashton manual I think she gives 10mg of v at night the first week when doing a complete c/o from 3.5mg k to v. Also I know I will have to do a lot of holding and waiting to see how the Valium affects me. I want to do things the right way and go slowly as needed. I don't want to mess this up or suffer more than I have to. I don't want to have bad sxs or push my body too far.

[[Ul...]]

NAT2 affects the final elimination of K. NAT2 only affects K, no other benzo. It is why Marija has a neurotoxic reaction to K. I am a rapid metabolizer of CYP3A4 and CYP2C19. I thought those were the only two liver enzymes that metabolized phase I of Valium. I am doing genetic testing specific to psych meds tomorrow, so that will tell me everything I need to know.

 

I never thought of that to look at it that way. It makes sense, but I do need to get rid of k. I am not sure which doses do that from. I worry about the sedation, so maybe night? I need the longer half life, so maybe I could need it throughout the day. I'm not sure. I'm also having cog fog, I am stressed, having bad allergies etc. that is not helping me think as clearly.

 

Benzo girl did 35%, cando did 56%, Kgirl did like 15% I think. I forget how much Gardener did. She is on X. She doses the same as me. It is like K is like X to me. I kinda of just want to do a full c/o, but I know that is not smart. I will do a small one to see if I can tolerate V and think about that for the future as a possibility. I don't love the idea of two Benzos and now have concerns about K. I want to do even the partial c/o gradually because I think that will be the best way to do it. I think my pdoc will go with it. He doesn't know about C/O gradually. I have to come up with everything on my own. It is hard. I am looking for a new pdoc, but a benzo wise pdoc is rare. The couple I know of aren't accepting new patients. This pdoc also will never cut me off. Start with 25% all at once? I am sorry. I have no idea about this. 25% would be .75mg and 15mg of v. In the Ashton manual I think she gives 10mg of v at night the first week when doing a complete c/o from 3.5mg k to v. Also I know I will have to do a lot of holding and waiting to see how the Valium affects me. I want to do things the right way and go slowly as needed. I don't want to mess this up or suffer more than I have to. I don't want to have bad sxs or push my body too far.

 

I feel terrible for ya, Maya (I responded to the PM). I'm truly praying that the c/o to V will help since you desperately need a longer half life. BUT, I'm glad to see that you're approaching all of this with patience and good logic. You'll get there. Trial and correction, beautiful ma'am. Between your doc, SG, and yourself, you'll find your road map. It's nice that you can get the genetic testing. I've learned a ton about it over the last few months, but I can't afford it and my insurance doesn't cover it. It's awesome to have that info going into all of this.

 

We're all pulling for you!!!!!

 

Jeff

[[...]]

NAT2 affects the final elimination of K. NAT2 only affects K, no other benzo. It is why Marija has a neurotoxic reaction to K. I am a rapid metabolizer of CYP3A4 and CYP2C19. I thought those were the only two liver enzymes that metabolized phase I of Valium. I am doing genetic testing specific to psych meds tomorrow, so that will tell me everything I need to know.

 

I never thought of that to look at it that way. It makes sense, but I do need to get rid of k. I am not sure which doses do that from. I worry about the sedation, so maybe night? I need the longer half life, so maybe I could need it throughout the day. I'm not sure. I'm also having cog fog, I am stressed, having bad allergies etc. that is not helping me think as clearly.

 

Benzo girl did 35%, cando did 56%, Kgirl did like 15% I think. I forget how much Gardener did. She is on X. She doses the same as me. It is like K is like X to me. I kinda of just want to do a full c/o, but I know that is not smart. I will do a small one to see if I can tolerate V and think about that for the future as a possibility. I don't love the idea of two Benzos and now have concerns about K. I want to do even the partial c/o gradually because I think that will be the best way to do it. I think my pdoc will go with it. He doesn't know about C/O gradually. I have to come up with everything on my own. It is hard. I am looking for a new pdoc, but a benzo wise pdoc is rare. The couple I know of aren't accepting new patients. This pdoc also will never cut me off. Start with 25% all at once? I am sorry. I have no idea about this. 25% would be .75mg and 15mg of v. In the Ashton manual I think she gives 10mg of v at night the first week when doing a complete c/o from 3.5mg k to v. Also I know I will have to do a lot of holding and waiting to see how the Valium affects me. I want to do things the right way and go slowly as needed. I don't want to mess this up or suffer more than I have to. I don't want to have bad sxs or push my body too far.

 

I don't understand the details of metabolism...first pass, second pass, NAT2.  V (and it's metabolites) and processed by five liver enzymes.  3A4 and 2C19 seem to be definite, and there is disagreement between sources on which others are involved (1A2, 3A5, 2B6, 2C9).

 

Maybe you could do a small crossover and live with it for a while and evaluate it, then think about crossing the rest or not.  If the others got good results below 50% that is a good sign.  Maybe a small amount will do it.  Is 25% a good amount based on what others have done?

 

As far as crossing, as always, you are better off if you can get the smallest pill size as this will allow more control crossing small amounts at a time.  A few percent (of your total dose) a day is a good way to go, and hold as needed.  So for example, your total dose (in terms of V) is 60mg.  5% of this is 3mg.  So if you swapped 3mg a day and held as needed it should work out well.  You could also do it in bigger chunks and hold more.  That would not be as smooth a road, but will get you there.  If you look at Ashton's tables she typically breaks a cross into six steps (i.e., 17% at a time).  Breaking it up further (i.e., into smaller percents at a time) will make it smoother.