Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Ul...]]

Shaani, does that l-theanine help with sleep for you? I stopped Seroquel early 2014, but was in such bad tolerance withdrawal from xanax by then, that I never considered Seroquel a real problem, minus the inevitable insomnia. Was in such a dark desperate wave yesterday from losing several nights sleep, that I considered asking for Seroquel again. Trying NOT to add p-meds to the mix, but I need to work soon and this is hell. Going thru divorce.

 

V.

 

PS--hello everyone - sorry for my random post here.

Appreciate this thread very much.

 

Hi V,

 

Of course, I'll let Shaani answer her own question, but I do know that she uses the theanine and in conjunction with other things to help with sleep. I've done the same while also trying 5-HTP, Tryptophan, a little Melatonin here and there, Ashwaganda, etc. Individually or in combination, nothing worked at all. Then again, the crazy large dose of K for such a long time probably has a lot to do with it. As of now, nothing at all works for me. If you don't have any adrenal/cortisol blasts at night, then I'd bet that theanine or some of the suggestions from Shaani would really help. If the stress is what's keep you up, then I'm confident that Shaani's magic could be of great assistance. She's really experienced in this area and would be a huge asset to you.

 

Hang in there, and best of luck!!

 

Jeff

[[Kg...]]

I know this might sound very simplistic but there are some excellent you tubes for yoga,  mediation and hypnosis to assist you to get to sleep. Even if you don't actually fall asleep it will allow you to relax and the breathing exercises do help if you do this on a regular basis. These drugs mess with every system we have, I don't think it matters what is really causing it since it probably is all related to the GABA and other chemicals that are impaired by the use of these drugs. Now our bodies need to get back to working as they should w/o drugs and we just need to live through he..***!! to get there.  But we will. 

[[ga...]]

Shaani, does that l-theanine help with sleep for you? I stopped Seroquel early 2014, but was in such bad tolerance withdrawal from xanax by then, that I never considered Seroquel a real problem, minus the inevitable insomnia. Was in such a dark desperate wave yesterday from losing several nights sleep, that I considered asking for Seroquel again. Trying NOT to add p-meds to the mix, but I need to work soon and this is hell. Going thru divorce.

 

V.

 

PS--hello everyone - sorry for my random post here.

Appreciate this thread very much.

 

Hi V,

 

Of course, I'll let Shaani answer her own question, but I do know that she uses the theanine and in conjunction with other things to help with sleep. I've done the same while also trying 5-HTP, Tryptophan, a little Melatonin here and there, Ashwaganda, etc. Individually or in combination, nothing worked at all. Then again, the crazy large dose of K for such a long time probably has a lot to do with it. As of now, nothing at all works for me. If you don't have any adrenal/cortisol blasts at night, then I'd bet that theanine or some of the suggestions from Shaani would really help. If the stress is what's keep you up, then I'm confident that Shaani's magic could be of great assistance. She's really experienced in this area and would be a huge asset to you.

 

Hang in there, and best of luck!!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, I have a sleep app called iSleep Easy that I play in a loop all night long by my bed so when I do wake up, I can calm down quicker. It has lots of options for sleep affirmations and relaxing sound effects. I use the same one over and over so my brain associates it with sleep. Plus, I watch old black and white re-runs of Andy Griffith to help me unwind at night. I have this theory that black and white TV is less stimulating and Andy Griffith is definitely not stimulating. So my sleep arsenal is 1. alternating meds, 2. using my app, and 3. watching Andy Griffith!

 

About the receptors thing, the theory is that the lower doses affect the most receptors and adding more benzo above a certain point doesn't change as many GABA receptors. Most were changed at the lower doses. So, as we get lower in our tapers, we are forcing more receptors to up regulate (change back to the way they worked before). The more receptors that are being made to change, the worse the symptoms. This is why many people need to slow down their tapers as they get lower. The addiction really is set in the strongest at the lowest doses for many people.

 

Since I'm nowhere near low, I don't know what will happen for me. I do know I am below the point where the benzos do anything to help my sleep any more. (They were originally prescribed as a sleep med.)

 

Gard

[[Be...]]

 

About the receptors thing, the theory is that the lower doses affect the most receptors and adding more benzo above a certain point doesn't change as many GABA receptors. Most were changed at the lower doses. So, as we get lower in our tapers, we are forcing more receptors to up regulate (change back to the way they worked before). The more receptors that are being made to change, the worse the symptoms. This is why many people need to slow down their tapers as they get lower. The addiction really is set in the strongest at the lowest doses for many people.

 

Since I'm nowhere near low, I don't know what will happen for me. I do know I am below the point where the benzos do anything to help my sleep any more. (They were originally prescribed as a sleep med.)

 

Gard

 

Hi Gard,

 

That's quite interesting about receptors and may explain what I am experiencing.  It wasn't until I got below 0.250 mg K (25% of my original dose) that I started really feeling fatigued.  Fatigue has increased as my dosage has gone lower.  Do you have any reference sources for the theory?  I would be interested in reading more to get a better understanding.

[[...]]

SG..i had been using pieces for a couple weeks now and not cutting on my whole pills and my ears were fine..its that crazy high pitch like tinnitus and it started this morning a bit after i took the first dose..and has gotten worse as the day has went on..and not sure how to pull out of it..i have to leave in like 20 mins to get my hair done and not sure how i will get through this..hope to get some help as to what to do to get to 4 doses..a better way not all at once..or else get back to where i was at 3 doses..

 

thanks

 

deep

 

 

Hi DeepCanyon,

  That tinnitus is a weird thing. I have found that every time I make a micro cut, the tinnitus kicks in for a couple days then goes away. I am convinced it is my nervous system rebelling against the decreasing Xanax dose and the increased number of exposed receptors. Hang in there, Rose

 

Hey Rose. Just what does "the increased number of exposed receptors" mean? Explain that, if you would. When we "cut", does that increase the # of receptors in the brain (if so, is that a BAD thing)? Not sure how that works or what that even means. I've heard SG mention upregulation and down regulation, but never truly understood that. Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

    As long as we have benzos in our system, our brains do not make the gaba a and b chemicals needed for relaxation and sleep. The receptors for those chemicals have an affinity for the chemical composition of benzos and benzos lock tight into them when it is available. As less and less benzos are taken, more and more receptors are left with no chemical (synthetic as in benzos) to fill them, therefore the idea of them becoming "uncovered" comes into play. Because of this the brain needs to start "upregulating", meaning it has to start becoming normal and start producing it's own natural chemicals that benzos took the place of. When benzos are taken it causes our brains to "downregulate" or stop making the needed chemicals. Simplified explanation off the top of my head. Does it help? Rose 

[[...]]

CD..thank you for getting back to me..and i have only had a few episodes since i started my taper but nothing like this..i hope it eases up before i get to the place to get my hair done ..dont know if i will be able to let them color and wash it all out and sit still with all this going on in my ears...

 

and thank you for telling me to hang tough..i sure seem like i have turned into a scared wimp lately..and just need to suck it up i guess 

 

deep

 

 

Hi, I can't see how long you've taken a benzo, but I know that for myself, ANY change I make with my benzo causes a big upset to my nervous system making my withdrawal symptoms really act up. Fortunately they do calm down after a couple of days. It seems my nervous system is extremely sensitive. I've taken Xanax for 14 years and the prescribed dose was 1mg three times a day. However, I rarely took it three times a day, I took it twice a day, about 1 o'clock in the afternoon when the stress of my job as an RN peaked because of the end of shift time crunch, then at night time to sleep. I had multiple nasty hot flashes during the day and ones that woke me up at night. The whole time I figured it was menopause kicking in and job stress, but in reality it was withdrawal symptoms every day and night- for 14 years! Even as a nurse I had no idea that benzo's would do that to you. I trusted my doctor and the med worked so well for anxiety that I never bothered to learn about it. After learning about it here I wished like hell I never took it. The result is my system is super kindled, hence the ultra sensitivity to any change, whether a small increase or decrease. A couple weeks ago I was really busy, I fixed my afternoon dose but forgot to take it. OMG, I paid for that, three days of hell, cold sweats, hot sweats, tinnitus, heartburn, stomach upset.

 

I think it is entirely possible for you to have symptoms from a change in your dosing, even dividing it from 3 times to 4 times a day. It seems our brain gets really set in taking the med in a routine manner. But I do think things may smooth out for you after a few days- hang in there.  Rose

 

Got another one for ya, Rose: The night time hot flashes...is that due to your adrenals blasting out cortisol at night? I started having the "wake up" problem before I even started the taper or knew what the taper was (mega K dose for over 2 decades plus a snot load of other psychotropics along the way). I talked to multiple people and they told me to do a saliva test for adrenal stress. I ordered a saliva test kit and, sure enough, my cortisol reading at 4am was through the roof. It was out of the upper end of the range. That's high! I was waking up like clock work at 3:30am with a blast of a panic, feeling super hot, really nervous, etc. I still do. It's so bad now that I haven't had a remotely decent nights sleep in almost 8 months. I honestly do well if I can doze for an hour or two. After that, the blast hits and then I'm up the rest of the night. No wonder I can't cut!!!  Anyway, just thought I'd ask you about YOUR night hot flashes, etc.

 

Hugs!

 

Jeff

 

Hi again, I don't know much about cortisol or adrenalin surges. I would like it if someone could explain the physiology of them and how to counter them. I am pretty sure that happens to me too, especially with the hot flashes. I notice they not only hit at random times but also right before I drop off to sleep and right when I'm waking up, and they wake me up in the middle of the night. I can always feel them coming on before I feel hot, it's like a shot of anxiety hits right before the temp goes up, and I feel crappy. I know when I am stable they happen much less, but within 3 days of dropping my dose they start. I hate it. I wish I could just get off this crap now. Anyway, hopefully someone can explain the "surges". Take care, Rose

[[ga...]]

 

About the receptors thing, the theory is that the lower doses affect the most receptors and adding more benzo above a certain point doesn't change as many GABA receptors. Most were changed at the lower doses. So, as we get lower in our tapers, we are forcing more receptors to up regulate (change back to the way they worked before). The more receptors that are being made to change, the worse the symptoms. This is why many people need to slow down their tapers as they get lower. The addiction really is set in the strongest at the lowest doses for many people.

 

Since I'm nowhere near low, I don't know what will happen for me. I do know I am below the point where the benzos do anything to help my sleep any more. (They were originally prescribed as a sleep med.)

 

Gard

 

Hi Gard,

 

That's quite interesting about receptors and may explain what I am experiencing.  It wasn't until I got below 0.250 mg K (25% of my original dose) that I started really feeling fatigued.  Fatigue has increased as my dosage has gone lower.  Do you have any reference sources for the theory?  I would be interested in reading more to get a better understanding.

 

Sorry, I am in serious cog fog from messing up my meds on the weekend. I've read this sort of thing is various places including on BB threads. I'm sure somebody can come up with a reference. I don't know if it's been proven or just hypothesized by doctors who see this difficulty over and over as their patients get lower.

[[Hi...]]

Seriously I been asking for days now can someone please help me set up a micro taper schedule. Or help me get started this is the board for that isn't it.

 

So far no one has even acknowledge my existence I see in all your signs that you have schedules so someone can help me surely pledge pledge I beg you

[[Mo...]]

Seriously I been asking for days now can someone please help me set up a micro taper schedule. Or help me get started this is the board for that isn't it.

 

So far no one has even acknowledge my existence I see in all your signs that you have schedules so someone can help me surely pledge pledge I beg you

 

I left you a reply, Hip hop. I'll post it again,,,,

[[Mo...]]

Seriously I been asking for days now can someone please help me set up a micro taper schedule. Or help me get started this is the board for that isn't it.

 

So far no one has even acknowledge my existence I see in all your signs that you have schedules so someone can help me surely pledge pledge I beg you

 

 

 

HipHop,

This is what I put together for you back in July. Seeing you're still on 6 mgr Ativan , it would still be the same .

I couldn't find it yesterday, it was a lot of micro taper thread to browse through. But here it is, reposted .

 

Hope it helps....

 

This was Hiphops original question and my reply:

 

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

« Reply #318 on: June 18, 2015, 09:38:29 pm »

Quote

Quote from: Hiphopanonymous on June 18, 2015, 01:50:17 pm

Ok so is someone going to help me set up my taper plan please I'm finger begging I got my scale I take 2mg ativan 3x a day and each pill weighs .300 I want to do a daily micro taper and come off 5% every two weeks will someone please help me with the math for this I keep asking and I got one response and then they dissapeared. Is everyone so wrapped up in their own taper to help someone out that is desperately asking for help?I see in everyone signiature that you are all doing micro taper so I know someone can help me set this up please I'm not being rude I'm just desperate I really need help my sanity is riding on this I'm very sick I've been asking on multiple boards for weeks now

 

Please help me I have all the information you would need to help me set this up and understand

 

Please somebody.....

 

Then I replied this

Alright Hiphop,

Like I said per pm, I'm posting the schedule her for the first 5% per 14 days taper.

Remmeber, you're going per pill WEIGHT, which is 0.300 gram you said. The average pill weight for your 2 mgr ( concentration valium weight , not the actual weigh of the pill. Which is 0.300 gram)

 

This is for the first 14 days.

The increments are very tiny with a scale. It might be difficult to start at deist because it's so tiny. But eventually you'll notice.

 

Now, I never did more than 3 decimal,places. I rounded that off ,if it was 4 decimals.

Your scale might not be that accurate .

In fact, I'm sure it will fluctuate. And I weighed my pill a few times, then took the average and then went for it.

 

It will be very easy to make you the schedule for the next 14 days. In fact, this is made for ONE of your doses.

So, you could start this with ONE of your doses.

Then after 14 days, you'll do the same with your second dose.

And after 14 days, you'll do the same with your third dose.

 

Of course, when you start tapering your second dose ( same pill , same dose , same schedule ) , you'll have to shave all your pills for the dose you already tapered, too. To 2.850.

 

If anything isn't clear let me know.

This is how I tapered my Ativan.

 

Again, it would be really great if your doc will script you liquid Valium. It's more accurate and no weigh hassle. But if she doesn't, then this is what ya got.

 

This is for 3x 14 days. Because you'll be doing the same for all three doses. And will be 15% total of your dose after those 42 days.

The rest is just a matter of putting in a spreadsheet so just holler.

Good luck at the doctor tomorrow.

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

0.0015    is the 5% taper every 2 weeks (10 days of tapering)     

Where a single 2mg tablet = 0.300 gram-weight       

           

Day    Morning    Afternoon    Evening   

1    0.2985    0.3    0.3   

2    0.297    0.3    0.3   

3    0.2955    0.3    0.3   

4    0.294    0.3    0.3   

5    0.2925    0.3    0.3   

6    0.2925    0.3    0.3   

7    0.2925    0.3    0.3   

8    0.291    0.3    0.3   

9    0.2895    0.3    0.3   

10    0.288    0.3    0.3   

11    0.2865    0.3    0.3   

12    0.285    0.3    0.3   

13    0.285    0.3    0.3   

14    0.285    0.3    0.3 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And then I came up with this :

http://j.mp/1LmDebI

 

I am not sure where is at right now. My brain won't process more at the moment. I also couldn't copy and past well. Sorry. Hope it makes sense

 

Edit: I see the picture didn't copy well.

So here is another:

 

 

 

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/Seth_Ghiorse/Hiphop_zps9xbiftzw.png

 

[[Hi...]]

My scale only reads .000. So could I drop .oo2 a day? Like taper .002 off morning pill then off next pills the next day and then .002 the third pill the third day? Then .004 off morning pill the fourth day and so on? I can't do symptoms based taper cuz of the severe symptoms and waves that I have already.

 

Last time I tried to taper off a couple months ago I was in much better shape and I cut .010 off all pills and held for 10 days and so on and got to .270 in a month and got slammed so hard I can't explain the torment I was forced by my doctor to go back up to 6mg and mentally it never leveled back out and been experimenting with different ways like crossover to valium and I could not tolerate the valium possibly cuz my liver?

 

But I back on the ativan for a week now and it started lifting and now it's coming back down on me hard

 

I'm trying to taper off methadone too at the same time and it is painful and frightening

 

I feel trapped I feel like I can't tolerate a taper off of any sort

 

But I have to I'm so sick and mentally ill in torment

 

And so many stressors coming up I'm moving in with my parents tomorrow that don't want me there till an apartment open up where I will be living by myself and I can't take care of myself uggg

 

I gotta taper but my benzo doctor is a duech I can't handle this taper business I don't want to prolong the suffering but I know another detox will kill me or make me wish I was I just feel trapped and cuz my hep c

 

When your kindled and protracted even after reinstatement do you really not level out bet we cuts cuz the receptors are already exposed? I gotta do this but I can't I can't imagine tapering for two years and then being protracted with worse symptoms than I already have

 

I have these mental breakdowns and I need to control my fear and agony somehow but I have methadone and gabapentin Also

[[Mo...]]

Well, you said back then you wasted to cut 5% per 14 days.

If your scale Reads .000 then this , the picture I left, is what you do.

You shave the pills till they weigh not 0.300 but the weight in the schedule.

 

When you arrive at 0.285 for that morning dose, you do the do,e all over again for your noon dose.

Shave off each day according to this schedule.

After 14 days you're at 0.285 again.

 

The do the Same for the evening dose.

 

[[Kg...]]

Hip Hop I see you got help, I don't know how to taper Ativan so I didn't answer you - so please don't think I was ignoring you.  Sometimes you don't get answers because people don't know the answer. There is a support group for people tapering Ativan and perhaps you should post there as well. 

 

The history you give sounds like your body has been through a lot.  Do you have to taper 2 drugs at the same time or can you just stick with one and then get off of the other.  In getting off of a benzo the only way off is through - so no it won't be pretty but if you do a controlled taper you will feel better.  I was in awful tolerance when I had to start my taper after 3 failed tapers and I also tried full cross over to Valium and felt worse.  Now I am on a much lower dose than my starting dose and though I often don't feel good, compared to last year I feel much better.  There is healing as you go off of these drugs so just grit your teeth, take it day by day, and do it.  There is also a thread here for spouses but perhaps your parents can read it and see what you have to face so they will understand how difficult this is for you.

 

 

[[ga...]]

Hip, I don't know anything about Ativan, either, but I have heard that DBT helps with extreme mood swings. I have just found a therapist who does this and am going to give it a try.

 

Not in a good place at all right now myself because I messed up my meds on the weekend.  I just keep telling myself that time heals, time heals. Guess that's what I have to tell myself until my intake with the DBT counselor at the end of October!

 

Just repeating the same phrase again and again can actually be helpful if it is a soothing sounding phrase. Even a nursery rhyme or whatever repeating over and over can be soothing and distracting. Lately I've been singing "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy," because for some reason it is stuck in my head. Singing out loud is supposed to improve mood, so my son just has to put up with it!

 

I think following Moodle's plan is your best bet. (Though I can't understand it. I just know Moo has her head screwed on straight.)

 

I remember when I couldn't cut at all because I was recovering from a way stupidly too big cut. Waiting and waiting did not help, so I decided to move forward with itty bitty cuts. Just being able to move forward, even very slowly, feels better to me than standing still and suffering for nothing.

 

I repeat to myself: "Time heals," and "I am moving forward," over and over and over.

 

And that is all the sense I have for right now in my cog fog. Hope it actually made sense. 

 

Gard

[[Mo...]]

I am DONE!!!!!!!

 

Geez, it's surreal, my friends...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=134084.msg1918974#msg1918974

 

 

Love you all!!!

 

Hang in there everyone. This day will come for all of us.

I'm not there yet. But D.O.N.E

 

 

 

[[Be...]]

Congratulations Moodle!  Great and inspiring accomplishment.  I am just behind you ...

[[Sh...]]

I am DONE!!!!!!!

 

Geez, it's surreal, my friends...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=134084.msg1918974#msg1918974

 

 

Love you all!!!

 

Hang in there everyone. This day will come for all of us.

I'm not there yet. But D.O.N.E

Congratulations!!!    Shaani

[[ga...]]

I am DONE!!!!!!!

 

Geez, it's surreal, my friends...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=134084.msg1918974#msg1918974

 

 

Love you all!!!

 

Hang in there everyone. This day will come for all of us.

I'm not there yet. But D.O.N.E

 

CONGRATULATIONS, MOO!!! I am sooooo happy for you!!!

[[an...]]

I am DONE!!!!!!!

 

Geez, it's surreal, my friends...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=134084.msg1918974#msg1918974

 

 

Love you all!!!

 

Hang in there everyone. This day will come for all of us.

I'm not there yet. But D.O.N.E

 

MOODLE

 

Congratulations!!!  I am so happy for you.  I wish you all the best.

Anne

[[Mo...]]

Ben, Shaani, Gard , Ben...

 

Thank you so much !

 

Can't believe it.

The last dose as a bot of a non event. And then later in the day I started realizing it.

No Valium tonight. First time in a long and  25 months ...

 

We will all get there. All of you!

 

Hugs, mOO

[[ga...]]

Hi, Anne. Hope school is going well for you!

[[ga...]]

Ben, Shaani, Gard , Ben...

 

Thank you so much !

 

Can't believe it.

The last dose as a bot of a non event. And then later in the day I started realizing it.

No Valium tonight. First time in a long and  25 months ...

 

We will all get there. All of you!

 

Hugs, mOO

 

Thanks. I really needed to hear that today. 

[[Mo...]]

Ben, Shaani, Gard , Ben...

 

Thank you so much !

 

Can't believe it.

The last dose as a bot of a non event. And then later in the day I started realizing it.

No Valium tonight. First time in a long and  25 months ...

 

We will all get there. All of you!

 

Hugs, mOO

 

Thanks. I really needed to hear that today. 

 

It's true Gard.

 

I've spend many months in bed, despairing , knowing I'd never get it done, feeling so sick.

And there I am.

Just want you to know : it's not easy, it's not quick , bit it's the best thing you can do for yourself and it GETS BETTER.

 

Sure, it will take me a while to get all back in my feet and there's waves off and on. But man! The difference with a year ago....

Keep on going, not matter how.

[[ga...]]

Ben, Shaani, Gard , Ben...

 

Thank you so much !

 

Can't believe it.

The last dose as a bot of a non event. And then later in the day I started realizing it.

No Valium tonight. First time in a long and  25 months ...

 

We will all get there. All of you!

 

Hugs, mOO

 

Thanks. I really needed to hear that today. 

 

It's true Gard.

 

I've spend many months in bed, despairing , knowing I'd never get it done, feeling so sick.

And there I am.

Just want you to know : it's not easy, it's not quick , bit it's the best thing you can do for yourself and it GETS BETTER.

 

Sure, it will take me a while to get all back in my feet and there's waves off and on. But man! The difference with a year ago....

Keep on going, not matter how.

 

Yes, somehow or another we do keep on going. And with examples to follow, it is so much easier, so much less despair. We will do this! 

[[sh...]]

I am DONE!!!!!!!

 

Geez, it's surreal, my friends...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=134084.msg1918974#msg1918974

 

 

Love you all!!!

 

Hang in there everyone. This day will come for all of us.

I'm not there yet. But D.O.N.E

 

Moodle!!!!!  Congratz!!!!!  I'm so happy for you!  What a ride eh??

 

Stay strong!!!!

Sharkey