Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Ul...]]

 

 

What scales are you using to be able to get daily cutting accurate?

 

Pretty much everyone on the KK thread, including me, is using this scale:

 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012TDNAM/ref=sr_ph?ie=UTF8&qid=1442379151&sr=1&keywords=Gemini+scale

 

Jeff,

Good luck at your Drs appt! I know you will be cutting again soon! Sending you lots of positivity! 

 

Gardner,

Yum, I will eat gluten free chocolate cake with you! 

 

XO Maya

 

I've ised the exact same scales during my Ativan taper , before I crossed to Valium and started a liquid taper.

 

And a hello to everyone here.

Quick update : I'm doing ok but have some intense moments. This morning wasn't fun.

And then right now, I'm close to normal- ish.

 

I'll be jumping in two weeks or so, so fingers crossed, people ....

 

Moo

 

Congrats, Moodle!!! Two weeks to freedom 

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

Hello everyone,

I have decided that micro tapering is going to be my best option. I am currently taking 2.75mg's a day of clonazepam. I take my first dose of 1mg at 7am, my second dose of 1mg at 2pm, and my last dose of 0.75 mg at 10 pm. So I am dosing every 8 hours around the clock. I made my first cut about 1 wee ago from 3mg down to 2 mg and I am currently "stabilizing"--as much as one can-- on this dose.

I purchased the Gemini scale that weighs in .001 mg's and all the other materials to try a dry cut M/T. I have watched the YouTube tutorial, but I need help.

I was wondering if someone can help put me on a schedule, and help me start this journey, so maybe one day god willing, I get through this and help others.

I have been on kpins for 7 years, always at 2 mg daily, but 3 years ago it was up'd 1 more mg-huge mistake.  I utilize the VA so my options for help there are limited due to their strict policies and guidelines. I currently get the 1 mg pills and when I see my doc next month, I will request the .5 mg pills. Unfortunately, Valium is not an option so this is what I'm working with.

 

Please, any help with a schedule would be so greatly appreciated. I have not told my doc yet for fear of him pulling the rug out from underneath me and tapering me in two weeks, which the VA IS NOTORIOUS FOR. I've spoke with other veterans and they have gone through hell--with an agonizing 2 week Librium taper. So I have my reason to get off w/out my doc's supervision yet.

Anyway, thank you all for what you do

Holyhope

 

Holy, to he## with your doc's supervision (if they're going to try to get you tapered in 2 weeks)!! I'd say, just do what it takes to get the med so you can taper off it. You and I have some similarities in that I was/am on a high dose of K for a long time. You'll find your way! Some math guru on here will get you going. Just hang tough, and hang with this thread. It'll save your life, give you confidence, and give you HOPE along with the details you need to succeed. Great people here. I was pushed down the "two week taper" path too. Not a good plan, I learned.

 

♫♪Keep on...believin'...♫♫♪

 

Jeff

 

Good luck today Jeff.  Remember, the goal is to get the doctor to prescribe.  You will be in my thoughts today.

Anne

 

Bless you, Anne! It worked!!

 

We all thank you for your encouragement.

 

Have a super weekend!

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

I scrolled through but didn't see any news from Jeff (Ultra). Has anybody heard from him since his appointment? Or have I mixed up the date?

 

Gard

 

I just heard through the grape vine that he got it!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Congratz Jeff!  Rock on!!  And geaux tigers!

 

Howdy Sharkles!! Yep, got it, doing fine, and...GEAUX TIGERS (not Auburn Tigers though) 

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

 

You just made this sleep-deprived nut job laugh.  Thanks, Gardener!! Oh, and the doc I saw said he'll give me 2mg of clonazepam a day. He said that's the max he'll give out. He also said that clonazepam, K (all benzos) are NOT addictive. Also told me that I could get off my K in less than a month if I really wanted too. I kindly noticed his bow tie, dress pants, beard, running shoes, and weirdness while I took the script and ran. I was hoping for 3mg/day since I'm not quite down to 2mg yet, but I'll be fine.

 

Keep on rockin' this world girl!!

 

Have sweet dreams tonight.

 

Jeff

 

I'm glad to hear you're near 2 mg K that you got, so the drop shouldn't be too awful. Rather like a cut and hold, right? And then you can stabilize and start to micro-taper again. What a relief!

 

So I assume you're not telling Dr. Clueless you're tapering, right?!? You just need the K because of long-term anxiety made worse by your current life stressors. And then you get yourself off without his help. You don't really need it. You just need the script. Even my doctor who is "helping" me taper says he's just supervising while I make my decisions and set my own pace (snail-like).

 

Hope all goes well with your abrupt bump down. Remember, it's just a bump in the road and you can do it!

 

 

[[St...]]

So one of my taper symptoms from last year returned today. It's this strange sensation where I have a tingling in my nose and I feel overly excited, not anxious. Other than last year during my first attempt at a taper the only time I've ever felt this is when I've taken prednisone. What is this? What does it mean? I'm worried.

[[Kg...]]

I need some advice. I am doing a micro taper using the scale.  I can't use liquid, tried and failed that.  I started out cutting .001 every day and then have over time slowed my rate down to where I was cutting .001 for 5 days and holding on day 6.  Now I am at .072 grams (.21 mg of Klonopin) and I have hit a brick wall.  I also take 2 mg of Valium.  I dose twice a day taking .036 gram weight + 1 mg of Valium in the AM and other 1/2 in the PM.  I am now holding and hoping this helps me but it usually doesn't - the last few times I have held I actually have felt worse vs better.  Suggestions appreciated.  Thank you.  Kgirl

[[...]]

I need some advice. I am doing a micro taper using the scale.  I can't use liquid, tried and failed that.  I started out cutting .001 every day and then have over time slowed my rate down to where I was cutting .001 for 5 days and holding on day 6.  Now I am at .072 grams (.21 mg of Klonopin) and I have hit a brick wall.  I also take 2 mg of Valium.  I dose twice a day taking .036 gram weight + 1 mg of Valium in the AM and other 1/2 in the PM.  I am now holding and hoping this helps me but it usually doesn't - the last few times I have held I actually have felt worse vs better.  Suggestions appreciated.  Thank you.  Kgirl

 

Hi Kgirl, It sounds like you have used up your current cut.  In terms of V your dose is 6.2mg and you are cutting 1.5mg a month...that is 24%, which is quite high.

 

I know holding does not seem to help you as much, but still the problem from cutting too fast is getting ahead of healing and the solution is to hold to allow healing to catch up, and that is what I would do right now.

 

When you resume cutting it may be good to drop down to a rate of about 1mg V a month since your current 1.5mg rate seems spent.  You are currently making 25 .001g cuts a month so 1mg would be 17, which is about one every other day.  This will put your monthly rate at 16% which you can probably handle since you climbed to 24% before it bothered you.  It might be good to keep tabs on your monthly rate and keep it under 20%.  You've come a long way.

[[ga...]]

I need some advice. I am doing a micro taper using the scale.  I can't use liquid, tried and failed that.  I started out cutting .001 every day and then have over time slowed my rate down to where I was cutting .001 for 5 days and holding on day 6.  Now I am at .072 grams (.21 mg of Klonopin) and I have hit a brick wall.  I also take 2 mg of Valium.  I dose twice a day taking .036 gram weight + 1 mg of Valium in the AM and other 1/2 in the PM.  I am now holding and hoping this helps me but it usually doesn't - the last few times I have held I actually have felt worse vs better.  Suggestions appreciated.  Thank you.  Kgirl

 

Hi Kgirl, It sounds like you have used up your current cut.  In terms of V your dose is 6.2mg and you are cutting 1.5mg a month...that is 24%, which is quite high.

 

I know holding does not seem to help you as much, but still the problem from cutting too fast is getting ahead of healing and the solution is to hold to allow healing to catch up, and that is what I would do right now.

 

When you resume cutting it may be good to drop down to a rate of about 1mg V a month since your current 1.5mg rate seems spent.  You are currently making 25 .001g cuts a month so 1mg would be 17, which is about one every other day.  This will put your monthly rate at 16% which you can probably handle since you climbed to 24% before it bothered you.  It might be good to keep tabs on your monthly rate and keep it under 20%.  You've come a long way.

 

This is good advice. I have held for a long time without improvement after hitting a wall. And it was a very rocky hold. Finally I was able to start again but I can't go faster than 5%/month. I will stay at this rate for several weeks before trying a faster rate again. As SG said, it takes time for the brain to catch up with the healing if you go too fast. I think that's where I'm at and you may be, too. But, if you are patient and taper carefully, you will do better.

 

And we all do heal!

[[ga...]]

So one of my taper symptoms from last year returned today. It's this strange sensation where I have a tingling in my nose and I feel overly excited, not anxious. Other than last year during my first attempt at a taper the only time I've ever felt this is when I've taken prednisone. What is this? What does it mean? I'm worried.

 

I'm sorry, I have no idea. Have you tried asking this on the withdrawal support board or the other medications board?

[[St...]]

So one of my taper symptoms from last year returned today. It's this strange sensation where I have a tingling in my nose and I feel overly excited, not anxious. Other than last year during my first attempt at a taper the only time I've ever felt this is when I've taken prednisone. What is this? What does it mean? I'm worried.

 

I'm sorry, I have no idea. Have you tried asking this on the withdrawal support board or the other medications board?

 

Not yet.

[[Kg...]]

I did try cutting every other day and it didn't help me at all. I then sped up my rate and felt better - go figure.  On this micro taper other than one window (when I was cutting every day pretty much) I have not had one day where I have been s/x free.  I guess I will see how this hold works out for me -thanks for the help and for figuring out my cut rate - it helps to know how fast I am actually going.  I know I need the patience to get off this and be healing on the way down but there are many days I feel like the slow taper is a form of water torture since I don't feel well even when I hold or go very slow. 

[[...]]

I did try cutting every other day and it didn't help me at all. I then sped up my rate and felt better - go figure.  On this micro taper other than one window (when I was cutting every day pretty much) I have not had one day where I have been s/x free.  I guess I will see how this hold works out for me -thanks for the help and for figuring out my cut rate - it helps to know how fast I am actually going.  I know I need the patience to get off this and be healing on the way down but there are many days I feel like the slow taper is a form of water torture since I don't feel well even when I hold or go very slow.

 

It is hard to know what is going on and why you would feel better cutting faster than slower.  On its surface that does not make sense and we obviously don't know enough.  We have a simple model for what is going on and it does not explain all that you experience.  I wonder though, if you did a very long hold - several months - what would happen.  I have to believe it would be helpful.  I'm not suggesting you do this: I know you want to get off.  Just thinking out loud.

[[dp...]]

Yeah.. it's really hard for me to make sense of any of this either. I've gone ridiculously tame my entire taper and have still suffered horribly... then sometimes I'll have made a cut in the past and it will jar me out of a rut... sometimes it comes back to bite me, sometimes not.

 

... it's just weird how you can cut so slowly and still go through symptoms like this. Just goes to show how nasty these things are... and unpredictable... I've finally come to realize (after 16 months lol) that we just have to get off and stay off any way we can. 2 years down the road, it won't matter how we got off (well, don't c.t !!), but that we got off... crazy ride. 

[[Kg...]]

Dpier - thanks

 

And SG no long holds for me- that is how I ended up in tolerance so for me that doesn't work either.  I think I just have to get off this stuff anyway I can like  Dpier said.

[[...]]

Dpier - thanks

 

And SG no long holds for me- that is how I ended up in tolerance so for me that doesn't work either.  I think I just have to get off this stuff anyway I can like  Dpier said.

 

You may be right.  IDK.  There may be something going on with you that is different.  This whole idea of holding making things worse is mysterious.  Tolerance withdrawal...what is it?  I've never heard an explanation of what might be causing symptoms to worsen during a hold, but it does seem to happen.  My only point was holding is a good thing, at least for upregulation.  There are very few examples of people doing months-long holds, but the few examples I am aware of have all turned out well.  I know of no long holds that have been harmful, only helpful.  But then I know of only a few and none of them mentioned problems with tolerance withdrawal like you.

[[Kg...]]

Thanks SG I know you are trying to help me.  It is bad enough to be one of the ones who can't get off of this drug quickly - and then I guess I am in another small % that nothing seems to work for like Dpier.  I think for us we just need to get these poisons out of our bodies and if we suffer on the way down so be it.  My only huge plus is that during the course of my taper I have had windows - on both cut and hold and then when I hit around .5 mg on my micro taper.  When  come back from my trip I will  just push through this and get off anyway I can.  I won't go at a crazy rate but will try to have bearable symptoms but I just can't go on with being tortured and on the drug  so as I look at it I may as well be off and healing since I still have to taper the Valium. My motto as always is one day at a time. 

[[...]]

Hey guys,

 

So I got the okay from my psychiatrist to do my daily micro taper my OWN way .

 

I have a few questions from those who have been doing this.  I am using ml LD:99 ml water and debuting 3 mls per day ( 3,6,9 etc. ) to reduce 1 mg in 33 days.

 

My daily dosage is 32 mg diazepam ( 10mg morning, 10 mg afternoon, 12 mg night) currently and I am still not feeling good ( fatigue , nausea , depression) from some big cuts I did from 40 mg back in July and August , so I am going to start slow, with my nightly dose.  My questions are:

 

When you are micro tapering , when do you start to feel the effects of the cuts?  I do not want to crash again- I'm still suffering from some mistakes I've made at the beginning of this journey some months ago ( kindling?).  Do you " hold" anywhere along the way or just keep pulling?

 

I am using 10 mg pills and 2 mg pills at night, and that is the dose I am starting to reduce first.If I cut the 2 mg pill in half its not exactly in half - I'm wondering if I'm better off using 200 mls of solution and pulling from that instead of using 2 mg pills  broken in half unevenly so I get a more exact measurement ?

 

Is it a good idea to switch to tapering from a different dosage ( morning or afternoon ) the next month or does one just keep micro tapering the entire night dose to get rid of it? Afternoons are my most difficult times - I'm just so wiped out and nauseous that I am reluctant to reduce that afternoon dose, and in fact am wondering if I should add the two mg that I normally take at night along with the 10 mg and add it on to my afternoon dose and deduct it from my nightly dose because I feel so " withdrawly" in the afternoon.

 

  This is a weird process.  I feel like the mad scientist.  Not quite comfortable with the whole thing but I guess I will get used to it - maybe making in larger doses is a better idea ( 495 ml water to 5 mg LD) but  We have well water , not city water - so no chlorine - should I refrigerate my solution?

 

If anyone can give me their ideas on these things , I'd appreciate it. 

Thanks to all of you-

 

(I'm posting this on the diazepam board too)

 

[[Ul...]]

 

You just made this sleep-deprived nut job laugh.  Thanks, Gardener!! Oh, and the doc I saw said he'll give me 2mg of clonazepam a day. He said that's the max he'll give out. He also said that clonazepam, K (all benzos) are NOT addictive. Also told me that I could get off my K in less than a month if I really wanted too. I kindly noticed his bow tie, dress pants, beard, running shoes, and weirdness while I took the script and ran. I was hoping for 3mg/day since I'm not quite down to 2mg yet, but I'll be fine.

 

Keep on rockin' this world girl!!

 

Have sweet dreams tonight.

 

Jeff

 

I'm glad to hear you're near 2 mg K that you got, so the drop shouldn't be too awful. Rather like a cut and hold, right? And then you can stabilize and start to micro-taper again. What a relief!

 

So I assume you're not telling Dr. Clueless you're tapering, right?!? You just need the K because of long-term anxiety made worse by your current life stressors. And then you get yourself off without his help. You don't really need it. You just need the script. Even my doctor who is "helping" me taper says he's just supervising while I make my decisions and set my own pace (snail-like).

 

Hope all goes well with your abrupt bump down. Remember, it's just a bump in the road and you can do it!

 

Thanks, Gardener. No, I definitely didn't tell 'Mr. Bow tie and Running Shoes" that I'm tapering. He's a pretty clueless guy, so I'm lucky I got the script. I'll go from 2.1 down to 2.0 and be O.K. Thank ya, Lord!!! And thank YOU, Miss Gardener!!

 

Jeff

[[...]]

When you are micro tapering , when do you start to feel the effects of the cuts?  I do not want to crash again- I'm still suffering from some mistakes I've made at the beginning of this journey some months ago ( kindling?).  Do you " hold" anywhere along the way or just keep pulling?

 

Ideally never.  If you go into it symptomatic and cutting small enough the symptoms should fade away over time.  Holding should be done as needed.  Basically wake up each day and assess if you should cut or hold, but with the right cut holding should not be needed much.  1mg a month is quite low at your dose.

 

I am using 10 mg pills and 2 mg pills at night, and that is the dose I am starting to reduce first.If I cut the 2 mg pill in half its not exactly in half - I'm wondering if I'm better off using 200 mls of solution and pulling from that instead of using 2 mg pills  broken in half unevenly so I get a more exact measurement ?

 

I like the idea and always try to use whole pills for the very reason you mentioned, but I think as long as you use the other half of the same pill the next day it will be fine using half pills.

 

Is it a good idea to switch to tapering from a different dosage ( morning or afternoon ) the next month or does one just keep micro tapering the entire night dose to get rid of it? Afternoons are my most difficult times - I'm just so wiped out and nauseous that I am reluctant to reduce that afternoon dose, and in fact am wondering if I should add the two mg that I normally take at night along with the 10 mg and add it on to my afternoon dose and deduct it from my nightly dose because I feel so " withdrawly" in the afternoon.

 

I think it is best to keep all doses even and bring them all down together.  In other words, take your cut from the liquid first, then split the liquid evenly over all doses.  From there you can try tweaking doses a bit higher or lower to manage symptoms, but I would not stray too far from even - if you need that dose to avoid interdose withdrawal you will eventually taper your way into symptoms.

 

  This is a weird process.  I feel like the mad scientist.  Not quite comfortable with the whole thing but I guess I will get used to it - maybe making in larger doses is a better idea ( 495 ml water to 5 mg LD) but  We have well water , not city water - so no chlorine - should I refrigerate my solution?

 

If you are making your own alcohol/water solution from pills I would not refrigerate it as cooling a liquid lowers solubility.  Store at room temp.  Making batches is fine, but I would not do too many days simply because of the possibility of bacteria growth, and also we really don't know much about how the benzo potency might change in the liquid over time.

[[...]]

Thanks SG57 -

can you just explain one thing about keeping the doses even?  Do you mean I should alternate each day the dose I pull from?  Or at the end of the month after I've reduced form the nightly dose?  Wasn't sure I understood that. 

[[ga...]]

 

You just made this sleep-deprived nut job laugh.  Thanks, Gardener!! Oh, and the doc I saw said he'll give me 2mg of clonazepam a day. He said that's the max he'll give out. He also said that clonazepam, K (all benzos) are NOT addictive. Also told me that I could get off my K in less than a month if I really wanted too. I kindly noticed his bow tie, dress pants, beard, running shoes, and weirdness while I took the script and ran. I was hoping for 3mg/day since I'm not quite down to 2mg yet, but I'll be fine.

 

Keep on rockin' this world girl!!

 

Have sweet dreams tonight.

 

Jeff

 

I'm glad to hear you're near 2 mg K that you got, so the drop shouldn't be too awful. Rather like a cut and hold, right? And then you can stabilize and start to micro-taper again. What a relief!

 

So I assume you're not telling Dr. Clueless you're tapering, right?!? You just need the K because of long-term anxiety made worse by your current life stressors. And then you get yourself off without his help. You don't really need it. You just need the script. Even my doctor who is "helping" me taper says he's just supervising while I make my decisions and set my own pace (snail-like).

 

Hope all goes well with your abrupt bump down. Remember, it's just a bump in the road and you can do it!

 

Thanks, Gardener. No, I definitely didn't tell 'Mr. Bow tie and Running Shoes" that I'm tapering. He's a pretty clueless guy, so I'm lucky I got the script. I'll go from 2.1 down to 2.0 and be O.K. Thank ya, Lord!!! And thank YOU, Miss Gardener!!

 

Jeff

 

I smile every time I think of you getting that script, Jeff! I know you can do it now that you have Mr. Bow Tie!    Did I ever mention that my own psychiatrist is a locum (contract worker) and has been getting extended 2 months at a time since I started seeing him? He was supposedly absolutely going to be gone and replaced in September. Well, he just extended until April! 

[[...]]

Thanks SG57 -

can you just explain one thing about keeping the doses even?  Do you mean I should alternate each day the dose I pull from?  Or at the end of the month after I've reduced form the nightly dose?  Wasn't sure I understood that.

 

No, don't rotate it.  I'd probably first taper that night dose down to 10mg to get them all even, then try to work it so each dose is the same liquid+dry pill combination.  Three doses can sometimes make the numbers hard to work, but there is usually a way.

[[Ma...]]

Jeff,

 

I am so glad your Drs appt went well and now you don't have to worry anymore! My pdoc also told me that most people on my dose would be off in a month. Luckily, he doesn't care how or if I taper. He told me I know more about tapering than him. He got one thing right. Also did you get the DBT workbook? I'm sure you will do fine going from 2.1mg to 2mg. I am so happy for you!

 

XO Maya 

[[VC...]]

Hello, Micro-tapering peeps.

 

New to this thread, and could use some support.

 

I wonder if reducing 0.0025mg daily is considered about average, fast, or slow?

 

Doing a liquid micro-taper from Xanax. For months I only reduced about 5% every 4 weeks, afraid to go faster due to SXs I didn't understand. Came to the forum last year in acute distress, but still have a very sensitized CNS (possibly kindled from prior 3-4 month taper & reinstatements).

 

I'm up to 10% monthly now. Very depressed. Crying. Not sure it's withdrawal since circumstances took a nosedive in June and I have a lot of stress pressing in on me. Want to make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot by increasing my taper too quickly. I've tapered slowly 17 months now. One benzo group told me I could be off this stuff in 10 months, at 10% monthly reductions, but I'm about 2/3 of the way there.

 

I've had both family members and doctors tell me I'm dragging this taper out for the attention, that nothings' wrong with me, and to just get off the stuff. It's demoralizing. I did increase my taper this past month to about 10-11%. Think I could safely be done in 3 months, except for losing sleep. Either the depression could lift or worsen.

 

I've taken Xanax (alprazolam) for 15 years now, including taper time. As best I can remember. With people having so much trouble coming off benzos after only a couple years use, I'm worried about long term users like myself.  My original prescriber told me to cold turkey the xanax about 18 months ago. He said nobody ever had the problems I'm having. Needless to say, I never went back to him.

 

Thanks for your input,

V

 

 

[[Ul...]]

 

You just made this sleep-deprived nut job laugh.  Thanks, Gardener!! Oh, and the doc I saw said he'll give me 2mg of clonazepam a day. He said that's the max he'll give out. He also said that clonazepam, K (all benzos) are NOT addictive. Also told me that I could get off my K in less than a month if I really wanted too. I kindly noticed his bow tie, dress pants, beard, running shoes, and weirdness while I took the script and ran. I was hoping for 3mg/day since I'm not quite down to 2mg yet, but I'll be fine.

 

Keep on rockin' this world girl!!

 

Have sweet dreams tonight.

 

Jeff

 

I'm glad to hear you're near 2 mg K that you got, so the drop shouldn't be too awful. Rather like a cut and hold, right? And then you can stabilize and start to micro-taper again. What a relief!

 

So I assume you're not telling Dr. Clueless you're tapering, right?!? You just need the K because of long-term anxiety made worse by your current life stressors. And then you get yourself off without his help. You don't really need it. You just need the script. Even my doctor who is "helping" me taper says he's just supervising while I make my decisions and set my own pace (snail-like).

 

Hope all goes well with your abrupt bump down. Remember, it's just a bump in the road and you can do it!

 

Thanks, Gardener. No, I definitely didn't tell 'Mr. Bow tie and Running Shoes" that I'm tapering. He's a pretty clueless guy, so I'm lucky I got the script. I'll go from 2.1 down to 2.0 and be O.K. Thank ya, Lord!!! And thank YOU, Miss Gardener!!

 

Jeff

 

I smile every time I think of you getting that script, Jeff! I know you can do it now that you have Mr. Bow Tie!    Did I ever mention that my own psychiatrist is a locum (contract worker) and has been getting extended 2 months at a time since I started seeing him? He was supposedly absolutely going to be gone and replaced in September. Well, he just extended until April! 

 

Well, all he has to do is keep extending until you're done! I'm pulling for ya, Gardener 

 

Jeff