Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

Hi everyone - Can anyone help me with a math issue ?  I went to my psychiatrist and we agreed to start micro tapering with some liquid.  Starting with my nightly dose which is 12.5 Valium.  So he told me to mix 2 mls liquid Valium with 50 mls water and take 10 mls of that every night for a week along with a 10 mg. pill and a 2 mg. pill.  Then next week to do the same mixture and reduce it to 5 mls a night. He was crabby and in a hurry that day so I couldn't really get to understand how much I am deducting from the 12.5 dose .  It almost seems like I'm adding  more Valium to the dose and besides, it's not a daily micro taper.  Can anyone help me get this?  What I'd like to do is reduce the dose maybe using a 100 ml water / 1ml liquid Diaz., by 3 or 4 mls every day - I was looking at Diaz- pam's schedule and it seems straightforward and easier.  I'd appreciate any help cuz this thing he has me doing isn't making sense to me.

Thank you!!!

Jan

 

Assuming your liquid is 5mg=5ml (1:1)...

 

If you use 2mg/and add 23ml water, you have 25ml with .04mg per ml.

 

So 10ml X .04=.4 mg

Your total dose would be 10+2+.4=12.4mg.

 

5ml X .04=.2mg

total dose 10+2+.2=12.2mg.

You are correct, that is NOT a microtaper, its a C&H using liquid...better than trying to cut tablets, but not optimum.

 

My suggestion:

Mix 5ml/mg liquid V and 495ml water.  That's 500ml liquid and 1ml=.01mg.

Day 1 12mg tablets 50ml (.5mg) liquid

Day 2 12mg tablets 45ml (.45mg) liquid

Day 3 12mg tablets 40ml (.40mg) liquid

Day 4 12mg tablets    35ml (.35mg) liquid

etc.  Just reduce the liquid portion by 5ml (.05mg) each day.

 

[[sh...]]

Thank you for helping me understand SG57 - so if I wanted to go a bit faster how would I do that ?  Or maybe I should just stick to what he said and try it for the two weeks.  I just wanted to make sure I wasn't adding more......

 

SGs. math is correct as usual.  I would suggest following what the doctor says for a week.  Then you could try reducing 1ml/.04mg a day.  Which would be .28mg a week. This would be a little faster than the doctor suggested and you would be doing a daily taper.

 

Stay strong!

Sharkey

[[...]]

Thank you Sharkey!  If I do that , would I be down to 12 mg by the end of the second week? ( I don't know what I will tell the do , he'll be po'd that I didn't do what he said...) but I want to try to find a level of taper that works for me and allows me to function.  Which I am not at right now. 

BTW do you feel good now that you are totally off?  You did slow taper and it worked out good ?  It seems like a lot of people suffer terribly when they jump.  Just wondering.  Not trying to be nosy.  Just trying to figure out a plan for myself that I can reasonably work with to get off this stuff without suffering too much now and then not having a terrible time when I finally get off .  Guess I have plenty of time , given that I'm on so much Valium - gag.

[[an...]]

Thanks all. Just feeling overwhelmed. Appreciate your input so much.

 

Hi Elizabeth,

 

You have been through a lot.  I am sorry you are feeling so bad.  You have many options to consider.  I think a daily liquid  taper is the way to go.  What I do not like about the oil is the fact that you cannot dilute with water.  Even with a 1 mL srynge that has 100 gradations  (each one is 0.01 mL) it will be difficult to measure when you get to the smaller volumes.  Whatever method you choose it is best if you can use larger volumes.  Any error will be magnified when measuring a tiny volume.

Anne

[[El...]]

Thank you Anne.

Ok, so looks like I will go with water/alcohol method. I won't start until 9/28. Have some stuff coming up and don't want to risk feeling any worse then I already do. Anne, are you still willing to help me come up with a tapering schedule? I will be using the 2ml of 80 proof alcohol that Sharky suggested. I take .25mg of Ativan at 8 am and 2pm. I have a 5 mg Valium dose at night(it use to be a .5 of ativan). I attempted to cross over to Valium and had to stop by of tachycardia. I plan on leaving the Valium as is for the time being. I've watched a few videos online so I think I know what I need to purchase, but any specific recommendations would be much appreciated from those who have experience with this. So grateful for everyone's input.

[[sh...]]

Thank you Sharkey!  If I do that , would I be down to 12 mg by the end of the second week? ( I don't know what I will tell the do , he'll be po'd that I didn't do what he said...) but I want to try to find a level of taper that works for me and allows me to function.  Which I am not at right now. 

BTW do you feel good now that you are totally off?  You did slow taper and it worked out good ?  It seems like a lot of people suffer terribly when they jump.  Just wondering.  Not trying to be nosy.  Just trying to figure out a plan for myself that I can reasonably work with to get off this stuff without suffering too much now and then not having a terrible time when I finally get off .  Guess I have plenty of time , given that I'm on so much Valium - gag.

 

If you do as I suggested, you would be down to 12.12mg by the end of the second week.  3 days later you would be at 12mg.

 

I am just over 2 months off of benzos and I am happy about how I feel.  If I'm not under stress, then most of the time I feel fine.  I have had 2 or 3 waves (as they are referred to here) that were pretty bad that I felt off for a few days and had bad depression but they were gone in a few days.  But I've also experienced a large window that lasted about a week and I felt better than I have in a long time.  Other than that, I am still very sensitive to anxiety under stress but I have learned through the tapering process how to manage it an still function almost normally.  If further healing is ahead of me I will be extremely pleased.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

[[an...]]

Thank you Anne.

Ok, so looks like I will go with water/alcohol method. I won't start until 9/28. Have some stuff coming up and don't want to risk feeling any worse then I already do. Anne, are you still willing to help me come up with a tapering schedule? I will be using the 2ml of 80 proof alcohol that Sharky suggested. I take .25mg of Ativan at 8 am and 2pm. I have a 5 mg Valium dose at night(it use to be a .5 of ativan). I attempted to cross over to Valium and had to stop by of tachycardia. I plan on leaving the Valium as is for the time being. I've watched a few videos online so I think I know what I need to purchase, but any specific recommendations would be much appreciated from those who have experience with this. So grateful for everyone's input.

 

Elizabeth,

 

Yes, I will help you set up a schedule when you are ready.  All you really need is a 10 mL oral syringe and a jar with a tight fitting lid. I would also suggest purchasing a 100 mL graduated cylinder.  I use a 100 mL graduated cylinder to measure out my water.  I use a 50 mL graduated cylinder to measure out my daily doses, but you can use the syringe to remove a mL/day. Some people use a 10 mL syringe to measure out the water, but having to draw up 10 mL ten times to get 100 mL is not only unnecessary, but will introduce more error especially if you lose count. You can get the graduated cylinder for about $12.00 on Amazon--definitely worth it. The syringe can be used to measure out the 2 mL of vodka. Once you switch to liquid, it is recommended to stay on your full dose for a week or two before you start tapering.

 

This sounds complicated at first, but it is very easy to do. For example, I use 125 mL of water for a 0.5 mg pill. I then measure out my toss amount,  and divide what is left of the mixture into my three daily doses.

 

We are all here to help when you are ready.

Have a good evening,

Anne

[[sh...]]

Thank you Sharkey!  If I do that , would I be down to 12 mg by the end of the second week? ( I don't know what I will tell the do , he'll be po'd that I didn't do what he said...) but I want to try to find a level of taper that works for me and allows me to function.  Which I am not at right now. 

BTW do you feel good now that you are totally off?  You did slow taper and it worked out good ?  It seems like a lot of people suffer terribly when they jump.  Just wondering.  Not trying to be nosy.  Just trying to figure out a plan for myself that I can reasonably work with to get off this stuff without suffering too much now and then not having a terrible time when I finally get off .  Guess I have plenty of time , given that I'm on so much Valium - gag.

 

If you do as I suggested, you would be down to 12.12mg by the end of the second week.  3 days later you would be at 12mg.

 

I am just over 2 months off of benzos and I am happy about how I feel.  If I'm not under stress, then most of the time I feel fine.  I have had 2 or 3 waves (as they are referred to here) that were pretty bad that I felt off for a few days and had bad depression but they were gone in a few days.  But I've also experienced a large window that lasted about a week and I felt better than I have in a long time.  Other than that, I am still very sensitive to anxiety under stress but I have learned through the tapering process how to manage it an still function almost normally.  If further healing is ahead of me I will be extremely pleased.

 

Stay strong!

Sharkey, that is really encouraging that you are doing so well - it must be the best feeling to know that the benzos are done.  A huge congratulations and I hope you just feel better and better .  These drugs are poison. If I had only known.... But that's what we all say.

Sharkey, is there anyway I can use the mixture that my doctor told me to make ( 2 mls liquid diazepam to 50 mls water ) and reduce by .5 ?  I haven't spoke to to the doctor yet and I don't know what he's going to say about the way I want to titrate ( using 100 mls liquid each day and reducing by

4 or 5 mls.) and I don't want to get him mad by starting to use more of the luquid and then him yelling at me for not following his instructions.  In other words, how do I deduct say the equivalent of 4 mls ( that's what I want to go with ) from a solution made up of 2mg of diazepam to 50 water - the solution I have and will be using this week and then making again for next week ( doc wanted me to do this for two weeks)  What would I draw up on my syringe to deduct the equivalent of 4 mls today , 8mls tomorrow etc.  with the solution he gave me?  I want to move along with this process, not go so slow but I won't be seeing him for another two weeks and don't know if he's going to be agreeable so I don't want to just go ahead and start using 1 ml of liquid every day and then have him blow a gasket.  Does this make sense?  I have a smaller syringe -just don't know the right amounts to use.

I hope this makes sense.  I really appreciate your help.  This whole thing is just beyond overwhelming to me and I am so compromised in every way right now, can't think straight.  If you are able to help me figure out the calculation, I would sure appreciate it..thank you so much. 

Jan

sharkey

 

If you read my original response, I suggested to use the doctors method.  I think it would work fine.  You can always adjust.  Try it out.  It is actually the best recommendation I've seen a doctor make.

[[Be...]]

Djd's doctor should be cloned. 

[[...]]

Okay, yes Sharkey - I see that now .  Thank you.

Jan

[[Sh...]]

Day 13 of micro taper.  .9675mg. From 1mg of K.  Symptoms...slight muscle tension in neck and face.  Insomnia on and off this week.  Sensitive teeth.  Slight increase in anxiety.  Is it normal to feel this at such small decrease?  Just wondering. 

 

Thanks

Shaani

[[Be...]]

Day 13 of micro taper.  .9675mg. From 1mg of K.  Symptoms...slight muscle tension in neck and face.  Insomnia on and off this week.  Sensitive teeth.  Slight increase in anxiety.  Is it normal to feel this at such small decrease?  Just wondering. 

 

Thanks

Shaani

 

Shaani,

Depends on how sensitive you are. If it were me, the answer is YES. So the answer for you is also YES, even if it's not the norm.  have you built in any hold days? That's the advantage of MT: if sxs become too much, hold a few days, then start up again.

Bennie

[[...]]

Day 13 of micro taper.  .9675mg. From 1mg of K.  Symptoms...slight muscle tension in neck and face.  Insomnia on and off this week.  Sensitive teeth.  Slight increase in anxiety.  Is it normal to feel this at such small decrease?  Just wondering. 

 

Thanks

Shaani

 

Can you remind me what your cut rate is?

[[Sh...]]

SG.  .25ml / day is my cut rate.  Original dose 1mg of K /day.  Divided onto 2 doses. 

 

Shaani

[[...]]

SG.  .25ml / day is my cut rate.  Original dose 1mg of K /day.  Divided onto 2 doses. 

 

Shaani

 

Do you put 1mg K into 100ml liquid?  That would be .0025mg a day.  That makes sense as you said you got from 1mg to .9675mg in 13 days.  That would be 7.5% for the first month.  Symptoms should not be allowed to increase so, as Bennie said, hold until you feel ready.  Or if you feel they are acceptable you could try dropping to 5% and keep going.  That would be .15ml a day.  I think it is important to create immediate success and find a rate you can live with that does not increase symptoms, then move up from there.

[[dp...]]

Hey SG.

 

What advice do you have for someone who's around 4mg where I am? Do I need to stay in the 10% a month range continuing down? (Going above that rate even at .02mg/day has started to give me increasing symptoms)... because there will come a point where 10% a month is only .2 to .3mg/month.

 

Any advice or experience if that % basis can get thrown out the window at the lower doses? I have probably asked this 100x, but I can't remember right now. I don't want to take 2 more years tapering 4mg... when I have other addictive meds that I need to taper (and that are accumulating negative effects the longer I stay on), and I also don't want to deepen my Valium addiction.

 

Thank you.

[[...]]

Hey SG.

 

What advice do you have for someone who's around 4mg where I am? Do I need to stay in the 10% a month range continuing down? (Going above that rate even at .02mg/day has started to give me increasing symptoms)... because there will come a point where 10% a month is only .2 to .3mg/month.

 

Any advice or experience if that % basis can get thrown out the window at the lower doses? I have probably asked this 100x, but I can't remember right now. I don't want to take 2 more years tapering 4mg... when I have other addictive meds that I need to taper (and that are accumulating negative effects the longer I stay on), and I also don't want to deepen my Valium addiction.

 

Thank you.

 

Dan,

 

As near as I can see I don't think the "percent approximation" falls apart until much lower dose.  It can mimic what is actually going on quite well until below 1mg V.  It is a helpful and easy-to-use guide.

[[dp...]]

So you're saying.. stick with the 10% rule until you reach about 1mg... where it would otherwise take at least a year to get off of?

 

I think you're right... you're making at least .25-.4mg cuts/month until about 1mg.

 

Thank you for getting back so quick SG.

[[dp...]]

Well, until at least 2mg... at that point it really seems to slow down.

[[...]]

So you're saying.. stick with the 10% rule until you reach about 1mg... where it would otherwise take at least a year to get off of?

 

I think you're right... you're making at least .25-.4mg cuts/month until about 1mg.

 

Thank you for getting back so quick SG.

 

Well, until at least 2mg... at that point it really seems to slow down.

 

It's just a guide.  Ultimately how you feel is what matters.  I think if you find a percentage cut that works for you, following that percentage will be a good approximate guide to keep you on track.  Cut size depends on dose and will always get smaller as dose gets smaller, but it does not get extremely small at the end like the percentage approximation predicts.  It falls apart at the end.  Maybe 1mg is too low.  You are right.  2-3mg might be where it starts to not make sense anymore.

[[dp...]]

Thanks man. Appreciate all of your help. 

[[sh...]]

SG.  .25ml / day is my cut rate.  Original dose 1mg of K /day.  Divided onto 2 doses. 

 

Shaani

 

Do you put 1mg K into 100ml liquid?  That would be .0025mg a day.  That makes sense as you said you got from 1mg to .9675mg in 13 days.  That would be 7.5% for the first month.  Symptoms should not be allowed to increase so, as Bennie said, hold until you feel ready.  Or if you feel they are acceptable you could try dropping to 5% and keep going.  That would be .15ml a day.  I think it is important to create immediate success and find a rate you can live with that does not increase symptoms, then move up from there.

 

Totally agree with this!  :thumbsup:

[[Be...]]

 

I am just over 2 months off of benzos and I am happy about how I feel.  If I'm not under stress, then most of the time I feel fine.  I have had 2 or 3 waves (as they are referred to here) that were pretty bad that I felt off for a few days and had bad depression but they were gone in a few days.  But I've also experienced a large window that lasted about a week and I felt better than I have in a long time.  Other than that, I am still very sensitive to anxiety under stress but I have learned through the tapering process how to manage it an still function almost normally.  If further healing is ahead of me I will be extremely pleased.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Hi Sharkey,

 

I am glad to hear you seem to be improving as you get farther into the post-withdrawal phase.  I am really looking forward to that phase.  So far I seem to be doing pretty well as I near the end of my taper.  My withdrawal symptoms remain tolerable and are certainly not getting any worse.  This is interesting since my percentage daily cuts are increasing significantly and are now at ~4%/day at my 0.003 mg/day taper rate.  It seems that the percentage rule of thumb is breaking down at the end and I am finding that my body can handle a particular daily reduction regardless of the fact that it represents a high and higher percentage cut.  Did you find that you were pretty stable all the way to the end on a constant daily taper rate?

[[Sh...]]

SG.  .25ml / day is my cut rate.  Original dose 1mg of K /day.  Divided onto 2 doses. 

 

Shaani

 

Do you put 1mg K into 100ml liquid?  That would be .0025mg a day.  That makes sense as you said you got from 1mg to .9675mg in 13 days.  That would be 7.5% for the first month.  Symptoms should not be allowed to increase so, as Bennie said, hold until you feel ready.  Or if you feel they are acceptable you could try dropping to 5% and keep going.  That would be .15ml a day.  I think it is important to create immediate success and find a rate you can live with that does not increase symptoms, then move up from there.

 

Totally agree with this!  :thumbsup:

  Ugh...I will hold. I really just wanted to be able to keep cutting. At this rate I will be on this drug for a long time. Preaching to the choir.  It sucks. Thanks for responding guys.  Shaani

[[No...]]

I've been holding off my taper because of a new job and increase in my ssri for help. I was ready to start not too long back but I decided to wait it out last minute. I just need a really good idea again about how much I should reduce a day or every other day, and what solution (milk,water,alcohol) is the best for this taper based on experience. I take .5k in the orning and .5k at night. Should I combine the doses in the beginning of the day in a 100ml graduated cylinder, deduct the the micro amount via the 10ml syringe, and split it with two jars for day and night? And would I need to adapt to the liquid solution before I make deductions? Also, how much should I take out every day with the 10ml syringe? I don't the the % equivalencies.