Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Kg...]]

SG - I hear what you are saying about going slow but for some of us- and unfortunately this is me,  going slower or holding doesn't help me and I can't figure out why.  If I am not feeling well at all and I hold I actually over time feel worse not better. When I slowed down my cut rate to see if that helped, it didn't and again I felt worse vs. feeling better.  For some reason when I am feeling awful if I keep cutting I feel better and actually get into a window and I do not know why this is.  I am not going fast on my taper and I have slowed down as I micro taper but it doesn't explain why some of us no matter how slow we go still have symptoms. If I could be s/x free I wouldn't care how slow I went to get off of this but I never am.  I keep re-reading Parker's post and realize that my s/x are symptoms of my body healing but it doesn't explain to me why I can't get to a rate that is s/x free. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this.  Thanks.

[[Ma...]]

SG,

I completely agree with everything you and Gardner are saying. I have learned so much from everyone and that is how I plan to taper. I am so sorry you were not taught to taper that way and I think it's amazing how much you help others to not make the same mistakes. I hope you are not symptomatic soon! I'm confused, you think you have long term damage that can't be healed?

[[...]]

SG - I hear what you are saying about going slow but for some of us- and unfortunately this is me,  going slower or holding doesn't help me and I can't figure out why.  If I am not feeling well at all and I hold I actually over time feel worse not better. When I slowed down my cut rate to see if that helped, it didn't and again I felt worse vs. feeling better.  For some reason when I am feeling awful if I keep cutting I feel better and actually get into a window and I do not know why this is.  I am not going fast on my taper and I have slowed down as I micro taper but it doesn't explain why some of us no matter how slow we go still have symptoms. If I could be s/x free I wouldn't care how slow I went to get off of this but I never am.  I keep re-reading Parker's post and realize that my s/x are symptoms of my body healing but it doesn't explain to me why I can't get to a rate that is s/x free. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this.  Thanks.

 

Yeah, we certainly don't understand all the ways these drugs can go wrong.  I often hear people say they feel better when they cut after a hold.  Why?  And there are stories like yours where you feel lousy no matter what.  Why doesn't holding help?  I think for most people going slow will work, but I don't get why it is not true for all.  I wonder what would happen if you just held and held for a very long time (not that you would want to try, lol).  At least we know getting off the drug is a sure-fire way to get better.

[[...]]

SG,

I completely agree with everything you and Gardner are saying. I have learned so much from everyone and that is how I plan to taper. I am so sorry you were not taught to taper that way and I think it's amazing how much you help others to not make the same mistakes. I hope you are not symptomatic soon! I'm confused, you think you have long term damage that can't be healed?

 

Yes, I've developed a passion for tapering...too late for me, but still it has been very therapeutic.  I just wish it would end.  It is almost like there are two types of symptoms: shorter more reversible (maybe this is GABA receptor shortage?) and longer term damage that may be to do with glutamate receptors.  At least this is what I got out of those great research posts by Perseverance.  This is why I think there is a time limit when we get too far ahead of healing: the longer term damage takes a while to set up and occur so if we cut too big there is a period of time to correct it, but it does eventually expire.

 

No I don't think I am permanently damaged.  Everybody heals.  And I've improved enough to know I'll get there, probably within 6-12 more months.  Everything keep improving...every few months there is a tick up.

[[Kg...]]

SG ironically I did do a very long hold last summer because I wanted to feel better for my daughter's wedding so I did around a 4-5 week hold as I recall and it didn't work for me at all  - I had symptoms the entire time and when I finally cut again I felt better - go figure. 

 

And I do agree with you I think we all do heal but each of us does it differently.  I feel better now on my lower dose than I did last year on the higher dose.  I do agree that we 'pay the piper' if we go too fast and suffer off the drug or we can slow taper and hopefully heal on the way down and have fewer symptoms when we are off.  Anyway you look at this we wouldn't be here on BB if we were fine and could taper easily and quickly off of these drugs. 

[[ga...]]

SG - I hear what you are saying about going slow but for some of us- and unfortunately this is me,  going slower or holding doesn't help me and I can't figure out why.  If I am not feeling well at all and I hold I actually over time feel worse not better. When I slowed down my cut rate to see if that helped, it didn't and again I felt worse vs. feeling better.  For some reason when I am feeling awful if I keep cutting I feel better and actually get into a window and I do not know why this is.  I am not going fast on my taper and I have slowed down as I micro taper but it doesn't explain why some of us no matter how slow we go still have symptoms. If I could be s/x free I wouldn't care how slow I went to get off of this but I never am.  I keep re-reading Parker's post and realize that my s/x are symptoms of my body healing but it doesn't explain to me why I can't get to a rate that is s/x free. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this.  Thanks.

 

Yeah, we certainly don't understand all the ways these drugs can go wrong.  I often hear people say they feel better when they cut after a hold.  Why?  And there are stories like yours where you feel lousy no matter what.  Why doesn't holding help?  I think for most people going slow will work, but I don't get why it is not true for all.  I wonder what would happen if you just held and held for a very long time (not that you would want to try, lol).  At least we know getting off the drug is a sure-fire way to get better.

 

I, myself, hit a brick wall from tapering too fast and then held for a month and saw only the slightest improvement (from nonfunctioning to functioning in benzo hell, and then descending into all kinds of phobias). That's when I decided to partially cross to Librium. So, now I am sometimes very depressed (Librium) and sometimes anxious (Xanax). But I do have windows and the waves are not tidal waves.

 

My conclusion from my long, useless hold was that Xanax was just a nasty drug for me. Lots of people taper straight off of  it, but I couldn't. I wonder if sometimes it's just that the drug itself is something you can't metabolize properly. I have a list of meds I can't metabolize normally because I lack a certain liver enzyme. Valium, Prozac, all tricyclics, most narcotics, and others.

 

I'm glad I'm getting some windows with the Librium. I hear the depression from it lessens over time. I see my therapist this Friday. She is my trauma therapist but is also a licensed substance abuse consoler. I'm very interested in sharing what she thinks about what's been going on and how to proceed since this is obviously a much longer process than either of us thought when we made our initial coping plan.

[[ga...]]

When I was coming down from 15mg (CH), I generally was pretty well recovered after about 10 days, and I was holding for 14.  So if I were you, I'd probably hold for a few more days before re-starting a  taper.

 

How are you feeling these days, builder?

[[ga...]]

SG,

I completely agree with everything you and Gardner are saying. I have learned so much from everyone and that is how I plan to taper. I am so sorry you were not taught to taper that way and I think it's amazing how much you help others to not make the same mistakes. I hope you are not symptomatic soon! I'm confused, you think you have long term damage that can't be healed?

 

Yes, I've developed a passion for tapering...too late for me, but still it has been very therapeutic.  I just wish it would end.  It is almost like there are two types of symptoms: shorter more reversible (maybe this is GABA receptor shortage?) and longer term damage that may be to do with glutamate receptors.  At least this is what I got out of those great research posts by Perseverance.  This is why I think there is a time limit when we get too far ahead of healing: the longer term damage takes a while to set up and occur so if we cut too big there is a period of time to correct it, but it does eventually expire.

 

No I don't think I am permanently damaged.  Everybody heals.  And I've improved enough to know I'll get there, probably within 6-12 more months.  Everything keep improving...every few months there is a tick up.

 

I'm really glad to hear you are still seeing progress.

[[Ho...]]

SG,

 

"i know it is a hard concept but I'd work hard on forgetting about being free and replacing that with "feeling good" as the goal.  Time won't matter as much if you feel well and freedom will still come without all that much time added."

 

This is a great way to put it!!! Thank you.

 

HM

[[ga...]]

SG,

I completely agree with everything you and Gardner are saying. I have learned so much from everyone and that is how I plan to taper. I am so sorry you were not taught to taper that way and I think it's amazing how much you help others to not make the same mistakes. I hope you are not symptomatic soon! I'm confused, you think you have long term damage that can't be healed?

 

Yes, I've developed a passion for tapering...too late for me, but still it has been very therapeutic.  I just wish it would end.  It is almost like there are two types of symptoms: shorter more reversible (maybe this is GABA receptor shortage?) and longer term damage that may be to do with glutamate receptors.  At least this is what I got out of those great research posts by Perseverance. This is why I think there is a time limit when we get too far ahead of healing: the longer term damage takes a while to set up and occur so if we cut too big there is a period of time to correct it, but it does eventually expire.

 

No I don't think I am permanently damaged.  Everybody heals.  And I've improved enough to know I'll get there, probably within 6-12 more months.  Everything keep improving...every few months there is a tick up.

 

Could you link those those posts for me? I have no recollection of them.

[[sh...]]

Can someone explain to me what stabilizing really even means? I'm afraid with all of the up and down dosing this month that I won't ever even stabilize. Every day I am filled with terror even though I'm up to 1 mg.

 

When I took my .5 at noon I again felt worse, my cognition went WAY down I felt more in a fog after taking the pill than before. It almost seemed like too high of a dose, but I don't know if that's even possible.

 

I keep thinking how I'm not going to be able to take care of my daughter for up to years while tapering from this poison, and then even after you're done tapering I've read that you still struggle with symptoms for another year or so? This seems unbearable. I don't know how I am going to make it, especially if I never stabilize or have some type of paradoxical reaction to the drug now.

 

The term stabilize is kind of subjective.  To me it means feeling better and ready to taper, but not necessarily 100%.  The way to do it is to hold steady and dose on time...and just wait.  Let everything even out and calm down.  The fact that your doses make you feel worse bothers me.  I don't know what to make of that as dosing should bring relief, if anything.  But I think it will settle.

 

Try not to get caught up in the nightmares.  Your life can be normal.  You DO have control of the situation and if you taper sensibly you can feel good and step off done - no, or little past-taper time.  The nightmares are from people who were impatient and careless (like me), or got forced off by an ignorant doctor.

 

This is great advice! 

[[sh...]]

Miss I guess I disagree with most people here.  From your signature you have only been on a benzo since June.  If you took another type of benzo before than you need to count this - but I am going to assume you didn't.  So essentially you were on a low dose of . 5 K, didn't take it every day, according to your own signature, switched to xanax, switched back to klonopin, updosed to 1 mg and now feel awful.  This is not a surprise to me - since what you did gave your body different signals and these drugs are powerful ones - so  going up, down, switching doses etc is not something that gives you any stability.  Now you feel worse when you take the drug.  If it were me I would try and get off of this drug as quickly as possible - it isn't making you feel better so why not try to get off as fast as you safely can.  I would try a faster micro taper or a cut and hold to get down .5mg so you are at .5mg rather quickly which is the dose you took for the longest time. Then you may have to go slower but I wouldn't want to see you spending a year to get off of a drug you only took for a couple of months.

 

I think what you also need to do is to get some more tools in your tool box so to speak as you taper.  For many it is going to counseling with a good therapist who can work with you on alternatives to dealing with the original issue that put you on the klonopin to begin with.  Also meditation, exercise, deep breathing exercises all help. 

 

The one thing I would not do is panic about how you are feeling.  That unfortunately is 'normal' for those of us sensitive to these drugs.

 

I agree with Kgirl about getting to .5g. fairly quickly.  If you have only been on this stuff for a few months you should be fairly safe from the long term stuff.  I went from 1mg to .5mg after over 10 years of use (it was very hard) and I'm ok so far.

 

Also great advice about using other methods to control symptoms and not panicking.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[Kg...]]

Gardener what you said is very interesting.  I added in Valium 2mg and I have no idea if that is helping me or not but I don't want to stop it until I get off of the klonopin.  I know Ellen did her taper off of klonopin using the valium which is why I decided to add it in after failing to taper klonopin multiple times including a liquid taper.  I just could not tolerate the s/x which became unbearable.  When my s/x from this  taper became unbearable I switched to a micro taper using the scale, since liquid didn't work for me.  I think we all do what we have to do to get off but it is the hardest thing I have ever done. Some days I just want to throw in the towel, but I realize that I will stick this taper out and finally be off these drugs - however long that takes.  One day at a time has become my motto but I could not do it w/o the help and support I get from everyone on BB  - it helps to know I am not crazy for having all these s/x and that I am not alone. My virtual friends have been there, done that and I know will pull me up when I am at my lowest.  We will all get through this together.

[[Ul...]]

Hi, Sharkey!!!

 

 

OK, I be quiet now. (Maybe.)

 

Hi Gardener

 

Sharkey didn't retire!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[[ga...]]

Hi, Sharkey!!!

 

 

OK, I be quiet now. (Maybe.)

 

Hi Gardener

 

Sharkey didn't retire!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Thank heavens!

[[sh...]]

Hi, Sharkey!!!

 

 

OK, I be quiet now. (Maybe.)

 

Hi Gardener

 

Sharkey didn't retire!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No sir!!!!  Just been super busy between work and the new baby and my 2 year old.  I do read most posts but I usually only post about tapering for new posters. Or questions specifically addressed to me.  So if you need something just ask!

 

Love y'all!

sharkey 

[[ga...]]

Gardener what you said is very interesting. I added in Valium 2mg and I have no idea if that is helping me or not but I don't want to stop it until I get off of the klonopin.  I know Ellen did her taper off of klonopin using the valium which is why I decided to add it in after failing to taper klonopin multiple times including a liquid taper.  I just could not tolerate the s/x which became unbearable.  When my s/x from this  taper became unbearable I switched to a micro taper using the scale, since liquid didn't work for me.  I think we all do what we have to do to get off but it is the hardest thing I have ever done. Some days I just want to throw in the towel, but I realize that I will stick this taper out and finally be off these drugs - however long that takes.  One day at a time has become my motto but I could not do it w/o the help and support I get from everyone on BB  - it helps to know I am not crazy for having all these s/x and that I am not alone. My virtual friends have been there, done that and I know will pull me up when I am at my lowest.  We will all get through this together.

 

Do you mean about the Xanax just being a bad med for me?

 

I applaud you for being able to cut pills! That drove me nuts during my trazdone taper!

 

Yes, we will all get through this together. One day at a time. One foot in front of the other. Knowing we're healing and that often healing hurts. But we will do it!

[[ga...]]

 

No sir!!!!  Just been super busy between work and the new baby and my 2 year old.  I do read most posts but I usually only post about tapering for new posters. Or questions specifically addressed to me.  So if you need something just ask!

 

Love y'all!

sharkey

 

I have a question for the Shark. What do you think about SG's theory that the best way to taper is with the fewest symptoms possible so that at the end you are just about completely healed?

 

And another, is that new baby sleeping through the night yet??

[[Ma...]]

SG,

I completely agree with everything you and Gardner are saying. I have learned so much from everyone and that is how I plan to taper. I am so sorry you were not taught to taper that way and I think it's amazing how much you help others to not make the same mistakes. I hope you are not symptomatic soon! I'm confused, you think you have long term damage that can't be healed?

 

Yes, I've developed a passion for tapering...too late for me, but still it has been very therapeutic.  I just wish it would end.  It is almost like there are two types of symptoms: shorter more reversible (maybe this is GABA receptor shortage?) and longer term damage that may be to do with glutamate receptors.  At least this is what I got out of those great research posts by Perseverance.  This is why I think there is a time limit when we get too far ahead of healing: the longer term damage takes a while to set up and occur so if we cut too big there is a period of time to correct it, but it does eventually expire.

 

No I don't think I am permanently damaged.  Everybody heals.  And I've improved enough to know I'll get there, probably within 6-12 more months.  Everything keep improving...every few months there is a tick up.

I'm glad it has been therapeutic for you! Your help has been very therapeutic for me 

I wish it would end for you! I worry that I will have long term damage because I took such a high dose for so long. My entire adult life. I am willing to go as slow as needed. I hope that doesn't happen to me.

 

I'm glad you don't think that! I think we will all heal. I'm glad you are seeing improvements and wish you lots of healing!

[[Ul...]]

Butterfly,

That's so great that you meditate! So helpful! I'm sorry you are having a hard time and I hope you feel better! I will let others with more knowledge help you.

 

XO Maya

 

Maya you too!!! Thankfully I started in college in yoga classes but never took it serious until last few years. It has saved my marriage and it is getting  me through a lot of migraines! Wish I had used it instead of k, but gld that I know better now. 

Butterfly,

Even better you do yoga, as well. When I tapered from 6mg to 4mg I took a yoga class at least twice a week and it was wonderful. I really need to start again. I'm glad it has helped you so much! I wish I had just done DBT earlier and then done EMDR therapy. I didn't need klonopin. I'm glad we both know better now!

XO Maya

 

Maya, was it you who gave a url where someone could get some kind of workbook for DBT? Also, if it WAS you, do you think that the workbook would be beneficial for me? I'm having a mess of a time due to some other issues (probably a result of the multi-decade use of K). Can't sleep, am miserably hot all night and most of the day (andropause??), nervous, etc.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

[[sh...]]

 

No sir!!!!  Just been super busy between work and the new baby and my 2 year old.  I do read most posts but I usually only post about tapering for new posters. Or questions specifically addressed to me.  So if you need something just ask!

 

Love y'all!

sharkey

 

I have a question for the Shark. What do you think about SG's theory that the best way to taper is with the fewest symptoms possible so that at the end you are just about completely healed?

 

And another, is that new baby sleeping through the night yet??

 

I think SG knows more about tapering than most on the forum and his advice has always been great and it inspired me to help others. 

 

I think the speed of a taper is dependent on a lot of factors and it is different for everyone.  I do believe that certain people have a very bad reaction to benzos causing long term damage but I think this is not common.  I generally suggest slow taper except when I think the longer exposure to the drug will cause more damage than a fast taper.  Prime example is people only on the meds for a short time.  So if you read my posts you will see that I recommend different things to different people based on the information they provide.  Most important is the type of benzo, length of use and amount of daily dose. 

 

So I do agree with SG but sometimes I believe that fast taper even if it is uncomfortable may be a better option.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[Ul...]]

Hi, Sharkey!!!

 

 

OK, I be quiet now. (Maybe.)

 

Hi Gardener

 

Sharkey didn't retire!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No sir!!!!  Just been super busy between work and the new baby and my 2 year old.  I do read most posts but I usually only post about tapering for new posters. Or questions specifically addressed to me.  So if you need something just ask!

 

Love y'all!

sharkey

 

Rock on, Shark-meister!!  Geaux Tigers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jeff

[[sh...]]

Oh and the baby is still waking up at least twice a night so that means daddy is up too . It is tiring but it is worth every minute!!

[[...]]

 

No sir!!!!  Just been super busy between work and the new baby and my 2 year old.  I do read most posts but I usually only post about tapering for new posters. Or questions specifically addressed to me.  So if you need something just ask!

 

Love y'all!

sharkey

 

I have a question for the Shark. What do you think about SG's theory that the best way to taper is with the fewest symptoms possible so that at the end you are just about completely healed?

 

And another, is that new baby sleeping through the night yet??

 

Hi Gardener

 

That's how I did my taper and it worked out very well for me. It did take a long time, especially the last couple of mgs. I was able to continue working full time, didn't feel all that bad and arrived at 0 in the best physical condition I have been in in a long time. The only real downside was the length of my taper and the effort it took to continually make adjustments in order to keep symptoms minimized. I do believe this slow, minimal symptom method to be the most physiological way to do it. I also feel that this method minimizes the risk of PAWS. IMO, we will almost all eventually heal however we get off the benzos. The various methods used are probably more related to personal preference, psychologic and logistics than basic biology.

 

Take care and one day you will be fine however you choose to taper.

 

Bart

[[...]]

Is it ever safe?  Sure.  Is is the best thing for your CNS and will it be as comfortable?  I don't think so.  I think tapering is about shortages and the less short we can be the better off we are.  I think we can tolerate a certain amount of shortage before we even feel symptoms and it gets more and more intense from there.  It almost seems like at some point there is a tipping point where longer term damage occurs and this damage takes even longer to heal, adding time to the process.

 

SG, I think what you're saying is that if you taper took fast, you just add more suffering onto the end after the taper is over, right? So, the gentler the taper, the fewer symptoms post-taper? I've gotten that impression from reading here and there, but have decided I'm not doing any more reading here and there on Benzo Buddies until I am fully recovered. (And nobody should be holding their breath!) I'm often uncomfortable at my 10% taper, but it's not horrible, just scary because it always reminds me of the time I hit the wall. I want to function and have a real life again, so I certainly don't want to go faster. In fact, I sometimes think about slowing down a bit to maybe 8%. There's so much stuff in my life I need to work on that this taper is keeping me from accomplishing. On the other hand, putting this poison into me multiple times a day is so discouraging and I want it to be over.

 

Yes, exactly.  It is a false economy to think that taking on symptoms and pushing to zero gets you anything other than being done with the tapering part.  The symptoms will not end there.  In fact, from my own experience I'm utterly convinced pushing it added a lot more time.

 

I think the fastest way to health is a taper that keeps symptoms almost totally at bay.  That way when you reach zero you really are done, and the ride will have been more pleasant to boot.  Ironic that the fastest path is the slower taper, but it seems to be true.  I'm 31 months free and still symptomatic.  This is not GABA upregulation still going on.  This is long-term damage from pushing it.

 

If your current 10% taper is not resulting in a satisfactory life my advice is to try a spin at 8% for a few months and see how you like it.  Heck, try 5%.  It really is not that much time lost and you may decide you like it so much you will stay there.

 

I know it is a hard concept but I'd work hard on forgetting about being free and replacing that with "feeling good" as the goal.  Time won't matter as much if you feel well and freedom will still come without all that much time added.

 

I couldn't agree more with this and it was my personal experience. Throw away the calendar and work to minimize symptoms on your way down.

 

Bart