Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

Dialectical behavioral therapy is used to treat many things now like substance abuse, eating disorders etc. it has been very helpful for my anxiety and PTSD symptoms. It combines CBT, dialectical thinking, and mindfulness. I will go into more on gardeners blog later or if anyone else is interested. IMO It really teaces skills that would be helpful to anyone. It would definitely be helpful for coping with tapering off benzos. I hope everyone has helpful coping skills for when things get tough!

 

XO Maya

 

I agree with Maya. So glad that I got my meditation practice better before getting to this part of tapering!!!

 

Hugs!!!

 

Thanks, Maya! This sounds very cool.  Especially if you explain it in little, easy-to-understand pieces!

Gardener,

I would be happy to! It is very easy to explain and understand. I will come back over to your blog again soon. I have so many handouts on DBT that I wish I could just send anyone who was interested. IMHO DBT can be helpful to anyone, especially if they are going through a benzo taper. I love how you are always willing to try new things. Maybe your therapist might know about DBT or if not CBT and mindfulness. I am no longer seeing a DBT therapist, but my therapist now does know about it. She knows more about CBT which a component about DBT.

 

XO Maya 

[[mi...]]

It's your taper and you can do whatever you want.  We will still support you.  But there is no way I would ever suggest someone begin that high when they do not yet know what rate they can handle.  It is much better to creep up feeling good than to crash and have to fix it.  The acute withdrawal you experienced was just a small taste of what these drugs can dish out.  And it can be long term.  If you go about it properly your life can be pretty normal.  You can do this with a scale and filing pills, but a better (and preferred) way is to liquify the K.

 

I will go with your suggestion and take it slow. My brain is foggy so I will still have to figure out how I am going to do this properly when I can barely understand some of the posts lol. How can I liquify my K, and extract the right amount? And after the 10% the first month, then is it okay to go faster, or do I stick with 10% reduction per month the whole time? Also how do you measure .003 in liquid? Sorry for all the questions. 

 

Not rushing into this will be time well spent.  Liquifying frees you from the limitations of the scale...it is cheaper, more accurate, and more reliable.  All you need is a 1ml and 10ml syringe and as many jars as you have doses in a day.  When I say "10% a month" that is just a the rate.  You can test that rate for as little as two weeks to get an good idea of whether to adjust up or down.

 

If I'm cutting 10% a month, how much liquid do I toss out a day? I'm sorry this is all scrambled up in my brain right now it mind as well be in French lol.

[[...]]

Not rushing into this will be time well spent.  Liquifying frees you from the limitations of the scale...it is cheaper, more accurate, and more reliable.  All you need is a 1ml and 10ml syringe and as many jars as you have doses in a day.  When I say "10% a month" that is just a the rate.  You can test that rate for as little as two weeks to get an good idea of whether to adjust up or down.

 

If I'm cutting 10% a month, how much liquid do I toss out a day? I'm sorry this is all scrambled up in my brain right now it mind as well be in French lol.

 

You are just not familiar and it is coming quickly.  I can tell by the questions you are asking.

 

Call a month 30 days.  To get 10% that would be 10%/30=.33% a day.  You can use monthly percentages to guide your taper and give you an idea about how much to cut.  Once you pick a cut you can stay with it and adjust from there.

[[mi...]]

How do I measure .33 In a syringe?

[[Ma...]]

Butterfly,

That's so great that you meditate! So helpful! I'm sorry you are having a hard time and I hope you feel better! I will let others with more knowledge help you.

 

XO Maya

[[...]]

How do I measure .33 In a syringe?

 

Yes!  .33% of 1mg is .0033mg.  If you put 1mg into 100ml of liquid each ml would contain .010mg so .0033mg would be .33ml.  You'd use a 1ml syringe to do this.

[[mi...]]

Maybe I'll try to look this over again when my head isn't spinning. I think my mental level is down to that of a 5 year old today. I don't even know how to turn the klonopin into liquid let alone figure out how to dose myself. Right now it seems so overwhelming that I could cry.

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Maybe I'll try to look this over again when my head isn't spinning. I think my mental level is down to that of a 5 year old today. I don't even know how to turn the klonopin into liquid let alone figure out how to dose myself. Right now it seems so overwhelming that I could cry.

 

You've come a long way already.  Don't worry about how.  People here already know, so just ask when the time comes.

[[Ma...]]

Missb,

Don't feel bad. It took me awhile to understand how to micro taper. My cog fog was so bad. Everyone hear knows what it's like and is understanding! I'm sure when I switch to liquid I won't get it right away. You are obviously already picking up a lot. Try not to be overwhelmed. Maybe it is good to take a break. I also wrote to you on the kk thread. I hope you feel better!

 

XO Maya

[[sh...]]

Hi Sharkey and thank you so much for your help.  I really mean it, cannot thank you enough for taking the time to explain this to me - I'm brain dead right now.  I do have a couple of questions .

I forgot to add that I take the extra 2.5 ( pill form) at 9pm.

My question is ( I am so math challenged) is what is 100 mls solution equal to?

100ml =  10mg V if you make the solution like I explained

One 10 mg pill?  And alcohol has been an issue for me in the past - Thinking maybe dissolving it in milk would be better....I have heard that you can use whole milk. I don't mind making up solutions everyday.

Milk has worked for people.  If you use milk make sure it is homogenized and full fat milk.  you would add the pill to 100ml milk

So I would need to be drinking 3 batches of this solution each day ( in addition to the 2.5 mg pill that I take at night) ?

Yes if you have the time change the 3 batches to liquid.  Then you can reduce a little from each batch at a time

And do this for two weeks before starting to titrate ? 

Yes

Is that to acclimate my body to the liquid solution ?

Yes

I know I need to hold for a while right now anyway because I'm in such bad shape from the psychiatrist's way of titrating which is a whole mg at a time and then I totally crash and burn and hence I'm in bed now. 

And do you recommend reducing one dose at a time or a little out of each dose?

Yes

Like should I get rid of the night dose totally first ?

How are you sleeping? You really only need valium 2 or 3 times a day.  So you could elimate the 2.5mg first

The psych has no idea what he is doing.  As far as I'm concerned he's just someone who will prescribe for me. He's nice but doesn't know how hard this process is.    And if I use milk ,  would I dissolve the ten mg pill in 3 mls of whole milk and add the rest 97 mls water?

10mg pill dissolved in 100ml of full fat milk

 

I might have some more questions .  Thank you soo so much.  And Moodle too, for putting me in touch with you.  It is so wonderful to have people who are living it, or have lived it - as opposed to the doctors who have no idea, despite all their medical knowledge. 

Can this be stored in a plastic container or does it have to be glass?

Thank you, and bless you!

 

See responses in BOLD

 

Sharkey, I got a pm from Djd.

Confused about liquefying ALL doses.

 

I told her that you replace a part of your dose with liquid so that's where the questions come form, I think.

 

To resume and make sure it's all together and correct :

 

So, you're saying ... drop 10 mgr pill in 100 ml of full fat milk .

Stay on it for ten days or so to get used to the process.

Then cut by 0.5 ml a day,which  would be 0.05 mgr?

 

Yes,  this would be 1mg every 20 days.  which would be 3% every 20 days.  I think this rate is fine since the daily dose is 32.5mg.  At this rate you would probably need to slow down once you reach a lower dose.

 

I'd say maybe it's handy to " attack " one dose at a time and not liquefy all doses for now, since she is in a bad way. Make it simple ?

 

 

I guess what I didn't get is the 0.5 drop which seems large, but I didn't see you said 10 mgr pills.

I got confused with the 0.5 ml drops.

 

Can anyone good at math confirm this please?

I try to help out but am limited in the brain capacity at the moment. ( and number challenged in general I guess )

 

Thank you anyone for responding. Djd is holding for now but is anxious about this process, which I can understand if you're going to try something new and don't understand it or have no plan in writing.

 

 

If you do one dose at a time, you run into the question of what to do when you finish that dose.  If you are dosing 3 times a day, then I suggest to keep doing that but it is valium which should be fine 2 times a day.

 

I would suggest to do start by liquifying the 2.5mg you take at night.  so once you make the solution, 25ml would equal the 2.5mg you are currently taking.  Then you can start reducing at a rate of .5ml a day until that dose is gone.  After that, I would ask others to advise.  Either liquify 1 dose and reduce down to 0, or do some other combination to reduce all the doses at the same time?

 

Please try not to look too far ahead, once you get the process down and some practice you can always come back with some confidence and work out the other details.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

PS - I have been sober from alcohol for 1.5 years and still used the alcohol method.  The amount of alcohol you use is very small and should not effect you.  Another option is propylene glycol which you can use just to dissolve the pill instead of liquor.

[[Mo...]]

Thanks Sharkey.

I think Djd decided to use vodka then .

Will keep stuff posted if she can't find her way back here.

[[ga...]]

Hello, I am currently trying to stabilize on 1mg of Klonopin after being up and down all month without realizing I was in withdrawal. I thought I was having some prolonged bad reaction to some Prozac that I only took for five days. I have been on Klonopin since June 8th. I was prescribed .5 mg, and I dosed sporadically the whole time, sometimes less, sometimes more, sometimes none for several days. I'm hoping I'll even be able to stabilize at 1mg because I feel weird after I take the Klonopin now. Almost more foggy, and my balance gets worse when I take it?

 

I am in such a brain fog and the whole idea of daily micro tapering is overwhelming, but has been suggested to me as the best way to get off of this nasty drug. I would like to get off of it as soon as possible, but also as safely as possible. If and when I am able to stabilize, I would like to start my daily micro taper and was hoping someone could help me with a plan. I would like to cut 10% every 7-10 days if that seems like a reasonable amount?

 

Any input is greatly appreciated. I am so grateful to have found this forum.

 

Yeah, get on a steady consistent dose, that is the first step.  You have not been on long so you may be able to go faster, but it is best not to assume that.  10% every 7-10 days is pretty aggressive to start.  I usually suggest starting below 10% a month.  In your case 10% a month might be a good starting point since you don't know how you will react.  If you were to break that into daily cuts that would be .003mg per day, which is what I recommend.  You could try that for a few weeks and adjust from there.

 

Agree!!  :thumbsup:

[[mi...]]

Can someone explain to me what stabilizing really even means? I'm afraid with all of the up and down dosing this month that I won't ever even stabilize. Every day I am filled with terror even though I'm up to 1 mg.

 

When I took my .5 at noon I again felt worse, my cognition went WAY down I felt more in a fog after taking the pill than before. It almost seemed like too high of a dose, but I don't know if that's even possible.

 

I keep thinking how I'm not going to be able to take care of my daughter for up to years while tapering from this poison, and then even after you're done tapering I've read that you still struggle with symptoms for another year or so? This seems unbearable. I don't know how I am going to make it, especially if I never stabilize or have some type of paradoxical reaction to the drug now.

[[...]]

Can someone explain to me what stabilizing really even means? I'm afraid with all of the up and down dosing this month that I won't ever even stabilize. Every day I am filled with terror even though I'm up to 1 mg.

 

When I took my .5 at noon I again felt worse, my cognition went WAY down I felt more in a fog after taking the pill than before. It almost seemed like too high of a dose, but I don't know if that's even possible.

 

I keep thinking how I'm not going to be able to take care of my daughter for up to years while tapering from this poison, and then even after you're done tapering I've read that you still struggle with symptoms for another year or so? This seems unbearable. I don't know how I am going to make it, especially if I never stabilize or have some type of paradoxical reaction to the drug now.

 

The term stabilize is kind of subjective.  To me it means feeling better and ready to taper, but not necessarily 100%.  The way to do it is to hold steady and dose on time...and just wait.  Let everything even out and calm down.  The fact that your doses make you feel worse bothers me.  I don't know what to make of that as dosing should bring relief, if anything.  But I think it will settle.

 

Try not to get caught up in the nightmares.  Your life can be normal.  You DO have control of the situation and if you taper sensibly you can feel good and step off done - no, or little past-taper time.  The nightmares are from people who were impatient and careless (like me), or got forced off by an ignorant doctor.

[[nx...]]

I'm glad I found this thread I've been asking advice on starting my taper right now I'm taking 10-15mgs of Valiumdaily ...I read the Ashton manual and found it a little confusing and I definitely never want to put my CNS in shock again so I really think this is the way for me.There is a lot of added stress in the whole situation. And if I'm right I can go awhile w just cutting? One question I have is there any benefit w splitting into am pm doses? Thanks a lot and all you guys history and progress give me hope!

[[bu...]]

I'm glad I found this thread I've been asking advice on starting my taper right now I'm taking 10-15mgs of Valiumdaily ...I read the Ashton manual and found it a little confusing and I definitely never want to put my CNS in shock again so I really think this is the way for me.There is a lot of added stress in the whole situation. And if I'm right I can go awhile w just cutting? One question I have is there any benefit w splitting into am pm doses? Thanks a lot and all you guys history and progress give me hope!

  The duration of effect is 12-24 hours.  Many folks do just fine with a single dose, but some do better with 2 doses.

 

If you have any doubt, why not just take 2 doses.  I took 2 doses throughout most of my time on V, a small dose in the AM, and a bigger dose at bedtime.

[[Kg...]]

Miss I guess I disagree with most people here.  From your signature you have only been on a benzo since June.  If you took another type of benzo before than you need to count this - but I am going to assume you didn't.  So essentially you were on a low dose of . 5 K, didn't take it every day, according to your own signature, switched to xanax, switched back to klonopin, updosed to 1 mg and now feel awful.  This is not a surprise to me - since what you did gave your body different signals and these drugs are powerful ones - so  going up, down, switching doses etc is not something that gives you any stability.  Now you feel worse when you take the drug.  If it were me I would try and get off of this drug as quickly as possible - it isn't making you feel better so why not try to get off as fast as you safely can.  I would try a faster micro taper or a cut and hold to get down .5mg so you are at .5mg rather quickly which is the dose you took for the longest time. Then you may have to go slower but I wouldn't want to see you spending a year to get off of a drug you only took for a couple of months.

 

I think what you also need to do is to get some more tools in your tool box so to speak as you taper.  For many it is going to counseling with a good therapist who can work with you on alternatives to dealing with the original issue that put you on the klonopin to begin with.  Also meditation, exercise, deep breathing exercises all help. 

 

The one thing I would not do is panic about how you are feeling.  That unfortunately is 'normal' for those of us sensitive to these drugs.

[[Ho...]]

SG,

Is it ever safe to jump from a very low dose K when MT-ing (like at .025g)? , and not wait until you are all the way down to .001g to jump? I am at .167g K now and I think it might be beneficial to just stop altogether once i get down to a tiny crumb of a dose.... Seems silly to take such a minute amount at that point and just get rid of it already and let your body begin to adjust to not having it in the system at that point and get on with life? Thoughts?

Thanks!

HopefulMom

[[...]]

SG,

Is it ever safe to jump from a very low dose K when MT-ing (like at .025g)? , and not wait until you are all the way down to .001g to jump? I am at .167g K now and I think it might be beneficial to just stop altogether once i get down to a tiny crumb of a dose.... Seems silly to take such a minute amount at that point and just get rid of it already and let your body begin to adjust to not having it in the system at that point and get on with life? Thoughts?

Thanks!

HopefulMom

 

Is it ever safe?  Sure.  Is is the best thing for your CNS and will it be as comfortable?  I don't think so.  I think tapering is about shortages and the less short we can be the better off we are.  I think we can tolerate a certain amount of shortage before we even feel symptoms and it gets more and more intense from there.  It almost seems like at some point there is a tipping point where longer term damage occurs and this damage takes even longer to heal, adding time to the process.

[[nx...]]

Thank you #builder OK so since my first dose was last Wednesday after cold turkey for 17 days and I started feeling normal by fri...how long should I wait for my first cyr???I'm holding at 15 once a day

[[bu...]]

When I was coming down from 15mg (CH), I generally was pretty well recovered after about 10 days, and I was holding for 14.  So if I were you, I'd probably hold for a few more days before re-starting a  taper.

[[bu...]]

Butterfly,

That's so great that you meditate! So helpful! I'm sorry you are having a hard time and I hope you feel better! I will let others with more knowledge help you.

 

XO Maya

 

Maya you too!!! Thankfully I started in college in yoga classes but never took it serious until last few years. It has saved my marriage and it is getting  me through a lot of migraines! Wish I had used it instead of k, but gld that I know better now. 

[[ga...]]

SG,

Is it ever safe to jump from a very low dose K when MT-ing (like at .025g)? , and not wait until you are all the way down to .001g to jump? I am at .167g K now and I think it might be beneficial to just stop altogether once i get down to a tiny crumb of a dose.... Seems silly to take such a minute amount at that point and just get rid of it already and let your body begin to adjust to not having it in the system at that point and get on with life? Thoughts?

Thanks!

HopefulMom

 

Is it ever safe?  Sure.  Is is the best thing for your CNS and will it be as comfortable?  I don't think so.  I think tapering is about shortages and the less short we can be the better off we are.  I think we can tolerate a certain amount of shortage before we even feel symptoms and it gets more and more intense from there.  It almost seems like at some point there is a tipping point where longer term damage occurs and this damage takes even longer to heal, adding time to the process.

 

SG, I think what you're saying is that if you taper took fast, you just add more suffering onto the end after the taper is over, right? So, the gentler the taper, the fewer symptoms post-taper? I've gotten that impression from reading here and there, but have decided I'm not doing any more reading here and there on Benzo Buddies until I am fully recovered. (And nobody should be holding their breath!) I'm often uncomfortable at my 10% taper, but it's not horrible, just scary because it always reminds me of the time I hit the wall. I want to function and have a real life again, so I certainly don't want to go faster. In fact, I sometimes think about slowing down a bit to maybe 8%. There's so much stuff in my life I need to work on that this taper is keeping me from accomplishing. On the other hand, putting this poison into me multiple times a day is so discouraging and I want it to be over.

[[...]]

Is it ever safe?  Sure.  Is is the best thing for your CNS and will it be as comfortable?  I don't think so.  I think tapering is about shortages and the less short we can be the better off we are.  I think we can tolerate a certain amount of shortage before we even feel symptoms and it gets more and more intense from there.  It almost seems like at some point there is a tipping point where longer term damage occurs and this damage takes even longer to heal, adding time to the process.

 

SG, I think what you're saying is that if you taper took fast, you just add more suffering onto the end after the taper is over, right? So, the gentler the taper, the fewer symptoms post-taper? I've gotten that impression from reading here and there, but have decided I'm not doing any more reading here and there on Benzo Buddies until I am fully recovered. (And nobody should be holding their breath!) I'm often uncomfortable at my 10% taper, but it's not horrible, just scary because it always reminds me of the time I hit the wall. I want to function and have a real life again, so I certainly don't want to go faster. In fact, I sometimes think about slowing down a bit to maybe 8%. There's so much stuff in my life I need to work on that this taper is keeping me from accomplishing. On the other hand, putting this poison into me multiple times a day is so discouraging and I want it to be over.

 

Yes, exactly.  It is a false economy to think that taking on symptoms and pushing to zero gets you anything other than being done with the tapering part.  The symptoms will not end there.  In fact, from my own experience I'm utterly convinced pushing it added a lot more time.

 

I think the fastest way to health is a taper that keeps symptoms almost totally at bay.  That way when you reach zero you really are done, and the ride will have been more pleasant to boot.  Ironic that the fastest path is the slower taper, but it seems to be true.  I'm 31 months free and still symptomatic.  This is not GABA upregulation still going on.  This is long-term damage from pushing it.

 

If your current 10% taper is not resulting in a satisfactory life my advice is to try a spin at 8% for a few months and see how you like it.  Heck, try 5%.  It really is not that much time lost and you may decide you like it so much you will stay there.

 

I know it is a hard concept but I'd work hard on forgetting about being free and replacing that with "feeling good" as the goal.  Time won't matter as much if you feel well and freedom will still come without all that much time added.

[[Ma...]]

Butterfly,

That's so great that you meditate! So helpful! I'm sorry you are having a hard time and I hope you feel better! I will let others with more knowledge help you.

 

XO Maya

 

Maya you too!!! Thankfully I started in college in yoga classes but never took it serious until last few years. It has saved my marriage and it is getting  me through a lot of migraines! Wish I had used it instead of k, but gld that I know better now. 

Butterfly,

Even better you do yoga, as well. When I tapered from 6mg to 4mg I took a yoga class at least twice a week and it was wonderful. I really need to start again. I'm glad it has helped you so much! I wish I had just done DBT earlier and then done EMDR therapy. I didn't need klonopin. I'm glad we both know better now!

XO Maya