The Dizziness Group: For those who are floating, boating, falling or flying

[[Fi...]]

Lapis,

I had VNG test.    Nothing found

 

F4M

[[La...]]

Hi F4M,

Well, that's good news! That rules out certain vestibular things. Are you planning to do any further testing at this point?

[[La...]]

Hey Dizzy Buddies,

How's everyone doing? It's been pretty quiet around here lately, which could be a good thing (I hope!) or a bad thing (Nooooo!). I've been about the same -- still rockin' and rollin' on the high seas.

 

I just came across an article that I wanted to share, since it has some interesting tidbits on balance. It's called "Aerospace, Physiology, Spatial Orientation", and it's focused on what happens to pilots when they're flying an aircraft and they become disoriented. Here's the introduction, which includes detailed info about the three things that need to be in sync for balance to be normal. It's the first time I've seen a breakdown by percentages with regards to those three things and their roles in balance. I'll highlight the key parts.

 

 

 

"Aviation-associated spatial disorientation, as described by Benson, occurs when “the pilot fails to sense correctly the position, motion, or attitude of his aircraft or of himself within the fixed coordinate system provided by the surface of the Earth and the gravitational vertical.” In other words, spatial orientation is the natural ability to maintain body orientation and/or posture in relation to one's environment while at rest and during motion. Humans are naturally designed to maintain orientation while on the ground in a two-dimensional environment.  Aviation incorporates a three-dimensional environment and can lead to sensory conflicts, making orientation difficult or even impossible to maintain. Spatial disorientation is a phenomenon that is well known to aviators, but it remains unclearly defined and continues to be one of largest causes of aviation mishaps."

 

"Spatial disorientation is achieved through three major sensory sources: visual, vestibular, and proprioceptive. To achieve appropriate orientation the body relies on accurate perception and cognitive integration of all three systems. If visual, vestibular, and proprioceptive stimuli vary in magnitude, direction and frequency the resulting effect can be spatial disorientation."

 

"The human eye provides visual and spatial orientation, which is responsible for providing about 80% of the sensory inputs needed to maintain orientation. The vestibular system within the inner ear contributes 15%. Proprioceptive sensory inputs from receptors located in the skin, muscle, tendons, and joints account for 5% of the sensory information used to establish orientation.[1] Complex coordination between these sensory inputs is then translated and interpreted by the brain.[2] Misinterpretation or inaccuracy of these three sources of information can lead to “sensory mismatch,” resulting in a variety of visual or vestibular illusions."

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK518976/#article-31887.s1

 

 

So, based on the above info, it seems extremely important to ensure that people get their vision checked regularly, since it apparently accounts for 80% of balance. That surprised me. Thankfully, I just had mine checked, and all is well on that front. Now, about that vestibular system......

[[Ir...]]

The big question is, could benzdiazaphine wd and PWS cause similar entrainment??.    Also why do the circuits get stuck in this state?

 

 

We know that Benzodiazaphines do disrupt the phasic firing of neurons in a neural circuit, but I’m not sure if it could entrain networks to fire together, or make it more likely they entrain.    The hippocampus is densely populated with GABAaRs, but not sure about then entorhinal complex (EC).  The hippocampus has something to do with this, but they did not explain it fully.

 

Here are some additional references that I’m reading up on to further understand what exactly is going on.

 

 

Thanks, dm.  Of note, though, is that IrishMonkey has never taken benzos.  One or two others here have also reported that their rocky boat began during their SSRI tapers.  There appears to be more recognition/acceptance in general of this symptom resulting from SSRI w/d.

 

I see.  Yes I ran into the “SSRI wd and vestibular issues” idea in several of the papers I have read.

 

What papers were these? Can you link them?

 

I’m going on 3 years now since coming off the SSRI. Ruined my life.

 

Btw I had my vHIT test again. It came back again with a slight abnormality in my right ear, but function is within normal parameters. I’m “well compensated”. It isn’t enough to cause me issues. apparently.

 

I’ve been diagnosed with PPPD (Persistent Postural Perceptual Dizziness), which seems to fit my symptoms very well - better laying down, less symptoms in the morning etc. This can be caused by a Vestibular event or a panic attack. Treatment, regardless of structural damage or purely anxiety, is CBT, Vestibular rehabilitation exercises and..... SSRI’s. I asked why SSRI’s? Because Serotonin and norepinephrine play some role in the brain in modulating Vestibular signals, but the research isn’t quite there yet, but they find SNRI’s cure people of this..... what a coincidence, eh? I stated I came off an SSRI just before this beat took over, and I was told, it may have well triggered it....

[[La...]]

Oh my goodness, IrishMonkey! SSRIs? Yikes! Dizziness is a possible side effect of those meds. It just boggles the mind. However, CBT and vestibular rehabilitation both sound like prudent, good things to try.

[[go...]]

I wonder has anyone had success with any travel sickness treatments. I'm getting very sick right now so I have to go to a lot of appointments and the journeys are unbearable. I can't walk or talk for 30 minutes after, is there anything I can do that may help?

[[La...]]

Which treatments are you referring to, gooner? Are you talking about medications?

[[go...]]

ANything, home remedies or medicines.

[[La...]]

Well, you have to be a bit careful. Meds can have side effects. Antihistamines, anticholinergics and benzodiazepines are all considered "vestibular suppressants", meaning they can all negatively affect the vestibular system. Have a look at the first few pages of this thread if you want to get a bit more info about benzo dizziness.

 

Have you had yours checked by anyone? Are you sure it's from benzos? Are you taking anything else?

 

[[...]]

I've been prone to travel sickness since I was a very young 'un, Gooner.  I'm not sure which mode of travel you're referring to, and duration, but have you tried "sea bands"?

 

 

You can't walk/talk after traveling?  Due to feeling queasy and/or throwing up?  Or ...?  Also, do you have this rocky boatiness constantly or only when traveling?

[[go...]]

No no other meds. I do have constant dizziness, which is pretty unpleasant but when Im in a car it becomes unbearable. I basically never go anywhere because of it, i have trouble breathing and my insides feel like they are trying to jump out of my stomach.

 

No i'll give them a try for sure.

[[La...]]

Hi gooner,

When did this type of dizziness and nausea start? Have you had it checked out? Any testing?

[[go...]]

Had infrequently since I jumped, but it became permanent around month4/5. Seen a neurologist who doesn't seem fussed, thinking about an ENT but not sure if it will be worth it.

[[La...]]

Well, it's usually ENTs who do the vestibular testing, so it may well be worth it. There are types of dizziness that have available treatments, e.g. Benign Paroxysmal Positional Vertigo (BPPV). Some physiotherapists specialize in vestibular issues, so that's another option. We've had people on this thread who have BPPV, which is a completely different thing than benzo dizziness, so that's why I ask. BPPV has a very good and effective treatment.

[[go...]]

cool thanks, and would that apply to travel sickness as well. I have hyperthyroid, would that impact dizziness at all?

[[La...]]

Well, the thing is that there's a lot of crossover in symptoms. If you only get dizzy and nauseous when you travel, then it might be something different than BPPV, or benzo dizziness, or high/low blood pressure, or Meniere's Disease or any of the other possible causes of dizziness. Someone would have to discuss with you your particular symptoms and other health issues (e.g. hyperthyroid) and figure out what's going on. You might need to get a blood test to see if there's anything that's high or low too.

 

Bear in mind that dizziness is one of the most common reasons that people go to the doctor, and it can be caused by many different things.

[[La...]]

Hey gooner,

Have you tried ginger for the nausea? Or mint? I still think it's best to figure out if there's anything going on other than benzo issues, but for symptomatic relief, ginger and mint might be of some use, e.g. as a tea.

[[Ko...]]

Hi Dizzy Buddies,

 

Happy Labor Day!  I don’t spend much time on Benzo Buddies anymore, but like to come back every month to report on my symptoms.  I’m now at 58 weeks out. I am still suffering from boatiness although sometimes the boatiness becomes trampoline walking. In any case still off balance 24/7.

As reported by some the seriousness of the symptoms varies from day to day. I feel I have improved some, but ever so slowly.  Now I can sit and not feel like I need to rock. That’s an improvement. I do not feel it when I am lying down unless I move to turn over.  I don’t feel it when I am driving or riding in a car.  Walking is the problem.  I am beginning to feel this may stay with me forever.

 

Another symptom I still have is burning skin mostly on my shins, but sometimes around my neck. This symptom has improved a lot. Some days it is completely gone, but it always comes back. I keep it under control with pain meds and using the Quell device.

 

I wanted to ask any of you if you have heard of Brain Stem Stimulation.  My doctor suggested I talk with a neurosurgeon to see if this procedure would work for me for my balance issue.  They implant

Electrodes in the brain stem and hook them up to a pace maker like device. This procedure has helped people with tremors and balance issues.  This is the first time a doctor has suggested something that might fix our balance problem. I’m going to investigate this and get back to you.

 

Wishing you all the best,

 

Korbe

[[La...]]

Hi Korbe,

It's great to hear from you! Thanks for dropping in to say hello. I just wanted to check in to see if you are 58 weeks or 58 months out. You said "weeks", but I think your signature says something different. In any case, I'm really glad to hear that you've had some changes and improvements. That's a good sign, and hey, we'll take any positive we can get, right?!

 

I was talking to a friend last night, and she's quite positive that the benzo symptoms will pass. It was good to hear that, even though it's very hard to believe it most of the time. She has spoken with Baylissa on many occasions, so I know that Baylissa's experience is what helps her keep that positive outlook. I just thought I'd pass that along, since you said you wonder whether this feeling might stay with you forever.

 

On the question of brain stem stimulation, I think he's referring to something that people get for Parkinson's Disease. I do know someone who had that surgery and definitely improved as a result. However, I'm not at all familiar with its use in balance disorders. Please do let us know what you find out.

 

Take good care, and please stay in touch, Korbe!

 

[[La...]]

Hi Dizzy Buds,

I'm just posting a recent study about dizziness which shows how many different iterations of dizziness there are. It's just a reminder to get things checked out if you're not quite sure whether it's the benzo or something else. Dizziness is a very common symptom, and it can be caused by a number of things -- benzos, of course, but so many other things as well.

 

Here's the study:

 

2018 Aug 30. doi: 10.1007/s00115-018-0598-x. [Epub ahead of print]

 

Neuro-otology: at the borders of ear and brain

 

[Article in German]

 

Zwergal A1,2, Kirsch V3,4, Gerb J3,4, Dlugaiczyk J4, Becker-Bense S4, Dieterich M3,4.

 

Author information

 

1

    Neurologische Klinik und Poliklinik, Universitätsklinikum Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München, Campus Großhadern, Marchioninistr. 15, 81377, München, Deutschland. andreas.zwergal@med.uni-muenchen.de.

2

    Deutsches Schwindel- und Gleichgewichtszentrum, Universitätsklinikum Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München, Campus Großhadern, München, Deutschland. andreas.zwergal@med.uni-muenchen.de.

3

    Neurologische Klinik und Poliklinik, Universitätsklinikum Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München, Campus Großhadern, Marchioninistr. 15, 81377, München, Deutschland.

4

    Deutsches Schwindel- und Gleichgewichtszentrum, Universitätsklinikum Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München, Campus Großhadern, München, Deutschland.

 

Abstract

 

Vertigo and dizziness are frequent chief complaints in clinical practice. Symptoms may originate from otological, neurological, medical and psychiatric etiologies, which poses an interdisciplinary challenge. Systematic analysis of case history and clinical examination generally allow classification into peripheral-, central- or non-vestibular disorders. The most important criteria for differentiation are the timeline, quality of symptoms, modulating factors and accompanying symptoms. As concerns the clinical examination, the following tests are relevant: head impulse test, test for spontaneous nystagmus, positional nystagmus, central ocular motor signs and the Romberg test. However, neuro-otological disorders with combined peripheral and central vestibular pathology do exist. Occlusion of the anterior inferior cerebellar artery results in ischemia of the labyrinth and cerebellum and therefore causes acute vestibular syndrome and unilateral hearing loss. Repetitive attacks of vertigo or dizziness which are accompanied by ear symptoms and headaches may be due to an overlap syndrome of Menière's disease and vestibular migraine. In this case patients often have to be treated with a dual prophylactic medication to control symptoms. In case of chronic dizziness and instability of gait a subsample of patients may suffer from CANVAS, which is a combination of bilateral vestibulopathy, a cerebellar syndrome and polyneuropathy. Chronic dizziness with signs of peripheral and central vestibular dysfunction can also originate from tumors of the cerebellopontine angle with compression of central structures. In conclusion, the diagnostic algorithm in the workup of patients with vertigo and dizziness should always include tests for peripheral and central vestibular and ocular motor function.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30167723

[[Ko...]]

Lapis,

 

You’re right, I am 58 months out. I’ll be sure to let you know what I find out about Brain Stem Stimulation.  I know everyone says we are supposed to get better, but Im not sure that is true.

Unfortunately, there are no studies to back that up.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Korbe

[[La...]]

Yes, studies on this are hard to come by. For now, I'm counting on stories from BB and elsewhere. It's the best we have to go on. Anyway, I'll look forward to hearing what you find out, Korbe.

 

Take good care!

[[go...]]

Do you know the thing hypnic jerk when you're sleeping. I get that when Im awake, it feels like I'm falling for a few seconds. Its very scary, is it a dizziness issue?

[[La...]]

Great question, gooner! I know what you're talking about, and I get them, but I don't relate them to dizziness, since I think they're fairly common among non-dizzy people as well. I just read this article on the topic, and it makes good sense. Interestingly, they suggest the muscular activity could be an automatic reaction to the sensation of falling as you're drifting off to sleep. However, that's what happens to me throughout the day, as I feel like I am, indeed, falling with this damn dizziness!

 

 

The inside story on why it sometimes feels like you’re falling as you fall asleep

Have you ever been jolted awake by the sensation of falling, just as you were drifting off to sleep? If so, you’re not weird; you’ve got plenty of company. These involuntary muscle twitches in the arms, legs, or entire body are called hypnic JerksSudden jerking motions of the legs or whole body occurring at the moment of falling asleep.

Click to learn more(or sleep starts), and they’re very common. Up to 70 percent of people experience them occasionally—but no one knows exactly what causes them.

 

Naturally, there are some theories. One is that they’re a result of the natural downshifting of the nervous system that occurs as you’re falling asleep: As your breathing and heart rate slow down and your body temperature drops, your muscle tone shifts, and these twitches occur during this transition. Another theory suggests that as you’re drifting off to sleep, your brain misinterprets the relaxing of your muscles as a sign that you’re actually falling and signals your muscles to tense up, in order to protect you.

 

More often than not, hypnic jerks are nothing to worry about. If one wakes you up, simply roll over and go back to sleep. But keep in mind: a high caffeine intake, strenuous evening activities, emotional stress, or sleep deprivation may increase the frequency and intensity of hypnic jerks. If you suspect that one of these factors may be worsening your nighttime muscle twitches, try cutting back on caffeine, using relaxation techniques to help you decompress, or practicing better sleep hygiene. And if the jerks themselves—or your anxiety about having them—prevent you from getting enough sleep, talk to your doctor.

 

https://sleep.org/articles/hypnic-jerks/

[[pr...]]

Have you ever been jolted awake by the sensation of falling, just as you were drifting off to sleep? If so, you’re not weird; you’ve got plenty of company. These involuntary muscle twitches in the arms, legs, or entire body are called hypnic JerksSudden jerking motions of the legs or whole body occurring at the moment of falling asleep.

Click to learn more(or sleep starts), and they’re very common. Up to 70 percent of people experience them occasionally—but no one knows exactly what causes them.

 

 

i've had this falling sensation just as i was falling asleep and also upon awakening from a very short sleep/dream and always after 2am... never before and not after that hour either. i have a pattern of falling asleep around 2am only for a very short time like even 15 minutes and have a little dream -- and i awake to that sensation of falling. i also tend to get very chilly and cold during that time but if i awake at around 3-3:30am i get extremely warm and have to throw off one of the blankets. there is something very strong and fragile in that 2-3am sleep time.