The Dizziness Group: For those who are floating, boating, falling or flying

[[cs...]]

Hi Lapis, i hope this information below gets us thinking in bit of a new direction. Perhaps a direction that can be therapeutic

 

Best,

Dm123

 

 

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From the hormone article that you posted:

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5992375/pdf/fneur-09-00362.pdf

 

Quote

 

 

Regarding the second theory, where MdDS is described as a neuroplasticity disorder (3), it might be hypothesized that the hormonal receptors activated by gonadal hormones may also affect the hippocampal and entorhinal cortex interneurons. This suggests that these projections could influence firing patterns within the entorhinal cortex–hippocampal circuit, resulting in symptom changes for MdDS patients. However, more research is needed to evaluate the actual effect of estrogen on MdDS patho- physiology. Additionally, we recognize that for the MT group the question (combining menses and ovulation) was expressed vaguely and a more accurate evaluation should be performed.

 

End quote

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(biomusicology)

Entrainment generically refers to synchronization

 

Relative to  neural circuits ,much of proper physiological function depends on the neurons in the circuit firing out of phase from one another (oscillations).  This is a healthy circuit. Also healthy brain function requires that certain circuits are firing out of phase relative to each other as well.    This is something I have not presented in laymans thread.    The article below theorizes that once the circuits are entrained (synchronized), its very difficult to get them to properly go out of phase again. Entrained circuits would cause symptoms if the circuits mentioned below were involved.

 

  The entrainment “method”  is described below ( something that occurs outside of consciousness, like the wobbling during  a boat voyage). 

 

The big question is can Benzodiazaphine withdrawal cause a similar process (global synchronization of various neural circuits)  to occur???  Or, to be even more precise, could Benzodiazaphine post withdrawal cause the nervous system to be far more prone and susceptible to periodic synchronization that is very easily triggered??

 

 

 

Transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) is very crude, but as seen below can be very effective in some cases.  I think because its so crude, that explains why some got worse after the treatment. The crude nature of the therapy was perhaps borne out in the results.  Regardless of the results, it all came down to weather or not the TMS synchronized or desychronized the circuits.  With desynchronization there was symptom relief.  Also of note was the involvement of the VOR circuit I presented earlier.

 

The hippocampus, which plays a very large role in the Benzodiazaphine model, appears to be a very important part to the theory outlined below.  As the article states below, it’s a gateway.  The hippocampus is one of the most densely populated GABAaR regions of the brain, and is one of the most plastic regions of the brain. It’s very susceptible to morphological changes during Benzodiazaphine use and this region of the brain is  a major part of the thesis behind the Benzodiazaphine model and PWS pathology. 

 

The exact role that the hippocampus plays in theory below is not perfectly clear to me, but it plays a critical role in the delayed onset nature of MdDS.    Still more questions that need to be answered……

 

 

The entorhinal cortex–hippocampal circuit alluded to above, is referenced below in more detail. EC stands for entorhinal cortex.

 

Here is the full article.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4409476/pdf/nihms651815.pdf

 

Quote

 

 

Fortunately, there has been recent growth in scientific interest in understanding the biological basis of and in treating MdDS. Recent studies using functional neuroimaging have shown increased glucose metabolism in the left entorhinal cortex and amygdala in the setting of decreased prefrontal and temporal cortex metabolism in subjects with persistent MdDS. The entorhinal cortex is a key player in processing and gating spatial information to be stored in the hippocampus and is a major driver of brain oscillations. A limbic focus may also be key to spontaneous MdDS-like symptoms occurring in individuals with a history of anxiety or chronic stress. Treatment with repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation over the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex can decrease the rocking dizziness of MdDS, with successful responses associated with decreases in the coherence between brain networks with nodes in the parietal and occipital lobes.

 

A new theory of MdDS is proposed as pathology secondary to entrainment of intrinsic brain networks driven by oscillatory motion exposure coupled with an inability to subsequently desynchronize the activity of these nodes. Future treatment strategies may be directed toward unyoking these networks.

 

End quote

 

 

Quote

 

Hypermetabolism in the left entorhinal cortex (EC) and amygdala was found in the MdDS subjects only. Hypometabolism was predominantly found in the left prefrontal and temporal cortex, along with the right amygdala.5 These findings did not correlate with measurements of depression or anxiety. In light of the extensive neocortical connections of the EC, functional connectivity measurements were made between the EC and other cortical structures. MdDS subjects showed increased connectivity between the EC and sensory processing areas located in the parietal and occipital lobes (V1, V5, superior parietal lobule), whereas connectivity with the prefrontal/premotor cortex was reduced (frontal eye field, middle frontal gyrus). MdDS subjects also exhibited reduced connectivity between homologous structures in the prefrontal cortex.5

 

Navigation in a virtual-reality environment when moving in a hexagonal grid will activate the medial EC in humans.19 Baseline EC activity can be tuned externally, both increasing and decreasing in a graded manner depending on the periodic input.20

 

Notably, EC neurons play an essential role in keeping the hippocampus active during sleep, when the rest of the neocortex has shut down, giving it an important role in the process of memory consolidation during sleep.21 It is postulated that this role may be relevant to why MdDS symptoms frequently do not start immediately after the travel exposure has ended but rather start the following morning after a night of sleep.

 

A role for the hippocampus in MdDS was previously postulated, and this neuroimaging finding pointed to the gatekeeper of spatial information entering the hippocampus as being potentially relevant to MdDS pathology.6

 

End quote

 

 

 

 

Quote

The degree of coherence decreased between eight pairs of ICs in the responders, whereas it increased in the subjects who had worsened. In each of these eight pairs, one of the IC nodes was located in a sensory-processing area in the occipital or parietal lobes in addition to one node in the prefrontal cortex.

 

 

Worsening symptoms correlated with an increase in global synchronization of brain activity, while improvement of symptoms was associated with a decrease in synchronization of brain networks.25 Further support for the phenomenon of “unyoking” related to symptom improvement was seen by the disappearance of vertical nystagmus induced during head roll with a specific vestibular-ocular reflex (VOR) uncoupling procedure introduced by Dai et al.26 The theory behind this procedure is that periodic motion exposure couples VOR in different planes, which can be explicitly uncoupled with a head-rocking maneuver during optokinetic stimulation.

 

These findings suggested that MdDS maybe a disorder of over-synchronization of brain networks caused by entrainment to the background low-amplitude–oscillating environments typical of the triggers of MdDS. In an enlightening presentation on the process of brain entrainment, Thut and Gross explained the process of how external periodic forces can entrain intrinsic brain networks driving out-of-phase networks to oscillate in phase.27

 

A requirement of efficient entrainers is that they exist outside of perception, since cognitive interference can desynchronize the process of entrainment.

 

It is relevant, therefore, that triggers of MdDS are typically those involving low-amplitude oscillatory exposure, such as voyages on cruises or airplanes, in which the motion stimulation is usually outside of conscience awareness.7, 15

 

MdDS is proposed as a condition of abnormally high resting- state functional connectivity in sensory-processing areas where persistent symptoms are due to the inability to desynchronize brain networks that have become yoked together.

 

End quote

 

 

 

[[...]]

Hi Lapis, i hope this information below gets us thinking in bit of a new direction. Perhaps a direction that can be therapeutic

 

Best,

Dm123

 

Hey dm, any chance you can summarize the gist of this in just a couple of short sentences in plain kindergarten English?

[[La...]]

Great post, abcd! Thanks for your insights and suggestions on searching. I do hope people will do a bit of hunting, as needed.

 

And thanks so much for the hug! Much appreciated. Thankfully, there were no fire alarms or major emergencies today, unlike the rest of the week. Time for bed soon..... 

 

Which reminds me ... we set off for our walk this morning and after about 5 mins outside I suddenly remembered that ... wait for it ... ready? ... I'd left a pot of rice simmering on the stove!!!

Naturally, you were the first person I thought of!  Went rushing back, all good.

Hope you have a good restful sleep.

 

Oh noooooo! No more burned rice! Glad it was okay. 

[[Ir...]]

How do people cope with this stuff?!  I may have had it this whole time but was too distracted by my other symptoms to notice it as much.  But, now it is very profound and scary.  I don’t know how to cope!!!  Between the Floaty Boaty and Dp/Dr.  My world is disappearing.

 

 

2yrs since forced CT off Klonopin. 

 

Hi F4Me,

 

I was going to ask the same of this group, but did not want to offend anyone.  How does one cope with constant disequilibrium or even unpredictable sporadic episodes of lengthy dizziness? Can one drive a car?  I can see how this would be challenging with forward and lateral acceleration.  Etc......

 

Actually many find that have these sets of symptoms (rocking and swaying) get relief of it whilst in motion like a car. I can drive all day everyday and it’s when I feel my best. It’s when I step out of the car is when shit hits he fan. I could be at a 1/2 on the symptom scale, but after a journey over 2 hours - I can be up to 6/7. Apparently this mechanism is due to the different functions of the saccule and utricle within the otolith organs. One of these sense horizontal and the other vertical. This would explain why I often get less rocking/relief sometimes when I lay down.

 

Hi Irish, thanks for explaining what’s going on with you.  So the system apparently has trouble acclimating to standstill once you get out of the car. How long does it take the 6/7 to dissipate once its “agitated “?

 

Often it can last the rest of the day, then when I lay down for sleeping it tends to revert from the one otolith section to the other (saccule and utricle) so I assume it disengages one and engages the other. It states on Wikipedia that “The macula of utricle is a thickening in the wall of the utricle where the epithelium contains vestibular hair cells that allows a person to perceive changes in longitudinal acceleration as well as effects of gravity.”

 

The real important part is this: “The inertia of the otolithic membranes is especially important in detecting linear acceleration. Suppose you are sitting in a car at a stoplight and then begin to move. The otolithic membrane of the macula utriculi briefly lags behind the rest of the tissues, bends the stereocilia backward, and stimulates the cells. When you stop at the next light, the macula stops but the otolithic membrane keeps going for a moment, bending the stereocilia forward. The hair cells convert this pattern of stimulation to nerve signals, and the brain is thus advised of changes in your linear velocity.[5] This signal to the vestibular nerve (which takes it to the brainstem) does not adapt with time. The effect of this is that, for example, an individual lying down to sleep will continue to detect that they are lying down hours later when they awaken”.

 

This is interesting because... I have heard many say that when they get relief while in motion, if they stop at a traffic light, they feel as if they’re still moving. I don’t get this often, but sometimes do. It depends on how long I’ve been in motion before abruptly stopping. I’ve observed that when I wake, I get minimal rocking/swaying or complete relief for the first few hours after waking - this is consistent with this delay they are talking about.

[[cs...]]

How do people cope with this stuff?!  I may have had it this whole time but was too distracted by my other symptoms to notice it as much.  But, now it is very profound and scary.  I don’t know how to cope!!!  Between the Floaty Boaty and Dp/Dr.  My world is disappearing.

 

 

2yrs since forced CT off Klonopin. 

 

Hi F4Me,

 

I was going to ask the same of this group, but did not want to offend anyone.  How does one cope with constant disequilibrium or even unpredictable sporadic episodes of lengthy dizziness? Can one drive a car?  I can see how this would be challenging with forward and lateral acceleration.  Etc......

 

Actually many find that have these sets of symptoms (rocking and swaying) get relief of it whilst in motion like a car. I can drive all day everyday and it’s when I feel my best. It’s when I step out of the car is when shit hits he fan. I could be at a 1/2 on the symptom scale, but after a journey over 2 hours - I can be up to 6/7. Apparently this mechanism is due to the different functions of the saccule and utricle within the otolith organs. One of these sense horizontal and the other vertical. This would explain why I often get less rocking/relief sometimes when I lay down.

 

Hi Irish, thanks for explaining what’s going on with you.  So the system apparently has trouble acclimating to standstill once you get out of the car. How long does it take the 6/7 to dissipate once its “agitated “?

 

Often it can last the rest of the day, then when I lay down for sleeping it tends to revert from the one otolith section to the other (saccule and utricle) so I assume it disengages one and engages the other. It states on Wikipedia that “The macula of utricle is a thickening in the wall of the utricle where the epithelium contains vestibular hair cells that allows a person to perceive changes in longitudinal acceleration as well as effects of gravity.”

 

The real important part is this: “The inertia of the otolithic membranes is especially important in detecting linear acceleration. Suppose you are sitting in a car at a stoplight and then begin to move. The otolithic membrane of the macula utriculi briefly lags behind the rest of the tissues, bends the stereocilia backward, and stimulates the cells. When you stop at the next light, the macula stops but the otolithic membrane keeps going for a moment, bending the stereocilia forward. The hair cells convert this pattern of stimulation to nerve signals, and the brain is thus advised of changes in your linear velocity.[5] This signal to the vestibular nerve (which takes it to the brainstem) does not adapt with time. The effect of this is that, for example, an individual lying down to sleep will continue to detect that they are lying down hours later when they awaken”.

 

This is interesting because... I have heard many say that when they get relief while in motion, if they stop at a traffic light, they feel as if they’re still moving. I don’t get this often, but sometimes do. It depends on how long I’ve been in motion before abruptly stopping. I’ve observed that when I wake, I get minimal rocking/swaying or complete relief for the first few hours after waking - this is consistent with this delay they are talking about.

 

Hi Irish,

 

I read the same.  Many get relief while in motion in a car.  It’s all very interesting and the hippocampus seems to tie into all of this, as part of a larger neural circuit.

[[cs...]]

Hi Lapis, i hope this information below gets us thinking in bit of a new direction. Perhaps a direction that can be therapeutic

 

Best,

Dm123

 

Hey dm, any chance you can summarize the gist of this in just a couple of short sentences in plain kindergarten English?

 

Hi abcd,

 

I will try.  I’m going to put some additional references below, that I’m still reading up on to figure this theory out.

 

In normal neural circuits, the neurons that make up the circuit fire (action potential) out of phase from one another.  The word “oscillating” is used in this context to refer to the neurons firing at different times.  This is what defines the physiological function of a neural circuit, and it’s function. (For example , walking, as with a motor circuit)

 

At a higher level, different neural circuits, for example those that control various muscles in the leg, fire  in a very precise phasic shifted fashion.  When a doctor hits your knee with a hammer, muscles in the back of the leg relax(inhibited), and muscles in the front of the leg contract(excited), so that the leg can extend up.(reflex response)

 

In the same way, different neural circuits (and neurons that make them up)in the brain, need to fire off out of phase or out of sequence with each other to maintain physiological function.  Vestibular function relative to visual motion is one such circuit.  If these circuts get synchronized, physiological function breaks down and the vestibular ocular spatial coordination goes askew.  One feels very wobbly relative to the external visually environment.

 

Extended time of background motion (motion that is continuous but person is not aware of it) can entrain vestibular neural circuts meaning, it can cause them to fire in synchronization.  This, the paper states, is what is behind the dizziness and wobbly feeling one has when one suffers from MdDS.  The main circuit involved is the entorhinal hippocampus-cortex circuit.  That’s the area of the brain that’s getting synchronized due to continuous background motion.   

 

The big question is, could benzdiazaphine wd and PWS cause similar entrainment??.    Also why do the circuits get stuck in this state?

 

 

We know that Benzodiazaphines do disrupt the phasic firing of neurons in a neural circuit, but I’m not sure if it could entrain networks to fire together, or make it more likely they entrain.    The hippocampus is densely populated with GABAaRs, but not sure about then entorhinal complex (EC).  The hippocampus has something to do with this, but they did not explain it fully.

 

Here are some additional references that I’m reading up on to further understand what exactly is going on.

 

Cha YH, Chakrapani S, Craig A, Baloh RW. Metabolic and functional connectivity changes in mal de debarquement syndrome. PLoS ONE. 2012; 7:e49560. [PubMed: 23209584]

 

Ding L, Shou G, Yuan H, Urbano D, Cha YH. Lasting Modulation Effects of rTMS on Neural Activity and Connectivity as Revealed by Resting State EEG. IEEE Trans Biomed Eng. 2014; 61:2070–80. [PubMed: 24686227]

 

 

[[cs...]]

Update:  I did a quick search and did find this.  There’s probably many more like it

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5994561/

 

Spatiotemporal Distribution of GABAA Receptor Subunits Within Layer II of Mouse Medial Entorhinal Cortex: Implications for Grid Cell Excitability

 

 

And we know the hippocampus is very very densely populated with GABAaRs.

[[...]]

The big question is, could benzdiazaphine wd and PWS cause similar entrainment??.    Also why do the circuits get stuck in this state?

 

 

We know that Benzodiazaphines do disrupt the phasic firing of neurons in a neural circuit, but I’m not sure if it could entrain networks to fire together, or make it more likely they entrain.    The hippocampus is densely populated with GABAaRs, but not sure about then entorhinal complex (EC).  The hippocampus has something to do with this, but they did not explain it fully.

 

Here are some additional references that I’m reading up on to further understand what exactly is going on.

 

 

Thanks, dm.  Of note, though, is that IrishMonkey has never taken benzos.  One or two others here have also reported that their rocky boat began during their SSRI tapers.  There appears to be more recognition/acceptance in general of this symptom resulting from SSRI w/d.

[[La...]]

Yes, and I took both benzos and SSRIs (well, one was an SNRI).

 

I've posted about the book "The Antidepressant Solution" before, in which the author (a Harvard psychiatrist) states that dizziness (yes, the floaty-boat kind) is the most common withdrawal symptom from SSRIs/SNRIs. The withdrawal symptoms from benzos and SSRIs are quite similar, as per a paper by Dr. Peter Goeztsche that I've posted before.

 

 

 

[[...]]

 

abcd,when you say pulsating rockiness,is it like a push pull kind of off balance?I agree with you that we need to challenge ourselves with moving everyday to help out bodies rebalance.It is easier some days,and some days I really,really have to push myself because it's so hard,and I just want to sit down and not move.I can't anyways as there is always too much to do around here,so good or bad days I just keep moving.

 

I do get grouchy like a bear some days.......

 

Hey 2200, sorry for the delay, this one nearly fell through the cracks.  Here, I've pulled up this past post to describe mine better.  I wouldn't really call it push/pull (except that it feels as if its push/pulling my muscles).  In my case, it really all seems to point to a cardiovascular issue.  Feels like my blood flow is so turbulent and forceful that it literally rocks my body and my layman theory is that perhaps the off balance sensation might be due to that turbulence impacting around my ear/neck area causing some proprioception issues.  I don't feel it at all whilst walking.  When standing still, I can feel the pulsations but it doesn't affect my balance, so it's only when sitting or lying that I'm affected.

 

It's also objective, not merely subjective ... meaning it can be seen/felt by others too ... my carotid artery is visibly engorged and pulsates, plus my abdomen pulsates, etc, and a heartbeat can be felt by others in my upper back, back of neck, occipitals, cheeks, etc.  And I'll also go through phases of having pulsatile tinnitus (comes and goes) which is positional, meaning gets worse when I move my neck in a certain position. 

 

Weird, strange, spooky stuff.  Quite different from anyone else's here that I've come across.

 

Here's that excerpt from a past post.

 

 

 

But the 24/7 heart pounding with such force and the movement going on, it feels like all my head/face/upper back muscles and bones and blood vessels are oscillating and bouncing and being pushed/pulled.  It's real movement, it's not just a sensation of movement.  My heartbeat can be felt everywhere in my upper body including my cheeks.    That and the vise squeezing my whole head/face, well, imagine trying to balance in a chair or settle your head on a pillow every night?   

 

[[...]]

Yes, and I took both benzos and SSRIs (well, one was an SNRI).

 

I've posted about the book "The Antidepressant Solution" before, in which the author (a Harvard psychiatrist) states that dizziness (yes, the floaty-boat kind) is the most common withdrawal symptom from SSRIs/SNRIs. The withdrawal symptoms from benzos and SSRIs are quite similar, as per a paper by Dr. Peter Goeztsche that I've posted before.

 

 

Yes, and then, let's not forget that it also appears to be a *VERY* common symptom for Lyme patients.  So, IMO, as much as Gaba always gets the bad rap simply because it's really the one and only neurotransmitter that's been studied the most, there's obviously so much more at play with the benzos.  For all anyone knows, the GABAaRs may be the least of our worries.  My opinion, of course.

[Guest [...]]

 

abcd,when you say pulsating rockiness,is it like a push pull kind of off balance?I agree with you that we need to challenge ourselves with moving everyday to help out bodies rebalance.It is easier some days,and some days I really,really have to push myself because it's so hard,and I just want to sit down and not move.I can't anyways as there is always too much to do around here,so good or bad days I just keep moving.

 

I do get grouchy like a bear some days.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

abcd,thank you for telling me what your off balance stuff feels like.I really think withdrawal affects our cardiovascular system big time.I think that is why so many of us go to the ER in the beginning thinking we are having heart problems,or really high blood pressure.

 

I get that heart beat feeling in my upper stomach right before I get hit with an adrenaline rush type of anxiety.Stomach issues trigger anxiety too for me.Then my head stuff kicks in and I get this weird racing feeling and feel panicky and internal shaking,yet my pulse isn't overly fast.I just feel overwhelmed like I am losing it.

 

It seems like everybody going through this gets a nice unique set of crazy symptoms!

 

 

I also agree with Lapis that the anti-depressants can trigger dizziness,and I also had this weird depersonalization feeling on them,and they made me feel like I was racing inside.I wish everyday I had never touched benzos or antidepressants.That is what I get for losing it and crying in the doctors office many years ago over the stress I was under at the time.Out came the prescription pad and me not knowing any better,I tried all the prescriptions I was given on the hope of feeling well again.

 

Now after stopping so many of us are spending years trying to get our bodies back to homeostasis.It's all so crazy!

 

Take care abcd!Always good to read your posts!

 

 

Hey 2200, sorry for the delay, this one nearly fell through the cracks.  Here, I've pulled up this past post to describe mine better.  I wouldn't really call it push/pull (except that it feels as if its push/pulling my muscles).  In my case, it really all seems to point to a cardiovascular issue.  Feels like my blood flow is so turbulent and forceful that it literally rocks my body and my layman theory is that perhaps the off balance sensation might be due to that turbulence impacting around my ear/neck area causing some proprioception issues.  I don't feel it at all whilst walking.  When standing still, I can feel the pulsations but it doesn't affect my balance, so it's only when sitting or lying that I'm affected.

 

It's also objective, not merely subjective ... meaning it can be seen/felt by others too ... my carotid artery is visibly engorged and pulsates, plus my abdomen pulsates, etc, and a heartbeat can be felt by others in my upper back, back of neck, occipitals, cheeks, etc.  And I'll also go through phases of having pulsatile tinnitus (comes and goes) which is positional, meaning gets worse when I move my neck in a certain position. 

 

Weird, strange, spooky stuff.  Quite different from anyone else's here that I've come across.

 

Here's that excerpt from a past post.

 

 

 

But the 24/7 heart pounding with such force and the movement going on, it feels like all my head/face/upper back muscles and bones and blood vessels are oscillating and bouncing and being pushed/pulled.  It's real movement, it's not just a sensation of movement.  My heartbeat can be felt everywhere in my upper body including my cheeks.    That and the vise squeezing my whole head/face, well, imagine trying to balance in a chair or settle your head on a pillow every night?   

[Guest [...]]

Yes, and I took both benzos and SSRIs (well, one was an SNRI).

 

I've posted about the book "The Antidepressant Solution" before, in which the author (a Harvard psychiatrist) states that dizziness (yes, the floaty-boat kind) is the most common withdrawal symptom from SSRIs/SNRIs. The withdrawal symptoms from benzos and SSRIs are quite similar, as per a paper by Dr. Peter Goeztsche that I've posted before.

 

 

 

 

 

 

abcd,do you think it is more than GABA receptors out of whack?That is so interesting!I wonder that too......

 

Yes, and then, let's not forget that it also appears to be a *VERY* common symptom for Lyme patients.  So, IMO, as much as Gaba always gets the bad rap simply because it's really the one and only neurotransmitter that's been studied the most, there's obviously so much more at play with the benzos.  For all anyone knows, the GABAaRs may be the least of our worries.  My opinion, of course.

[[La...]]

I keep in mind that there are at least eight neurotransmitters involved in the vestibular system. Benzos, SSRIs, SNRIs and other psych meds all affect the neurotransmitters, and, as such, may cause dizziness. Many other meds can do so as well, but it may be via other mechanisms. Check the side effects list of most meds and you'll probably find dizziness on the list.

 

I also keep in mind that benzos are known as "vestibular suppressants" in the medical literature, although SSRIs and SNRIs are not. Antihistamines and anticholinergics are also known as "vestibular suppressants".

 

 

[Guest [...]]

I keep in mind that there are at least eight neurotransmitters involved in the vestibular system. Benzos, SSRIs, SNRIs and other psych meds all affect the neurotransmitters, and, as such, may cause dizziness. Many other meds can do so as well, but it may be via other mechanisms. Check the side effects list of most meds and you'll probably find dizziness on the list.

 

I also keep in mind that benzos are known as "vestibular suppressants" in the medical literature, although SSRIs and SNRIs are not. Antihistamines and anticholinergics are also known as "vestibular suppressants".

 

 

Hi Lapis!Good info there!I wanted to add that so many drugs can make the brain sleepy.(dizzy meds,antihistamines/allergy meds,etc.)I always think it's funny how the Drs.will give you meds for dizziness that make your brain sleepy and cause dizziness as a side effect!

[[La...]]

Yes, it doesn't make sense at all, 2200!

[[...]]

 

abcd,do you think it is more than GABA receptors out of whack?That is so interesting!I wonder that too......

 

 

Two word answer to that ... HELL YEAH!!!

 

I always wanted to write my own Gaba-Shmabba-Blabber paper in response to Perserverance's work, lol, it would be quite a riot.  Unfortunately, am way too compromised for what it would entail ... if I could do that, I'd be out in the world and working.  Too bad!   Now remember, I'm kindergarten non-scientific-type layman, but in my early days here, all I kept hearing was this Gaba word of course and I became a bit like a dog with a bone trying to understand it ... so I read every single post in all Perserverance's threads, watched Youtube for dummy videos and other neuro biology/chemisty 101 articles , slogged through a gazillion studies, including searching all the way back to when Gaba was discovered, OMFG what a dork ... but it kept me busy and interested at the time. 

 

And my personal conclusion?  Well, after a while, it just became more and more clear to me how little they actually know.  To this day they're still just working on previous best guesses.  That's what science is, after all, right?  The scientists form the best model they can at any one time but they can rarely know the absolute truth, it's far too complex for that, but based on their various experiments and observations, they form hypotheses, some of which stick and become accepted as "truths".  Then these "truths" are used as a foundation upon which they build and publish more studies ... and so on and so on.  THEN, as time passes, many of these former "truths" are revealed to be FALSE!!! 

 

A publication alone does not validate a hypothesis.  How many of these experiments have even been replicated?  Not to mention publication bias and all that other good stuff.   To me, it's like building a house of cards. 

 

Also, in so many articles I read, they were finding "unexpected" or "surprising" effects related to their experiments messing around with Gaba.  So this now even raises doubt as to the present "truth" about Gaba being the "calming/relaxing" neurotransmitter.  I guess, much like Serotonin was or still is believed by some to be the mood/depression regulator, and yet there are antidepressants on the market in Europe which actually do the opposite, they deplete Serotonin! 

 

One of the most important questions I'd ask is why then is it that not everyone's experience with these meds is the same?  We're not freshly built, just out of the box computers ... and even then, install exactly the same software on each identical computer and some of them will present with different issues.  We all come into this so differently, we all have different chemistry, different meds, different lifestyles, different other ailments, personality differences, other stressors, support systems.  And on and on.  And on.  And on ...

 

Know what I mean?  And I've just seen Lapis' post which seems to support my take on all this.

 

And now I'm already all typed out but I did want to close by saying to dm that I'd have enjoyed discussing this with you, seeing as we're both on completely different sides of the fence.  I did start throwing some studies together all those years ago but it's one disorganized mess, it would take some work to pull them up again.  Also, dm, I did initially try and follow your thread but, seriously, I found it far too hard to read (the lack of formatting and all the quotes) plus it just ain't layman talk, lol!  Seriously, it's far, far, far too technical in its terminology I'm sure for probably 90% of us (not that I want to speak for everyone else).  But, that said, I do understand it would take a huge amount of effort to prepare and post your research in a more simplified or symbolic format.

 

Hoping everyone's having an okayish kinda day.

[[4m...]]

I haven't posted in quite some time - to be honest I took a break from this forum for a time because I became so discouraged that this horrid feeling would never go away.  I was recently sent to a neurologist who checked my B1 level and did a contrast cat scan.  He asked during my exam if I drink.  When I responded that I do his reply was, "yeah I see this a lot in alcoholics" completely dismissing any connections to benzo use in the past.  Anyway the B1 level he had expected to be very low - due to my "alcoholism" came back slightly elevated and the cat scan was clear - SO.. NOT the alcoholic he assumed me to be.  His report stated there is no conclusive reason for the symptoms.  I know many of you have been through the same tests to rule out another cause.

 

At any rate, my question to you all (forgive me if this has already been answered/addressed) - have any of you found any balance strengthening exercises that are helpful in retraining the brain?  Have you found any diet tips that are useful?  I do know that alcohol does affect the healing and have cut WAY back from the amount I used to drink.  I am just curious if there are any other lifestyle tips others have found useful.  One new thing I have started working on is looking ahead instead of down while walking - as many of you can relate to, this is NO easy task!  However I am determined to be the best me I can be in spite of this condition that I have no control over.  I know continuing to do what I've done since the symptoms began will never allow me to have any hope of overcoming.

 

Thank you all for your time.  I look forward to your helpful advise. 

 

Have a blessed day.

[[La...]]

Hi 4mylife,

I can't tell from what you've written how much alcohol you might be drinking on a daily or weekly basis, or whether it's part of the "condition that [you] have no control over". If it's a major issue for you, then I'm sure you're aware of the effect it has on balance -- essentially, interfering completely with normal balance. Are you able to share a bit more on that?

 

As far as exercise goes, it's important to keep as active as you possibly can within whatever limitations you're dealing with. To my knowledge, there aren't specific exercises that counteract this particular type of dizziness, but walking, strengthening, balance exercises, stretching, etc. -- it's all good. Vestibular rehabilitation exercises seem to address a different kind of dizziness than most of us around here are dealing with, but it may still be worthwhile to consult with a specialist who's trained in this area and who may be able to shed light on your particular situation.

[[4m...]]

Thank you for your response.  I will admit at one time I was drinking on a daily basis.  I have not done that in quite some time.  Now I limit it to having a few (if any) only on the weekend.  I am fully aware of the affect it has on balance, especially if I overindulge. 

I recently bought a Tia Chi video and thought I would give that a shot to see if it would help strengthen my ability to feel balanced.  I, like so many others, was sure this boaty feeling would have passed by now.  I went to a chiropractor to see if that avenue would help - oh MAN it sure didn't!!!  It got so much worse, which is what convinced me there MUST be something else seriously wrong.  Now that I know that isn't the case it has helped relieve my anxiety and overthinking the whole issue and now I have recommitted to getting myself healthy and strong to the best of my ability.

Thanks again for your input.  I have appreciated this site so much - somehow knowing I'm not alone in this is helpful.

[Guest [...]]

I haven't posted in quite some time - to be honest I took a break from this forum for a time because I became so discouraged that this horrid feeling would never go away.  I was recently sent to a neurologist who checked my B1 level and did a contrast cat scan.  He asked during my exam if I drink.  When I responded that I do his reply was, "yeah I see this a lot in alcoholics" completely dismissing any connections to benzo use in the past.  Anyway the B1 level he had expected to be very low - due to my "alcoholism" came back slightly elevated and the cat scan was clear - SO.. NOT the alcoholic he assumed me to be.  His report stated there is no conclusive reason for the symptoms.  I know many of you have been through the same tests to rule out another cause.

 

At any rate, my question to you all (forgive me if this has already been answered/addressed) - have any of you found any balance strengthening exercises that are helpful in retraining the brain?  Have you found any diet tips that are useful?  I do know that alcohol does affect the healing and have cut WAY back from the amount I used to drink.  I am just curious if there are any other lifestyle tips others have found useful.  One new thing I have started working on is looking ahead instead of down while walking - as many of you can relate to, this is NO easy task!  However I am determined to be the best me I can be in spite of this condition that I have no control over.  I know continuing to do what I've done since the symptoms began will never allow me to have any hope of overcoming.

 

Thank you all for your time.  I look forward to your helpful advise. 

 

Have a blessed day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi 4mylife!It is good to hear from you!I wanted to add my thoughts on if we have any good advice on how to over come this dizzy mess,and I have to tell you I am still struggling too,so I know how frustrating this is!I do want to say that dizziness was one of two symptoms that was the worst for me since day one.I remember being so dizzy when I first quit that it actually felt like someone was pushing down on the top of my head.Also,dizziness triggers panic attacks for me,so more fun!

 

 

But,I am so much better than I was even 4 years ago.It's just it has been such a super slow crawl,that if I weren't watching I would have missed it!I still get off balance when moving my head,and walking is a big challenge.The tinnitus and brain fog add to the mix,but they are getting milder.I notice some days are much lighter,and easier then others,and then I get the bad days in there which mean more trouble walking and just doing my daily chores ,etc.You probably read on here where we sometimes rate the dizzy feeling,and I can say I used to be a 10+,where now I am about a 3.Again,it bumps up to a 6 or so on a bad day,but goes back down to a new set point,so I really believe this is going to go away as it will for all of us.For some of us it is just extra slow.Maybe we have more sensitive vestibular systems that take longer to reset,I just don't know.

 

 

What I do,and have done from day one is to just keep trying to do the regular routine you used to do,and challenge yourself to push a bit harder to get there as much as you can.Some days you just can't and I take it a bit easier those days when I can.I sort of have to keep doing a certain amount of things and have since I stopped because some things just have to get done,and I gotta do it.

I think as we putter a long we are healing,and doing our normal stuff will hopefully encourage our vestibular system to get back to homeostasis.I keep thinking about that while I am walking in my yard trying to swing my arms and not look at the ground all the time,while feeling sooo off balance and knowing I must look so goofy walking so wonky,all while trying to act normal!

 

Anyway,sorry I didn't have much to inspire you!Just wanted to tell you,keep going,keep moving,and it is what it is until we heal.

 

Take care! 

[[La...]]

That was a fantastic post, 2200! Thank you so much for that! I've already read it twice and will likely read it a couple more times. 

[[4m...]]

I haven't posted in quite some time - to be honest I took a break from this forum for a time because I became so discouraged that this horrid feeling would never go away.  I was recently sent to a neurologist who checked my B1 level and did a contrast cat scan.  He asked during my exam if I drink.  When I responded that I do his reply was, "yeah I see this a lot in alcoholics" completely dismissing any connections to benzo use in the past.  Anyway the B1 level he had expected to be very low - due to my "alcoholism" came back slightly elevated and the cat scan was clear - SO.. NOT the alcoholic he assumed me to be.  His report stated there is no conclusive reason for the symptoms.  I know many of you have been through the same tests to rule out another cause.

 

At any rate, my question to you all (forgive me if this has already been answered/addressed) - have any of you found any balance strengthening exercises that are helpful in retraining the brain?  Have you found any diet tips that are useful?  I do know that alcohol does affect the healing and have cut WAY back from the amount I used to drink.  I am just curious if there are any other lifestyle tips others have found useful.  One new thing I have started working on is looking ahead instead of down while walking - as many of you can relate to, this is NO easy task!  However I am determined to be the best me I can be in spite of this condition that I have no control over.  I know continuing to do what I've done since the symptoms began will never allow me to have any hope of overcoming.

 

Thank you all for your time.  I look forward to your helpful advise. 

 

Have a blessed day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi 4mylife!It is good to hear from you!I wanted to add my thoughts on if we have any good advice on how to over come this dizzy mess,and I have to tell you I am still struggling too,so I know how frustrating this is!I do want to say that dizziness was one of two symptoms that was the worst for me since day one.I remember being so dizzy when I first quit that it actually felt like someone was pushing down on the top of my head.Also,dizziness triggers panic attacks for me,so more fun!

 

 

But,I am so much better than I was even 4 years ago.It's just it has been such a super slow crawl,that if I weren't watching I would have missed it!I still get off balance when moving my head,and walking is a big challenge.The tinnitus and brain fog add to the mix,but they are getting milder.I notice some days are much lighter,and easier then others,and then I get the bad days in there which mean more trouble walking and just doing my daily chores ,etc.You probably read on here where we sometimes rate the dizzy feeling,and I can say I used to be a 10+,where now I am about a 3.Again,it bumps up to a 6 or so on a bad day,but goes back down to a new set point,so I really believe this is going to go away as it will for all of us.For some of us it is just extra slow.Maybe we have more sensitive vestibular systems that take longer to reset,I just don't know.

 

 

What I do,and have done from day one is to just keep trying to do the regular routine you used to do,and challenge yourself to push a bit harder to get there as much as you can.Some days you just can't and I take it a bit easier those days when I can.I sort of have to keep doing a certain amount of things and have since I stopped because some things just have to get done,and I gotta do it.

I think as we putter a long we are healing,and doing our normal stuff will hopefully encourage our vestibular system to get back to homeostasis.I keep thinking about that while I am walking in my yard trying to swing my arms and not look at the ground all the time,while feeling sooo off balance and knowing I must look so goofy walking so wonky,all while trying to act normal!

 

Anyway,sorry I didn't have much to inspire you!Just wanted to tell you,keep going,keep moving,and it is what it is until we heal.

 

Take care! 

 

Thank you SO much - that was encouraging actually.  I really do feel much better than I did at the beginning, so I am encouraged in that.  My family dr put me on a prescription sinus medication at night, then an over the counter medication in the morning just to ensure I don't have sinus problems making all this worse.  That does help with the pressure in the head feeling that seems to go along with all this.  I have good days, then I have not so good days.  But I am always grateful for the good days.  I do believe some of us are more sensitive than others, myself being one of those people.  I always seem to have adverse reactions to medications - which is why I think the benzos really took a toll on me in spite of never being on a very high dose.

 

I sure can relate on the walking all wonky!!!  lol  As you said - we will get there one day.

 

Take care, and thank you again!

[[cs...]]

The big question is, could benzdiazaphine wd and PWS cause similar entrainment??.    Also why do the circuits get stuck in this state?

 

 

We know that Benzodiazaphines do disrupt the phasic firing of neurons in a neural circuit, but I’m not sure if it could entrain networks to fire together, or make it more likely they entrain.    The hippocampus is densely populated with GABAaRs, but not sure about then entorhinal complex (EC).  The hippocampus has something to do with this, but they did not explain it fully.

 

Here are some additional references that I’m reading up on to further understand what exactly is going on.

 

 

Thanks, dm.  Of note, though, is that IrishMonkey has never taken benzos.  One or two others here have also reported that their rocky boat began during their SSRI tapers.  There appears to be more recognition/acceptance in general of this symptom resulting from SSRI w/d.

 

I see.  Yes I ran into the “SSRI wd and vestibular issues” idea in several of the papers I have read.

[[La...]]

Thank you for your response.  I will admit at one time I was drinking on a daily basis.  I have not done that in quite some time.  Now I limit it to having a few (if any) only on the weekend.  I am fully aware of the affect it has on balance, especially if I overindulge. 

I recently bought a Tia Chi video and thought I would give that a shot to see if it would help strengthen my ability to feel balanced.  I, like so many others, was sure this boaty feeling would have passed by now.  I went to a chiropractor to see if that avenue would help - oh MAN it sure didn't!!!  It got so much worse, which is what convinced me there MUST be something else seriously wrong.  Now that I know that isn't the case it has helped relieve my anxiety and overthinking the whole issue and now I have recommitted to getting myself healthy and strong to the best of my ability.

Thanks again for your input.  I have appreciated this site so much - somehow knowing I'm not alone in this is helpful.

 

T'ai Chi is a great idea, 4mylife! It hits all the right notes in terms of being gentle, helping with balance, coordination, strength, concentration, etc. I used to do it years ago and I loved it so much. I've got some serious foot issues right now, so I'm limited to using a walker for walking and doing a series of exercises for specific muscle groups, but any all-over exercise -- especially something in standing -- is a good thing with regards to neuroplasticity in the brain. Keep it up!

 

I'm sorry to hear about that bad experience with a chiropractor. I admit that I'm not a big fan of that type of therapy. I would always choose physiotherapy for a soft-tissue issue, because in my opinion, it just makes sense. Some have specific training in vestibular rehabilitation, which is a field that's growing. I keep checking PubMed to see if I see any developments that might pertain to us.

 

Thanks for the clarification regarding alcohol. When you were mentioning your experience with the testing, I wasn't quite sure, and I didn't want to misconstrue anything.