Are hypnagogic symptoms related to anxiety?

[[Do...]]

Hi,

I have explained in here a few times how i could overcome anxiety and panic atacks but in WD i am having a terrible time with hypnagogic jerks constantly when trying to sleep, sometimes also hypnagogic hallucinations and what i think is called chemical terror which i would define it as the terror feeling you get when you are having a panic atack but without the physical symptoms, no sweet, no tremors, nothing, just the feeling with scary intrusive thoughts of horrible stuff.

I recently found out about hypnagogic and always thought it was some kind of weird (even more weird) anxiety and now that i know is something else i wonder if this has something to do with anxiety or is something else.

For me this are my worst symptoms by far cause i can stand physical symptoms but this mind terror stuff makes me feel i am losing my mind and is so hard to keep the calm.

Any advice or info will be very much appreciated.

Edited Friday at 13:27 by [Do...]

[[Br...]]

@[Do...] -  Your post really captures the misery of the symptoms you're having.  It's a kind of torture when you're in the middle of it - it can help to remind yourself these symptoms tend to fade away over time.

As I understand it hypnagogic refers to the state just before falling asleep.  

Anxiety and intrusive thoughts & memories, looping scary thoughts etc. during withdrawal can be brutal.   These symptoms faded away for me. At 4 1/2 years out I still experience anxiety and but now it is a mere little mouse compared to the fearsome monster it was during withdrawal.  I believe these symptoms will ease up for you over time.  

I found drinking a cup of very strong chamomile tea & taking long very warm Epsom salts baths with lavender oil before bed helped put me in a very relaxed state for sleep.  

My understanding of the kind of jerks you describe which often happen during the phase just before you fall asleep (often called myoclonic jerks) are a result of your muscles adjusting to to the reduction or absence of benzos - as you know benzos are power muscle relaxants and they kind of overreact after benzos before your system find equilibrium again.

Here's what the Ashton Manual Chapter III says about muscle symptoms:

Muscle Symptoms

Benzodiazepines are efficient muscle relaxants and are used clinically for spastic conditions ranging from spinal cord disease or injury to the excruciating muscle spasms of tetanus or rabies. It is therefore not surprising that their discontinuation after long-term use is associated with a rebound increase in muscle tension. This rebound accounts for many of the symptoms observed in benzodiazepine withdrawal. Muscle stiffness affecting the limbs, back, neck and jaw are commonly reported, and the constant muscle tension probably accounts for the muscle pains which have a similar distribution. Headaches are usually of the “tension headache” type, due to contraction of muscles at the back of the neck, scalp and forehead – often described as a “tight band around the head”. Pain in the jaw and teeth is probably due to involuntary jaw clenching, which often occurs unconsciously during sleep.

At the same time, the nerves to the muscles are hyperexcitable, leading to tremor, tics, jerks, spasm and twitching, and jumping at the smallest stimulus. All this constant activity contributes to a feeling of fatigue and weakness (“jelly-legs”). In addition, the muscles, especially the small muscles of the eye, are not well co-ordinated, which may lead to blurred or double vision or even eyelid spasms (blepharospasm).

None of these symptoms is harmful, and they need not be a cause of worry once they are understood. The muscle pain and stiffness is actually little different from what is regarded as normal after an unaccustomed bout of exercise, and would be positively expected, even by a well-trained athlete, after running a marathon.

There are many measures that will alleviate these symptoms, such as muscle stretching exercises as taught in most gyms, moderate exercise, hot baths, massage and general relaxation exercises. Such measures may give only temporary relief at first, but if practised regularly can speed the recovery of normal muscle tone – which will eventually occur spontaneously.

 

[[Do...]]

4 minutes ago, [[B...] said:

@[Do...] -  Your post really captures the misery of the symptoms you're having.  It's a kind of torture when you're in the middle of it - it can help to remind yourself these symptoms tend to fade away over time.

As I understand it hypnagogic refers to the state just before falling asleep.  

Anxiety and intrusive thoughts & memories, looping scary thoughts etc. during withdrawal can be brutal.   These symptoms faded away for me. At 4 1/2 years out I still experience anxiety and but now it is a mere little mouse compared to the fearsome monster it was during withdrawal.  I believe these symptoms will ease up for you over time.  

I found drinking a cup of very strong chamomile tea & taking long very warm Epsom salts baths with lavender oil before bed helped put me in a very relaxed state for sleep.  

My understanding of the kind of jerks you describe which often happen during the phase just before you fall asleep (often called myoclonic jerks) are a result of your muscles adjusting to to the reduction or absence of benzos - as you know benzos are power muscle relaxants and they kind of overreact after benzos before your system find equilibrium again.

Here's what the Ashton Manual Chapter III says about muscle symptoms:

Muscle Symptoms

Benzodiazepines are efficient muscle relaxants and are used clinically for spastic conditions ranging from spinal cord disease or injury to the excruciating muscle spasms of tetanus or rabies. It is therefore not surprising that their discontinuation after long-term use is associated with a rebound increase in muscle tension. This rebound accounts for many of the symptoms observed in benzodiazepine withdrawal. Muscle stiffness affecting the limbs, back, neck and jaw are commonly reported, and the constant muscle tension probably accounts for the muscle pains which have a similar distribution. Headaches are usually of the “tension headache” type, due to contraction of muscles at the back of the neck, scalp and forehead – often described as a “tight band around the head”. Pain in the jaw and teeth is probably due to involuntary jaw clenching, which often occurs unconsciously during sleep.

At the same time, the nerves to the muscles are hyperexcitable, leading to tremor, tics, jerks, spasm and twitching, and jumping at the smallest stimulus. All this constant activity contributes to a feeling of fatigue and weakness (“jelly-legs”). In addition, the muscles, especially the small muscles of the eye, are not well co-ordinated, which may lead to blurred or double vision or even eyelid spasms (blepharospasm).

None of these symptoms is harmful, and they need not be a cause of worry once they are understood. The muscle pain and stiffness is actually little different from what is regarded as normal after an unaccustomed bout of exercise, and would be positively expected, even by a well-trained athlete, after running a marathon.

There are many measures that will alleviate these symptoms, such as muscle stretching exercises as taught in most gyms, moderate exercise, hot baths, massage and general relaxation exercises. Such measures may give only temporary relief at first, but if practised regularly can speed the recovery of normal muscle tone – which will eventually occur spontaneously.

@[Br...] thanks for your kind reply. In my case the anxiety is just a little mouse too compared with what brought me into benzos but this Hypnagogic and most of these mind symptoms are new to me and only showed up since WD.

Thanks again for the answer.

[[jo...]]

1 hour ago, [[D...] said:

Hi,

I have explained in here a few times how i could overcome anxiety and panic atacks but in WD i am having a terrible time with hypnagogic jerks constantly when trying to sleep, sometimes also hypnagogic hallucinations and what i think is called chemical terror which i would define it as the terror feeling you get when you are having a panic atack but without the physical symptoms, no sweet, no tremors, nothing, just the feeling with scary intrusive thoughts of horrible stuff.

I recently found out about hypnagogic and always thought it was some kind of weird (even more weird) anxiety and now that i know is something else i wonder if this has something to do with anxiety or is something else.

For me this are my worst symptoms by far cause i can stand physical symptoms but this mind terror stuff makes me feel i am losing my mind and is so hard to keep the calm.

Any advice or info will be very much appreciated.

I experience this. In fact I am currently experiencing it. It's one of the worst symptoms for me. Catastrophising everything to the extream. I hate it it can get quite scary.

[[Do...]]

9 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

I experience this. In fact I am currently experiencing it. It's one of the worst symptoms for me. Catastrophising everything to the extream. I hate it it can get quite scary.

Yeah, same for me. Someone asked me once which was my worst symptom and i answered it is this one.

Thanks for the support

[[jo...]]

Just now, [[D...] said:

Yeah, same for me. Someone asked me once which was my worst symptom and i answered it is this one.

Thanks for the support

No problem. Yeah the mental stuff is the worst for me. I can deal with what physical stuff I have at the moment. People seem to be worse one way or the other. Mental or phyisical. 

[[Do...]]

Just now, [[j...] said:

No problem. Yeah the mental stuff is the worst for me. I can deal with what physical stuff I have at the moment. People seem to be worse one way or the other. Mental or phyisical. 

For me is the mental stuff too. I guess is cause i had a terrible experience with panic and anxiety and all those are 100% mental so i rather have physical pain and not mental stuff.

[[jo...]]

Just now, [[D...] said:

For me is the mental stuff too. I guess is cause i had a terrible experience with panic and anxiety and all those are 100% mental so i rather have physical pain and not mental stuff.

I agree. I often feel like I would swap if I could but then part of me thinks careful what you wish for because some people struggle bad with phyisical. It's all bad really, just gotta get through it. It all fades eventually.

[[re...]]

No way Dovian man that  is it JUST anxiety. But it can be cemented and then learned from the initial phase of constant jerking awake. I had these so bad I thought I was going to have a stroke and never sleep normal again. I would be up for 2, sometimes 3 days straight with these demons. I ended up having hallucinations from it.  My body jerked constantly for months and months on end and I wanted to end my existence because of it. I went to doctor after doctor (including neuro who really are clueless about any medication, not just head meds,  dysregulation and damage) This led me after about 8 months of nasty jerking to delta 8 gummies recommended from a "natural" doctor that landed me in the ER with Tachycardia. I am so so done with all of these people and their uninformed half wit education. 

Look at BB member "The sun also rises" for more info on hypnic jerks. His wife had them real bad and led her to the K which was a disaster. Since getting off/ post jump she is way better now. 

All of the following hell from my TBI then led me to Diaz. You can be rest assured that once off of the DIaz that they will go away. I had them all throughout my taper sometimes intense, but nothing compared to my initial acute TBI.  I barely get them anymore and I am SO thankful to god for it.  I got on all the hypnic jerk forums and people really have a tough time with these. Benzos only temporarily help initially but will make them WAY worse over time. Diaz is not the first line of treatment. Klonopin usually is along with a combo of either Dapakote or Keppra. 

When I got home from the ER (which will be two years ago this month actually) I developed these in an EXTREME form from my acute TBI and subsequent hardcore ER poly drugging atomic bomb my brain had to endure. 

It is related to the   locus coeruleus.

 

This is located in the brainstem and many call it "myoclonus"

 And the things it needs for health is an abundance of Melatonin, Omega 3's and Serotonin and I can't stress this enough  EXERCISE (Please read Spark by John Ratey pages 97,102,149,158 in regards to specifically the LC). When I would take exogenous melatonin they (hypnic jerks) would not occur as bad BUT so many other things started happening to my sleep and nervous system once I did this and I wish I would of never taken anything exogenous for them if I would of known. 

Once again I will keep repeating this for healing brain injuries and dysregulation.  In THIS order. I had an EXTREME hyponatremia induced brain swelling, intense seizures and following coma and resulting atomic bomb drugging. If I can have healing (although slowly, but definite improvements) anyone can. 

1. Exercise for full regeneration of the brain and the intensive  neuroplasticity that occurs through AEROBIC exercise that won't be of any help in the short term, but long term you will heal yourself faster. It really is that simple. 

2 A high tryptophan diet for the precursor effect of healthy Melatonin production and serotonin production. And a diet as high in animal proteins as possible for the amazing amino acid and peptide profile of these foods. 

3. Staying completely in the dark once the sun sets for healthy melatonin production.

4. Limit computers and i phone screens ALOT. I would not be on computers (that are constantly scrolling in movement, not just the info or the blue light argument, there is WAY more at work here) any more than an hour a day MAX. It is what delayed my healing considerably when I didn't know what was happening to me when I first got out of the hospital. We know what is going on with us and withdrawal. There is no need to keep fueling your fears of symptoms and constant comparisons to other people. 

You need to do all you can to get yourself BIOLOGICALLY healthy before you can even work on the thought process as this is an organic injury and has nothing to do with CBT or any of that crap. The CBT can come later once your dysregulation starts to get a bit better. 

 

 

[[re...]]

Oh and one more thing I almost forgot. HYDRATION. I am talking peeing all the time hydration. It is so important for everything. 

But to get truly hydrated you need a real decent amount of salt. Salt is so crucial for ALL of your functions, nerves, kidneys, and the proper use of the rest of the electrolytes. It really is the MAIN electrolyte above all.  If I would of known all of this I would of never experienced the life threatening effects of hyponatremia and the hell I experienced post hospital/Icu stay. 

I have been doing lots of reading about the history of salt. And wow it is so impressive and of course demonized by mainstream health publications like most things good for you. Salt is usually only bad because you are not drinking enough pure water for your kidneys to filter it the correct way. 

[[Do...]]

1 hour ago, [[r...] said:

No way Dovian man that  is it JUST anxiety.

Hi @[re...] do you mean "no way, is just anxiety" or "no way is just anxiety". Didnt get you well.

I know is cause of the benzos cause i never had these before even in my months of extreme panic and anxiety.

I cant take melatonin pills, they turn my dreams into nightmares and very bad sleep.

I wish i could exercise but i am extreme fatigued still and cant go over a 10 minutes walk without feeling in am gonna pas out, my blod presure is still very low.

And i guess my serotonin is still healing after CT SSRIs.

I cant consider CBT crap as it could make me overcome anxiety and panic when 20 years of SSRIs failed.

My doctor actually recommended me to eat salted food cause of my very low blood presure.

And i do drink a lot, is very hot down here and i need to hydrate myself all day.

[[re...]]

No no man it is WAY more than just anxiety. Sorry for my error in writing there.  This is a full biological dysregulation that needs all the help it can get to reach proper balance.  

Edited Friday at 19:28 by [re...]

[[re...]]

Just so you know I felt like MANY TIMES like passing out during exercise. Like Scarily so. I am not being hyperbolic here. It was such a shock for me at times.  But nothing ever happened. And once you regularly adapt to this major change you won't get those sensations any more. 

What I would try and do though if you can is get a full workup to see that your electrolytes and other levels of things are in proper range. I also would get a full heart work up if you can. This will put your mind at ease. 

You also could definiteley have some POTS going on which will benefit majorly from the salt as you say. And lots of water with it which you are already doing so this is great. 

[[re...]]

You can get through this man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you know this, but sometimes it is good to hear regardless. 

[[da...]]

Iv had these daily for years. I still get them but once in a very long time. And thats on days when im over worked. 

[[re...]]

And also never underestimate the power of constant stretching to calm the brain down and send it back POSTIVE signals when it sends negative signals to your muscles to tighten up and put you in a symptomatic state. 

I find sometimes even my tinnitus will go away just from the stretching really well. 

[[Do...]]

1 hour ago, [[r...] said:

Just so you know I felt like MANY TIMES like passing out during exercise. Like Scarily so. I am not being hyperbolic here. It was such a shock for me at times.  But nothing ever happened. And once you regularly adapt to this major change you won't get those sensations any more. 

What I would try and do though if you can is get a full workup to see that your electrolytes and other levels of things are in proper range. I also would get a full heart work up if you can. This will put your mind at ease. 

You also could definiteley have some POTS going on which will benefit majorly from the salt as you say. And lots of water with it which you are already doing so this is great. 

You cant imagine how debilitated i am, how can you exercise when you can barely sit in the computer for half an hour without having to go back to lay down in the couch.

I hope this changes cause i feel so stressed with a very simple task i have to do.

[[re...]]

I can imagine though because I was there believe me. I remember at times on my bike the shaking and black spots and dizziness and brain kind of not working right at all and oh the creepy blurry vision. So so scary.

But about an hour (or sometimes more) in I would almost ALWAYS start to feel better. I am still  not perfect and not completely out of this mess, just MUCH better than I was. But you would be very surprised by the power of the human spirit even in the face of extreme pain and dysfunction. The brain and body are VERY adaptable. It is just that we have a hard time believing it because of our intense symptoms. 

You know my friend was in a life altering motorcycle accident where the doctors told him he wouldn't ever walk again. I mean i remember seeing him in the hospital and when I left I started crying in the parking lot at how his condition looked to me. But even in his useless state. He completely proved ALL those people wrong and started walking again due to his determination and will. He had a concussion and serious brain injury as well as all his broken neck and back and so many bones. And despite all of this he STILL walked again. He kept at it and started walking again. 

I just HAVE to believe we are somewhat stronger than our symptoms and I will stick to this as I am a rare case that got better by turning my hopelessness and fear into anger at what was done to me and turned that anger into a proactive approach to healing. 

[[re...]]

And maybe on the simpler side of things:

Slow your taper WAY down!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

This could possibly be a good option.