Tapering Klonopin (3.5 months of use)

[[Ha...]]

Hi All,

Newbie to this forum and a little intimidated to put pen to paper, so to speak.

Here's my situation:

• Was put on klonopin about 3.5 months ago due to a prolonged panic episode. I have dealt with panic attacks off and on for years, alcohol use being a big trigger. This episode in particular was not directly triggered by alcohol. 
• I have a long history with Paxil (20 mg), having been on the prescription from age 10 to age 35 (now), roughly. GAD has been a part of my life forever, though always pretty well managed on Paxil.
• I was initially on .5mg of klonopin, felt better after 4 days, and went off of it. Panic attacks hit me on day 5, i resumed klonopin. It didn't occur to me at the time that this may be withdrawal, and maybe it wasn't. Perhaps the symptoms being masked simply reemerged.
• My dose climbed to 1mg over the weeks, and following a major life stressor, i felt ready to get off the klonopin. 5 weeks total on kpin at this point. Instead of suggesting a taper, my doc switched me to gabapentin straight up. By the end of day 2, i was in horrible form. Couldn't sleep, constant suicidal ideation. 
• My doc prescribed 50mg Seroquel for sleep, which i've taken nightly for the past couple months, and we continued gradually increasing my Paxil (now at 50mg).
• Klonopin was of course resumed. My dose briefly climbed to 1.5mgs before feeling a bit better and then I dropped to 1.25 mgs. This is where i'd say my taper really began.
• My psychiatrist laid out my taper plan: .25mg per week. So 5 weeks total. He described that as a conservative approach given the length of time i had been on the drug.
• This worked out very well until i hit .75mg, at which point i went through complete hell. No panic, just persistent unbearable anxiety, depression, crying fits, thoughts of death, my wife leaving me, my life never being the same. It took a couple of weeks before i stabilized at .75mg. I started to feel like myself - pretty damn good in fact.
• We decided to try 1/8th of milligram for my next taper. I felt good for about 4 days at .625mg, then the anxiety and depression hit. Anxiety especially pronounced in the morning, crying fits in the afternoon, and after about 9-10 days at .625mg, i stabilized. Felt like myself yet again.
• With this data, i told my doc i wanted to switch to 1/16th of a milligram for my next tapers, and to proceed based on my symptoms. He was OK with this, but remarked that in his 15 years of weaning people off benzos, he had never encountered anyone who was unable to tolerate 1/8th reductions. Definitely made me feel uncomfortable to hear him say that, given the endless examples of people that taper by even smaller amounts which abound places like this and reddit.
• I have been successful in tapering from .625 to .5mg over the past month. I still haven't fully stabilized at .5mg after 11 days, but my bad days are nowhere near the worst days i've experienced through this taper.

So here i am, 3.5 months in. Taking .5mg klonopin daily, 50mg Seroquel, and 50mg Paxil. I'm tinkering with a smaller Seroquel dose, because i know people can experience insomnia coming off of that in its own right. 

I suppose the big questions plaguing my brain at this point are the following:

• I've been on klonopin for 3.5 months. A slower taper means, well, i'll be on the drug for a longer period of time. I'll be someone who's been on klonopin for 6 months, maybe 9 months, etc. I've read that withdrawal severity and chance of PAWS is influenced by duration and dose. So, yes, i want an easier taper and i want to prevent a harsh landing when i jump. But, i don't want to extend the duration longer than I need to.
• Though my Psychiatrist is super reachable in between appointments, clearly intelligent (ivy league eduacted), prescribes meds diligently (prior psych was an airhead in this regard), his attitude toward benzodiazepines and how to prescribe/withdraw is cavalier at best, woefully undereducated and irresponsible at worst. He is also out of network, and therefore very expensive. How the hell does one go about switching psychiatrists when there is the possibility the next psych 1) won't even prescribe benzos, 2) is difficult to reach in between appointments, 3) has the same attitudes toward benzos as much of the medical community (rapid taper, belief that PAWS are very rare, etc). Also, I very much would like to avoid any perception on the part of my insurance that I am "doctor shopping." I live in NYC, surely there is an in-network doc that has heard of the Ashton Protocol and believes it has merit for those who have only been on klonopin for a few months.
• And i suppose this overarching question that i'd imagine plagues so many: am i headed in the right direction? Do i have reason to be hopeful? Losing hope at points has been the most difficult part of this process. I was primarily a happy, gainfully employed (on FMLA currently which runs out in 1 month), physically healthy guy with so much to be happy about/proud of just 4 months ago. I had my bouts with panic attacks, but they never stuck around long. My GAD was pretty well managed. I want so badly to get back to that point, and having kicked alcohol in this process, I believe I'll be in an even better position. If I can just get back to that point.

Appreciate anyone who made it through this ramble and has advice/support to provide. 

 

All the love-

Hagibis

 

[[Pa...]]

Hello @[Ha...], welcome to BenzoBuddies,

I want to commend you for advocating for yourself with your doctor and insisting on tapering according to your needs, good for you.  It sounds like you’ve found that going slower can keep you functional and that’s the purpose of a taper.  I know its scary reading all of the available literature about long term benzo use and the complications but you’re moving in the right direction, I don’t believe a few months will make a difference because your body is obviously already dependent.  When I think of long term benzo use, I look at members who have been on it for decades. 

I understand why you don’t feel comfortable with your doctor anymore but it sounds like he’s willing to let you taper slower and to tell you the truth, you need him so it might be in your best interest to keep seeing him.  Obviously the trust is gone but you can still use him for your benzodiazepine needs and its tough to find medical practitioners who understands our plight. 

I think you have plenty of reasons to hope, getting off of these drugs is tough and once free, we face a difficult recovery but we can recover and get back to our normal.  

I know I haven’t addressed all of your points but lets keep talking, you’re in the right place.

Pamster

 

[[Ha...]]

Thanks so much for the reply, Pamster. 
Realizing I may have made this post a little too wordy to gain traction. 
 

I have really oscillated between deep despair/hopelessness, and feeling almost completely normal throughout my taper. But, on days like today, it feels like I’ll never see the other side of this madness.

To make matters worse, I need to return to work (in a modified capacity at least) within the next few weeks.

Oh, and I’m getting married in June. And here I am worrying about ever feeling normal again. Scary stuff.

 

[[Pa...]]

Your oscillating is quite normal, our symptoms wax and wane for no reason so we never know from one day to the next how we’re going to feel, or should I say one minute to the next?  You WILL see the other side of this madness, we can recover so don’t lose hope. 

Many of our members have been able to work throughout their tapers, I went back to work 3 weeks after my cold turkey and it was difficult but it was better than sitting around with only my symptoms for company.  I actually grew to dread weekends because I didn’t have the distraction work offered my tortured mind and body.

Congratulations on your upcoming marriage, I’m sure it’s a scary prospect because if you’re like I was, we lose touch with our positive emotions like joy and even love, we lose our connection to ourselves so it makes it difficult to connect with others.  I’m here to tell you that all the good stuff comes back when we recover so hang on and know you’ll feel normal again. 

[[Je...]]

On 19/10/2023 at 18:18, [[H...] said:

Hi All,

Newbie to this forum and a little intimidated to put pen to paper, so to speak.

Here's my situation:

• Was put on klonopin about 3.5 months ago due to a prolonged panic episode. I have dealt with panic attacks off and on for years, alcohol use being a big trigger. This episode in particular was not directly triggered by alcohol. 
• I have a long history with Paxil (20 mg), having been on the prescription from age 10 to age 35 (now), roughly. GAD has been a part of my life forever, though always pretty well managed on Paxil.
• I was initially on .5mg of klonopin, felt better after 4 days, and went off of it. Panic attacks hit me on day 5, i resumed klonopin. It didn't occur to me at the time that this may be withdrawal, and maybe it wasn't. Perhaps the symptoms being masked simply reemerged.
• My dose climbed to 1mg over the weeks, and following a major life stressor, i felt ready to get off the klonopin. 5 weeks total on kpin at this point. Instead of suggesting a taper, my doc switched me to gabapentin straight up. By the end of day 2, i was in horrible form. Couldn't sleep, constant suicidal ideation. 
• My doc prescribed 50mg Seroquel for sleep, which i've taken nightly for the past couple months, and we continued gradually increasing my Paxil (now at 50mg).
• Klonopin was of course resumed. My dose briefly climbed to 1.5mgs before feeling a bit better and then I dropped to 1.25 mgs. This is where i'd say my taper really began.
• My psychiatrist laid out my taper plan: .25mg per week. So 5 weeks total. He described that as a conservative approach given the length of time i had been on the drug.
• This worked out very well until i hit .75mg, at which point i went through complete hell. No panic, just persistent unbearable anxiety, depression, crying fits, thoughts of death, my wife leaving me, my life never being the same. It took a couple of weeks before i stabilized at .75mg. I started to feel like myself - pretty damn good in fact.
• We decided to try 1/8th of milligram for my next taper. I felt good for about 4 days at .625mg, then the anxiety and depression hit. Anxiety especially pronounced in the morning, crying fits in the afternoon, and after about 9-10 days at .625mg, i stabilized. Felt like myself yet again.
• With this data, i told my doc i wanted to switch to 1/16th of a milligram for my next tapers, and to proceed based on my symptoms. He was OK with this, but remarked that in his 15 years of weaning people off benzos, he had never encountered anyone who was unable to tolerate 1/8th reductions. Definitely made me feel uncomfortable to hear him say that, given the endless examples of people that taper by even smaller amounts which abound places like this and reddit.
• I have been successful in tapering from .625 to .5mg over the past month. I still haven't fully stabilized at .5mg after 11 days, but my bad days are nowhere near the worst days i've experienced through this taper.

So here i am, 3.5 months in. Taking .5mg klonopin daily, 50mg Seroquel, and 50mg Paxil. I'm tinkering with a smaller Seroquel dose, because i know people can experience insomnia coming off of that in its own right. 

I suppose the big questions plaguing my brain at this point are the following:

• I've been on klonopin for 3.5 months. A slower taper means, well, i'll be on the drug for a longer period of time. I'll be someone who's been on klonopin for 6 months, maybe 9 months, etc. I've read that withdrawal severity and chance of PAWS is influenced by duration and dose. So, yes, i want an easier taper and i want to prevent a harsh landing when i jump. But, i don't want to extend the duration longer than I need to.
• Though my Psychiatrist is super reachable in between appointments, clearly intelligent (ivy league eduacted), prescribes meds diligently (prior psych was an airhead in this regard), his attitude toward benzodiazepines and how to prescribe/withdraw is cavalier at best, woefully undereducated and irresponsible at worst. He is also out of network, and therefore very expensive. How the hell does one go about switching psychiatrists when there is the possibility the next psych 1) won't even prescribe benzos, 2) is difficult to reach in between appointments, 3) has the same attitudes toward benzos as much of the medical community (rapid taper, belief that PAWS are very rare, etc). Also, I very much would like to avoid any perception on the part of my insurance that I am "doctor shopping." I live in NYC, surely there is an in-network doc that has heard of the Ashton Protocol and believes it has merit for those who have only been on klonopin for a few months.
• And i suppose this overarching question that i'd imagine plagues so many: am i headed in the right direction? Do i have reason to be hopeful? Losing hope at points has been the most difficult part of this process. I was primarily a happy, gainfully employed (on FMLA currently which runs out in 1 month), physically healthy guy with so much to be happy about/proud of just 4 months ago. I had my bouts with panic attacks, but they never stuck around long. My GAD was pretty well managed. I want so badly to get back to that point, and having kicked alcohol in this process, I believe I'll be in an even better position. If I can just get back to that point.

Appreciate anyone who made it through this ramble and has advice/support to provide. 

All the love-

Hagibis

I think the ups and downs just sort of come with the territory. I've had them, too. One day I'll feel great and another day I might want to kick puppies. I think, too, that it appears you've been changing the doses on several medications at the same time, and that makes it really hard to tell which one is doing what.

I think staying with the psychiatrist that is willing to help you is probably a good idea. As you mentioned, it may be hard to find another one that is willing to help you and THAT can create more anxiety. 

I hope you can stabilize and then start a gradual taper. There are so many amazing people here to help you!

Jess

 

[[Ha...]]

@[Je...] @[Pa...]

Thanks so much for your replies. 

I have been able to taper from 1.25mg klonopin down to .5mg klonopin over about 2 months (not easy, had some really awful stretches), but i have hit a major wall.

It didn't hit until about 9 days into the drop from .5625mg to .50. But for the last 6 days, i have woken up feeling physically ill (which carries into the afternoon), spent most of the day crying, and believing firmly that this is it for me. I will never stabilize, i will never be able to taper down to 0, and when i do get there, i will be riddled with acute withdrawals and PAWS that i cannot possibly manage.

I seem to have the most grave risk factors of all. A fairly lengthy history (about 10 years) of panic attacks induced by alcohol withdrawal, GAD tracing back to my childhood (managed pretty darn well with 20mg Paxil for most of my life), and what i would call moderate alcohol abuse throughout my 20s (i'm now 34). I'm fully convinced i had a big gaba/glutamate issue coming into this process.

Is it normal to have horrific waves like this, at this stage of the tapering process? I feel like I only hear about people getting hit with the terrible spells when they're below .25mg or even lower. 

I fear on days like today i will eventually be a statistic. My beautiful wife will be left a widow. My family and friends will suffer. That I just won't make it through this. To be clear, I am not intending to harm myself, not in imminent danger, etc.

My hope is that this is the anxiety and klonopin talking. That this wave will pass and i will be able to continue tapering, albeit more slowly. But it's extremely hard to believe when i've been in the thick of it for 6 days.

Edited October 24, 2023 by [Ha...]

[[Je...]]

38 minutes ago, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] @[Pa...]

Thanks so much for your replies. 

I have been able to taper from 1.25mg klonopin down to .5mg klonopin over about 2 months (not easy, had some really awful stretches), but i have hit a major wall.

It didn't hit until about 9 days into the drop from .5625mg to .50. But for the last 6 days, i have woken up feeling physically ill (which carries into the afternoon), spent most of the day crying, and believing firmly that this is it for me. I will never stabilize, i will never be able to taper down to 0, and when i do get there, i will be riddled with acute withdrawals and PAWS that i cannot possibly manage.

I seem to have the most grave risk factors of all. A fairly lengthy history (about 10 years) of panic attacks induced by alcohol withdrawal, GAD tracing back to my childhood (managed pretty darn well with 20mg Paxil for most of my life), and what i would call moderate alcohol abuse throughout my 20s (i'm now 34). I'm fully convinced i had a big gaba/glutamate issue coming into this process.

Is it normal to have horrific waves like this, at this stage of the tapering process? I feel like I only hear about people getting hit with the terrible spells when they're below .25mg or even lower. 

I fear on days like today i will eventually be a statistic. My beautiful wife will be left a widow. My family and friends will suffer. That I just won't make it through this. To be clear, I am not intending to harm myself, not in imminent danger, etc.

My hope is that this is the anxiety and klonopin talking. That this wave will pass and i will be able to continue tapering, albeit more slowly. But it's extremely hard to believe when i've been in the thick of it for 6 days.

@[Ha...] Going from 1.25 mg to .50 mg in just two months is a substantial drop in a short period of time, and I don't wonder that you feel so awful. Klonopin has a long half-life and it can take time for the withdrawal symptoms to catch up with you after you cut your dose. It does pass, though it sure sucks while you're going through it. I was polydrugged for 12 years (in my history) and got off of everything in 2015 (and it was rough - lots of panic attacks and I was working out of town and unable to sleep, it was truly awful). Then I started up the clonazepam again in 2019 (2.5 mg) and it has taken me until now to get off of it but this time I'm not feeling nearly as bad as I did before, in 2015. Maybe because I'm only tapering one medication. I think that given your rapid dose reduction and the length of time that you were on the Klonopin, these feelings are not unexpected. But they DO pass! If it was me, I would stop my taper and just hold where I was until things equalized. Once you feel stable, then maybe start again but go slower.

And everybody is different with regards to when and what withdrawal symptoms hit them. You can get fabulous guidance, but it really comes down to what YOUR body is doing. And yes, that's the anxiety and klonopin talking. I've had GAD and panic attacks for years. Definitely got MUCH worse during my first taper, but now, on my second taper, I have had maybe one panic attack and manageable anxiety. There are threads here for anxiety and insomnia and all kinds of things like that with some really great insights.

The best thing I can offer, really, is to say you're not alone, and don't let your fear and anxiety drive you. Try not to worry about having grave risks and just take it a day at a time and let the symptoms come to you. Try not to anticipate them. And when you DO experience the anxiety, try to just sit with it objectively. We know panic attacks are not dangerous, but they are extremely unpleasant. And they pass. (I know, truly, how awful they are, and I got through every one of them.)

You are stronger than you think. I tell that to everyone because I believe it is true. The benzos can really twist your thinking and create this well of self-doubt and fear. 

Jess

 

[[Pa...]]

You’ve been given excellent advice by @[Je...], hold while your body catches up to all of the reductions, then I’d go slower in the future.  Rushing to get off the drug only increases the discomfort while tapering, and means much of our recovery will have to be done once off of it.  You might as well use the drug to mitigate the symptoms now because once its gone, you’re at their mercy. 

I can see the catastrophic thinking the process produces has a firm grip on you, this isn’t the end and your bride won’t have to live without you, you’re going to live happily ever after.

[[Ha...]]

@[Je...] @[Pa...]

Thanks again for these well thought out replies.

One of the hardest things about going through all of this is not having the energy or focus to find the right resources.

My sister, who is a LCSW, is encouraging me to seek inpatient (or intensive outpatient) therapy to tackle my anxiety/panic. While it was an intense bout of prolonged panic/extreme GAD that led me to klonopin in the first place, I think that was a result of alcohol induced kindling that took place over many years, exacerbating my GAD and panic to a fever point. So i don't really see how inpatient or intensive outpatient is going to help me out.

It seems like the only solution is to ride this wave and slow down my taper, which i thought i was already doing by reducing from .625 to .5625 (waited 8 days) and then reducing from .5625 to .5. My fear is what do i do if i do not stabilize at .5mg?

[[Je...]]

8 minutes ago, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] @[Pa...]

Thanks again for these well thought out replies.

One of the hardest things about going through all of this is not having the energy or focus to find the right resources.

My sister, who is a LCSW, is encouraging me to seek inpatient (or intensive outpatient) therapy to tackle my anxiety/panic. While it was an intense bout of prolonged panic/extreme GAD that led me to klonopin in the first place, I think that was a result of alcohol induced kindling that took place over many years, exacerbating my GAD and panic to a fever point. So i don't really see how inpatient or intensive outpatient is going to help me out.

It seems like the only solution is to ride this wave and slow down my taper, which i thought i was already doing by reducing from .625 to .5625 (waited 8 days) and then reducing from .5625 to .5. My fear is what do i do if i do not stabilize at .5mg?

@[Ha...] Alcohol always makes my anxiety worse. No doubt about it. I think that only waiting 8 days in between cuts is too fast for you, based on what you've written. So, yes, staying at 0.5 mg is probably the best thing right now. Don't fret about not stabilizing. Eventually, you will. It just takes time for your body to catch up and heal. And you may need to stay at 0.5 mg for a while. And that's OK. If you look at my taper, there were VERY long periods where I held. 

There are lots of strategies for dealing with anxiety, too. I am fortunate that I've had a lot of support to help me through this. I have a psychologist who helps me deal with my anxiety, a palliative care doctor who has helped me with my taper, and a biofeedback coach. I've had massage and acupuncture, and I meditate every morning. I also use aromatherapy, stretching, and qigong, as well as going for walks outside in the sunshine. There, of course, is no one magic bullet, but when you add them all together over time, they really, really help.

Don't worry about the "what ifs". Try to focus on today. I know it's hard. I do. Sending you Posivibes! You really are stronger than you think!

Jess

[[Ha...]]

On 24/10/2023 at 17:06, [[J...] said:

@[Ha...] Alcohol always makes my anxiety worse. No doubt about it. I think that only waiting 8 days in between cuts is too fast for you, based on what you've written. So, yes, staying at 0.5 mg is probably the best thing right now. Don't fret about not stabilizing. Eventually, you will. It just takes time for your body to catch up and heal. And you may need to stay at 0.5 mg for a while. And that's OK. If you look at my taper, there were VERY long periods where I held. 

There are lots of strategies for dealing with anxiety, too. I am fortunate that I've had a lot of support to help me through this. I have a psychologist who helps me deal with my anxiety, a palliative care doctor who has helped me with my taper, and a biofeedback coach. I've had massage and acupuncture, and I meditate every morning. I also use aromatherapy, stretching, and qigong, as well as going for walks outside in the sunshine. There, of course, is no one magic bullet, but when you add them all together over time, they really, really help.

Don't worry about the "what ifs". Try to focus on today. I know it's hard. I do. Sending you Posivibes! You really are stronger than you think!

Jess

@[Je...] One thing i don't quite understand is how people tend to stabilize as they taper. If our tolerance do these medications increases over time, requiring more to elicit the same anxiolytic effect, how is it that we manage to reach stability as the dose decreases? I have found a couple of times (drop to .75, drop to .625) that i managed to stabilize after some truly hellacious days, but i worry that there is a limit. And i'm worried that i have hit that limit at .5mg. Like, my mind and body can no longer find equilibrium at .5mg or less.

Is this a common fear people have when they kind of hit a wall? And is it a general rule that the wall is eventually broken down as we stay put at a particular dose?

Edited October 25, 2023 by [Ha...]

[[Pa...]]

I didn’t taper @[Ha...], but I’ve watched a lot of members do it and have witnessed the fear you’re expressing.  Most have to slow their taper down but they do continue to stabilize between reductions, I don’t see a wall but a need to make adjustments as you get lower in dose.  

I may be missing your point though. 

[[Je...]]

5 hours ago, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] One thing i don't quite understand is how people tend to stabilize as they taper. If our tolerance do these medications increases over time, requiring more to elicit the same anxiolytic effect, how is it that we manage to reach stability as the dose decreases? I have found a couple of times (drop to .75, drop to .625) that i managed to stabilize after some truly hellacious days, but i worry that there is a limit. And i'm worried that i have hit that limit at .5mg. Like, my mind and body can no longer find equilibrium at .5mg or less.

Is this a common fear people have when they kind of hit a wall? And is it a general rule that the wall is eventually broken down as we stay put at a particular dose?

@[Ha...] That's a good question. And I think you almost answered your own question. The thing is there is a difference between tolerance and stability. Imagine you have insomnia and then start taking klonopin to help you sleep. When you develop tolerance, the same dose is no longer effective for helping you sleep. You've adapted to that dose. We taper because stopping the klonopin cold turkey can cause serious problems - in some cases seizures and worse. So, we decrease our dose gradually, and as we slowly taper our brains start to recover from the original dose. If we go too quickly, the withdrawal symptoms can become severe again. Stabilizing, then, is holding our taper and giving our brains, our nervous system, a chance to kind of catch up with our reduction in medication. Of course, at this point the medication is no longer helping us to sleep - and it wasn't when we reached tolerance anyway. I hope that sort of makes sense?

Yes, I think there is all kinds of fear with tapering and finding stability, but if you think about it, as you decrease your dose slowly enough that your nervous system can adapt as you go, then as your dose gets smaller and smaller, your nervous system should, eventually, be doing better. Everyone is different so the dose reductions and holding times will be different (we have to listen to our bodies), but I believe that holding a dose for an extended period of time can help your body adjust and then you can start to taper again.  I don't think you should worry about having a limit, but rather just give your body time to adjust. It really just takes time. And it's OK to hold for a long time if you need to do that. I hope this makes some kind of sense, but if it doesn't, please let me know and I'll take another shot at it!

I know this is a very scary thing to do, and the feelings - physical and mental and emotional - can also be very frightening, but you can do it. Try not to anticipate how you might feel, but rather focus on how you do feel. 

Jess

[[Ha...]]

@[Je...] @[Pa...]

Thank you so much for these responses. Can't tell you how much it means to hear you kind words + wisdom. 

Indeed, it's a mindbendingly scary process, and only compounded by my GAD and Panic Disorder (which led me to klonopin to begin with!).

I'm at about 16-17 days at this .5mg dose. First 8-9 days were OK, the last week has been hell on earth.

@[Je...] I think this advice is fantastic, "Try not to anticipate how you might feel, but rather focus on how you do feel." I have a tendency to pour gasoline on the fire when i'm in the grips of a major depressive/anxious episode. The belief that I will never make it through this and reclaim my old life (which is less than 4 months in the past) consumes me. And intrusive thoughts about having only two options should I not eventually get better: a lifetime on klonopin or not being able to carry on at all.

I'm meeting with a new psychiatrist tomorrow, one who is listed as an approved tapering psychiatrist by the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition. He brought up the Ashton Manual in our phone conversation and seemed to totally "get it." My current psych i've been seeing has been aggressive and overconfident during the benzo tapering process, hence my rapid timeline especially early in the taper. Always a little scary to switch psychiatrists in the middle of a crisis, but I'm hopeful i'm making the right move.

 

 

[[Je...]]

6 minutes ago, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] @[Pa...]

Thank you so much for these responses. Can't tell you how much it means to hear you kind words + wisdom. 

Indeed, it's a mindbendingly scary process, and only compounded by my GAD and Panic Disorder (which led me to klonopin to begin with!).

I'm at about 16-17 days at this .5mg dose. First 8-9 days were OK, the last week has been hell on earth.

@[Je...] I think this advice is fantastic, "Try not to anticipate how you might feel, but rather focus on how you do feel." I have a tendency to pour gasoline on the fire when i'm in the grips of a major depressive/anxious episode. The belief that I will never make it through this and reclaim my old life (which is less than 4 months in the past) consumes me. And intrusive thoughts about having only two options should I not eventually get better: a lifetime on klonopin or not being able to carry on at all.

I'm meeting with a new psychiatrist tomorrow, one who is listed as an approved tapering psychiatrist by the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition. He brought up the Ashton Manual in our phone conversation and seemed to totally "get it." My current psych i've been seeing has been aggressive and overconfident during the benzo tapering process, hence my rapid timeline especially early in the taper. Always a little scary to switch psychiatrists in the middle of a crisis, but I'm hopeful i'm making the right move.

@[Ha...] I'm so glad you'll be meeting an approved tapering psychiatrist! I should think that would be very helpful! I've had a lovely psychologist help me with my own anxiety issues. He encouraged me to sit with my anxiety without labeling it - you know, "good" or "bad" - but rather to objectify the feeling and then let is pass through me. It was hard at first, but it got much easier. Now I feel I have lots of tools in the toolbox for coping with anxiety. (And he was quite pleased when I told him TODAY that I am off of the klonopin!)

It has to be frustrating and frightening to be over two weeks at the 0.5 mg dose and feeling like your withdrawal symptoms are getting worse. We have waves and windows: waves where we feel symptoms, and windows when we feel good. Something I forgot to mention, though, is that the healing isn't necessarily linear. As our nervous systems recover, it seems one thing improves, but something else may go a bit awry, and then it comes back into balance and something else may feel off. It's part of the process.

Something else for me, personally, is that when someone asked about a particular withdrawal symptom, I'd do a body check right then and there and see if I was feeling that symptom. When I did this the first time I tapered in 2015, I would start to create anxiety just by reading about and scanning myself - or imaging how that symptom felt if I had it before.  What has helped me is noting what symptoms I DO have - I keep a journal - and then just looking at my list - objectively - rather than doing a body scan in the moment. I hope I'm explaining this ... For me, sometimes reading about others' symptoms was triggering, but when I had the list without external influence, I was able to be more objective ... I guess what I'm trying to say is try not to make others' withdrawal symptoms your own. 

I'm sorry, I'm rambling a bit! Four months can feel like a long time. Truly. But you CAN do this. I hope you have a good visit with your new psychiatrist tomorrow. A caring and understanding partner in your treatment can make a world of difference!

Jess

[[Ha...]]

@[Je...] No apologies for the rambling, it's super helpful to be able to discuss this!

Congrats by the way on being able to announce to your therapist that you're off klonopin! Is this just as of today that you've made the jump?

Please keep me posted on your progress. I hope it's easier for you than the taper ever was!

While it's so helpful to connect with people on here and learn, it can also be extremely triggering. Seems most estimates put PAWS at 10-15%. You would think from reading this website that it's closer to 100%, and can make it feel like I will 100% have many months or years of hell to suffer through in order to feel OK again.

Edited October 26, 2023 by [Ha...]

[[Je...]]

4 minutes ago, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] No apologies for the rambling, it's super helpful to be able to discuss this!

Congrats by the way on being able to announce to your therapist that you're off klonopin! Is this just as of today that you've made the jump?

Please keep me posted on your progress. I hope it's easier for you than the taper ever was!

While it's so helpful to connect with people on here and learn, it can also be extremely triggering. Seems most estimates put PAWS at 10-15%. You would think from reading this website that it's closer to 100%, and can make it feel like I will 100% have many months or years of hell to suffer through in order to feel OK again.

@[Ha...] Thank you! It felt so great to tell my therapist! I told my palliative care doctor, too. She has been managing my medication for me and was very supportive of my tapering plan, letting me go at my own pace. I was very fortunate. I made my jump on Sunday, so I'm on day three klonopin free (hey, that rhymes) today! Woot!

It can absolutely be triggering! We have to remember that the people that get off these meds without issue just won't be here, so, of course, things look worse. Don't think you'll have months or years to suffer through. Maybe think, "It's hard, and I may experience some uncomfortable side effects, but I can do this." I like to think things like "this time next month" or "this time next YEAR" I'll be done and recovering! 

Meanwhile, here is a picture of a chicken photobombing my shot. Chickens make me smile.

Jess

[[Ha...]]

@[Je...] Congrats! Mind my asking how long you were on/tapered for? Any withdrawal effects yet?

Seems you're in good spirits and obviously have your wits about you! Hope that persists and you feel better and better and better!

I love this picture. While chickens may not be the most intelligent of species, they are funny and adorable in an odd kind of way. Like cute little dinosaurs.

[[Je...]]

Just now, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] Congrats! Mind my asking how long you were on/tapered for? Any withdrawal effects yet?

Seems you're in good spirits and obviously have your wits about you! Hope that persists and you feel better and better and better!

I love this picture. While chickens may not be the most intelligent of species, they are funny and adorable in an odd kind of way. Like cute little dinosaurs.

@[Ha...] They are rather adorable, aren't they? 

Yes, I actually am in pretty good spirits. I feel like I've been set free. No more splitting pills or worrying about running out or forgetting them when I travel (well, OK, that wouldn't happen, but it still creates anxiety). I'm hoping I feel better and better, too! Thank you! I'm not experiencing any intolerable effects right now. I've had some insomnia, but that is not unexpected. A bit of a headache, but that could be from anything. And tinnitus. But I think that the tinnitus is just me. My father has it, too, and he's never had a benzo. I notice it will get louder sometimes, but usually I just ignore it and am not even aware of it unless I think about it. (Ha! So don't think about it!)

I started tapering in January of 2021 BUT I did not do any kind of steady taper. So don't let that timeframe scare you. I started at 2.5 mg per day. For the first two years (2021 and 2022) my taper was rather sporadic. I never went back UP on my dose, but going down was slow with long holds. This year I decided to finish, so my taper became more regular. If you go to my profile and look at my history, you can see all my doses and cuts as well as my previous taper in 2015. 

Jess

 

[[Ha...]]

@[Je...] That is awesome to hear that you're in good spirits! So so deserved. Must feel incredible.

If you don't mind my asking, what led you to being prescribed klonopin to begin with? 

Since it was and episode of extreme panic/GAD that led me to klonopin, i'm especially scared that i will have an unusual amount of difficulty tapering off entirely. And when i do, i will be met with the same demon that necessitated the klonopin to begin with.

I met with my psych today and his advice was to first taper the medications that have been added/increased during this process. Namely, my SSRI and Seroquel. Reason being that they are confounding variables, making it more difficult to isolate and identify benzo withdrawal symptoms, and therefore making it difficult to know if we're tapering too quickly. So, i will have to work on tapering those for some time, and then the plan is to switch me over to Valium. It feels like a mountain to climb, but this psychiatrist is DEFINITELY an expert when it comes to benzo tapering. 

 

[[Je...]]

17 hours ago, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] That is awesome to hear that you're in good spirits! So so deserved. Must feel incredible.

If you don't mind my asking, what led you to being prescribed klonopin to begin with? 

Since it was and episode of extreme panic/GAD that led me to klonopin, i'm especially scared that i will have an unusual amount of difficulty tapering off entirely. And when i do, i will be met with the same demon that necessitated the klonopin to begin with.

I met with my psych today and his advice was to first taper the medications that have been added/increased during this process. Namely, my SSRI and Seroquel. Reason being that they are confounding variables, making it more difficult to isolate and identify benzo withdrawal symptoms, and therefore making it difficult to know if we're tapering too quickly. So, i will have to work on tapering those for some time, and then the plan is to switch me over to Valium. It feels like a mountain to climb, but this psychiatrist is DEFINITELY an expert when it comes to benzo tapering. 

@[Ha...] I am SO glad you found a psychiatrist who can help you! It really sounds like he knows what he is doing!

I don't mind you asking at all. I was prescribed klonopin, xanax, celexa, and bupropion, for GAD and Panic Disorder! 

I completely understand the fear of the panic attacks and anxiety coming back after tapering, and honestly, that could happen, but try not to anticipate that it will happen. After my taper in 2015 I did still have panic attacks and anxiety, but during THIS taper I think I've had one, maybe two panic attacks, and my anxiety has been pretty well-controlled with meditation, biofeedback, exercise, and other relaxation and breathing techniques. I have Xanax for panic attacks, but in the last year I think I've taken it maybe twice? I wish I'd kept track of that. (I dunno, it might be that it's more like a security blanket at this point - just knowing it's "there" if I "need" it actually helps me to NOT need it.) 

I know it seems like a mountain, but you will get through it and then wonder where the time has gone! I can hardly believe I am already on Day 5 since my jump. And I slept decently last night, which is huge!

Jess 

[[Ha...]]

@[Je...] I’m so thrilled to hear you’re on day 5 and doing so well. May the next week be smooth sailing!

Did you approach this taper differently than your last? Also - do you think using Xanax sparingly post taper is possibly what led you to going back on benzos for an extended period of time?

And did you reach points in the taper where you felt like you could not hold? I am on day 19 at .5mg and the last 10 days have been unmitigated hell. It feels like I just won’t stabilize. The idea that I have been too kindled by alcohol induced panic attacks in the past to make it through a successful klonopin withdrawal looms large. I had what I would call a really solid day just under two weeks ago - but it feels like it was eons ago. 
 

I don’t know how people manage to endure so much pain and just continue on. There are some amazingly strong people on this forum, yourself included!

[[Ha...]]

On 25/10/2023 at 18:57, [[P...] said:

I didn’t taper @[Ha...], but I’ve watched a lot of members do it and have witnessed the fear you’re expressing.  Most have to slow their taper down but they do continue to stabilize between reductions, I don’t see a wall but a need to make adjustments as you get lower in dose.  

I may be missing your point though. 

@[Pa...] realizing I didn’t respond to your message! Not missing my point at all. I have been holding at .5mg for 19 days. The first 9-10 days weren’t too bad, every day since has been a massive struggle. I’ve been consumed with the most negative terrible thoughts, super depressed and anxious, crying fits, you name it. 

Hoping this is not completely abnormal and that stabilization at this dose is still possible if I hold on and stay positive. I don’t know how people do it. 

My psych, who specializes in benzo tapering, believes I am a case where an updose would not be I’ll advised (he acknowledged in most cases it would be), given that I have been on klonopin for under 4 months and spent much of that time between .5mg and 1mg. He said even going up to .75mg would not harm odds of long term success. But he also respects my decision if I want to keep trying to hold. Difficult decision for sure. For now, I am holding on for dear life.

[[Je...]]

11 minutes ago, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] I’m so thrilled to hear you’re on day 5 and doing so well. May the next week be smooth sailing!

Did you approach this taper differently than your last? Also - do you think using Xanax sparingly post taper is possibly what led you to going back on benzos for an extended period of time?

And did you reach points in the taper where you felt like you could not hold? I am on day 19 at .5mg and the last 10 days have been unmitigated hell. It feels like I just won’t stabilize. The idea that I have been too kindled by alcohol induced panic attacks in the past to make it through a successful klonopin withdrawal looms large. I had what I would call a really solid day just under two weeks ago - but it feels like it was eons ago. 
 

I don’t know how people manage to endure so much pain and just continue on. There are some amazingly strong people on this forum, yourself included!

@[Ha...] Thank you! I hope next week will be smoother, too! For BOTH of us!

No, I'd say my overall approach to my taper this time wasn't really different, but I was only tapering one drug instead of three (plus the Xanax), so I'm sure that helped.  I started my taper this time from a higher dose, which intuitively would make one think it would be harder, but it wasn't! (In 2015 I tapered from 0.25 mg twice a day and this time I started at 2.5 mg per day.) I'm kind of surprised when I look at it all, actually. But I did take a long time with some extended holds, too. 

I went back on klonopin after three years off because I got cancer and was having a hard time coping with everything. Now I'm past the shock and trying to embrace my "new normal". I have lots of support and resources for dealing with it, so I felt it was time to get off of the benzo. 

I know it's hard but try not to worry about potentially being kindled by your alcohol use and previous panic attacks. Just let your symptoms come without trying to anticipate them. You may NOT have issues. 

I think one of the worst things we can do for ourselves is to worry about a bunch of symptoms that might happen. I mean, I've been guilty about that with my cancer crap, you know? Looking at stuff about prognosis and all the stuff that can go wrong and side effects of meds and all that and MOST of it never happens or isn't as severe when it does. All that worrying is just a waste of energy that could be directed in a more positive direction.

19 days, in the grand scheme of things, isn't a long time for a hold. Especially if you're trying to stabilize. I've done months - I think there have been years a couple of times - it's not a race. You know what really helped me - and some people love these and others not so much - but I used spreadsheets. I just put together a couple of spreadsheets calculating the half-life of Klonopin and used one for 18 hours and one for 50 hours (that is the general range) and then when I made a cut, I could look ahead and see what the theoretical numbers were doing. Then I could correlate my symptoms with the levels of klonopin. It's not perfect, but it helped me to visualize where I was. (Does that make sense?) The sheets also gave me a sense of control over what was going on.

What do you think you might be able to do to make your hold more bearable? Are there things you like to do that you can still do and look forward to? Favorite music? Games? Shows? Other interests? Getting outside? (That can help a LOT.)

 

[[Ha...]]

On 27/10/2023 at 18:23, [[J...] said:

@[Ha...] Thank you! I hope next week will be smoother, too! For BOTH of us!

No, I'd say my overall approach to my taper this time wasn't really different, but I was only tapering one drug instead of three (plus the Xanax), so I'm sure that helped.  I started my taper this time from a higher dose, which intuitively would make one think it would be harder, but it wasn't! (In 2015 I tapered from 0.25 mg twice a day and this time I started at 2.5 mg per day.) I'm kind of surprised when I look at it all, actually. But I did take a long time with some extended holds, too. 

I went back on klonopin after three years off because I got cancer and was having a hard time coping with everything. Now I'm past the shock and trying to embrace my "new normal". I have lots of support and resources for dealing with it, so I felt it was time to get off of the benzo. 

I know it's hard but try not to worry about potentially being kindled by your alcohol use and previous panic attacks. Just let your symptoms come without trying to anticipate them. You may NOT have issues. 

I think one of the worst things we can do for ourselves is to worry about a bunch of symptoms that might happen. I mean, I've been guilty about that with my cancer crap, you know? Looking at stuff about prognosis and all the stuff that can go wrong and side effects of meds and all that and MOST of it never happens or isn't as severe when it does. All that worrying is just a waste of energy that could be directed in a more positive direction.

19 days, in the grand scheme of things, isn't a long time for a hold. Especially if you're trying to stabilize. I've done months - I think there have been years a couple of times - it's not a race. You know what really helped me - and some people love these and others not so much - but I used spreadsheets. I just put together a couple of spreadsheets calculating the half-life of Klonopin and used one for 18 hours and one for 50 hours (that is the general range) and then when I made a cut, I could look ahead and see what the theoretical numbers were doing. Then I could correlate my symptoms with the levels of klonopin. It's not perfect, but it helped me to visualize where I was. (Does that make sense?) The sheets also gave me a sense of control over what was going on.

What do you think you might be able to do to make your hold more bearable? Are there things you like to do that you can still do and look forward to? Favorite music? Games? Shows? Other interests? Getting outside? (That can help a LOT.)

@[Je...] First of all, apologies for the delayed reply! I've been so appreciative of how quickly you've been getting back to me.

I'm surprised to hear that tapering wasn't tougher for you the 2nd time around. I hear so much about how each time you reinstate and taper it gets harder. That is reassuring to hear.

I'm so sorry to hear about the cancer diagnosis, but it sounds like you have an incredibly positive attitude about things. It takes serious strength to taper klonopin even during the best of circumstances. Finding the strength and peace of mind to taper klonopin while dealing with cancer is badass beyond belief.

I'm still holding, now at day 22. Saturday was bearable (ish), yesterday was awful, and today is bearable (ish). I still don't feel nearly as stable/confident as i did when i was at .56 and .625.

Your spreadsheet makes perfect sense. What i've found so far is that the first signs of withdrawal after a cut are highly variable for me in terms of time frame. I felt okayish (like between a 4 and 6 out of 10) for the first 9 days of my most recent cut. And then for the next 10 days or so i felt completely awful. We're talking like, 2-3 out of 10. In some previous cuts, it was day 5 to day 10 that were the most brutal. 

When I have been in the depths of the worst stretches of this hold, there is nothing i can do to take my mind off the suffering. The analogy i keep using is something like this, "if you're on fire, no amount of breathing exercises or distractions will ease the pain." And when i'm really in the pit like i have been for much of the past two weeks, the anxiety and depression are just too overwhelming to be combatted. I just sit, cry uncontrollably, and try to think about how i can possibly get out of the hell i've found myself in. 

So, i continue on, trying to fully stabilize at .5mg. I don't have a meeting with the new psych for two more weeks as he is out of town. My marching orders in the interim are to try and taper the Seroquel a bit. As Seroquel in lower doses is an anxiolytic/sleep aid, I am definitely worried about heightened anxiety/insomnia as i dial that back. Then I will need to get to work on tapering the Paxil (eeeek), and then the plan is likely to do some sort of step wise crossover to Valium. So, assuming nothing goes wrong with the seroquel and paxil taper, and i respond well enough to the Valium (far from a guarantee, have heard some rough stories), only then will i finally resume my benzo tapering. I feel pretty defeated by the timeline of all this. Not too mention, my FMLA from work ends in just under 3 weeks. 

I sometimes wish i was living 50-100 years in the future, at which point i'm sure the science and technology relating to mental illnesses, addictions, etc, will make modern day best practices for things like benzo tapering seem shockingly Draconian! I'd imagine you've had similar thoughts in your taper and during your cancer diagnosis.

I am inspired to see you out taking pictures of chickens, appreciating the little things in life. Current situation aside, it doesn't take much to make me happy. I learned that during Covid when life sorta came to a hault. Things like animals, snowfalls and thunderstorms, good food, and the great people i have in my life are more than enough. I am dying for the chance to embrace it all again.