Today is a tough day! I am up dosing my diazepam. I feel like a failure.

[[Zi...]]

Hello fellow BenzoBuddies. I am not sure if this is the right section to post. I have been really struggling for the last few months at my current dosage. It has been so bad that I feel like I can focus, function, sleep or do much other than worry and be anxious all day! 

I saw my doctor with my mom as I am usually too anxious to do much without someone with me. The doctor deep down thinks I should up dose my diazepam. I guess even when I was on high dose of clonazepam the anxiety was still there only nowhere near as bad as it is now. The doc reassured me that if I can get stabile on the higher dose and can get some sleep and some sort of normalness we can then worry about tapering in the future. I feel like I am failing but she this is not a failure and only a setback. 

Okay so my current plan is to still take the fluoxetine as I have only been on it for 6 days, up dose diazepam and have to continue with the baclofen. 

Anyone else ever have to up dose this much to get stabile? I honestly hope it helps. Is there a chance it won't? I worry so much. I wish I wasn't the way I am! 

I just need some more reassurance that I am doing a wise thing. 

I will take 10mg diazepam tonight. I feel like I have no other options but to go back up! 

[[Es...]]

@[Zi...]

Do you measure your worth as a human being by the amount of diazepam pdoc tells you to take?

Why do you feel like a failure? Do you expect acceptance from this Community, even though you take psych meds? Yes, the rules written by @[Co...] accept taking psych meds, but certain members are extremely orthodox. Against pdocs and psych meds.

They don't even admit there is such a thing as a psychiatric diagnosis. Oh, DSM was probably written by Lucifer.

Have you seen the toxicology charts of any  super duper "clean" person's with an impressive ticker here? Or are you just relying on their WORDS?

Are you apologizing for trying to save your life with the help of a medical professional?

Look, I'm very tired. I'll get back to you tomorrow. Don't expect acceptance from this Community. I've been here since 2015 and I have met very few people whom I like and whom I'm trying to trust.

It's in human nature to lie. The less you say in public about how you feel, the better. Try to be selective when it comes to people. There is not a single medical professional here. Only peer support by laymen, mostly opposed to psychiatry. I've really been wondering about the word "support" lately. 

I had a tough day, need to go to sleep.

Don't base your self-respect on the acceptance from others, especially here. Fluoxetine is a good AD and it will help you.

Idk how long I will last here, but will be trying to help you as long as I can.

Take care

Paula

[[Be...]]

Hi Zippo,

The recommendation from the Ashton manual and all those who manage benzo discontinuation/withdrawal all strongly recommend not up-dosing. If you are struggling at your current dose, then stay there until you feel stable. Do not increase or decrease. The objective is to move toward discontinuance. if you increase your dose, you are going in the wrong direction. It is the drug that is causing your current state, so adding more of the drug will serve to worsen it (familiarize yourself w/ the actions and side effects of benzos. What you are describing are the drug's SE!)  Adding yet another drug (fluoxetine) on top of that drug is adding fuel to a burning fire. Fluoxetine (Prozac) potentiates the action of benzos, i.e., it will increase its effects, making you feel worse now and when you lower your dose, partly because of they compete for the enzymes that metabolize them, see Drug Interaction Report: clonazepam, fluoxetine (drugs.com).

I question your doctor's knowledge of psychopharmacology. Consider consulting a psychiatrist w/ a strong background in psychiatric drugs and benzo tapering.

I wish you good luck and relief form your symptoms!

 

[[je...]]

15 minutes ago, [[B...] said:

Hi Zippo,

The recommendation from the Ashton manual and all those who manage benzo discontinuation/withdrawal all strongly recommend not up-dosing. If you are struggling at your current dose, then stay there until you feel stable. Do not increase or decrease. The objective is to move toward discontinuance. if you increase your dose, you are going in the wrong direction. It is the drug that is causing your current state, so adding more of the drug will serve to worsen it (familiarize yourself w/ the actions and side effects of benzos. What you are describing are the drug's SE!)  Adding yet another drug (fluoxetine) on top of that drug is adding fuel to a burning fire. Fluoxetine (Prozac) potentiates the action of benzos, i.e., it will increase its effects, making you feel worse now and when you lower your dose, partly because of they compete for the enzymes that metabolize them, see Drug Interaction Report: clonazepam, fluoxetine (drugs.com).

I question your doctor's knowledge of psychopharmacology. Consider consulting a psychiatrist w/ a strong background in psychiatric drugs and benzo tapering.

I wish you good luck and relief form your symptoms!

Hi @[Be...], thank you so much for offering support to @[Zi...]. We all need as much input as we can during this process. I just want to request that you phrase your recommendations as suggestions rather than instructions. We try to avoid being prescriptive at BenzoBuddies:

Please adopt a non-prescriptive writing style. Relating your experiences, stating options, or posting suggestions of what other members might do are all welcome. However, advising members of what they should or must do is against the ethos of the BenzoBuddies Community. 

You can find the full Guidelines listed here.

[[Zi...]]

27 minutes ago, [[B...] said:

Hi Zippo,

The recommendation from the Ashton manual and all those who manage benzo discontinuation/withdrawal all strongly recommend not up-dosing. If you are struggling at your current dose, then stay there until you feel stable. Do not increase or decrease. The objective is to move toward discontinuance. if you increase your dose, you are going in the wrong direction. It is the drug that is causing your current state, so adding more of the drug will serve to worsen it (familiarize yourself w/ the actions and side effects of benzos. What you are describing are the drug's SE!)  Adding yet another drug (fluoxetine) on top of that drug is adding fuel to a burning fire. Fluoxetine (Prozac) potentiates the action of benzos, i.e., it will increase its effects, making you feel worse now and when you lower your dose, partly because of they compete for the enzymes that metabolize them, see Drug Interaction Report: clonazepam, fluoxetine (drugs.com).

I question your doctor's knowledge of psychopharmacology. Consider consulting a psychiatrist w/ a strong background in psychiatric drugs and benzo tapering.

I wish you good luck and relief form your symptoms!

@[Be...]I have been struggling at my current dose for months now and it is not improving at all. I have had many intrusive thoughts and am depressed. That is why my doctor wants me to try the fluoxetine. It has increased my anxiety but I also have only been on it for 6 days. 

I just want to be stabile and function. Right now I hardly want to leave my house because of the anxiety, insomnia and fatigue. 

 

[[Sw...]]

@[Zi...]

 

what are the symptoms you're dealing with that make you want to updose?

i have been where you are. And I had to reinstate after two weeks of a CT. I've been an on and off long time user and I understand feeling like a failure when you have high expectations of yourself.

The truth is we don't have the ability to predict your outcome. You could do better updosing, or worse. And I think the fear of not knowing is what really makes this game of chess so vicious. 

[[Sw...]]

@[Zi...]

have you tried any other method of handling your anxiety?

diet, exercise, deep breathing, prayer, talk therapy, trauma release (therapy in a nutshell on youtube is a great resource)

[[Be...]]

Zippo, that is so sad. I really suggest a second opinion so you can get more options. Again, good luck.

[[Zi...]]

2 minutes ago, [[S...] said:

@[Zi...]

have you tried any other method of handling your anxiety?

diet, exercise, deep breathing, prayer, talk therapy, trauma release (therapy in a nutshell on youtube is a great resource)

I have not done much else for the anxiety. I have been trying to get outside for walks. I don't know how to try other therapies. What is trauma release? I live in a very small town and we have very little resources for health here. I am on disability so it is very tough to do much as my income is so low.

I am just overwhelmed and feeling like an up dose is all I can do. 

[[Sw...]]

@[Zi...]

are you male or female? just curious

do you take any illegal substances or drink? no judgement i am an ex addict

trauma is something we experience in our lives and it affects our brain and our bodies ability to heal.

do you believe you have ever experienced any traumas?

would you be willing to talk to a therapist?

if you can't afford one you can learn a lot on youtube about how to calm the nervous system down and how to calm your body down and release tarauma

when trauma gets stuck in the body it keeps firing the same negative neurons in the brain

sometimes to overcome these anxieties and depression we need to rewire our brain

youtube things on rewiring the brain, healing trauma in the body, rewiring the brain from anxiety, deep breathing and meditation

if you do updose and get stable then use all your time while stable to practice every day new ways to cope and you will have a better time as you taper back down if the science is accurate, as you will be healing your brain by working on new techniques to help you deal with emotional/mental un-wellness

or try to practice now deep breathing and don't updose. maybe you just need a new way of firing and wiring in the brain... maybe this doesnt make sense to you but look up on youtube what i am saying and become educated if you like 

I know its hard i have suffered a lot too but man i am ready to stop suffering FINALLY but that does mean it will take work on my part dealing with my thoughts, emotions, trauma, and body response to triggers 

 

 

[[Be...]]

Walking is free and it is so therapeutic, so is yoga or even simple stretching and mild calisthenics. You can find tons of videos on Youtube. They will all relieve anxiety and muscle tension by releasing natural dopamine. They also give you a sense of control to counter the depression and anxiety that strip us of confidence.

Youtube also has deep breathing exercises, which I found helpful.

There are apps that you can download, some have free videos. For example, Dare  or Calm. Both were recommended by posters on this board, and I use the free videos.

We have to work for and fight for our healing and restoration of balance that exists within our bodies. Our bodies have remarkable reserves and are resilient. All that we need is within ourselves; not outside. Trust that you are healing and tell yourself positive thoughts. 

[[An...]]

Hi @[Zi...]

 

You said you were updosing back to 10 mgs. Where were you at before updosing? Is the 10 mgs helping you or too early to tell?

[[Zi...]]

50 minutes ago, [[A...] said:

Hi @[Zi...]

You said you were updosing back to 10 mgs. Where were you at before updosing? Is the 10 mgs helping you or too early to tell?

I forgot to say what my previous doses were.

If you read my profile and History you can see my taper.

I was taking 4mg morning and 8mg evening. That was just in the last week with no improvements. Before that I was down to 3mg morning and 8mg evening. The current plan to see if I can stabilize will be 10mg morning and 10mg evening. I was at this dose back in April of this year. I think I had way too rapid of a taper and my brain just can't handle it right now. 

I will see my doctor again in 1 week but she really thinks going up is the answer for me. She has been my family doc for the last 10 years or so. I trust her.

[[Co...]]

7 hours ago, [[E...] said:

Why do you feel like a failure? Do you expect acceptance from this Community, even though you take psych meds? Yes, the rules written by @[Co...] allow taking psych meds, but certain members are extremely orthodox. Against pdocs and psych meds.

Hi @[Es...] and all,

I thought it worth posting some clarifying comments on this matter. It is more than merely 'allowing' the taking of psych meds. The decision to take any medication is properly undertaken by the individual in consultation with their doctor and psychiatrist. So, we do not just allow, but we accept that some, even many members (will need to) take psychiatric medications. We take no view and make judgement about their use by members. And yes, this even extends to the use of benzodiazepines (and z-drugs). Just because benzodiazepines have generally caused our members problems, and are generally poor long-term treatments for anxiety and insomnia, the decision to quit (or take) benzos remains for the individual to determine. And they surely have some very good uses too (emergency trauma, very short term use in extreme insomnia and anxiety, status epilepticus, seizure disorders (especially when nothing else is effective), etc.

 

[[Es...]]

@[Co...]

Edited, replaced "allow" by "accept". I was very tired, sorry, emotional after a long day. And it triggered me hugely that the new member cared so much about the BB Community's opinion. I was like this eight years back and nothing good came out of it.

I have met so many different individuals here. And while I respect the differences, I don't have the obligation to like and admire everyone that claims themselves "clean".

I prefer to see the forest for the trees. The BB Community has helped me in my recovery journey, I wouldn't be here otherwise. At least so far. But I have an impression that being off psych meds and not having dual diagnosis accidentally creates some kind of hierarchy here. For some individuals?

There are people who like to feel superior to others. It stems from a deep rooted unconscious inferiority complex. Besides, I strongly dislike all extremes.

Humility, so common in Eastern culture, is almost inexistent in the Western culture. I only learnt about it when I joined the AA movement.

Also "radical honesty" is quite difficult to practice on the internet. These are the limitations of the online world.

Paula

[[An...]]

On 07/09/2023 at 21:55, [[Z...] said:

I forgot to say what my previous doses were.

If you read my profile and History you can see my taper.

I was taking 4mg morning and 8mg evening. That was just in the last week with no improvements. Before that I was down to 3mg morning and 8mg evening. The current plan to see if I can stabilize will be 10mg morning and 10mg evening. I was at this dose back in April of this year. I think I had way too rapid of a taper and my brain just can't handle it right now. 

I will see my doctor again in 1 week but she really thinks going up is the answer for me. She has been my family doc for the last 10 years or so. I trust her.

Thanks Zippo. I just read your history friend. I hope you can get stable on the 20 mgs of valium. SSRIs can help with depression and anxiety too but they take about 6 weeks to become fully effective so give the Prozac a fair trial. Even Ashton said that SSRIs can help some ppl who are trying to detox benzodiazepines. I am finding this personally to be true with Lexapro ATM. You may have to also experiment a little to find the best SSRI that works for you. I have a friend in real life who used zoloft to help him get off xanax after failing numerous tapers. He stayed on the SSRI for about a year and then slowly tapered off that and now he is med-free. He said the SSRI was far easier than getting off the xanax.

Ashton said>>>

Quote

 

Antidepressants. Antidepressants are the most important adjuvant drugs to consider in withdrawal. As mentioned before, depression can be a real problem in withdrawal and can sometimes be severe enough to pose a risk of suicide, though this is unusual with slow tapering. Like any other depression, the depression in withdrawal responds to antidepressant drugs and is probably caused by the same chemical changes in the brain.

It is usually possible to continue with slow benzodiazepine tapering while starting on an antidepressant, although some may prefer to halt their programme for 2-3 weeks until the antidepressant has "taken hold" (but increasing the benzodiazepine dose should be strenuously avoided). Antidepressants not only alleviate depression but also, after 2-3 weeks, have anti-anxiety effects. They are in fact a better long-term treatment than benzodiazepines for anxiety, panic and phobic disorders, and may in some cases actively help the benzodiazepine withdrawal process.

 

 

[[Zi...]]

1 minute ago, [[A...] said:

Thanks Zippo. I just read your history friend. I hope you can get stable on the 20 mgs of valium. SSRIs can help with depression and anxiety too but they take about 6 weeks to become fully effective so give the Prozac a fair trial. Even Ashton said that SSRIs can help some ppl who are trying to detox benzodiazepines. I am finding this personally to be true with Lexapro ATM. You may have to also experiment a little to find the best SSRI that works for you. I have a friend in real life who used zoloft to help him get off xanax after failing numerous tapers. He stayed on the SSRI for about a year and then slowly tapered off that and now he is med-free. He said the SSRI was far easier than getting off the xanax.

Ashton said>>>

@[An...] thanks so much for the reply. I was just going to start a new thread about up-dosing. I have been feeling like crap now with so many symptoms on top of my painful cervical dystonia. I hope the up-dose isn't too high but I am trusting my doc. 

I am taking my time getting onto the fluoxetine at 10mg for up to 4 weeks. My doc wanted me  to ramp up to 20mg after 2 weeks but I was thinking I should take the slowest route possible and try not to make all my issues worse. It seems like they just get worse anyway.

I have never use fluoxetine (Prozac) before so I will see how it goes. 

This is the hardest thing I have done in my life! Trying to get off the benzos and then all the other meds. I have lived roughly 27 years on them and don't remember life without them. I used to be more active riding my mountain bike and doing other things until the benzo really stopped helping and making my life worse. Brain fog....etc...

 

 

[[Es...]]

@[Zi...]

There will be lots of nasty sxs, I'm sorry. It's best to keep a written journal with hours when you take each dose of every med. And what happens afterwards. 

I can promise you, fluoxetine sxs fade with time. If you keep a journal on paper with dates, it will be easier to check what happened in the past. BZD depression and rebound insomnia don't.

I even went so far that I marked the meds with different colors. Colors have their symbolism. BZD was always blue. Pink and green may represent hope. Prozac gave me hope and I hung on to it, despite everything. 

You need a long-term vision. Temporary discomfort versus greater benefit in the future. 

As far as cervical dystonia goes, you may want to do an MRI. I did lots of them in the past. Then it turned out that several of my upper left cervical vertabreae pressed on my spinal cord, causing unbearable pain. And it became apparent only with changes in psych meds. I was actually tapering fluoxetine then and only experimented with tiny doses of diazepam.

I visited several neurosurgeons, who all wanted to operate on me. Some also gave me diazepam, cause it's a muscle relaxant. The pain was severe, but I only tried physical therapy. Was too scared of surgery and getting into opiates. I was scared of opioid-induced hyperalgesia all my life.

You know that psyche and soma are deeply interconnected? Whenever your body hurts, it has something to do with your psyche. I listened to this incredible book, ”Back in Control, 2nd Edition: A Surgeon"s Roadmap out of Chronic Pain" by David Hanscom MD.

Where he elucidates this connection even more. Surgery is not always the answer, cause emotional pain can well turn into physical one... But you got to be a good psychologist to detect it. And surgeons just like to cut.

I think @[An...] gave you invaluable advice. Stay strong, my Friend. Just believe in your Body's capacity to overcome anything, absolutely anything. Even with the help of pills. If you believe in yourself, you're halfay there. And suffering is an integral part of life, whether you're on psych meds or not.

Take care

Paula

[Guest [...]]

Hi @[Zi...]

Please don’t feel like a failure, because you certainly aren’t a failure. You’re not the first to updose, and you definitely won’t be the last. 

Just be careful, watchful, and go slower with your taper once you stabilise and resume. 

May I ask -

How did the decision to updose back to 20mg come about?

Just thinking an updose to between 14 -16 possibly would’ve been enough to stabilise. Given that you’ve only been back at 20mg for two days, you could most likely still drop back to 16mg to stabilise and you would feel like not all of your work has been lost. I do believe it is still an option, if you wanted to go that way. 

Generally, if we find we’ve crashed from tapering too fast, and holding on that dose was just too intense, we would usually updose to the dose where last felt reasonably comfortable. Sometimes that’s the previous dose before we last reduced, others, slightly higher. 

I’m just putting that out there as a potential option to consider, we are here to support you no matter your decision. 

[Guest [...]]

@[Zi...]

If it makes you feel any better… I crashed in my taper several weeks ago (taper too fast) and updosed from 2.5mg diazepam to 4mg to stabilise. 

[[Es...]]

@[Zi...]

So you actually haven't started the fluoxetine yet? I thought your pdoc meant the two things needed to be done at the same time? Updosing BZD as a buffer against the nasty initial fluoxetine sxs?

I mean it will be extremely difficult to start fluoxetine at this dose. 10 mg is pretty high, IMO. Though some pdocs would laugh at me.

And you will feel almost no sxs from the BZD once you start the fluoxetine. The potency of these two psych meds cannot be compared. BZD are so popular, cause they have relatively mild sxs. 

Okay, reread your initial post. So it's your 10th day on fluoxetine, if I'm correct. For some people, it gets much worse before it gets better. Up to three weeks, even a month.

Starting an SSRI is a very brutal process and not everyone has the strength to deal with it. Many people just give up due to untolerable sxs. You need to really have a long term vision, the ability to tolerate huge temporary discomfort, and the feeling that things cannot go back to the previous state. 

Keeping you in my thoughts. Hoping for the best❤️

Edited September 10, 2023 by [Es...]

[[An...]]

4 hours ago, [[W...] said:

@[Zi...]

If it makes you feel any better… I crashed in my taper several weeks ago (taper too fast) and updosed from 2.5mg diazepam to 4mg to stabilise. 

Hi @[Wi...] , 

I did something very similar that ended in total failure and a small reinstatement. This time, I am doing things exactly like you guys at BB recommend.....5-10 % reductions every 2-3 weeks. Most of us want off this stuff as fast as possible but a slow gradual taper will give you the best chance at success IMO. Hope you are having a good weekend friend.

 

[Guest [...]]

Yes @[An...]

It seems a large percentage of us only learn to employ patience as a result of suffering through our own unnecessary tapering mistakes. 😫

[[Zi...]]

12 hours ago, [[W...] said:

Hi @[Zi...]

Please don’t feel like a failure, because you certainly aren’t a failure. You’re not the first to updose, and you definitely won’t be the last. 

Just be careful, watchful, and go slower with your taper once you stabilise and resume. 

May I ask -

How did the decision to updose back to 20mg come about?

Just thinking an updose to between 14 -16 possibly would’ve been enough to stabilise. Given that you’ve only been back at 20mg for two days, you could most likely still drop back to 16mg to stabilise and you would feel like not all of your work has been lost. I do believe it is still an option, if you wanted to go that way. 

Generally, if we find we’ve crashed from tapering too fast, and holding on that dose was just too intense, we would usually updose to the dose where last felt reasonably comfortable. Sometimes that’s the previous dose before we last reduced, others, slightly higher. 

I’m just putting that out there as a potential option to consider, we are here to support you no matter your decision. 

Hello @[Wi...] My doc came up with the 20mg/day dose because she thought it would be best. I think back in April when I was last at those doses I was doing much better too. How long at 20mg/day would be too long if I did want to go back to say 16mg/day? Is a week too long? I really hope to feel better sooner than later. I do feel bad all my taper efforts will be lost but if I can function more normally it would be great. 

Right now I don't sleep much at all and have hardly any energy in the day to get out of bed and do much of anything. It isn't living. I feel I am just existing at this stage. I am thankful to have my parents here to help with everything. I can't imagine where I would be without my mother. 

I tried 14mg for a week and felt no different and that is another reason my doc thinks 20mg could be the answer. I just pray that it is. 

Thanks for your messages and support! I appreciate you guys here that are helping! It is tough! I hope you are doing okay? 

[[Zi...]]

20 hours ago, [[E...] said:

@[Zi...]

There will be lots of nasty sxs, I'm sorry. It's best to keep a written journal with hours when you take each dose of every med. And what happens afterwards. 

I can promise you, fluoxetine sxs fade with time. If you keep a journal on paper with dates, it will be easier to check what happened in the past. BZD depression and rebound insomnia don't.

I even went so far that I marked the meds with different colors. Colors have their symbolism. BZD was always blue. Pink and green may represent hope. Prozac gave me hope and I hung on to it, despite everything. 

You need a long-term vision. Temporary discomfort versus greater benefit in the future. 

As far as cervical dystonia goes, you may want to do an MRI. I did lots of them in the past. Then it turned out that several of my upper left cervical vertabreae pressed on my spinal cord, causing unbearable pain. And it became apparent only with changes in psych meds. I was actually tapering fluoxetine then and only experimented with tiny doses of diazepam.

I visited several neurosurgeons, who all wanted to operate on me. Some also gave me diazepam, cause it's a muscle relaxant. The pain was severe, but I only tried physical therapy. Was too scared of surgery and getting into opiates. I was scared of opioid-induced hyperalgesia all my life.

You know that psyche and soma are deeply interconnected? Whenever your body hurts, it has something to do with your psyche. I listened to this incredible book, ”Back in Control, 2nd Edition: A Surgeon"s Roadmap out of Chronic Pain" by David Hanscom MD.

Where he elucidates this connection even more. Surgery is not always the answer, cause emotional pain can well turn into physical one... But you got to be a good psychologist to detect it. And surgeons just like to cut.

I think @[An...] gave you invaluable advice. Stay strong, my Friend. Just believe in your Body's capacity to overcome anything, absolutely anything. Even with the help of pills. If you believe in yourself, you're halfay there. And suffering is an integral part of life, whether you're on psych meds or not.

Take care

Paula

@[Es...] thanks for the great replies! I am sorry I haven't replied much as I am really in a funky state of mind lately. 

Yes I am on like day 11 of fluoxetine and I am not sure if it is what is giving me higher anxiety and insomnia or if that is just the BZD. In Canada all we have for low dose of fluoxetine are the 10mg caps. I am going to stay at 10mg for about 4 weeks and see how I feel. Might ramp up to 20mg as that is the next smallest dose of caps here!! So are you saying that the BZD causes rebound insomnia or what causes that? I am kind of confused when you say rebound insomnia. Sorry my brain doesn't function so well lately. I am in a benzo fog I think! 

I might try the written journal but my brain has a hard time focusing to write plus I am not great at describing how I feel. I never have been. 

As for my cervical dystonia. I have had it for 28 years. I was diagnosed way back in the 1990's. I forget what year it was. It took nearly 2 years for them to figure out what was wrong with my neck and muscles. My second neurologist back then was using botox on my neck to help but it didn't fully help. He then prescribed clonazepam and baclofen together. I was on that combo until this January. The clonazepam was not helping anymore and my brain was getting foggy and memory issues. That is when I thought I should try and get off of it! I had no idea how hard this would become. 

I am so afraid now of MRI machines I would need to be put out for one. The last one I had was earlier this year for an issue with my leg and I had such bad anxiety I thought my heart was going to explode. I guess I am very claustrophobic and didn't know it.