Benzo-free for 3 Years Followed By Relapse, Additionally dealing with Ritalin and Modafini problem and hoping to quit it all soon

[[Lo...]]

 

Hey everyone,

I've registered as a new user as I couldn't remember my log-in details, but I'm not new at Benzo Buddies. Back in 2016, this forum and this community has helped me (and I'm eternally grateful for that) through some very dark times as I slowly tapered and eventually quit benzos for good - or so I thought at the time.

Yet here I am again.

After going through pure WD hell for the first 4 weeks or so, little by little, slowly, unpredictably, I got a bit better, then a bit better, then a bit better, and finally, about a year in, I could confidently say benzos and I were done. I was Benzo-free for three glorious years and I was convinced I would never touch a benzo or any Rx sleeping pill ever again under any circumstances.

Then, in 2019, I found myself in an extremely stressful situation where, due to my work, I was responsible for a team of people in a country going through civil unrest. I won't go into detail but I ended up being extremely stressed out, fatigued, and sleep deprived, and at some point, someone offered me an Ambien. I took it. I reasoned, it was just this once; it wasn't even a benzo.

Then - again due to my work - a similar situation happened within the next few months. Worse still, I was in a country where Ambien wasn't exactly sold OTC but the pharmacists weren't that strict on demanding prescriptions either. I still reasoned with myself that it was a one-off, and not a benzo, so I was fine.

Cutting the long story short, two years in, I was using zopiclone and diazepam to sleep. I'd do two nights on zopiclone, one night with no drugs, two nights on diazepam, sort of trying to rotate them - in my head, I thought I was tricking my brain not to get addicted to either, but, of course, the opposite happened.

Finally, this past year was filled with so much extreme stress and so much work that I added Modafinil and Ritalin to my routine. I'd take 2 zopiclone to sleep, then take either Modafinil or Ritalin in the morning/throughout the day so I could function and work, then pass out for the night with the help of a couple diazepam.

I still tried to rationalize it: I just needed to get through a certain period with work, and once the project was over, I'd cut back on everything, learn mindfulness meditation and live happily every after.

Yeah.

I'm finally ready to face the music. I still have tons of high-stress work on my plate, I can't afford a holiday, I'm the sole breadwinner at the moment, and there's really no way I could just check in to some dreamy SPA retreat and go through the zopiclone+diazepam withdrawal in a lovely quiet setting with burnout therapy coaches and healthy smoothies. I have to remain functioning at high capacity for at least another 4 months, but I'm realizing that my zopiclone-modafinil-diazepam regimen is so insanely bad that it just can't go on.

I've tried to just not take the sleeping pills hoping I could go cold turkey or at least put a pause in, but I would either not sleep at all, sleep for two hours at best, or reach for a bottle of JD out of desperation, eventually pass out at 5am, get up at 7 and then inevitably reach for Modafinil so I could get through the day.

In a nutshell, I'm a hot mess, and I got myself into this mess - guilt and shame are now constant companions to anxiety and panic - but I DID quit benzos once before, so I know I can do it again.

I'm just not sure where to even begin.

Thanks so much for listening and for any advice 🙏

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by [Lo...]

[[Co...]]

Welcome back @[Lo...]

If you message me with your old username, I might be able to retrieve access for you.

[[Lo...]]

Thanks Colin, but I'm afraid I don't remember what it was. My memory is all over the place these days thanks to brain fog😵‍💫

[[Co...]]

I'm on my phone right now. I'll see what I can do - no promises - when I return to the desktop.

[[or...]]

8 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Hey everyone,

I've registered as a new user as I couldn't remember my log-in details, but I'm not new at Benzo Buddies. Back in 2016, this forum and this community has helped me (and I'm eternally grateful for that) through some very dark times as I slowly tapered and eventually quit benzos for good - or so I thought at the time.

Yet here I am again.

After going through pure WD hell for the first 4 weeks or so, little by little, slowly, unpredictably, I got a bit better, then a bit better, then a bit better, and finally, about a year in, I could confidently say benzos and I were done. I was Benzo-free for three glorious years and I was convinced I would never touch a benzo or any Rx sleeping pill ever again under any circumstances.

Then, in 2019, I found myself in an extremely stressful situation where, due to my work, I was responsible for a team of people in a country going through civil unrest. I won't go into detail but I ended up being extremely stressed out, fatigued, and sleep deprived, and at some point, someone offered me an Ambien. I took it. I reasoned, it was just this once; it wasn't even a benzo.

Then - again due to my work - a similar situation happened within the next few months. Worse still, I was in a country where Ambien wasn't exactly sold OTC but the pharmacists weren't that strict on demanding prescriptions either. I still reasoned with myself that it was a one-off, and not a benzo, so I was fine.

Cutting the long story short, two years in, I was using zopiclone and diazepam to sleep. I'd do two nights on zopiclone, one night with no drugs, two nights on diazepam, sort of trying to rotate them - in my head, I thought I was tricking my brain not to get addicted to either, but, of course, the opposite happened.

Finally, this past year was filled with so much extreme stress and so much work that I added Modafinil and Ritalin to my routine. I'd take 2 zopiclone to sleep, then take either Modafinil or Ritalin in the morning/throughout the day so I could function and work, then pass out for the night with the help of a couple diazepam.

I still tried to rationalize it: I just needed to get through a certain period with work, and once the project was over, I'd cut back on everything, learn mindfulness meditation and live happily every after.

Yeah.

I'm finally ready to face the music. I still have tons of high-stress work on my plate, I can't afford a holiday, I'm the sole breadwinner at the moment, and there's really no way I could just check in to some dreamy SPA retreat and go through the zopiclone+diazepam withdrawal in a lovely quiet setting with burnout therapy coaches and healthy smoothies. I have to remain functioning at high capacity for at least another 4 months, but I'm realizing that my zopiclone-modafinil-diazepam regimen is so insanely bad that it just can't go on.

I've tried to just not take the sleeping pills hoping I could go cold turkey or at least put a pause in, but I would either not sleep at all, sleep for two hours at best, or reach for a bottle of JD out of desperation, eventually pass out at 5am, get up at 7 and then inevitably reach for Modafinil so I could get through the day.

In a nutshell, I'm a hot mess, and I got myself into this mess - guilt and shame are now constant companions to anxiety and panic - but I DID quit benzos once before, so I know I can do it again.

I'm just not sure where to even begin.

Thanks so much for listening and for any advice 🙏

I hope you don't try Cold Turkey, I have to say this even if I get kicked off here but I've seen so much misery and suffering happening whe folks go CT   It's the Central Nervous System we are dealing with and we have to be gentle in bringing healing from these benzos.  I recommend some sort of slow, even micro-taper.  Have you looked into the types of tapers? I imagine you have before since you've been a member, but refresh your memory up in the menu bar at the top.  "Withdrawal Methods".  Here's what BB has listed under CT: https://benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-withdrawal-methods/cold-turkey/

I do understand that the higher the doses people may be taking, can make it possible to taper higher doses, higher than the 5% -10% usually recommended I guess that means.  I'm very new, just 5 months into taper of only 1 mg so I'm no expert, not by a long-shot.  But I've read a lot of threads/posts and seems to me the worst sxs come from CT's.  People can do as they want though and I am grateful for that freedom, for all of us.  I also realize some were forced off their meds which I think is just horrific.

Anyway, I hope I'm not outa line here, it just hurts my heart that so many seem to not understand what we are dealing with in a benzo.  Hell, I took mine for 35 years and never thought it was more than a one-a-day helper that wouldn't harm me.  Won't go into my story here, but hope you stick with us, we all need eachother Denise

 

[[Lo...]]

51 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

I hope you don't try Cold Turkey, I have to say this even if I get kicked off here but I've seen so much misery and suffering happening whe folks go CT   It's the Central Nervous System we are dealing with and we have to be gentle in bringing healing from these benzos.  I recommend some sort of slow, even micro-taper.  Have you looked into the types of tapers? I imagine you have before since you've been a member, but refresh your memory up in the menu bar at the top.  "Withdrawal Methods".  Here's what BB has listed under CT: https://benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-withdrawal-methods/cold-turkey/

I do understand that the higher the doses people may be taking, can make it possible to taper higher doses, higher than the 5% -10% usually recommended I guess that means.  I'm very new, just 5 months into taper of only 1 mg so I'm no expert, not by a long-shot.  But I've read a lot of threads/posts and seems to me the worst sxs come from CT's.  People can do as they want though and I am grateful for that freedom, for all of us.  I also realize some were forced off their meds which I think is just horrific.

Anyway, I hope I'm not outa line here, it just hurts my heart that so many seem to not understand what we are dealing with in a benzo.  Hell, I took mine for 35 years and never thought it was more than a one-a-day helper that wouldn't harm me.  Won't go into my story here, but hope you stick with us, we all need eachother Denise

Thanks so much for your reply! Definitely going with the slow taper, it's just that I'm not sure what to ditch first - the nootropics (which exacerbate the insomnia), the zopiclone, or the diazepam - or whether to slowly taper all three... It just feels so overwhelming and exhausting to even start making a plan, but I know I have to.

Congrats on your 5-month tapering mark, that's impressive! 🤗

 

 

[[or...]]

6 minutes ago, [[L...] said:

Thanks so much for your reply! Definitely going with the slow taper, it's just that I'm not sure what to ditch first - the nootropics (which exacerbate the insomnia), the zopiclone, or the diazepam - or whether to slowly taper all three... It just feels so overwhelming and exhausting to even start making a plan, but I know I have to.

Congrats on your 5-month tapering mark, that's impressive! 🤗

I can imagine that would be hard as I wrestled with just 1mg, brain just wouldn't kick in so I could get started There should be some folks around that poly-drugged as well, I think that's what it's called.  With my logical mind, I guess maybe the one you think least effects you??  But at the same time, I think I'd want to get rid of the one that's gonna be the hardest. No, I think the least, lol!! Ok, I'm not helping at all.  Try not to worry though, someone will chime in with some knowledge that can help you

[[Lo...]]

9 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

I can imagine that would be hard as I wrestled with just 1mg, brain just wouldn't kick in so I could get started There should be some folks around that poly-drugged as well, I think that's what it's called.  With my logical mind, I guess maybe the one you think least effects you??  But at the same time, I think I'd want to get rid of the one that's gonna be the hardest. No, I think the least, lol!! Ok, I'm not helping at all.  Try not to worry though, someone will chime in with some knowledge that can help you

Thanks Denise🤗Yeah I suppose it would make sense to start with the one that's easiest to drop, which oddly enough would probably be the benzo right now - adding daytime nootropics into the mix really threw everything off balance🫨

Thank you for being here - my partner is trying to be supportive but he has no idea what I'm up against and is in the habit of dishing out advice in the series of "just try to sleep" or "just listen to a sleep meditation", so simply having a friendly chat with someone who understands is already a massive help!🙏

[[or...]]

1 minute ago, [[L...] said:

Thanks Denise🤗Yeah I suppose it would make sense to start with the one that's easiest to drop, which oddly enough would probably be the benzo right now - adding daytime nootropics into the mix really threw everything off balance🫨

Thank you for being here - my partner is trying to be supportive but he has no idea what I'm up against and is in the habit of dishing out advice in the series of "just try to sleep" or "just listen to a sleep meditation", so simply having a friendly chat with someone who understands is already a massive help!🙏

lol, yeah, that "just" makes it sound so simple but he sounds really nice and caring   I still can't do numbers to calculate, except good at subtraction or addition, duh!  2+2 is 5 right Well, luckily the calculator works better than my brain but someone puts up numbers in a reply and I hold up the sign of the cross and skip to another post, really fast! Denise

 

[[Es...]]

@[Lo...]

I would suggest to quit Modafinil first - or at least gradually reduce. It may interfere with your sleep, cause it's a CNS stimulant. Are these tablets possible to split? 

I only know methylphenidate which I was prescribed for ADHD, and which only made me consume more BZD, maybe even reinstate. I was also off BZD and had to RI the diazepam.

Then I'd quit zolpidem. My old friend, which they CTed in hospital back in Feb. 2016 when I was still taking diazepam. According to Benzodiazepine Equivalence Table, the half-life of Ambien is only two hours. So you experience daily interdose WD. Wonderful.

I remember it only too well, when I was on Ambien only. Each day upon arrival to work wanted to murder my co-worker. I was so cranky, my sleep was all over the place. Then, when it wore off, I got those insane bouts of energy. 

In order to quit Ambien, I started diazepam and ended up on both. If you add to it my fluoxetine taper, all hell broke loose. I wanted to appear relaxed, but I couldn't appear relaxed due to lack of sleep and daily zolpidem interdose WD. My Prozac taper was the most stupid thing I did in my whole entire life.

Then I got myself into Ambien and Valium. Ambien replaced Prozac, as it was excellent at numbing the feelings. So I took it several times a day. I wasn't able to fall asleep after Ambien due to extreme tolerance. But I was able to function, focus, concentrate. Got to like a few Ambien pills a day, which they just CT-ed in hospital.

Leaving me with 40 mg diazepam a day. The result of Ambien CT: I got no sleep two consecutive nights, then things started getting back to normal. They then cut my diazepam by 5 mg each day and I was okay with it in hospital.

I used diazepam for sleep only, as it has extremely long half-life of 20-100 hrs. Then you could stabilize on some minimum dose of diazepam, like 10 mg (equals two Ambiens) and taper from there, according to Ashton Manual. 

This is all to be talked over with a pdoc.

If you need to be "activated" during the day, even 5 mg fluoxetine does the trick. At least it did for me. Your BZD WD will activate you enough, but ADs also have a calming effect. Your pdoc could suggest an SNRI, as they act both on serotonin and dopamine.

And if you quit a dopaminergic agent like Modafinil, you may need to have your dopamine levels stabilized. Oh well, there was also Ritalin in your cocktail, how lovely.

I used to take it in a pill form, the minimum possible amount, like 2.5 mg. But it was an instant release stuff for kids. I think they have 2.5 mg pills in the US. I'm not in the US.

I know methylphenidate and it's quite easy to taper. You just split the pills into half, then into four. IMO, you could get rid of it after Modafinil. If you stay on CNS stimulants, you're bound to take more and more BZD. They are antagonists, so you will take BZD to alleviate the effects of stimulants. Then take stimulants to be more "awake" during the day. You probably hit tolerance with stimulants long ago.

This is all for a pdoc. I can imagine the Hell you're in and can really feel your suffering. You will not tackle this cocktail on your own, or with our help only. No way.

You need lots of strength and determination, but you can do it.

Keeping you in my thoughts

Paula

[[Co...]]

4 hours ago, [[C...] said:

I'm on my phone right now. I'll see what I can do - no promises - when I return to the desktop.

I did not turn up a positive ID - only some possibilities. I know you are not too concerned about retrieving your old account anyway.

[[Lo...]]

1 hour ago, [[E...] said:

@[Lo...]

I would suggest to quit Modafinil first - or at least gradually reduce. It may interfere with your sleep, cause it's a CNS stimulant. Are these tablets possible to split? 

I only know methylphenidate which I was prescribed for ADHD, and which only made me consume more BZD, maybe even reinstate. I was also off BZD and had to RI the diazepam.

Then I'd quit zolpidem. My old friend, which they CTed in hospital back in Feb. 2016 when I was still taking diazepam. According to Benzodiazepine Equivalence Table, the half-life of Ambien is only two hours. So you experience daily interdose WD. Wonderful.

I remember it only too well, when I was on Ambien only. Each day upon arrival to work wanted to murder my co-worker. I was so cranky, my sleep was all over the place. Then, when it wore off, I got those insane bouts of energy. 

In order to quit Ambien, I started diazepam and ended up on both. If you add to it my fluoxetine taper, all hell broke loose. I wanted to appear relaxed, but I couldn't appear relaxed due to lack of sleep and daily zolpidem interdose WD. My Prozac taper was the most stupid thing I did in my whole entire life.

Then I got myself into Ambien and Valium. Ambien replaced Prozac, as it was excellent at numbing the feelings. So I took it several times a day. I wasn't able to fall asleep after Ambien due to extreme tolerance. But I was able to function, focus, concentrate. Got to like a few Ambien pills a day, which they just CT-ed in hospital.

Leaving me with 40 mg diazepam a day. The result of Ambien CT: I got no sleep two consecutive nights, then things started getting back to normal. They then cut my diazepam by 5 mg each day and I was okay with it in hospital.

I used diazepam for sleep only, as it has extremely long half-life of 20-100 hrs. Then you could stabilize on some minimum dose of diazepam, like 10 mg (equals two Ambiens) and taper from there, according to Ashton Manual. 

This is all to be talked over with a pdoc.

If you need to be "activated" during the day, even 5 mg fluoxetine does the trick. At least it did for me. Your BZD WD will activate you enough, but ADs also have a calming effect. Your pdoc could suggest an SNRI, as they act both on serotonin and dopamine.

And if you quit a dopaminergic agent like Modafinil, you may need to have your dopamine levels stabilized. Oh well, there was also Ritalin in your cocktail, how lovely.

I used to take it in a pill form, the minimum possible amount, like 2.5 mg. But it was an instant release stuff for kids. I think they have 2.5 mg pills in the US. I'm not in the US.

I know methylphenidate and it's quite easy to taper. You just split the pills into half, then into four. IMO, you could get rid of it after Modafinil. If you stay on CNS stimulants, you're bound to take more and more BZD. They are antagonists, so you will take BZD to alleviate the effects of stimulants. Then take stimulants to be more "awake" during the day. You probably hit tolerance with stimulants long ago.

This is all for a pdoc. I can imagine the Hell you're in and can really feel your suffering. You will not tackle this cocktail on your own, or with our help only. No way.

You need lots of strength and determination, but you can do it.

Keeping you in my thoughts

Paula

Omg thank you so much for such a detailed response🙏 I really appreciate it - hearing from someone familiar with a cocktail I'm on is a huge dose of encouragement, so thank you.

Yeah, the Modafinil and methylphenidate has got me in a vicious cycle where if I don't take them, I can barely function, if I do take them, I can't sleep which then messes up the next day, and so on, and you're spot on that CNS stimulants=more and more benzo use. So, yup, I got myself into total Rio de Caca.

I'll look up fluoxetine; I feel tapering both methylphenidate and Modafinil might not be a huge issue, but I do dread going off the sleeping pills. I'm not on Ambien but zopiclone which is somewhat different; a few months back I was short on supply and didn't take the zopiclone for 3+ weeks CT and frankly didn't feel much of an effect, but then I had my 10mg Diazepam with me. So perhaps the plan could be tapering Modafinil and Ritalin in parallel, then zopiclone, then diazepam, although again, going off the benzo is what scares me the most since I'd done it before and it was absolute hell.

How do you feel about supplements, ice baths, and the like to stabilize dopamine? I've been reading Dopamine Nation and it seems it may be possible to sort of trick the brain into restoring dopamine circuits with biochemistry alone🤔

 

[[Lo...]]

23 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

I did not turn up a positive ID - only some possibilities. I know you are not too concerned about retrieving your old account anyway.

Yeah I think I'm good with the new one, but thank you so much🙏

[[Es...]]

@[Lo...]

I'm terribly short of time today, but I'll get back to you on Friday. I'm happy you found my post a bit useful - yes, I'm exactly familiar with your meds, except Modafinil.

You may want to decide with your pdoc which AD would be best for you. But you could definitely profit from an an activating AD. At least, they're activating in the beginning

So, fluoxetine and sertraline are considered activating SSRIs. I was certainly calmer on sertraline, but experienced terrible hot flushes when I tried it for the second time. Fluoxetine acts on dopamine receptors in the brain. Just a little bit.

Then there are SNRIs which act on serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. But they risk to make you sleepy in the beginning. They also tend to be activating.

I'm very much into all kinds of "stimulants", like coffee, guarana etc., so Prozac was the best choice for me. It gives you this "chemical anxiety", that's why it's best to start from even 5 mg. You know, we all react to meds differently. Your stimulants no longer work, as your dopamine neurons are totally fried up🔥 I mean, those pills work like about five times less than in the beginning. And the effect is contrary to the one expected.

We have our own stimulating hormones, like adrenaline and cortisol. Your dopamine system needs some rest and regeneration. You know, BZD and stimulants eventually turn out to be a vicious circle.

Dopamine supplements: Omega-3 (up to 2500 mg), L-Tyrosine 500 mg, CQ 10 30 mg, vitamin D, guarana, gingko biloba, etc. Here are twelve supplements to bring your dopamine system back into some sort of homeostasis. Besides, you don't just CT your stimulant meds, you just taper them quickly enough.

Your reward system is now totally screwed, I'm sorry. But the brain has this wonderful capacity to regenerate itself. 

Here are "Seven Natural Ways to Increase Your Dopamine Levels" & "Six Everyday Activities That Naturally Increase Dopamine in Your Brain". Except video games, these are very addictive.

Exercising, taking walks in Nature, playing with your kids and/or with your pets, humor... Even if it's dark humor. Dark humor gets me through everything. Music, as "a safe kind of high" as Jimi Hendrix once put it. It's a long hard road out of Hell before you. But you can do it. Claim back your power from these pills.

I read "Dopamine Nation" and I absolutely love it. Doctor Anna Lembke is my role model and mentor. I watch her on YouTube and the book has really changed my life. 

Yes. "producing your own dopamine" by engaging in painful activities😆 Oh my, I love it. "Life is suffering" anyway, as Buddha said, so why not embrace the damn suffering and force ourselves to do things we don't necessary find pleasurable? 

What matters is the long term perspective. Maybe ice baths for the beginning are too much...?

Helping people here is very rewarding. There are many folks who got themselves into CNS stimulants and benzos, my dear Friend @[Ja...] being one of them.

Drink green tea, it's great for the brain. Especially matcha and oolong, with a touch of yuzu and lemon. 

We have this "Joke of the Day" group which will make you laugh and oxygenate your brain. I have my philosophical/psychological and literary quote thread in the ”Off Topic" section. Since you have read doctor Lembke, I assume you're quite a smart person. It's better not to be too smart, however.

There is the whole ”Bright Side of Life" section and @[Be...] has this music thread in the "Off-Topic" if you're interested in music. Cannot remember the title and no time to check.

Maybe try to tap into your creative side, as this is very liberating. Woody Allen says he'd go crazy if he didn't make those black comedies. Also excellent for dopamine.

Please remember that I'm not in any way qualified to give you medical advice and everything needs to be consulted with a pdoc.

Must be going, I wish you the best of luck on your journey❤️

Paula

[[Je...]]

14 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Hey everyone,

I've registered as a new user as I couldn't remember my log-in details, but I'm not new at Benzo Buddies. Back in 2016, this forum and this community has helped me (and I'm eternally grateful for that) through some very dark times as I slowly tapered and eventually quit benzos for good - or so I thought at the time.

Yet here I am again.

After going through pure WD hell for the first 4 weeks or so, little by little, slowly, unpredictably, I got a bit better, then a bit better, then a bit better, and finally, about a year in, I could confidently say benzos and I were done. I was Benzo-free for three glorious years and I was convinced I would never touch a benzo or any Rx sleeping pill ever again under any circumstances.

Then, in 2019, I found myself in an extremely stressful situation where, due to my work, I was responsible for a team of people in a country going through civil unrest. I won't go into detail but I ended up being extremely stressed out, fatigued, and sleep deprived, and at some point, someone offered me an Ambien. I took it. I reasoned, it was just this once; it wasn't even a benzo.

Then - again due to my work - a similar situation happened within the next few months. Worse still, I was in a country where Ambien wasn't exactly sold OTC but the pharmacists weren't that strict on demanding prescriptions either. I still reasoned with myself that it was a one-off, and not a benzo, so I was fine.

Cutting the long story short, two years in, I was using zopiclone and diazepam to sleep. I'd do two nights on zopiclone, one night with no drugs, two nights on diazepam, sort of trying to rotate them - in my head, I thought I was tricking my brain not to get addicted to either, but, of course, the opposite happened.

Finally, this past year was filled with so much extreme stress and so much work that I added Modafinil and Ritalin to my routine. I'd take 2 zopiclone to sleep, then take either Modafinil or Ritalin in the morning/throughout the day so I could function and work, then pass out for the night with the help of a couple diazepam.

I still tried to rationalize it: I just needed to get through a certain period with work, and once the project was over, I'd cut back on everything, learn mindfulness meditation and live happily every after.

Yeah.

I'm finally ready to face the music. I still have tons of high-stress work on my plate, I can't afford a holiday, I'm the sole breadwinner at the moment, and there's really no way I could just check in to some dreamy SPA retreat and go through the zopiclone+diazepam withdrawal in a lovely quiet setting with burnout therapy coaches and healthy smoothies. I have to remain functioning at high capacity for at least another 4 months, but I'm realizing that my zopiclone-modafinil-diazepam regimen is so insanely bad that it just can't go on.

I've tried to just not take the sleeping pills hoping I could go cold turkey or at least put a pause in, but I would either not sleep at all, sleep for two hours at best, or reach for a bottle of JD out of desperation, eventually pass out at 5am, get up at 7 and then inevitably reach for Modafinil so I could get through the day.

In a nutshell, I'm a hot mess, and I got myself into this mess - guilt and shame are now constant companions to anxiety and panic - but I DID quit benzos once before, so I know I can do it again.

I'm just not sure where to even begin.

Thanks so much for listening and for any advice 🙏

@[Lo...] Welcome back! Wow! We have a similar experience in many respects. I got off a cocktail of meds in 2015 and thought I'd said goodbye to Klonopin and Xanax for good. Then in 2019 I started treatment for bone cancer and just could not cope with the stress and terror, so I started taking Klonopin and Xanax again. I'm tapering again, and it's actually going better than my first time around.

I know there are some amazing people here that can give you great advice on tailoring a taper with which meds to taper first, but I do want to say that you should not feel shame and guilt! You're doing the best you can in a very stressful situation. And of course, you can quit again. I may not be easy - although, for some reason as I mentioned above, this time around for me hasn't been awful - so it may not be awful for you, either. 

Sending you Posivibes for stabilization and healing. You are stronger than you think.

Jess

[[je...]]

Hi @[Lo...]

Good to have you back, but I'm sorry it's under these circumstances. 

2 hours ago, [[E...] said:

@[Lo...]

I'm terribly short of time today, but I'll get back to you on Friday. I'm happy you found my post a bit useful - yes, I'm exactly familiar with your meds, except Modafinil.

You may want to decide with your pdoc which AD would be best for you. But you could definitely profit from an an activating AD. At least, they're activating in the beginning

So, fluoxetine and sertraline are considered activating SSRIs. I was certainly calmer on sertraline, but experienced terrible hot flushes when I tried it for the second time. Fluoxetine acts on dopamine receptors in the brain. Just a little bit.

Then there are SNRIs which act on serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. But they risk to make you sleepy in the beginning. They also tend to be activating.

I'm very much into all kinds of "stimulants", like coffee, guarana etc., so Prozac was the best choice for me. It gives you this "chemical anxiety", that's why it's best to start from even 5 mg. You know, we all react to meds differently. Your stimulants no longer work, as your dopamine neurons are totally fried up🔥 I mean, those pills work like about five times less than in the beginning. And the effect is contrary to the one expected.

We have our own stimulating hormones, like adrenaline and cortisol. Your dopamine system needs some rest and regeneration. You know, BZD and stimulants eventually turn out to be a vicious circle.

Dopamine supplements: Omega-3 (up to 2500 mg), L-Tyrosine 500 mg, CQ 10 30 mg, vitamin D, guarana, gingko biloba, etc. Here are twelve supplements to bring your dopamine system back into some sort of homeostasis. Besides, you don't just CT your stimulant meds, you just taper them quickly enough.

Your reward system is now totally screwed, I'm sorry. But the brain has this wonderful capacity to regenerate itself. 

Here are "Seven Natural Ways to Increase Your Dopamine Levels" & "Six Everyday Activities That Naturally Increase Dopamine in Your Brain". Except video games, these are very addictive.

Exercising, taking walks in Nature, playing with your kids and/or with your pets, humor... Even if it's dark humor. Dark humor gets me through everything. Music, as "a safe kind of high" as Jimi Hendrix once put it. It's a long hard road out of Hell before you. But you can do it. Claim back your power from these pills.

I read "Dopamine Nation" and I absolutely love it. Doctor Anna Lembke is my role model and mentor. I watch her on YouTube and the book has really changed my life. 

Yes. "producing your own dopamine" by engaging in painful activities😆 Oh my, I love it. "Life is suffering" anyway, as Buddha said, so why not embrace the damn suffering and force ourselves to do things we don't necessary find pleasurable? 

What matters is the long term perspective. Maybe ice baths for the beginning are too much...?

Helping people here is very rewarding. There are many folks who got themselves into CNS stimulants and benzos, my dear Friend @[Ja...] being one of them.

Drink green tea, it's great for the brain. Especially matcha and oolong, with a touch of yuzu and lemon. 

We have this "Joke of the Day" group which will make you laugh and oxygenate your brain. I have my philosophical/psychological and literary quote thread in the ”Off Topic" section. Since you have read doctor Lembke, I assume you're quite a smart person. It's better not to be too smart, however.

There is the whole ”Bright Side of Life" section and @[Be...] has this music thread in the "Off-Topic" if you're interested in music. Cannot remember the title and no time to check.

Maybe try to tap into your creative side, as this is very liberating. Woody Allen says he'd go crazy if he didn't make those black comedies. Also excellent for dopamine.

Must be going, I wish you the best of luck on your journey❤️

Paula

If it were me, I would be very hesitant to ad another AD to the mix at this stage. If you're already on four drugs you want to taper and you don't know how your body is reacting to cuts, adding a fifth drug I think will really complicate the taper. We always recommend making only one change at a time, so you know which drug is causing which reaction. If you make too many changes at once, you don't know which drug is causing the symptoms. It will also be good to do a drug interaction check. For the same reason I would hold off on trying supplements. Some people have a bad reaction to supplements - some people don't. But if you're tapering, and you're adding AD's and supplements it will be impossible to determine which is causing your withdrawal symptoms.

There are very many different opinions on which drug to taper first. I think you should do some reading on Surviving Antidepressants about your stimulants and how people have tapered it. Knowledge is power. The more you know, the better equipped you'll be to make the best choice. 

[[Lo...]]

16 hours ago, [[E...] said:

@[Lo...]

I'm terribly short of time today, but I'll get back to you on Friday. I'm happy you found my post a bit useful - yes, I'm exactly familiar with your meds, except Modafinil.

You may want to decide with your pdoc which AD would be best for you. But you could definitely profit from an an activating AD. At least, they're activating in the beginning

So, fluoxetine and sertraline are considered activating SSRIs. I was certainly calmer on sertraline, but experienced terrible hot flushes when I tried it for the second time. Fluoxetine acts on dopamine receptors in the brain. Just a little bit.

Then there are SNRIs which act on serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. But they risk to make you sleepy in the beginning. They also tend to be activating.

I'm very much into all kinds of "stimulants", like coffee, guarana etc., so Prozac was the best choice for me. It gives you this "chemical anxiety", that's why it's best to start from even 5 mg. You know, we all react to meds differently. Your stimulants no longer work, as your dopamine neurons are totally fried up🔥 I mean, those pills work like about five times less than in the beginning. And the effect is contrary to the one expected.

We have our own stimulating hormones, like adrenaline and cortisol. Your dopamine system needs some rest and regeneration. You know, BZD and stimulants eventually turn out to be a vicious circle.

Dopamine supplements: Omega-3 (up to 2500 mg), L-Tyrosine 500 mg, CQ 10 30 mg, vitamin D, guarana, gingko biloba, etc. Here are twelve supplements to bring your dopamine system back into some sort of homeostasis. Besides, you don't just CT your stimulant meds, you just taper them quickly enough.

Your reward system is now totally screwed, I'm sorry. But the brain has this wonderful capacity to regenerate itself. 

Here are "Seven Natural Ways to Increase Your Dopamine Levels" & "Six Everyday Activities That Naturally Increase Dopamine in Your Brain". Except video games, these are very addictive.

Exercising, taking walks in Nature, playing with your kids and/or with your pets, humor... Even if it's dark humor. Dark humor gets me through everything. Music, as "a safe kind of high" as Jimi Hendrix once put it. It's a long hard road out of Hell before you. But you can do it. Claim back your power from these pills.

I read "Dopamine Nation" and I absolutely love it. Doctor Anna Lembke is my role model and mentor. I watch her on YouTube and the book has really changed my life. 

Yes. "producing your own dopamine" by engaging in painful activities😆 Oh my, I love it. "Life is suffering" anyway, as Buddha said, so why not embrace the damn suffering and force ourselves to do things we don't necessary find pleasurable? 

What matters is the long term perspective. Maybe ice baths for the beginning are too much...?

Helping people here is very rewarding. There are many folks who got themselves into CNS stimulants and benzos, my dear Friend @[Ja...] being one of them.

Drink green tea, it's great for the brain. Especially matcha and oolong, with a touch of yuzu and lemon. 

We have this "Joke of the Day" group which will make you laugh and oxygenate your brain. I have my philosophical/psychological and literary quote thread in the ”Off Topic" section. Since you have read doctor Lembke, I assume you're quite a smart person. It's better not to be too smart, however.

There is the whole ”Bright Side of Life" section and @[Be...] has this music thread in the "Off-Topic" if you're interested in music. Cannot remember the title and no time to check.

Maybe try to tap into your creative side, as this is very liberating. Woody Allen says he'd go crazy if he didn't make those black comedies. Also excellent for dopamine.

Please remember that I'm not in any way qualified to give you medical advice and everything needs to be consulted with a pdoc.

Must be going, I wish you the best of luck on your journey❤️

Paula

Thank you so, so much, Paula 🙏❤️So many great insights and suggestions, but most of all, I appreciate you taking the time to go into detail and share your experiences. I've been feeling so utterly alone with this, so just hearing from someone who gets it is massive.

Re:AD - What does it stand for? Antidepressants?

Re: suffering and embracing the suck - I'm very much on board with this and at least once a week, sometimes more often, I attempt to channel my inner Goggins and force myself to go for a run (I hate running with the very core of my being) or do short HIIT sessions (hate them less than running, but there's no love there, either). It sucks to force myself to do it and it sucks while doing it, but there's definitely an immediate and tangible boost in mood and optimism right afterwards.

Re: producing own dopamine naturally - I'm very much trying (light hikes with the doggos, good unprocessed food, good books, swimming, cold plunges), and I'm supplementing with Omega 3 & Ashwagandha. Supplements backfire sometimes, though: I recently decided to try out 5HTP but it ended in disaster - somehow, I was convinced it would work instantly, it didn't, and as I was in one of my Modafinil-induced manic states, I ended up taking like 5 300mg pills at once and felt like a complete idiot afterwards.

And that's the thing. Essentially, I feel like my biggest obstacle to get my shit together, make a plan, and execute it is the fact that more and more, I fear I'm losing touch with reality. I question whether my reactions and emotions are adequate, am I still able to think straight, or am I about to lose it?

Rationally, I understand that tapering and quitting both Moda and Ritalin would mean I would often only function at 50-60% capacity, but that a natural 50-60% capacity is way better than a chemically induced 100% that inevitably leads to anxiety, paranoia, jitters, heart palpitations and finally a 5 or 10 mg diazepam just to blunt the effects.

Rationally, I understand that tapering and going off both benzos and zopiclone would mean lots of insomnia, fatigue, exhaustion, irritability, possibly depressive moods, and more at the beginning, but once I'm on the other side, a few hours of natural sleep is always better than a 10-hour Diazepam or zopiclone stupor.

I know all this, but more and more often, I feel like I'm just not capable of thinking rationally, like the drugs have robbed me of my agency. Last night, unable to sleep (I'd taken 3 Modafinil throughout the day so I could work), I literally spent three hours obsessing whether I booked the right flight. Instead of opening the app and just checking which would have taken five seconds, I spent three hours worrying and panicking that I might have mixed up the dates. I then proceeded worrying about the fact that it was 4am already and I still wasn't sleeping, so I poured myself a large whiskey in the hopes that it would knock me out; then another; then another. In my muddled brain, it felt like replacing diazepam with alcohol meant I wasn't THAT dependent on diazepam. Yeah, sure.

This happens more and more now - taking more of Moda or Ritalin to optimize performance but only crashing even worse afterward, compensating with ever increasing doses of zopiclone or Diazepam (or gin and tonics), and feeling like I'm losing touch with reality. Anxiety is through the roof, and on top of this, I still have to perform at an intense level, travel often, and be the problem solver in crisis situations at work. Plus keep our household afloat financially. I haven't had more than 4 consecutive days off since 2019, and so for a long time, I rationalized that my Moda/Ritalin abuse is just temporary, just to get me through the next 4 months where I have to be sharp and present for several big projects, and then I'd take it easy for a bit and deal with the drug use. Guess that's a bit of a classic, but here I am - stuck, good and proper.

Sorry for the long and rambling post, but I'm just so lost as to how to rein Hyde (my irrational, scattered, and anxious brain on stimulants or after bouts of insomnia) in because right now, Jekyll seems to be losing as I'm fighting on several fronts.

Thanks for the suggestions on humor, music, and doing creative stuff. I used to play music and write a lot...these days just the mere thought of picking up an instrument seems completely overwhelming. But hell yes to Hendrix and dark humor!

Again, thank you so much for being here, thank you for listening, and thank you for sharing your experiences and insights. I'm so grateful🙏❤️

[[Lo...]]

15 hours ago, [[J...] said:

@[Lo...] Welcome back! Wow! We have a similar experience in many respects. I got off a cocktail of meds in 2015 and thought I'd said goodbye to Klonopin and Xanax for good. Then in 2019 I started treatment for bone cancer and just could not cope with the stress and terror, so I started taking Klonopin and Xanax again. I'm tapering again, and it's actually going better than my first time around.

I know there are some amazing people here that can give you great advice on tailoring a taper with which meds to taper first, but I do want to say that you should not feel shame and guilt! You're doing the best you can in a very stressful situation. And of course, you can quit again. I may not be easy - although, for some reason as I mentioned above, this time around for me hasn't been awful - so it may not be awful for you, either. 

Sending you Posivibes for stabilization and healing. You are stronger than you think.

Jess

Hi Jess, thanks so much for sharing your experience! I'm so sorry about your cancer and hope you're doing well.

Thank you for your kind words regarding shame and guilt, but it's so hard to shake. I know that guilt is the most unproductive emotion out there - it solves nothing - but I feel like a total failure that not only I went back to benzos but added CNS stimulants in the mix creating a mess of epic proportions. I should have known better. I f*cked up big time and it's a struggle to take the lesson and move on instead of wallowing in blame and guilt.

Thanks for sharing that tapering feels more doable the second time around! Maybe it's a psychological thing - quitting benzos for the first time, you've no idea when and how the WD symptoms will subside, when the hell will end, whereas the second time around, it still sucks but you know, without a doubt, that you WILL get better with time because you'd done it before. Maybe that's the reason. Either way, your words gave me hope🙏❤️

Positive vibes right back at you!🤗

 

[[Lo...]]

12 hours ago, [[j...] said:

Hi @[Lo...]

Good to have you back, but I'm sorry it's under these circumstances. 

If it were me, I would be very hesitant to ad another AD to the mix at this stage. If you're already on four drugs you want to taper and you don't know how your body is reacting to cuts, adding a fifth drug I think will really complicate the taper. We always recommend making only one change at a time, so you know which drug is causing which reaction. If you make too many changes at once, you don't know which drug is causing the symptoms. It will also be good to do a drug interaction check. For the same reason I would hold off on trying supplements. Some people have a bad reaction to supplements - some people don't. But if you're tapering, and you're adding AD's and supplements it will be impossible to determine which is causing your withdrawal symptoms.

There are very many different opinions on which drug to taper first. I think you should do some reading on Surviving Antidepressants about your stimulants and how people have tapered it. Knowledge is power. The more you know, the better equipped you'll be to make the best choice. 

Thanks so much for the info, tips, and links! I'll definitely look into that.

[[Es...]]

2 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Thank you so, so much, Paula 🙏❤️So many great insights and suggestions, but most of all, I appreciate you taking the time to go into detail and share your experiences. I've been feeling so utterly alone with this, so just hearing from someone who gets it is massive.

Re:AD - What does it stand for? Antidepressants?

Re: suffering and embracing the suck - I'm very much on board with this and at least once a week, sometimes more often, I attempt to channel my inner Goggins and force myself to go for a run (I hate running with the very core of my being) or do short HIIT sessions (hate them less than running, but there's no love there, either). It sucks to force myself to do it and it sucks while doing it, but there's definitely an immediate and tangible boost in mood and optimism right afterwards.

Re: producing own dopamine naturally - I'm very much trying (light hikes with the doggos, good unprocessed food, good books, swimming, cold plunges), and I'm supplementing with Omega 3 & Ashwagandha. Supplements backfire sometimes, though: I recently decided to try out 5HTP but it ended in disaster - somehow, I was convinced it would work instantly, it didn't, and as I was in one of my Modafinil-induced manic states, I ended up taking like 5 300mg pills at once and felt like a complete idiot afterwards.

And that's the thing. Essentially, I feel like my biggest obstacle to get my shit together, make a plan, and execute it is the fact that more and more, I fear I'm losing touch with reality. I question whether my reactions and emotions are adequate, am I still able to think straight, or am I about to lose it?

Rationally, I understand that tapering and quitting both Moda and Ritalin would mean I would often only function at 50-60% capacity, but that a natural 50-60% capacity is way better than a chemically induced 100% that inevitably leads to anxiety, paranoia, jitters, heart palpitations and finally a 5 or 10 mg diazepam just to blunt the effects.

Rationally, I understand that tapering and going off both benzos and zopiclone would mean lots of insomnia, fatigue, exhaustion, irritability, possibly depressive moods, and more at the beginning, but once I'm on the other side, a few hours of natural sleep is always better than a 10-hour Diazepam or zopiclone stupor.

I know all this, but more and more often, I feel like I'm just not capable of thinking rationally, like the drugs have robbed me of my agency. Last night, unable to sleep (I'd taken 3 Modafinil throughout the day so I could work), I literally spent three hours obsessing whether I booked the right flight. Instead of opening the app and just checking which would have taken five seconds, I spent three hours worrying and panicking that I might have mixed up the dates. I then proceeded worrying about the fact that it was 4am already and I still wasn't sleeping, so I poured myself a large whiskey in the hopes that it would knock me out; then another; then another. In my muddled brain, it felt like replacing diazepam with alcohol meant I wasn't THAT dependent on diazepam. Yeah, sure.

This happens more and more now - taking more of Moda or Ritalin to optimize performance but only crashing even worse afterward, compensating with ever increasing doses of zopiclone or Diazepam (or gin and tonics), and feeling like I'm losing touch with reality. Anxiety is through the roof, and on top of this, I still have to perform at an intense level, travel often, and be the problem solver in crisis situations at work. Plus keep our household afloat financially. I haven't had more than 4 consecutive days off since 2019, and so for a long time, I rationalized that my Moda/Ritalin abuse is just temporary, just to get me through the next 4 months where I have to be sharp and present for several big projects, and then I'd take it easy for a bit and deal with the drug use. Guess that's a bit of a classic, but here I am - stuck, good and proper.

Sorry for the long and rambling post, but I'm just so lost as to how to rein Hyde (my irrational, scattered, and anxious brain on stimulants or after bouts of insomnia) in because right now, Jekyll seems to be losing as I'm fighting on several fronts.

Thanks for the suggestions on humor, music, and doing creative stuff. I used to play music and write a lot...these days just the mere thought of picking up an instrument seems completely overwhelming. But hell yes to Hendrix and dark humor!

Again, thank you so much for being here, thank you for listening, and thank you for sharing your experiences and insights. I'm so grateful🙏❤️

I wanted to give your reply a "heart" 💙, but the system says I cannot add any more "reactions" today. I actually gave very few "reactions". Can anyone from the BB Team technical side - @[Co...] - please kindly tell me what's going on? Is there a limit to the number of "reactions" we can give daily?

Then I will be more selective with my "reactions". Cause as an Instagrammer, I'm quite generous with them. Had an extremely rough day and I don't feel up to writing, actually thought about getting some more sleep on top on the two hours I got this night. 

@[Lo...]

Yes, running is fine. If you hate running, then doctor Anna Lembke would tell you exactly to go for a run. The greater the pain, the stronger the reward. That's how we restore our reward system and create our own dopamine.

Yes, AD stands for antidepressants - only a pdoc can decide if they could help you, no one here or especially on SA is qualified enough to evaluate your mental health.

An AD could actually replace one of the meds in your cocktail, like modafinil - but I have no idea if that would be possible, only a medical professional can say.

As to supplements, you either start with a psych med or a supplement. As @[je...] rightly said, less is more. You need to know what sxs the new substance gives you, and supplements also give sxs. Fish oil is pretty safe though, and a great natural AD. I always start everything from the lowest possible dose, including supplements. Then wait and see how it works. I guess medical minimalism is the best approach.

Booze is to be CTed and replaced by diazepam. It's your choice of course. My ex-Husband is a recovering alcoholic and he owes everything to AA. I know it's easier said than done, but booze will just dissolve your brain, so to speak. It acts similarly to the BZD, only has more euphoric/toxic properties. I'm not a native speaker of English, sorry.

It seems to me that you have taken too huge responsibility upon yourself as a sole breadwinner. And I'm afraid it will backfire. I'm wondering if you could apply for SSDI and work part-time. Can't your partner or family help somehow?

I was exactly like you. Heard twice from two different pdocs that I was about to die if I continued to overwork like this. Finally, everything fell apart. Once you ruin your health, there's no going back. You cannot retrieve two things in life: health and time. I must finish and get some sleep. Having nabes' kids cursing at the top of their lungs behind the wall. Oh joy. I feel like I'm going insane. I have hyperacusis.

Take care. Be kind to yourself

Paula

[[Co...]]

34 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

I wanted to give your reply a "heart" 💙, but the system says I cannot add any more "reactions" today. I actually gave very few "reactions". Can anyone from the BB Team technical side - @[Co...] - please kindly tell me what's going on? Is there a limit to the number of "reactions" we can give daily?

Ah. Yes. I limited their use earlier today. They were set as unlimited, which can make the system less effective. So I changed it to 20 per day so that their usage is more targeted. I am fairly liberal with their use, but I surely use them less than 20 times per day.

[[Es...]]

@[Co...]

How clever. Everything in moderation, as ancient Greeks used to say. And there should be limits on everything, you're right. Then I'll learn how to use them more selectively. So I already got 17 left for tomorrow, since two go to @[Lo...] and one to you😆 Good idea, as usual on your part. I don't count how many I give a day, honestly🙈 It's high time to start being more "reserved." And maybe calculated, what an ugly word😼

 

[[Je...]]

5 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Hi Jess, thanks so much for sharing your experience! I'm so sorry about your cancer and hope you're doing well.

Thank you for your kind words regarding shame and guilt, but it's so hard to shake. I know that guilt is the most unproductive emotion out there - it solves nothing - but I feel like a total failure that not only I went back to benzos but added CNS stimulants in the mix creating a mess of epic proportions. I should have known better. I f*cked up big time and it's a struggle to take the lesson and move on instead of wallowing in blame and guilt.

Thanks for sharing that tapering feels more doable the second time around! Maybe it's a psychological thing - quitting benzos for the first time, you've no idea when and how the WD symptoms will subside, when the hell will end, whereas the second time around, it still sucks but you know, without a doubt, that you WILL get better with time because you'd done it before. Maybe that's the reason. Either way, your words gave me hope🙏❤️

Positive vibes right back at you!🤗

@[Lo...] Oh, please don't be so hard on yourself. We all make mistakes, it's part of being human. Everybody does it. I'm bummed I have to taper again, too. I knew the risk of taking a benzo and I chose to do it because I needed it to cope. And I'd probably do it again. I think you've done what you thought was right for you at the time, too. So, now, focus on stabilizing and formulating your path forward and be proud of yourself for deciding that is what you want to do. Be kind and compassionate with yourself. This is hard. What you've been through is hard. And facing it and deciding to take action is the exact opposite of being a failure. Truly.

Absolutely, though, tapering this second time has gone much more smoothly. You may be right about it being a psychological thing. Quitting the first time we don't know what to expect, and now we do, and it's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. And maybe it won't be so rough for you, either!

Jess