Just realized the severity of my situation.

[[ko...]]

Well, I wanna cut my trivial brainstorming short right here. First and foremost, I wanna taper off of this junk succesfully before starting to spout out theories.

 

One thing is for sure, I know who I want to help once I graduate.

 

Likewise, many people who are addicted to benzos for years encounter problems in that they will "crave" them even years after successfully discontinuing their use. Much like former alcoholics cannot ever touch alcohol again, ever. There is something in the brain that never fully recovers, I believe, despite the fact that we are able to overcome most of the symptoms.

 

 

 

It's ok, KK. 

This is a place for discussion after all.

But i think the kind of problems you are talking about above relates more to someone who has taken benzos in an abusive manner, to get high, to forget, to bury feelings etc. I think at least on this forum, most of us didn't take it for that reason, therefore I don't believe there would be a a residual "craving" for it in most cases. I may be wrong. Just speaking for myself and I think for the people I have grown to know here on this forum. 

[[ko...]]

By the way, thanks for the heads-up on 'Phenibut'. That stuff sounds like a nightmare!!

 

I actually do not regret using it. I did not suffer any kind of side effects whatsoever upon discontinuing it's use other then the fact that it has lost its effectiveness completely. It has been studied extensively in Russia and possesses many interesting properties for a compound . It definitely has it's place somewhere, just not being abused by former wreckless teenagers like me.

 

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenibut

 

Although phenibut does not meet all the requirements of a nootropic, it does have many similarities to piracetam. In mice, phenibut causes significant improvement on the passive avoidance test [2]. In this test of memory, animals are put in an undesirable area (such as a lighting situation or height from the floor that the species dislikes), and then given a negative stimulus (such as a shock) when they exit that area. Their ability to stay in the original area reflects how well they remember that if they exit it, they will receive the undesirable stimulus. Phenibut also improves performance on the swimming and rotarod tests and antagonizes the amnestic effect of chloramphenicol [2]. It also has an antihypoxic effect, a trait commonly seen among nootropics [17]. However, in one study, phenibut was ineffective in the water maze and shuttle box tests, while piracetam was [18]. Other research supports the idea that phenibut has nootropic activity similar to that of piracetam, but not as strong [19]. Nootropic activity has also been reported in humans [2], but it was not specified whether these were healthy adult humans, and they were probably elderly or psychiatric patients.

 

Another trait phenibut shares with nootropics is neuroprotection. Multiple animal studies have indicated that phenibut administration increases resistance to the detrimental effects of edema on mitochondria and energy production in the brain [20-22]. Phenibut also normalizes brain energy metabolism changes caused by chronic stress [23]. It was found to prevent changes in plasma electrolytes caused by cerebral injury [24]. Phenibut also protects dopaminergic neurons, and improved the condition of patients being treated with antiparkinsonian drugs [25].

 

[edit] Other effects

 

Phenibut has anticonvulsant activity against some drugs or conditions, but not others. It also potentiates the action of some other anticonvulsant drugs, and has been used to treat patients with epilepsy [2]. Phenibut has been reported to reduce motion sickness, and used in the treatment of alcohol and morphine withdrawal [2, 26]. One study indicated that phenibut increased resistance to heat stress and improved working capacity in humans [27].

 

Some studies indicate that phenibut has anti-arrhythmic properties in humans [28-29]. It also has other cardioprotective properties [30-31]. Finally, phenibut showed promise in experimental models of gastric lesions [32-33].

 

I'm surprised you guys have not heard of it. 

 

Try:

 

mind&muscle forums (neuroscience, health and longevity subsection): http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showforum=41

imminst forums (life extension forum, has a section on neuroscience): http://www.imminst.org/forum/Life-and-Health-f291.html

avant labs forums: (Neuroscience, Psychopharmacology, Etc.): http://www.avantlabs.com/forum/index.php?showforum=41 

 

Required reading (IMO): Guide to Receptors and Channels, 3rd edition (released  today!): http://www.nature.com/bjp/journal/vgrac/ncurrent/index.html

 

Lots of geeks and nerds there trying to get to the bottom of all this, just like me. Feel free to start a new thread in the appropriate sub-section of this forum to discuss it more. I'm sorry for opening this can-o-worms, but I could not resist.

[[el...]]

 

I'm surprised you guys have not heard of it. 

 

 

Well, it might just be me that's never heard of it.

At 48, I"m pretty far away from my youthful drug abusing days when it probably didn't exist.

[[Co...]]

Hi Kool,

 

We just aren't into using other substances to aid benzo withdrawal around here. It is not that such discussions are not allowed around here, it is purely that many substances have been promoted to help with benzo withdrawal, but they always fail to deliver. I understand that you are not suggesting that it should be used by those tapering off benzos, it is purely that many of us switch off when new substances are mentioned. Also, few of our members have had an 'abusive' relationship with their benzos, so tend not to experiment with other substances.

 

If what you report is correct, that tolerance is reached very rapidly, but there are no discernible withdrawal effects, that is indeed very odd. I know of Piracetam (I think I've taken it, or maybe it was just suggested to me years ago), and have taken Levetiracetam quite recently (similarities to Piracetam). I didn't notice a boost to my memory though!

[[Co...]]

Just reread the above: I did mean it to be my perspective, and is not intended to be some kind of policy warning. Others may well take a different point of view to me.

[[ko...]]

Hi Kool,

 

We just aren't into using other substances to aid benzo withdrawal around here. It is not that such discussions are not allowed around here, it is purely that many substances have been promoted to help with benzo withdrawal, but they always fail to deliver. I understand that you are not suggesting that it should be used by those tapering off benzos, it is purely that many of us switch off when new substances are mentioned. Also, few of our members have had an 'abusive' relationship with their benzos, so tend not to experiment with other substances.

 

If what you report is correct, that tolerance is reached very rapidly, but there are no discernible withdrawal effects, that is indeed very odd. I know of Piracetam (I think I've taken it, or maybe it was just suggested to me years ago), and have taken Levetiracetam quite recently (similarities to Piracetam). I didn't notice a boost to my memory though!

 

You gotta realize that a lot of these drugs simply are not very potent and although they probably do what they're supposed to do, people expect to get some sort of "high" from them, but their effect is extremely subtle, and probably more pronounced in people who are recovering from some sort of brain damage such as stroke victims.

 

That said, piracetam in particular, although one of the most widely studied nootropics, has an almost unnoticeable affect on most people to the point where a lot simply call "placebo".

 

Nowadays, there is a whole slew of different compounds. I personally highly recommend Vinpocetine. It is unique in that in increases blood brain-flow to the brain and has a similar action as viagra, but on brain cells.

 

As far as the racetam family goes, you can't go wrong with aniracetam. A fat-soluble analogue of piracetam, it is one of the few substances available today that actually modulates AMPA receptors. It is the future of "smart drugs". Ei; Adderall like focus without any negative side effects. Modafinil is already part of this newer generation of AMPA modulators (so-called "Ampakins")

[[el...]]

Here's a concept:

 

NO drugs!

[[Co...]]

Here's a concept:

 

NO drugs!

 

Don't, you'll give Kool a coronary!

 

Kool, just how much research have you been making into benzos? Do you have access to resources such as PubMed or similar?

[[ju...]]

http://www.thebenzobook.com/benzo/pdfs/the-benzo-book10.pdf

 

Jack was a participating member at Benzo Island several years ago.  We or should I say at least I, am very familiar with his book, and most people in it.  It is available as a free down load if anyone wants to read it.

 

julewife

[[ko...]]

Here's a concept:

 

NO drugs!

 

Don't, you'll give Kool a coronary!

 

Kool, just how much research have you been making into benzos? Do you have access to resources such as PubMed or similar?

 

A lot of time and energy, I have to say. Pubmed is a free resource and is available to everyone, although you might have to pay for full articles, I usually know where to find them for free if need be.

 

I currently came across some research on pregnenolone or "the mother of all hormones" which available OTC in North America. I knew about pregnenolone for a long time now, but I only recently found out that it is a direct diazepam antagonist. A 2004 study showed that it reduced valium's sedating effects, while having no effect on it's anxyolitic effect. However, in the study it says it binds to diazepam molecules simply reducing the amount circulating in your blood. I'm going to look farther into this. I also remember reading it had some potential benefits when combined with benzodiazepines for withdrawal in an issue of Life Extension magazine a few months back. I'll see if I can fish it out.

[[ko...]]

Update:

 

I have cut out ALL my "nootropics" upon further researching and advice from others.

 

The reasoning is that they induce excess cholinergenic activity. Basically, even more brain activity from the "memory" neurotransmitter (ephephrine aka adrenaline being a "fight or flight" neurotransmitter (very generalized, but you get the picture), and so on).

 

Not something I want while GABA is recovering.

 

As a personal update, I am now "stabilized" at 10mg valium, and will begin tapering as soon as the 1st week is up. I have found that the thing that induces the most anxiety, for me, is sugar. I eat very starchy and sugary foods after my workouts and have noticed these are the times I have the most symptoms, so that will need to be taken care of.

[[Co...]]

Here's a concept:

 

NO drugs!

 

Don't, you'll give Kool a coronary!

 

Kool, just how much research have you been making into benzos? Do you have access to resources such as PubMed or similar?

 

A lot of time and energy, I have to say. Pubmed is a free resource and is available to everyone, although you might have to pay for full articles, I usually know where to find them for free if need be.

 

My experience of Pubmed and similar resources is that nearly always only the summary is available without subscription. You'll have to point me to those free resources!

[[ko...]]

Updates:

 

Benzodiazepine antagonists of any kind while tapering is a *BIG* no-no.

 

Research has shown that benzodiazepine antagonists like Flumazenil and Pregnenolone can actually reverse some of the so-called "protracted withdrawal syndrome" side effects induced by long-term benzodiazepine use.

 

What's the catch?

 

The catch is you can ONLY use them when you have successfully tapered off of benzos and have been off of them for at least a few months.

 

If taken during tapering, these potent substances can send you into early withdrawal and in high enough doses, induce seizures!

 

The moral of the story is this (and this, coming from a guy who likes to experiment with every substance under the sun thinking it will make things easier);

 

Stick to the taper plan. Eat well, rest well, and avoid stress. PERIOD. There are simply too many risks involved in experimenting with substances of any kind while attempting to quit benzodiazepines. Some "peers" of mine still can't get this through their thick head - but I don't blame them.

 

Back to my taper;

 

Day 7 at 10mg of Valium a day. I feel absolutely no withdrawal symptoms. I'm sleeping fine and have not noticed any increased anxiety or other symptoms. Is it safe to say I'm stabilized? I plan on going down to 9mg a day starting tomorrow.

[[Je...]]

Sounds to me like you have stablized Koolkat!!    Glad to hear you are not suffering any withdrawal symptoms!  Onward!!

 

Love,

 

Jen

[[ko...]]

Sounds to me like you have stablized Koolkat!!    Glad to hear you are not suffering any withdrawal symptoms!  Onward!!

 

Love,

 

Jen

 

Thanks Jen,

 

BTW, your sig is pretty inspiring.

[[el...]]

Updates:

 

Benzodiazepine antagonists of any kind while tapering is a *BIG* no-no.

 

Research has shown that benzodiazepine antagonists like Flumazenil and Pregnenolone can actually reverse some of the so-called "protracted withdrawal syndrome" side effects induced by long-term benzodiazepine use.

 

What's the catch?

 

The catch is you can ONLY use them when you have successfully tapered off of benzos and have been off of them for at least a few months.

 

If taken during tapering, these potent substances can send you into early withdrawal and in high enough doses, induce seizures!

 

The moral of the story is this (and this, coming from a guy who likes to experiment with every substance under the sun thinking it will make things easier);

 

Stick to the taper plan. Eat well, rest well, and avoid stress. PERIOD. There are simply too many risks involved in experimenting with substances of any kind while attempting to quit benzodiazepines. Some "peers" of mine still can't get this through their thick head - but I don't blame them.

 

 

Glad you posted this Kool!

[[Je...]]

Thank you K!!  Can't wait til I see a sig like that for you!!  and it WILL happen! 

 

Love,

 

Jen