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NAD+, take 2


[ra...]

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Dear All,

 

I am sorry I have been gone from the boards for a while.  I am having a tough time, and when I am not myself, I do not feel qualified to contribute.  I take my role here very seriously.  I see all of the topics in this thread, and I could comment on many of them, but I think this is the most important.

 

Several members have contacted me about NAD+.  Particularly if and why I think it can work, why it might not, how to use it, and how to know if it is likely to help you.

 

I found my original post on NAD+, and I stand behind most of it, but since then I have learned a few more things.

 

First, in another post, I said I found a book on NAD+.  As I said in that post, this book is entirely without science.  The only thing of value is that it told me that a clinic has successfully detoxed a few thousand people from everything from opioids to alcohol to benzos.

 

Here is the book.  Again, it is worthless with absolutely no science, except that it is a story that NAD+ can help people.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Addiction-Dark-Night-Soul-Light/dp/1982218134/ref=pd_sbs_14_1/147-7787286-4606139?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1982218134&pd_rd_r=76bb0e0e-115e-4306-b6c7-b599ac5411e0&pd_rd_w=trtet&pd_rd_wg=3sZPq&pf_rd_p=12b8d3e2-e203-4b23-a8bc-68a7d2806477&pf_rd_r=0X86A9TV72K7130N9VW3&psc=1&refRID=0X86A9TV72K7130N9VW3

 

And after reading it, I found several other clinics with similar track records in the US, UK, and Australia.  My confidence level that it can help at least some of us is much greater than it was when I first wrote the post below.  People bring up Ken Starr.  I think Ken Starr is like Ben Lynch.  He said one thing out loud that was worthwhile, Ben - "Methylation is important."  Ken - "NAD+ can be used to treat addiction."  Beyond that, I am not a fan.  That does not mean he might not help you.  He might.  He charges a a lot, and I have literally forgotten more about biochem and neurology than he knows, so just be careful.

 

Second, the reason it did not work in me and one reason it might not work in you is histamine.  NAD+ is a very powerful form of niacin.  Like niacin, it will dump histamine on you, and if you are sensitive to histamine, it could be a problem.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360722/pdf/bj3930697.pdf

 

In my post below, I said I would get NAD+, NAD+, and nothing but NAD+, and I now see the problem with that.  A TRULY qualified, skilled medical practitioner would be able to give supplements along with NAD+ that would help with histamine.  In that aspect I am doubly screwed because I am one of those buddies who is super sensitive, and I do not think there is one truly qualified place on God's sweet earth that can mix up the right formula for an individual.  I do not blame the practitioners.  I think most of what one would need to know is very hard to know.  I sure as hell do not know it.  Yet.  I am seeing another specialist in the next month or so from whom I wish to learn, but that is another tale for another day.  But that brings me to . . .

 

Third, there is a very simple test that would tell if you might be a good candidate for NAD+.  I will obey BB policy.  I am not prescribing anything.  Based on what I know, the following test SHOULD tell you if you are a good candidate, it is not perfect.  I can tell you that even if it goes badly, it will not in anyway make you worse in the long term, or disrupt your healing.  It might be painful.  You can try it if you wish.  If I were to do this test, I would wait for a few days when I had nothing important to do.

 

Step 1.  Get some plain old full-flush niacin, also known as nicotinic acid.  I like this brand because it does not have any other ingredients that would mess up the test:

https://www.vitacost.com/kal-niacin?&CSRC=GPF-PA-021245824350-Google_PLA_PRO_HM_Vitamins+%26+Supplements-&network=g&keywordname=&device=c&adid=92700053302798857&matchtype=&gclick=Cj0KCQjwy8f6BRC7ARIsAPIXOjjey7s2nC_XE950-x146sh6AhXu3DQbVt-1n2JHeZOOkQtWeqD2lvoaAvmoEALw_wcB&ds_agid=58700005833477638&targetid=&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy8f6BRC7ARIsAPIXOjjey7s2nC_XE950-x146sh6AhXu3DQbVt-1n2JHeZOOkQtWeqD2lvoaAvmoEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

Take 2 or 3 pills, 100-150 mg on an empty stomach.  If your face, hands, and feet turn red and feel like they are "burning" for 15-30 minutes and after that you feel exactly as you did before, maybe even a little relaxed, congratulations, that is the normal response and you are not histamine sensitive.  If, on the other hand, you either do not flush or after you flush, you get serious chills and you get joint pain in your hands and feet, and the next day your ears ring (tinnitus), or if they already ring, they ring louder, and you get a metallic taste in your mouth, that means you are histamine sensitive and you are probably not a good candidate for NAD+.  Niacin on an empty stomach might give you a little stomach acid.  This is also normal, and would not happen with NAD+ IV infusions.

 

Step 2.  Get some plain old vitamin C.  Here is a good, clean source

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Solgar-Vitamin-C-500-mg-100-Vegetable-Capsules/69615?gclid=Cj0KCQjwy8f6BRC7ARIsAPIXOjh7RfFlQXodEMcWyL8lXyWtWEgggNVvgOcf63TF7d-R3JW6RCqcUl0aAgw8EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

Take 1 500 mg capsule.  You should feel absolutely nothing.  If you get revved up, you are probably not a good candidate for NAD+.

 

There are things one MIGHT be able to do to change his own biochemistry such that he could pass those tests and take a shot at NAD+.  I do not know how to do this.  Yet.

 

Now I recommend that you read what I posted below, reread what I posted above, and make your own decisions.

 

You are all my buddies.  I feel your pain, and will do all I can to helps us when I can.  Working this problem is teh most important thing in my life.  But as I said, I am not doing well right now.  That is why I have been away and will stay away for a while.  I will probably not look at replies to this.  Right now, this is all I know.  When I feel 2 teaspoons better, I will come back and do what I can.  Till then, I ask that you give me some time to regroup.

 

When I am back, you will know it, trust me ;-)

 

You all hang in there and take care.  I will too.

 

Ramcon1

 

Dear Buddies,

 

There has been quite a bit of buzz on other sub-boards about NAD+ as a treatment for benzo wd, and several members have been after me to post my thoughts.  We all decided a few months ago that "Chewing the Fat" would be the place for the discussion of research and treatments.  I have been "wavy" these past couple of months, but I have been collecting info, waiting to both be well enough, and have enough info to share to make a new thread worthwhile.

 

I am not here to tell you all, "NAD+ is the cure!  Go get NAD+!"  I will tell you that I like its potential so much, I moved it to the front of the line of things I will probably try.

 

There are three buddies who posted how well it helped them.  I do not have any issue pointing them out because they posted it themselves.  If you wish, you can look up the posts of Shamo3, NFN, and Fishyfish5.  I have heard about 3 other cases from a source not benzobuddies, so I will not share any contact or links.

 

In summary, those 6 people went to clinics and got multiple IV infusions of a nutrient called NAD+ and felt better. One person, fishyfish5 says he is 100% cured, and the other 6 are/were doing "much better to nearly well" in 3-6 months with continued improvement in 2-3 years approaching pre-benzo normalcy.

 

NAD stands for Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide.  It is a coenzyme in dozens of chemical reactions in human metabolism.  For me to move something to the front of the line, it has to answer the question, "Why would it help us?"  Those that know me, know that I am 100% convinced that almost all of our misery is due to a disorder of glutamate reception.  Well, I scoured the internet for days, and found exactly one paper, but it does answer the question, "why would this help us."  For my fellow neuroscientists, here it is, but I will warn you, it took ALL I KNOW, to make the connection as to what it "says," and how/why it could help:

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2017.00021/full

 

I dissected this paper.  It makes a good case for reversing glutamate transmission and reception damage. (Anyone who can check my work, please have at it).  I am taking the paper, my dissection, and the 6 informal case studies and will be discussing it with my neurologist on Thursday.  He is also a neuroscientist, and literally the only doc I trust.

 

What I have learned about the specifics:

 

1. It takes 10-12 initial treatments of 500-1000 mg, usually with a day or 2 break in the middle.

2. You want to make certain you are getting pure NAD+.  There are other similar chemicals that are cheaper that do not have the same effect.

3.  It is not cheap.  It will cost between 5 and 20 thousand US dollars, depending on where you go, and how much you get.

4.  If I get it, I will personally choose to get NAD+, NAD+ and nothing but NAD+.  It is given in two different settings, "rejuvenation," and "unspecified addiction recovery," and depending on the clinic, they may have their own ideas as to what else would be beneficial for rejuvenation or addiction recovery.  If I do this, I am going to keep this experiment pure, and also, I am sooooooooo sensitive to every damn thing some "innocuous" vitamin is as likely to trigger me and ruin whatever the NAD+ helps.

5. I am not sure about fishyfish5, but Shamo3 and NFN both used NAD+ to jump, as in ct from their benzo.  Neither was on a very high dose, but it was a ct, and they did not have ct horror stories.

6.  One may benefit from a few spaced out "booster" treatments, 1 or 2 sessions at a clip, a few months apart after the initial 10-12 treatments.

 

Right now.  That is all I know.  Do I think it will work?  I do not know.  A sample of 6 is too small, and if I had a nickel for everything that looked good on paper I would have a lot of nickels.  I like it enough that I am seeing what it takes to try it myself, soon.  I have personal checklist, and when it is complete, I will make my decision before the end of April.

 

If anyone has any thoughts or experiences one way or the other, please share.

 

Be well and good luck,

 

Ramcon1

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Be careful, Ramcon!

And others thinking of trying NAD+.

I posted my experience with it on this forum a few weeks ago but it was moved to another forum.

It was not a good one.

 

I took various methylation supplements before and during. I tested out my histamine tolerance in a variety of ways prior to starting. I tested out sublingual NAD+ prior to starting. All fine.

 

My doctor included some amino acids, all of which were innocuous in and of themselves and I could take beforehand with no reaction. Otherwise, just NAD+.

 

I am 3 years off and very much regret trying it. It revved me up bad and I’m still not doing well over a month later. I have brand new symptoms that I never had. Vertigo, and what is appearing to be occipital neuralgia. Both brand new and utterly debilitating. My head tremors are next level now too, hardly had those before.

 

I felt like crap beforehand, but I was at least fairly stable. Not so much now.

 

As I mentioned in my post, I don’t mean to discourage anyone from trying this! I’ve personally talked to a few people who had great experiences, even at the clinic I went to. But I’ve also talked to a couple who had poor experiences like I did. It’s definitely a risk.

 

Check out my full post if you’re interested in reading more about my experience. I think it’s on ‘alternative therapies’ or ‘alternative medications’ now.

 

I wish all of you the best of luck if you decide to go forward with this. Just be careful!!

 

 

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First, Nov, I am so sorry that happened to you.  That sucks bro and I feel your pain.  I was going to PM you, but this is better in open forum.

 

Second for everyone else,

 

Here is the link to Nov3 post on his bad experience with NAD+

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=244156.msg3114186#msg3114186

 

What the practioner said to Nov is ALMOST true.  Benzos do not, "damage one system" and NAD+ does not, "restore that system." But he's close.  The most prevalent expression of benzo damage is an increase in the number of and current flow thru glutamate receptors, and NAD+ SHOULD reverse that specific type of damage.  I found one thing benzos do for which NAD+ is very bad and that was histamine intolerance.  That is a combination of benzos reducing methylation, (valium specifically also inhibits histamine clearance) and our restricted diets can make that problem worse as foods and supps that would help methylation and histamine clearnace also tend to rev us up so we avoid them.  This is the exact case for me.

 

Nov has found something else.  And I have always been honest with all of you, I do not know what went wrong.  I would have bet the house that if you were not histamine intolerant and could take supps that boost methylation (folic acid/folate, TMG) and reduce histamine (vitamin C, quercetin) that NAD+ would be helpful for both getting off benzos fast and speeding healing.  Nov states that his methylation and tolerance for both histamine and histamine reducing supps and food were fine, and it still went badly.

 

I have a few thoughts questions.

 

First, Nov, you are too tough for your own good!  If something had made me that sick, there is no way I would have toughed it out!

 

Second, do you know what else they gave you besides NAD+?  My gut, and this is literally just a gut feeling, not based on anything I have read or know, was that it was something else in the treatment that made you sicker.

 

There is another possibility.  It is possible that the majority of your own personal misery is based on neither glutamate nor histamine.  Gun to my head I would say that is not possible, but if I have learned one thing, it is that what I do not know greatly outweighs what I do.  The old saying, "The more I learn, the less I know."

 

If you have anything you want to share about what else they might have given you, and/or what else you might have going on besides glutamate or histamine, please post here so others (me!) can learn from your experiences.

 

And moderators, you have told us that Chewing The Fat is the space you want us to use to discuss research, its implementation, benefits, and consequences.  Clearly that discussion will include "alternative treatments," "other medications," and areas that over lap.  This discussion started here, and I politely ask that you leave it here. 

 

Ramcon1

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What the practioner said to Nov is ALMOST true.  Benzos do not, "damage one system" and NAD+ does not, "restore that system." But he's close.  The most prevalent expression of benzo damage is an increase in the number of and current flow thru glutamate receptors, and NAD+ SHOULD reverse that specific type of damage.  I found one thing benzos do for which NAD+ is very bad and that was histamine intolerance.  That is a combination of benzos reducing methylation, (valium specifically also inhibits histamine clearance) and our restricted diets can make that problem worse as foods and supps that would help methylation and histamine clearnace also tend to rev us up so we avoid them.  This is the exact case for me.

 

Yeah, he's of the mind that benzos just damage the GABA system. This doesn't explain setbacks at all, so I don't buy it. I think we're kindled.

 

First, Nov, you are too tough for your own good!  If something had made me that sick, there is no way I would have toughed it out!

 

The mantra at this place - in constantly talking to the doctor, staff, and patients that have been there - was 'it sucks...until it doesn't.' Apparently, according to them, it exacerbates everything because it's working on those areas of the brain. And when you have flare ups of symptoms, it means it's hitting those areas and doing work. Then... at some point, the work is done, and the symptoms just turn off. I pushed forward because I was waiting on that 'turn off' or at least some improvement. After 15 days, it never came.

 

Second, do you know what else they gave you besides NAD+?  My gut, and this is literally just a gut feeling, not based on anything I have read or know, was that it was something else in the treatment that made you sicker.

 

Amino acids at very low levels (glycine, threonine, phenylanine) throughout and Myer's cocktail + glutathione or alpha lipoic acid before the daily NAD+ infusions. All pretty innocuous as far as I know and nothing gave me major setback feelings, or negative feelings at all. Primary just a whole lot of NAD+. The NAD+ infusions are hard as hell to endure in and of themselves - but I never really felt benzo-terrible while on the IV... but I would go home every night and everything just kept feeling more and more exacerbated. All of my benzo symtpoms just kept feeling like they were getting more and more aggravated. Again, I never felt like anything was improving. Just getting worse as I progressed. But I was determined to see it through until at least 15 days.

 

I read about NAD+ being 'soothing' to the nervous system... It certainly doesn't feel soothing in any way. As I mentioned, it's hard as hell. It's extremely uncomfortable and puts the body under a lot of stress. I may or may not have shed a couple tears at the end of the first day. I got a shingles outbreak (has never happened) because of the stress my body was under... Stress is a massive symptom trigger for me, as I'm sure it is for many others. The way it made me feel, it's obvious to me how it could've made everything worse. It's a very trying experience - and I wasn't even in acute withdrawal! I'm just saying, it's not a walk in the park and it's not hard to see how it could make a sensitive person worse if it's not fixing the underlying sensitivity/kindling somehow.

 

There is another possibility.  It is possible that the majority of your own personal misery is based on neither glutamate nor histamine.  Gun to my head I would say that is not possible, but if I have learned one thing, it is that what I do not know greatly outweighs what I do.  The old saying, "The more I learn, the less I know."

 

For sure. I ultimately don't know what the hell is wrong with me or any of us. I just know that I was immaculately healthy one day, cold turkeyed my benzo the next, and have never been the same since. 3+ years later. So I know the benzos are to blame. Just don't know damage they caused... Again though, 'kindling' makes the most sense to me... As we've all discussed though, could be something beyond it; autoimmune deregulation, oxidative stress/inflammation cycle, ???... but my gut just says the kindling answer is the simplest and most likely for us.

 

If you have anything you want to share about what else they might have given you, and/or what else you might have going on besides glutamate or histamine, please post here so others (me!) can learn from your experiences.

 

*shrugs* Again... I was a healthy 27 year old man. Nothing wrong with me besides anxiety. I was actually traveling the world the week before my cold turkey. Then everything changed in the blink of an eye and I can't even go into the sunlight now without freaking out and my body breaking down. I've got nothing else at this point. Neither do the myriad of doctors that have performed a billion tests on me.

 

But alas, maybe there is something additional. I cannot say for sure. If I've learned anything in all of this, it's that the human is incredibly mysterious and complex. We know so little. And like I said, I think this has worked for others? So.... WHO KNOWS. I'm all for trying to figure this out, clearly... So I continue to encourage others to search. Just practice trepidation and go slowly into things.

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  • 11 months later...

Hi Nov3, I am very sorry that you had a negative IV NAD+ experience.

I am not a scientist but have substantial and very hard personal experience with benzos, pregabalin, CT, rapid withdrawal, and all the hell that comes with it.

 

Here is my perspective on what other things might have gone wrong with your bad IV NAD+ experience.

Of course, it is still possible that you simply cannot tolerate NAD+ substance at this point (or at so high dosages).

But I thought for the benefit of you and other BB to also explore some other possibilities.

 

I will quote you from this thread and also this one: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=244156.0

 

I took various methylation supplements before and during. I tested out my histamine tolerance in a variety of ways prior to starting. I tested out sublingual NAD+ prior to starting. All fine.

That is great!

 

My doctor included some amino acids, all of which were innocuous in and of themselves and I could take beforehand with no reaction. Otherwise, just NAD+.

Amino acids at very low levels (glycine, threonine, phenylanine) throughout and Myer's cocktail + glutathione or alpha lipoic acid before the daily NAD+ infusions. All pretty innocuous as far as I know and nothing gave me major setback feelings, or negative feelings at all.

  • Possibly not great. You can never be 100% sure that a certain thing is 'innocuous' during benzo wd.
  • They might be ok for a while and then turn against you. Or they simply do not work properly in combination with other things.
  • And here you mentioned a lot of different supplements in addition to NAD+.
  • I have read in other NAD+ threads that people sometimes did not have good reactions to add-on supplements to NAD+.
  • The negative reactions do not always have to be immediate. Sometimes they are delayed so it is much harder to connect them.
  • You yourself said that you had a setback after a simple thing as a workout. And I think you are not the only one. Everybody knows workouts are supposed to help, but in benzo wd, many things are upside-down.

 

Each infusion lasted 7-9 hours, with NAD+ levels being somewhere between 1200-1800 mg daily.

  • Sounds like a big amount to start with. I have seen on other threads 500-1000mg.
  • In a sensitive person, it might be a good idea (if and after they tolerate sublingual NAD+), to start very low and slow with IV. And without any add-ons! I don`t know how much, like maybe 25-50mg injections daily. And then follow the response as the dose increase. Of course, this kind of protocol cannot be used for CT, but can be used when in a protracted (and probably that would be its best use as the brain in protracted is already in a big mess and we don`t want to 'shock' it, even with good things)
  • That is basically the same principle that applies when trying any other oral supplements or meds in benzo wd. Start low and raise slow.
  • Also may be a good idea to use continuous low daily doses (without raising them once you find the sweet spot) to assist with tapering off (fellow BB CCabbot did it that way. Interesting: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=244970.0).
  • It seems that maybe for people who cannot tolerate regular IV drip doses NAD+ can be administered in a microdosing manner? Similar to how some people microdose some psychoactive substances (marijuana, psilocybin mushrooms, LSD...). You get the benefits, but avoid the unwanted/untolerated side effects from bigger doses. Of course in this case I suppose the treatment duration would be much longer than 15 days. But there are probably ways that people can self-administer it at home.
     
  • For example: When I started to reinstate to 3mg Clonazepam, every time I would dose I would get worse for a few hours or sometimes half a day (revving of various symptoms), and then level out a bit (not like normal, but a certain tolerable baseline). But as days went by that bad reaction would lessen in duration and intensity. I am now 2 weeks reinstated and still have those reactions but more tolerable (still some better and some worse days; and I do help myself with supplements) but there is an overall improvement which I expect to continue. Why is it like this and not calm after the first reinstated dose? I endured 4 months of very hard wd after a very fast taper so my brain was and still is in a big mess, so even reinstating to the same benzo and dose confuses the brain a little and it has to adapt again.

 

The NAD+ at Emerald is infused with amino acids, the doctor said many people start to feel good during the infusions because the aminos are kind of supporting your brain and giving it a crutch.

Yes, that is awesome for people who can tolerate them. But not everybody can.

 

But maybe benzo people aren't as cut and dry and some other addictions.

100% sure. From my current experience, what I have read and seen from other people, and what an addiction psychiatrist told me, benzos are the hardest drugs to withdraw from, and wd is so unpredictable.

 

He says that benzos fundamentally do one thing and affect one system. He says that NAD+ inevitably restores that system. If it's not a problem with that system, then maybe benzo withdrawal causes a physiological response that is similar to the other aforementioned chronic conditions... autoimmune, chronic inflammatory, NO/ONOO, etc. I don't know.

 

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I need to chime in here, I started slowly with NAD nasal spray then 100mg IV then 250mg IV then up to 500mg IV. Now started 250mg IV 4 days in a row, I had all positive results, up until 2 days in on the 250mg IV, things have gone sideways on me. I have 2 left to do, but right now I’m in a tail spin with symptoms tripling on me very acute feeling. I’m still on a healthy dose of Valium too, I would caution the people on much lower dose and more sensitive systems. This started as something very positive and very quickly is turning into a nightmare. I was noticing nothing but symptom relief and now it has completely turned against me. I will hold the line as long as I can, maybe this will pass and I will continue with my last 2 treatments. I will update.
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casestudy,

 

As Ramcon1 was explaining few posts before:

[*]What is your status on methylation, did they give you TMG or something to support methylation?

[*]What is your status with histamine tolerance?

Maybe you have reached a point above your tolerable (sweet) spot, and maybe it would help to reduce as low as needed. Either low dosing or microdosing. Or even first taking a pause until the mess calms down.

I think there are both immediate and delayed (maybe also cumulative) effects from NAD+. So that complicates finding the right dosage.

 

I hope you will sort it out.

 

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I did have some histamine issues first on the nasal spray, the issue resolved itself and I passed the niacin flush test with no problem so I do well on b3 alone. I can’t tolerate b complex vitamins, or folic acid, but I’ve been trying to eat foods high in them and don’t seem to have an issue. So eating foods high in b vitamins has been the only way I can think to address methylation. I do have a bottle of TMG I haven’t tried because I didn’t want to throw to many things in the mix at once. I am no expert just doing what I can, I am not against NAD but rather throwing out some caution to ones that are much more sensitive than myself at lower dosages. I will try the TMG now that I’m already unstable and see if it has any effect. The doctor administering this didn’t give advice or caution on methylation. I will report back.

 

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  • 1 year later...
How empty should be the stomach for the niacin test? I mean, do I need to take soon as I wake up during the fast or can be anytime of the day between meals? I have gastritis and I wonder if I should take the supplement when I wake up.
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Just out of curiosity…. Is anyone in protracted seeing any success with nad+ I’ve been using it for about two months with zero results nasal and injections and just wonder if I’m wasting my time and money on nad when it’s more effective for those tapering or recently jumped
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How empty should be the stomach for the niacin test? I mean, do I need to take soon as I wake up during the fast or can be anytime of the day between meals? I have gastritis and I wonder if I should take the supplement when I wake up.

 

 

I've been told empty stomach is 1 hour before breakfast, 2 hours after any meal. That's for meds I take. You could take it in the morning, maybe 15 minutes before breakfast. Otherwise, I'd go with 2 hours after a meal. This is a two year old thread, so you may not get a response from ramcon1, because he's moved on to other stuff.

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How empty should be the stomach for the niacin test? I mean, do I need to take soon as I wake up during the fast or can be anytime of the day between meals? I have gastritis and I wonder if I should take the supplement when I wake up.

 

 

I've been told empty stomach is 1 hour before breakfast, 2 hours after any meal. That's for meds I take. You could take it in the morning, maybe 15 minutes before breakfast. Otherwise, I'd go with 2 hours after a meal. This is a two year old thread, so you may not get a response from ramcon1, because he's moved on to other stuff.

 

Thank you!

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