Any medical papers proving low doses can cause severe damage?

[[Ma...]]

What do you think is wrong with many of us who are still suffering so horribly since being in tolerance w/d and then getting off?  I was quite healthy and strong until I went into tolerance w/d and then got off the pills.  I have the stand alone APS with a high Anti-beta 2 glycoprotein 1 IGM autoantibody.  Also diagnosed with Thrombophilia associated with the APS Lupus.  APS Lupus diagnosed in 2012 while in tolerance w/d.  I feel in myself this APS is a drug-induced Lupus type of damage.  I immediately got severe cognitive decline problems too when I got off.  I used to run my own lab at work and now I can't even balance my own checkbook anymore.  Had a seizure at work also in 2012 and it felt like my brain "melted" that down-like syrup running down around the inside of my skull from top to bottom.  I've never been the same since cognitively.  Some damage happened that day from my seizure.  Lost my appetite and thirst as well when I got off the benzo's and it's never returned.  I used to have a great appetite.  Also bad genes of course.  I'm desperate to know what's happened to me.  I know one thing for certain:  I am damaged from drugs.   

 

I'm really sorry that you are suffering so much. I don't think we will ever know whether your seizure and symptoms are caused by the benzo withdrawal or the APS. APS can cause all kinds of neurological symptoms due to blood clots in the brain.

[[di...]]

It's a fine balance. Ultimately, "it's the benzo", but it can sometimes be helpful to know something about conditions with similar symptoms because some of the things that help could be the same. It's not so helpful though IMO to spend too much time trying to settle on a diagnosis. For example, it doesn't change my actual condition whether I say it's benzo belly, IBS or something else. It's helpful to learn how people with IBS manage their condition and I don't need an IBS diagnosis to try some things. The treatment options only available with a diagnosis are no good to me. I'm not taking any meds for it and I'm not going through a procedure.

 

I've been there myself. When I learn something new that would have been useful to know in the past, it leads to a bunch of "what if?"s that need to be processed. This has been overwhelming for me when I've been experiencing bad withdrawal symptoms. I'm glad I set out to understand this stuff because recently I have been making good health decisions and I am starting to see the rewards. I've had to resist harmful advice given when I was most vulnerable and I couldn't have done that had I failed to inform myself. My advice to people who want to research topics relevant to their own experience is not to expect definitive answers. Don't look for proof because you'll never find it. You'll want to form a narrative of what's happened to you in light of your new knowledge. That's when you have to be careful in my experience because opening those wounds can get quite emotional and something that starts out as a scientific endeavour can shift in emphasis without you realising.

[[Ma...]]

It's a fine balance. Ultimately, "it's the benzo", but it can sometimes be helpful to know something about conditions with similar symptoms because some of the things that help could be the same. It's not so helpful though IMO to spend too much time trying to settle on a diagnosis. For example, it doesn't change my actual condition whether I say it's benzo belly, IBS or something else. It's helpful to learn how people with IBS manage their condition and I don't need an IBS diagnosis to try some things. The treatment options only available with a diagnosis are no good to me. I'm not taking any meds for it and I'm not going through a procedure.

 

I've been there myself. When I learn something new that would have been useful to know in the past, it leads to a bunch of "what if?"s that need to be processed. This has been overwhelming for me when I've been experiencing bad withdrawal symptoms. I'm glad I set out to understand this stuff because recently I have been making good health decisions and I am starting to see the rewards. I've had to resist harmful advice given when I was most vulnerable and I couldn't have done that had I failed to inform myself. My advice to people who want to research topics relevant to their own experience is not to expect definitive answers. Don't look for proof because you'll never find it. You'll want to form a narrative of what's happened to you in light of your new knowledge. That's when you have to be careful in my experience because opening those wounds can get quite emotional and something that starts out as a scientific endeavour can shift in emphasis without you realising.

 

Very good points. Just an additional more general remark. In science, there is never a definitive "proof" for anything. Proofs only exist in mathematics.

[[Be...]]

Maugham, I can see that you really do know more medical stuff.  You are so very right that APS can cause blot clots in the brain and other parts of the body as well.  Also, in 2012 after seeing an Endocrinologist a blood test showed that my ACTH was about 4x above normal.  I don't know what that means and the Endo couldn't tell me.  I think I had one a few weeks ago when I was seeing double for about 13 hours and my left eye wouldn't focus.  I looked in the mirror that night and my left eyeball was veering to the left and wouldn't straighten out.  I got very dizzy too and could barely walk.  I wonder if I had a blood clot behind my eye and then it passed?  I do know the seizure I had at work was caused by the benzo's since I didn't take a dose the night before.  I usually only took them at bedtime for sleep.  I remember waking up the next day not feeling well at all and then I had the mini seizure at work the next day around 10:30am. and had to go home and haven't been able to work since.  Also at work I noticed my left food dragging and catching on the floor all the time and I didn't really think about it too much, but tried to hide it from coworkers seeing.  I think all of those problems were from being in benzo tolerance.  I just wish someone could get it sorted out why some people suffer so much being on benzo's and after they get off them.  I know all my high anxiety, etc. is from the benzo damage though.  Before I took the benzo's I was functioning quite now.  Many of us who have gotten off benzo's have inner vibrations and trembling all the time.  I know some lady on this forum who when she ct'd off a high dose of Xanax ended up with severe tinnitis and unable to walk very well. 

[[ca...]]

What are your current symptoms?

[[bo...]]

So I need evidence, medical research and literature, to bring to my doc, proving that doses of .25 and .5 mg of a benzo can produce severe and long term withdrawals. Pls don’t tell me there is no treatment out there anyway and what’s the point of going to a doc. Even if I can minimize one symptom, it’d Be helpful.

I found this, I showed it to my Dr. I think it helped.

https://www.benzoinfo.com/2016/09/05/what-is-a-low-dose/

 

[[Be...]]

candysmandy, who are you asking about with current conditions?  Quite a few people have posted on this thread.

[[Tr...]]

It's a fine balance. Ultimately, "it's the benzo", but it can sometimes be helpful to know something about conditions with similar symptoms because some of the things that help could be the same. It's not so helpful though IMO to spend too much time trying to settle on a diagnosis. For example, it doesn't change my actual condition whether I say it's benzo belly, IBS or something else. It's helpful to learn how people with IBS manage their condition and I don't need an IBS diagnosis to try some things. The treatment options only available with a diagnosis are no good to me. I'm not taking any meds for it and I'm not going through a procedure.

 

I've been there myself. When I learn something new that would have been useful to know in the past, it leads to a bunch of "what if?"s that need to be processed. This has been overwhelming for me when I've been experiencing bad withdrawal symptoms. I'm glad I set out to understand this stuff because recently I have been making good health decisions and I am starting to see the rewards. I've had to resist harmful advice given when I was most vulnerable and I couldn't have done that had I failed to inform myself. My advice to people who want to research topics relevant to their own experience is not to expect definitive answers. Don't look for proof because you'll never find it. You'll want to form a narrative of what's happened to you in light of your new knowledge. That's when you have to be careful in my experience because opening those wounds can get quite emotional and something that starts out as a scientific endeavour can shift in emphasis without you realising.

 

Very good points. Just an additional more general remark. In science, there is never a definitive "proof" for anything. Proofs only exist in mathematics.

 

Amen Maugham. Our understanding of science and what are facts are evolving as we progress. Some worship science and shame those that question. If it goes against what the MSM regurgitates from flawed and corrupt government agencies then it's apostacy! Many think that what we know today is the bottom line. That's what the generations before us used to think too. Also, when Big Pharma or any other industry or organization has the ability to skew results/omit date/chose factors that would show bias, then the science isn't really science but propaganda for profit. This isn't to say that we should be anti-medicine, or anti-science at all though--just keep it all in perspective. I like to think that most of what we understand is true. Anyway, not to get off topic too much...

 

To the OP: I was only on .18 mg of Klonopin and tapered down to .001 mg. I'm 17 months off and have intense symptoms.  I'm not a published peer-reviewed journal article though.

[[Ma...]]

It's a fine balance. Ultimately, "it's the benzo", but it can sometimes be helpful to know something about conditions with similar symptoms because some of the things that help could be the same. It's not so helpful though IMO to spend too much time trying to settle on a diagnosis. For example, it doesn't change my actual condition whether I say it's benzo belly, IBS or something else. It's helpful to learn how people with IBS manage their condition and I don't need an IBS diagnosis to try some things. The treatment options only available with a diagnosis are no good to me. I'm not taking any meds for it and I'm not going through a procedure.

 

I've been there myself. When I learn something new that would have been useful to know in the past, it leads to a bunch of "what if?"s that need to be processed. This has been overwhelming for me when I've been experiencing bad withdrawal symptoms. I'm glad I set out to understand this stuff because recently I have been making good health decisions and I am starting to see the rewards. I've had to resist harmful advice given when I was most vulnerable and I couldn't have done that had I failed to inform myself. My advice to people who want to research topics relevant to their own experience is not to expect definitive answers. Don't look for proof because you'll never find it. You'll want to form a narrative of what's happened to you in light of your new knowledge. That's when you have to be careful in my experience because opening those wounds can get quite emotional and something that starts out as a scientific endeavour can shift in emphasis without you realising.

 

Very good points. Just an additional more general remark. In science, there is never a definitive "proof" for anything. Proofs only exist in mathematics.

 

Amen Maugham. Our understanding of science and what are facts are evolving as we progress. Some worship science and shame those that question. If it goes against what the MSM regurgitates from flawed and corrupt government agencies then it's apostacy! Many think that what we know today is the bottom line. That's what the generations before us used to think too. Also, when Big Pharma or any other industry or organization has the ability to skew results/omit date/chose factors that would show bias, then the science isn't really science but propaganda for profit. This isn't to say that we should be anti-medicine, or anti-science at all though--just keep it all in perspective. I like to think that most of what we understand is true. Anyway, not to get off topic too much...

 

To the OP: I was only on .18 mg of Klonopin and tapered down to .001 mg. I'm 17 months off and have intense symptoms.  I'm not a published peer-reviewed journal article though.

 

Nevertheless, the scientific method is the only one that helps us better understand nature including our body. So I do worship science and shame those that question. The fact that some people or organizations lie about their results, e.g., pharma companies not disclosing the addictive nature of some of their drugs, is another issue. That's not science's fault.

[[Tr...]]

It's a fine balance. Ultimately, "it's the benzo", but it can sometimes be helpful to know something about conditions with similar symptoms because some of the things that help could be the same. It's not so helpful though IMO to spend too much time trying to settle on a diagnosis. For example, it doesn't change my actual condition whether I say it's benzo belly, IBS or something else. It's helpful to learn how people with IBS manage their condition and I don't need an IBS diagnosis to try some things. The treatment options only available with a diagnosis are no good to me. I'm not taking any meds for it and I'm not going through a procedure.

 

I've been there myself. When I learn something new that would have been useful to know in the past, it leads to a bunch of "what if?"s that need to be processed. This has been overwhelming for me when I've been experiencing bad withdrawal symptoms. I'm glad I set out to understand this stuff because recently I have been making good health decisions and I am starting to see the rewards. I've had to resist harmful advice given when I was most vulnerable and I couldn't have done that had I failed to inform myself. My advice to people who want to research topics relevant to their own experience is not to expect definitive answers. Don't look for proof because you'll never find it. You'll want to form a narrative of what's happened to you in light of your new knowledge. That's when you have to be careful in my experience because opening those wounds can get quite emotional and something that starts out as a scientific endeavour can shift in emphasis without you realising.

 

Very good points. Just an additional more general remark. In science, there is never a definitive "proof" for anything. Proofs only exist in mathematics.

 

Amen Maugham. Our understanding of science and what are facts are evolving as we progress. Some worship science and shame those that question. If it goes against what the MSM regurgitates from flawed and corrupt government agencies then it's apostacy! Many think that what we know today is the bottom line. That's what the generations before us used to think too. Also, when Big Pharma or any other industry or organization has the ability to skew results/omit date/chose factors that would show bias, then the science isn't really science but propaganda for profit. This isn't to say that we should be anti-medicine, or anti-science at all though--just keep it all in perspective. I like to think that most of what we understand is true. Anyway, not to get off topic too much...

 

To the OP: I was only on .18 mg of Klonopin and tapered down to .001 mg. I'm 17 months off and have intense symptoms.  I'm not a published peer-reviewed journal article though.

 

Nevertheless, the scientific method is the only one that helps us better understand nature including our body. So I do worship science and shame those that question. The fact that some people or organizations lie about their results, e.g., pharma companies not disclosing the addictive nature of some of their drugs, is another issue. That's not science's fault.

 

I agree. I think you misunderstood the point of my comment, which was agreeing with you, hence the "Amen Maugham". The scientific method is not in question as you point out. But why shame people who question the data when as even you agree, it may not be accurate/truthful (pharma etc.)?  It's the research I'm questioning, not "science" or "neurology" or "physics" (maybe quantum physics lol).  A rock can be used incorrectly but I'm not mad at the rock for killing someone. I'm upset with the person who threw the rock, or the person who let the person throw the rock. Our understanding of the world is evolving too but that's another topic. What science said was factual last century, or in the last decade, or even year may be wrong or obsolete by now.  That's not the scientific method's fault, but it certainly is the fault of naïve man's inability to incorrectly understand it, or dishonest man's attempt to hide the truth of it. That's why I question what I hear and I discern the results by reading the actual study.  So why shame me for that? Anyway, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here. Take care

[[di...]]

Nevertheless, the scientific method is the only one that helps us better understand nature including our body. So I do worship science and shame those that question. The fact that some people or organizations lie about their results, e.g., pharma companies not disclosing the addictive nature of some of their drugs, is another issue. That's not science's fault.

You argue even when people agree with you. It's funny.

 

You're arguing for the scientific method as if people are putting up arguments against it. Nobody is. The suggestion is that pharma companies and other monied interests commission studies do not follow the scientific method of enquiry but instead mimic it. You shouldn't need to be trained as an investigative journalist to get a valid read of a scientific paper but that is the reality. Rather than illuminating, these papers deal in obfuscation. The money behind these propaganda papers makes them more visible than the genuine research, too.

 

It's not "another issue", it's the entire problem. For the removal of any doubt, my problem is with people and not with science. In other words, I don't blame the scientific method. I am not anti-science. I'm not sure if you'll understand what I'm saying but I hope you get the idea.

[[Ma...]]

Nevertheless, the scientific method is the only one that helps us better understand nature including our body. So I do worship science and shame those that question. The fact that some people or organizations lie about their results, e.g., pharma companies not disclosing the addictive nature of some of their drugs, is another issue. That's not science's fault.

You argue even when people agree with you. It's funny.

 

You're arguing for the scientific method as if people are putting up arguments against it. Nobody is. The suggestion is that pharma companies and other monied interests commission studies do not follow the scientific method of enquiry but instead mimic it. You shouldn't need to be trained as an investigative journalist to get a valid read of a scientific paper but that is the reality. Rather than illuminating, these papers deal in obfuscation. The money behind these propaganda papers makes them more visible than the genuine research, too.

 

It's not "another issue", it's the entire problem. For the removal of any doubt, my problem is with people and not with science. In other words, I don't blame the scientific method. I am not anti-science. I'm not sure if you'll understand what I'm saying but I hope you get the idea.

 

Hey Diaz-e-BAM (funny name), I don't remember arguing. The post I was responding to mentioned that "some worship science and shame those that question". This implied that there are people who don't agree with worshipping science. I responded to this by saying that I worship science. The post basically conflated science's imperfections (or I should say its evolving nature) with flat out lying by some people/drug companies. I posted to disentangle the two things.

 

I know that you know that the scientific method is not the problem. I never argued about this with you. But believe it or not a lot of people on this board do think science is the problem. You're wrong, people are putting up arguments about science.

 

[[Ar...]]

Nony,  it couldn't be easier.

Read the Xanax manual for side effects including muscle spasms and extrapyramidal symptoms (tardive dystonia)

[[Er...]]

There is a potential treatment in flumazenil. Several papers, mainly Italian, described its effectiveness for post withdrawal up to several years after initial withdrawal. It seems to be standard treatment in Italy. Wondering if it'd be possible to go on medical tourism there to get it once this covid thing is over