Any medical papers proving low doses can cause severe damage?

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So I need evidence, medical research and literature, to bring to my doc, proving that doses of .25 and .5 mg of a benzo can produce severe and long term withdrawals. Pls don’t tell me there is no treatment out there anyway and what’s the point of going to a doc. Even if I can minimize one symptom, it’d Be helpful.

[Guest [pa...]]

What does "low dose" even mean? Low dose is 0.5 mg diazepam. You were taking 0.5 mg alprazolam which is equivalent to 10 mg diazepam which is not low at all.

[[Gr...]]

There's a lot of information on this website, though I'm not sure if they have what you are looking for, they might.  https://benzoreform.org/

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I’m surprised I never heard of this website. Finding it too difficult to search cognitively.  :'(

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Be aware that the 'help' you can get from seeing a doctor may cause more harm in a long run if it's more medication even it may relieze some sx temporary ly

[[se...]]

I can tell you that I have been on .25 mg 2 x daily since December and slowly tapering off (I can't handle any rapid taper).  My doctor said the same.  She has been my doctor for 20 plus years, she knows prior to this I never had any issues.

 

I am literally suffering in excess of 60 symptoms just withdrawing slowly.  It will take a full two years to come off this I am sure.  I have read so much on line I don't even know where to begin.  There are thousands of people on the web suffering just like you and many of us.  In this day an age, a Dr. could google like the rest of us and find everything he needs to know-seriously.

 

It's incredibly discouraging knowing how badly you are suffering after being successful at stopping the medication, I am so, so sorry. 

[[Re...]]

What does "low dose" even mean? Low dose is 0.5 mg diazepam. You were taking 0.5 mg alprazolam which is equivalent to 10 mg diazepam which is not low at all.

 

Yep. "Low dose" may not be a thing, particularly for the more potent benzos. I was taking .5mg and then .25mg of Lorazepam (the latter is equal to less than 2mg of Valium) for 8 weeks … I still got hit with nasty withdrawal. Most medical professionals said this wasn't possible. I'm much improved now (thank God!) but 19 months later, I'm still dealing with lingering symptoms.

[Guest [mi...]]

You don't need papers. You have them here and on all forums and videos related on the internet. It's quite quoted in BB and other sites , people in low doses and short term use still get withdrawal symptoms.

I heard many times that most of the people can quit this drugs without issues and that include long and short time users. Is the rest of us that get in trouble and worse when some are pushed to other drugs.

Most Doctors believe that less than 3 mg of diazepam is a low dose even 0.5 of K. On the same note they think that cutting 25% every other week is ok too. I wouldn't trust the manufacturers either. They have already covered their rear indicating that this drugs can't be used for more than 3/4 weeks and in special cases. So who to trust? That's why I wouldn't believe any papers from conventional medicine.

Out of the conventional medicine opinion, like in our case, every one have their own experience. Most of us are obsessed with what is going on and the tendency of monitoring ourselves all the time make it worst. That can unintentionally confuse people that come here for help.

So, everything is relative as far as low dose IMO.

Mice 

[Guest [su...]]

Does it matter what kind of dose intake of benzo are ? Benzo is benzo. Its like drinking alcohol. Wine or whiskey. Still the same. You can get addicted to light beer too.

 

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Okay, I hear everyone here. But I wish there’d be some medical documentation of this that my doc would trust.

 

I don’t want to hear anyone tell me not to see a doctor. I’m seeing one already. And I know it’s risky. I’m going there to try TMS or whatever so I know I tried. I can’t live the rest of my life this way, and it doesn’t look like I’m getting better naturally. I won’t live the rest of my life like this. Would rather die than live this way till I get old. I’m reaching five years off in two months.

[[di...]]

Hey Nony, sorry about what you're going through. Nobody should have to go through any of this. It seems that your case is at the bad end of something that is already bad... that sucks and I'm sorry again.

 

My experience of these things is that you're going to be frustrated until something clicks and you get close to full health again. Frustrated because nobody will get it like you want them to or think they should. You will be vindicated when you recover but then it won't matter. In the meantime, just try not to sweat it too much. I've had to be selective about the battles I fight in withdrawal. I lost my job in pretty shady circumstances. I lodged an appeal but couldn't follow through with it at tribunal because I wasn't well. I hate to get trampled over and my financial situation wasn't good... every part of me wanted to fight it apart from the part of me that knew I wasn't up to it. I didn't have it in me to follow it through so I dropped it. When I finally did that, it was a bigger relief than I would have imagined. Rather than feeling deflated that I was getting shafted and I couldn't do anything, I was relieved that this issue was closed. I was actually giddy with relief. Point is, just don't get too caught up trying to prove something to someone whose opinion shouldn't concern you too much. Don't let this become a burden, I guess is what I am saying. I don't know.

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You have strong point that I have a hard time internalizing.

But in the case of this doc, I am going to him for treatment for WD, so I need him to believe me abt what my illness really comes from instead of sending me for a useless battery of tests to figure out what else it could be.

I wish I could do what you’re saying in other places however. I do keep feeling misunderstood, alone, and frustrated.

[[Be...]]

Nony, ask your doc to run an ANA, anti-nuclear antibody, screening test.  Mine was positive in tolerance w/d and then I was diagnosed with Lupus.  I was on a very low dose and am really sick now. 

[[Ma...]]

Nony, ask your doc to run an ANA, anti-nuclear antibody, screening test.  Mine was positive in tolerance w/d and then I was diagnosed with Lupus.  I was on a very low dose and am really sick now.

 

I can't advise to ask for an ANA test unless someone has symptoms of autoimmunity (rash, arthritic pain, skeletal pain, etc). Benzos in general have nothing to do with the appearance of a positive ANA test.

[[Be...]]

Maugham, not true.  When I was in tolerance w/d and was dizzy and had bad anxiety I went to a neurologist and he ran an ANA test on me and it was positive.  I didn't have any of those symptoms you're mentioning.  There is such a thing as drug-induced Lupus and I believe that's what I've got now.  Autoantibodies to my damaged nerve cells.  Personally, I'm convinced that that's what's wrong with me.

[[Ma...]]

Maugham, not true.  When I was in tolerance w/d and was dizzy and had bad anxiety I went to a neurologist and he ran an ANA test on me and it was positive.  I didn't have any of those symptoms you're mentioning.  There is such a thing as drug-induced Lupus and I believe that's what I've got now.  Autoantibodies to my damaged nerve cells.  Personally, I'm convinced that that's what's wrong with me.

 

The problem is that personal convictions don't mean anything in science. You had bad anxiety and you were ANA positive. The fact that you had these two things at the same time doesn't mean they are related. That's another basic rule of science, i.e., how the world works.

[[Be...]]

The point I was trying to make is that IT IS POSSIBLE they are related.  Many people on this forum have positive ANA tests.  I'm just saying it's not a bad idea to be tested for it.  Not looking for an argument.  I'm trying to help people and I guess you don't see it that way.  This research article does show a positive association between ANA and benzodiazepines.  I have a degree in the medical field and suspect that benzo's can cause positive ANA's and this article says it can:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6054905/

 

I think everyone with benzo symptoms should get an ANA test. 

[[bo...]]

So I need evidence, medical research and literature, to bring to my doc, proving that doses of .25 and .5 mg of a benzo can produce severe and long term withdrawals. Pls don’t tell me there is no treatment out there anyway and what’s the point of going to a doc. Even if I can minimize one symptom, it’d Be helpful.

I have the same problem the only reason I go to the Dr. is for disability reasons...

It makes me feel more alone, he does say its unusual... he seems better now ... but its very frightening to know there is no real validation....and your stuck feeling awful and like a freak :'(

[[Ma...]]

The point I was trying to make is that IT IS POSSIBLE they are related.  Many people on this forum have positive ANA tests.  I'm just saying it's not a bad idea to be tested for it.  Not looking for an argument.  I'm trying to help people and I guess you don't see it that way.  This research article does show a positive association between ANA and benzodiazepines.  I have a degree in the medical field and suspect that benzo's can cause positive ANA's and this article says it can:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6054905/

 

I think everyone with benzo symptoms should get an ANA test.

 

The article you quoted says the following:

We found no evidence that most medications previously associated with ANA in specific individuals were risk factors for ANA in the general population, although statistical power was limited for some medications.

 

I have an MD.

[[Be...]]

Maugham, are you saying that you are an MD?  What does your comment, "I have an MD," mean?  I have a Medical Doctor?

 

Under the Results and other places in the Research Article it says this: 

 

Positive associations with ANA were seen for loop diuretics (OR=1.72; CI=1.03,2.88) in all adults, and for benzodiazepines (OR=2.11; CI=1.09,4.10) and bronchodilators (OR=1.83; CI=1.00,3.38) in older (ages ≥60) adults.

 

 

 

[[Be...]]

Positive association means there is a higher rate of positive ANA in people who take benzo's. 

[[Ma...]]

Maugham, are you saying that you are an MD?  What does your comment, "I have an MD," mean?  I have a Medical Doctor?

 

Under the Results and other places in the Research Article is says this: 

 

Positive associations with ANA were seen for loop diuretics (OR=1.72; CI=1.03,2.88) in all adults, and for benzodiazepines (OR=2.11; CI=1.09,4.10) and bronchodilators (OR=1.83; CI=1.00,3.38) in older (ages ≥60) adults.

 

Yes, I have medical degree. Association doesn't mean causation.

[[Be...]]

Association does mean though that there is a possibility that it could be causitive.  They are finding a link between the two so it can't be discounted. Further research is needed.  What is your medical degree?  Are you a licensed practicing physician?  I have two autoimmune disorders:  Hypothyroidism and Lupus.  Lupus is the APS-Hughe's Syndrom type.  I have an elevated procoagulant antibody in my system. No rashes, allergies, etc.  I do have skeletal and muscle pain but it didn't start until I went into tolerance w/d and then got off the benzo's.  I feel there's a link in my case between the benzo's and an autoimmune response.  What else could be causing all these symptoms except an autoimmune response is what I think? 

[[Ma...]]

Association does mean though that there is a possibility that it could be causitive.  They are finding a link between the two so it can't be discounted. Further research is needed.  What is your medical degree?  You're not a licensed doc are you?  I have two autoimmune disorders:  Hypothyroidism and Lupus.  Lupus is the APS-Hughe's Syndrom type.  I have an elevated procoagulant antibody in my system.

 

You're right, further research is needed. It's important to stress that this is just one study showing some association, which is not that strong. In science one study doesn't mean anything. But because benzos have been around for so long, we would very likely know if they caused autoimmunity. We don't know what causes autoimmunity. Unlucky genes, viral infections, hygiene hypothesis, etc. I'm sorry you have autoimmune diseases. Hypothyroidism is very common and can be treated well with medication. Lupus is less common and can be mild or severe. APS-Hughe's Syndrom can be part of lupus or a standalone disease.

 

I'm an MD but I can't give medical advice here. I will however state what I know about some of the issues here.

[[Be...]]

What do you think is wrong with many of us who are still suffering so horribly since being in tolerance w/d and then getting off?  I was quite healthy and strong until I went into tolerance w/d and then got off the pills.  I have the stand alone APS with a high Anti-beta 2 glycoprotein 1 IGM autoantibody.  Also diagnosed with Thrombophilia associated with the APS Lupus.  APS Lupus diagnosed in 2012 while in tolerance w/d.  I feel in myself this APS is a drug-induced Lupus type of damage.  I immediately got severe cognitive decline problems too when I got off.  I used to run my own lab at work and now I can't even balance my own checkbook anymore.  Had a seizure at work also in 2012 and it felt like my brain "melted" that down-like syrup running down around the inside of my skull from top to bottom.  I've never been the same since cognitively.  Some damage happened that day from my seizure.  Lost my appetite and thirst as well when I got off the benzo's and it's never returned.  I used to have a great appetite.  Also bad genes of course.  I'm desperate to know what's happened to me.  I know one thing for certain:  I am damaged from drugs.