Absolutely horrible!!!

[[De...]]

Does anyone else feel like they're seriously just dying a slow death with this taper crap? 

Ever since hitting 1.5mg of V I've been pummeled nonstop with horrible symptoms. I have the runs and bezo belly everyday, nerve pain in my back, headaches, fatigue, rapid heart rate when I stand, panic attacks with blood pressure spikes, blurry vision. Feel off balance like I live in a balloon house...its just horrible and I don't know if I can make another cut.

[[ho...]]

Hang in there. Yes, the symptoms can be overwhelming, but you've endured the longest part already. Down from 30mg V to 1.5mg - that's truly miraculous. You are a champion. Remember that the last bit is the most tricky as each cut leaves the body with such a small amount. What you're describing is more common than not. Might want to review the 3-2-1 thread. If you're having all these symptoms, for me, I'd hold until some daylight.

 

Feeling as though it's unending? Been there, done that. Had two separate tapers in four years both after minor surgeries and the post-op meds. After second surgery when I realized I had WD again from a combo of fluoroquinone antibiotics and 3 doses of Ativan, I cried for two days. Didn't have a choice and got thrown back in the snake pit. But just finished the second taper, and although still have symptoms, windows are getting longer.

 

Something to consider. Although valium helps the taper with its long half life, it can also slow the DAO enzymes. They tear apart the drugs and keep the irritating intermediate metabolite acetylaldehyde at bay. That intermediary is thought to be the cause of all the symptoms with alcohol WD.  Just info here: Molybdenum a trace mineral helps clear out the acetylaldehyde and assists the DAO enzymes. 300-400mg/day for three months then off a month. No side effects like magnesium.

 

I always write about the supplements that helped me. Stick to the mainstream 3- vitamin C, non-flush niacin, and taurine. Used all through two tapers and they consistently helped me, and I'm drug sensitive.

You can check other posts.

 

This won't last forever even though it seems that way. Just break it down to small bits of time to cope- not a day, but the next hour.  Being in the present is enough.

[[tr...]]

Something to consider. Although valium helps the taper with its long half life, it can also slow the DAO enzymes. They tear apart the drugs and keep the irritating intermediate metabolite acetylaldehyde at bay. That intermediary is thought to be the cause of all the symptoms with alcohol WD.  Just info here: Molybdenum a trace mineral helps clear out the acetylaldehyde and assists the DAO enzymes. 300-400mg/day for three months then off a month. No side effects like magnesium.

 

I always write about the supplements that helped me. Stick to the mainstream 3- vitamin C, non-flush niacin, and taurine. Used all through two tapers and they consistently helped me, and I'm drug sensitive.

You can check other posts.

 

Hothot: oh my word I did not know you went through all that  - so sorry and glad you've come through it....I love the info you provided and am very interested. Do you have a reference for that info? I just like sources so when " professionals" question me I can throw it in their face - nicely of course 

[[Ma...]]

Hang in there. Yes, the symptoms can be overwhelming, but you've endured the longest part already. Down from 30mg V to 1.5mg - that's truly miraculous. You are a champion. Remember that the last bit is the most tricky as each cut leaves the body with such a small amount. What you're describing is more common than not. Might want to review the 3-2-1 thread. If you're having all these symptoms, for me, I'd hold until some daylight.

 

Feeling as though it's unending? Been there, done that. Had two separate tapers in four years both after minor surgeries and the post-op meds. After second surgery when I realized I had WD again from a combo of fluoroquinone antibiotics and 3 doses of Ativan, I cried for two days. Didn't have a choice and got thrown back in the snake pit. But just finished the second taper, and although still have symptoms, windows are getting longer.

 

Something to consider. Although valium helps the taper with its long half life, it can also slow the DAO enzymes. They tear apart the drugs and keep the irritating intermediate metabolite acetylaldehyde at bay. That intermediary is thought to be the cause of all the symptoms with alcohol WD.  Just info here: Molybdenum a trace mineral helps clear out the acetylaldehyde and assists the DAO enzymes. 300-400mg/day for three months then off a month. No side effects like magnesium.

 

I always write about the supplements that helped me. Stick to the mainstream 3- vitamin C, non-flush niacin, and taurine. Used all through two tapers and they consistently helped me, and I'm drug sensitive.

You can check other posts.

 

This won't last forever even though it seems that way. Just break it down to small bits of time to cope- not a day, but the next hour.  Being in the present is enough.

 

Deadmenwalking, your symptoms have nothing to do with the "slowing of DAO enzymes" or other "hypotheses".  In my view, your taper was a bit fast. Did you have symptoms during the taper?

[[ho...]]

The original list of meds that inhibit DAO is in German histaminintoleranz.ch. German friend told me about it. Here's an English website that references it:

"Many people doing a benzodiazepine taper are often switched to Valium which is a DAO [diamine oxidase blocker (or histamine liberator)] and this further prevents histamine from being removed from the body." https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/the-benzodiazepine-valium-blocks-dao-and-impacts-histamine-levels-wisdom-from-yasmina-ykelenstam/

 

Histamine and DAO deficiency in the etiology of the effects of acute intake of alcohol

It is known that the acute intake of alcohol gives rise to a raise in the levels of circulating histamine, due to the fact that alcohol causes:

Decrease in the amount of enzyme diamine oxidase (DAO) in the intestinal mucosa even in healthy individuals without genetic enzyme deficiency.

DAO activity inhibition, because the metabolite acetaldehyde (alcohol) competes with the metabolites of histamine by  aldehyde dehydrogenase (which also participates in the degradation of histamine). The consequence of this competition is that the metabolites of histamine accumulate and eventually inhibit the DAO.

https://dr-healthcare.com/en/portfolio/effects-induced-by-acute-intake-of-alcohol-and-dao-deficiency/

 

Nutrients that affect DAO activity:

"The DAO enzyme is dependent on vitamin B6, B12, iron, copper and vitamin C, so it makes sense to increase the intake of these compounds."

Glutamate rises in WD/ DAO helps metabolize glutamate:

"The DAO gene is also involved in the metabolism of glutamate, an excitatory neurotransmitter found to be elevated in those with schizophrenia and bipolar disorders."

https://mthfrsupport.com.au/2016/09/dao-deficiency-and-histamine-the-unlikely-connection/

 

Molybdenum rids body of excess acetylaldehyde as supports DAO:

https://www.organiclifestylemagazine.com/best-supplements-to-kill-candida-and-everything-else-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-fungal-infections-and-gut-health

 

Hope that's helpful.

[[De...]]

Hang in there. Yes, the symptoms can be overwhelming, but you've endured the longest part already. Down from 30mg V to 1.5mg - that's truly miraculous. You are a champion. Remember that the last bit is the most tricky as each cut leaves the body with such a small amount. What you're describing is more common than not. Might want to review the 3-2-1 thread. If you're having all these symptoms, for me, I'd hold until some daylight.

 

Feeling as though it's unending? Been there, done that. Had two separate tapers in four years both after minor surgeries and the post-op meds. After second surgery when I realized I had WD again from a combo of fluoroquinone antibiotics and 3 doses of Ativan, I cried for two days. Didn't have a choice and got thrown back in the snake pit. But just finished the second taper, and although still have symptoms, windows are getting longer.

 

Something to consider. Although valium helps the taper with its long half life, it can also slow the DAO enzymes. They tear apart the drugs and keep the irritating intermediate metabolite acetylaldehyde at bay. That intermediary is thought to be the cause of all the symptoms with alcohol WD.  Just info here: Molybdenum a trace mineral helps clear out the acetylaldehyde and assists the DAO enzymes. 300-400mg/day for three months then off a month. No side effects like magnesium.

 

I always write about the supplements that helped me. Stick to the mainstream 3- vitamin C, non-flush niacin, and taurine. Used all through two tapers and they consistently helped me, and I'm drug sensitive.

You can check other posts.

 

This won't last forever even though it seems that way. Just break it down to small bits of time to cope- not a day, but the next hour.  Being in the present is enough.

 

Deadmenwalking, your symptoms have nothing to do with the "slowing of DAO enzymes" or other "hypotheses".  In my view, your taper was a bit fast. Did you have symptoms during the taper?

 

 

Yes I've had symptoms from the very beginning of my taper. This is actually my second attempt at tapering off.

I tapered off of Klonopin but only last 3 weeks off the med before I folded and reinstated...I switched over to Valium for this taper attempt. I never felt stabalized after reinstating nor at any point in my taper. It's been a rough road to say the least.

[[De...]]

Hang in there. Yes, the symptoms can be overwhelming, but you've endured the longest part already. Down from 30mg V to 1.5mg - that's truly miraculous. You are a champion. Remember that the last bit is the most tricky as each cut leaves the body with such a small amount. What you're describing is more common than not. Might want to review the 3-2-1 thread. If you're having all these symptoms, for me, I'd hold until some daylight.

 

Feeling as though it's unending? Been there, done that. Had two separate tapers in four years both after minor surgeries and the post-op meds. After second surgery when I realized I had WD again from a combo of fluoroquinone antibiotics and 3 doses of Ativan, I cried for two days. Didn't have a choice and got thrown back in the snake pit. But just finished the second taper, and although still have symptoms, windows are getting longer.

 

Something to consider. Although valium helps the taper with its long half life, it can also slow the DAO enzymes. They tear apart the drugs and keep the irritating intermediate metabolite acetylaldehyde at bay. That intermediary is thought to be the cause of all the symptoms with alcohol WD.  Just info here: Molybdenum a trace mineral helps clear out the acetylaldehyde and assists the DAO enzymes. 300-400mg/day for three months then off a month. No side effects like magnesium.

 

I always write about the supplements that helped me. Stick to the mainstream 3- vitamin C, non-flush niacin, and taurine. Used all through two tapers and they consistently helped me, and I'm drug sensitive.

You can check other posts.

 

This won't last forever even though it seems that way. Just break it down to small bits of time to cope- not a day, but the next hour.  Being in the present is enough.

 

I'm not even sure what that means! It's way over my benzo battered brain!

[[Ch...]]

SnellEJelle, good job of explaining the benefits of a slower taper.  Healing takes much longer than most tapers, as evidenced by the symptoms still present for awhile after the taper ends. Small daily cuts work wonders for many people, especially those who are super sensitive.

[[ja...]]

Deadmanwalking.... thanks for your post. 

 

I feel like boiled crap today.  I read your post and think, "I'm right on cue!".    You have done an impressive taper.  Its getting very rough for you now, but everything you posted, re your symptoms, sounds like mine and so many others. 

 

I am reassured that I am not dying, or sick with some mystery disease. 

We will get through this.  A little more hell to pay.

 

I'm rooting for you!

[[...]]

Interesting info about DAO and valium. It makes sense per my own experience.

 

Another reason for not choosing valium for tapering, the worst chioce.

 

 

[[...]]

Im sorry you are having such a rough time. You are so far down in your taper. I hope you can catch a break. I'm feeling rough too but I just cut my dose again. Do you feel better when you hold for a while? I definitely do. After two or three weeks I usually feel a lot better. I think the longest I've held is for 6 weeks. I never feel 100 percent better but I definitely have more windows. I hope you start to improve soon! ☺

[[De...]]

Deadmanwalking.... thanks for your post. 

 

I feel like boiled crap today.  I read your post and think, "I'm right on cue!".    You have done an impressive taper.  Its getting very rough for you now, but everything you posted, re your symptoms, sounds like mine and so many others. 

 

I am reassured that I am not dying, or sick with some mystery disease. 

We will get through this.  A little more hell to pay.

 

I'm rooting for you!

 

Thank you for responding! I'm sorry you're feeling like crap.

It is comforting to get some validation in our suffering even if its only from each other. I know most of our docs brush us off and think we're making ourselves feel this way.

Thank you for the encouragement I plan on seeing this taper through and staying off even if its the end of me.

[[De...]]

Im sorry you are having such a rough time. You are so far down in your taper. I hope you can catch a break. I'm feeling rough too but I just cut my dose again. Do you feel better when you hold for a while? I definitely do. After two or three weeks I usually feel a lot better. I think the longest I've held is for 6 weeks. I never feel 100 percent better but I definitely have more windows. I hope you start to improve soon! ☺

 

Sorry you're feeling rough too. I have tried holding for a little over a month now and just keep feeling worse and worse. I'm exhausted and tired of fighting this! I want off so bad and I probably rushed things with the last 3 cuts. I'm hoping I can catch a break and continue pushing on.

[[di...]]

Why don't you daily microtaper from here on? Buy a precision scale and just shave a little bit off every day. You make it a lot easier on yourself. For example 0.0025 mg a day. That would take about 1.5 year, but the road is much easier. Don't assume it's going to take much longer before you're finally healed, because you heal in the process, probably even better and faster. It's a misunderstanding that removing the drug fast (or even normal/slow speed) will make you heal faster, you heal slower if you do that. Going real slow gives the brain time to heal, you have more windows and you don't suffer as much or even avoid it.

 

Daily microtaper is the only way to go in my opinion, if you want to avoid suffering. Since I've been doing that my hell is over.

It really depends on the individual. What you suggested is really slow. While I can imagine some circumstances where such caution might be justified, I have a hard time believing that most people currently on 1.5mg of diazepam won't need to take until 2022 to finish. It might even be detrimental for some to go that slow. If you experience tolerance withdrawals like I did, then the med is making you sick whether you take it or reduce. Within reason, it is best to get it cleared ASAP. For the same reason, cut and hold has been better for me and will be for others. As long as you keep dose reductions reasonable (I agree with the 10% or less consensus opinion) and hold long enough to stabilise after each cut (not too rigid a schedule), it can work well. I would tend to feel the reductions after 3-4 days and if I did it right, I'd start to feel better than before I cut.

 

It took me a little more than 4 months to finish after I got down to 1.5mg. I took my sweet time and it's about 3 times quicker than you propose. I was coping fine in that 4 months and I have been doing well for 1 month since I jumped. If I followed your taper, rather than being free of diazepam for 1 month, I'd be still on 1.125mg diazepam not knowing that I was stringing out the process longer than necessary. 0.005mg seems more like it for an extremely slow taper.

 

Definitely keep going at the pace that works for you, I just wanted to get across just how slow that taper is and how it's not the only way to go about it.

[[Ma...]]

The original list of meds that inhibit DAO is in German histaminintoleranz.ch. German friend told me about it. Here's an English website that references it:

"Many people doing a benzodiazepine taper are often switched to Valium which is a DAO [diamine oxidase blocker (or histamine liberator)] and this further prevents histamine from being removed from the body." https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/the-benzodiazepine-valium-blocks-dao-and-impacts-histamine-levels-wisdom-from-yasmina-ykelenstam/

 

Histamine and DAO deficiency in the etiology of the effects of acute intake of alcohol

It is known that the acute intake of alcohol gives rise to a raise in the levels of circulating histamine, due to the fact that alcohol causes:

Decrease in the amount of enzyme diamine oxidase (DAO) in the intestinal mucosa even in healthy individuals without genetic enzyme deficiency.

DAO activity inhibition, because the metabolite acetaldehyde (alcohol) competes with the metabolites of histamine by  aldehyde dehydrogenase (which also participates in the degradation of histamine). The consequence of this competition is that the metabolites of histamine accumulate and eventually inhibit the DAO.

https://dr-healthcare.com/en/portfolio/effects-induced-by-acute-intake-of-alcohol-and-dao-deficiency/

 

Nutrients that affect DAO activity:

"The DAO enzyme is dependent on vitamin B6, B12, iron, copper and vitamin C, so it makes sense to increase the intake of these compounds."

Glutamate rises in WD/ DAO helps metabolize glutamate:

"The DAO gene is also involved in the metabolism of glutamate, an excitatory neurotransmitter found to be elevated in those with schizophrenia and bipolar disorders."

https://mthfrsupport.com.au/2016/09/dao-deficiency-and-histamine-the-unlikely-connection/

 

Molybdenum rids body of excess acetylaldehyde as supports DAO:

https://www.organiclifestylemagazine.com/best-supplements-to-kill-candida-and-everything-else-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-fungal-infections-and-gut-health

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

No, this is not helpful. These are not scientific studies just silly things from quack websites.