Post Benzo Freedom Withdrawal Support Group

[[ve...]]

I am thrilled to be "officially" joining the post benzo thread!  On Friday I will be a month free.  So far I have been feeling pretty well.   I have some early morning adrenaline but it is a sliver of what it used to be.  I find I am able to do more and have been cleaning and rearranging my furniture etc!  So the extreme fatigue is lifting and it feels so wonderful to be on the way back to my old self.  I did catch a cold which began on sunday with a sore throat and a dry cough that hurt.  I have been drinking lots of tea and some sucking on some cherry cough drops that really help.  Today most of the sore throat is gone and my cough is loose and I feel more like I have a cold.  Its been 2 years since I have had a cold or illness other than w/d symptoms.  I attribute this to the fact that I never left the house or spent time with other people so never caught anything.  Now that am out and about I am exposed to germs and viruses.  Guess that's the good and bad news....Anyway its a good sign to feel better that next day...guess my old immune system is kicking in. I sure am looking forward to spring and having more sun which always makes me feel hopeful and re energized!

Best wishes to all

Mimi

 

Hi Mimi.  Welcome to the Post benzo freedom withdrawal support group thread .  Congratulations on your benzo freedom and imminent one month anniversary. Sorry to read that you may have caught a cold.  I bet you remember how it was when you had kids and they would bring in all the germs without you ever having to leave the house .  Anyway, I'm also looking forward to the Spring and hopefully a little sun and end to the cold weather.  It's raining cats and dogs right now and a tornado watch to boot!

 

Best,

 

Vertigo (no more)

[[ve...]]

Ok. I have a question.  Anybody suddenly get a return of severe symptoms more than six months post taper and after most symptoms were eradicated for at least several months?As some of you know, last month, we got a new puppy who ended up having a variety of illnesses and was not housebroken.  It was a fair amount of adjustment and seemed to rev up my anxiety (a healthy puppy would have made me plenty anxious ).  It also interfered with sleep for a week or two.  Surprisingly, vertigo returned for a few days maybe ten days or so after getting that puppy. I can't prove that getting vertigo last month  in 2011 was caused by the increase in stress and anxiety.  It could just be that my ear is prone to it.  However, I can't help but think that the increase in anxiety and worry and stress of the new situation/puppy in the home probably impacted my nervous system that apparently is still quite sensitive to stress.   Maybe vertigo is just something that happens when my nervous system is overstressed whether from benzo withdrawal or something else?That being said, I think my CNS is still healing from both the benzo experience and having had Shingles just a year ago.  It's  only a year since I had a pretty severe case of Shingles which I believe was in part a reaction to the stress of the 10 month taper off valium along with the stress of having a sick parent with cancer in the hospital just weeks before I got Shingles.  I still get occasional nerve tingling along the 5th cranial facial nerve which was impacted by the Shingles virus a year ago.  I think my CNS took a beating from both. A year later, I am doing pretty well aside from the recent bout of vertigo and some sporadic increased anxiety. The whole puppy thing seems to have settled down now. Maybe we just need to go through some of these stressful things and see how our CNS handles it after 6 months,1 year, 18 months and maybe even 2 years after benzodiazepene use...

 

Just curious.  Has anyone else had a significant return of symptoms like I did last month when under unusual stress?

 

Best,

 

Vertigo

[[re...]]

I would suspect many people have symptoms return because of stress.

 

I wonder if previous injuries predispose folks to having them rev up in w/d and stress.

 

i had a brain injury; the !@#$ symptoms are the same again in w/d !@@#$%$$$$$$$$!

[[gi...]]

Most definitely you've had a resurgence of symptoms due to stress. It's not w/d, per say, but benzo damage now causes your CNS to overreact to stimuli. See my post in TC's blog.

 

I've heard of a number of people have setbacks after a year as well. Mine coincided with taking pain meds, but I wonder if it wouldn't have happened anyway.

 

I'm sure once your sleep becomes more regular you'll see marked improvement. Hang in there bud - things will subside again for you.

 

g

 

[[st...]]

My symptoms revved up without stress contributing to it.

 

Patty  xo

[[...]]

V,

 

Stress certainly reved mine up the last day or so. We had a tornado rip through here and did quite a bit of damage. I had a live wire down in the yard too about 2am the other night. My sleep issues seem to have returned (they are off and on anyway), but really last night trying to sleep was bad. I finally gave up. I ended up being up 27 hours straight. I had 3 hours sleep in the previous 54 hours. Once I fell asleep, I crashed out for nine hours and feel ok right now, but this sleep thing is really getting on my nerves.

 

I know many of you can relate..just need to get that out.

 

Hi Mimi.

 

TC

[[...]]

 

I also wanted to mention this here....

 

I talked to a neurologist (off the record of course) that I met through a friend that is a chiropractor. He told me that the CNS heals very slowly. I know we all know this........I then asked....to get a time frame and he basically confirmed what we hear a lot on these forums. He said two years for the CNS to heal is pretty "average", as long as there are not any sort of preexisting injuries. I then asked the question that has been batted around here as to what to call it? I said is it still withdrawal at this point? He agreed with WW and those of you who say that is a bad label. He basically said, no, it is basically your body "righting" itself. He also said what we had discussed...that it is reversible "damage." He stressed over and over to me that millions of people go through this and nearly every one of them heal. He said he personally has NEVER seen anyone NOT heal. He believes in protracted withdrawal, doesn't believe that we are the minority and he said too, that these drugs are pretty nasty and should only be prescribed short term or on an emergency basis.

 

I am posting this in benzo freedom support group and on my blog.

 

As I said this was all "off the record", I would be surprised if any of these guys "in the know" would actually admit to any of the above for fear of lawsuits, but this guy seemed pretty honest and apparently has seen a lot of folks in benzo withdrawal. I think if he were trying to sway me one way or another, he would not have admitted to the possibility of a two year time period. He did add that just because the CNS is "upset" for a duration of possibly two years, that this does NOT mean everyone has symptoms that long. This would explain why sometimes symptoms go and come back under stress though.

 

TC

[[Bi...]]

That's interesting stuff, TC.  Sounds like the person you talked to had some pretty good information for you.  It's refreshing to hear of someone in the medical community validating this experience and possessing what sounds like pretty accurate information. 

 

I know I've had some of the "veterans" in this tell me earlier on I should get out of the habit of calling this withdrawal, and it does make sense.  After a set amount of time being off the drug, you are no longer withdrawing from it....it's out of our systems and we are recovering from the aftermath.  Therefore, it was suggested to use the term "recovery" instead.  It really is a matter of semantics, and here on the board, we all know what we're talking about, but telling others outside of this situation that we are "in withdrawal" after months - sometimes many months passing, well, it seems all too unbelievable.  I think how I will describe it to others from here on out is that I experienced a reaction to psychiatric medication which has caused reversible damage to the central nervous system.

 

It is also positive to hear about that general 2-year time period of CNS healing...I have heard this mentioned before.  Of course some may take longer and be sensitive for a time beyond that, but it is a relief to know that for a large majority of us there is a good chance our bodies will be pretty much "good as new" and "regenerated" by the time we reach about 2 years off. 

[[ve...]]

Interesting discussion.  Yes, my own experience validates what that neurologist  said, TC.  I agree that withdrawal or protracted withdrawal are just pointers to what is really occurring, a nervous system that has been beat up and healing.  Also, one "should" in my opinion consider possible nervous system "damage" or "impact on it"  BEFORE benzos.  In your case TC, it wasn't damage by benzos or other meds but all the insomnia and lack of sleep may have done a number on your nervous system before you ever took the klonopin.  In my case, years of anxiety and stress related to my father's cancer and conflicts with my brother over it and other things, and then a couple months of insomnia put me in an "unbalanced" state before I took the first valium .  I suspect others who may have been on a/ds or perhaps some other health condition would have possibly stressed their nervous system before taking benzos as well.

 

One question i'd like to ask though is if it's not good to be on benzos for more than two weeks for limited crisis/medical management of an emergency situation (such as surgery, severe pain after accident or trauma...) then I wonder whether c/t might be better in the long run than slow taper, if comparing apples to apples.  What if two people have taken a benzo for only 2 or 3 weeks or even a month, wouldn't it be preferable to c/t and thus be on the benzo for less time?  In my case where I had only been on valium for three weeks and did a c/t, would I not have been better off riding out the vertigo and other symptoms after my c/t?  20/20 hindsight?  I suspect it's true.   In the case  where someone has been on a benzo for years or maybe even some longer number of months, then I think slow taper is the way to go, to minimize the shock to the system of a c/t. I was not willing to endure the vertigo at the time it occurred after my c/t in 2008.  Had I done so though,  my CNS would only have had valium for three weeks instead of five more months to stabilize back on 5mg and then a 10 month taper off, allbeit not a very large dose and a diminishing dose over 10 months. I was on valium for a total of 16 months, 5 of which were under 2mg.

 

 

Best,

 

V

[[gi...]]

V,

 

Stress certainly reved mine up the last day or so. We had a tornado rip through here and did quite a bit of damage. I had a live wire down in the yard too about 2am the other night. My sleep issues seem to have returned (they are off and on anyway), but really last night trying to sleep was bad. I finally gave up. I ended up being up 27 hours straight. I had 3 hours sleep in the previous 54 hours. Once I fell asleep, I crashed out for nine hours and feel ok right now, but this sleep thing is really getting on my nerves.

 

I know many of you can relate..just need to get that out.

 

Hi Mimi.

 

TC

 

You're in GA, right?? That wasn't on the news here!!  Holy cow!    Talk about a symptom rev!!

Hang in there, you know it'll calm down soon-

g

[[gi...]]

 

I also wanted to mention this here....

 

I talked to a neurologist (off the record of course) that I met through a friend that is a chiropractor. He told me that the CNS heals very slowly. I know we all know this........I then asked....to get a time frame and he basically confirmed what we hear a lot on these forums. He said two years for the CNS to heal is pretty "average", as long as there are not any sort of preexisting injuries. I then asked the question that has been batted around here as to what to call it? I said is it still withdrawal at this point? He agreed with WW and those of you who say that is a bad label. He basically said, no, it is basically your body "righting" itself. He also said what we had discussed...that it is reversible "damage." He stressed over and over to me that millions of people go through this and nearly every one of them heal. He said he personally has NEVER seen anyone NOT heal. He believes in protracted withdrawal, doesn't believe that we are the minority and he said too, that these drugs are pretty nasty and should only be prescribed short term or on an emergency basis.

 

I am posting this in benzo freedom support group and on my blog.

 

As I said this was all "off the record", I would be surprised if any of these guys "in the know" would actually admit to any of the above for fear of lawsuits, but this guy seemed pretty honest and apparently has seen a lot of folks in benzo withdrawal. I think if he were trying to sway me one way or another, he would not have admitted to the possibility of a two year time period. He did add that just because the CNS is "upset" for a duration of possibly two years, that this does NOT mean everyone has symptoms that long. This would explain why sometimes symptoms go and come back under stress though.

 

TC

 

[[gi...]]

I wonder whether c/t might be better in the long run than slow taper, if comparing apples to apples.  What I mean is a very specific case, that is if two people have taken a benzo for only 2 or 3 weeks or even a month, wouldn't it be preferable to c/t and thus be on the benzo for less time?  

 

My thoughts exactly. I've always thought that if the safe window is 2-3 weeks, why is extending a short-termer's time by tapering the best way to go?  I don't condone c/t's for people who've been on them longer than a couple months (though I've never said that to many people) but I certainly do think that extending the time on it, no matter how small the dose, isn't the smart way to go.  IMO the longer on, the more the damage.

 

I did a "slow turkey" and obviously at 2 years out still have issues but in hindsight I really don't know if I could have taken much longer than that to go off.  I see so many people here suffer the whole way down and I just couldn't have done that. I'd never say "just jump!" even though there are a few people here I'd like to say that to.

 

I'm a "rip the band aid off fast" kind of girl, though.  Case in point: we were on hubby's jet ski last summer, and when he was driving, every time we'd have to cross a wake he'd skim alongside it until it was low enough to go over safely. When I was at the controls, however, if I had to cross a big wake I'd just throttle up and head straight into it, catch air, and hit hard on the other side. He almost fell off once and read me the riot act. I said "but we got over it, and it's behind us now!"  ...which is pretty much how I handled my taper!

 

 

--------

 

I had some major shit go down last night and within a half hour my back started drumming like it hasn't in months. My head is screaming now, too.  More intrusive thoughts have been added to my overloaded brain.... ugh... here I go again!! 

 

 

g

 

 

[[...]]

Hi Ginger,

 

I am in the suburbs of Saint Louis and the tornado ripped right through my town. No fun at all. Messed up my sleep for two nights. The electric was off for a considerable amount of town too. Not a fun couple of days.

 

TC

[[gi...]]

Wow, that's tough, TC. I lived just outside KCMO in highschool and the tornadoes there were a regular occurrence.  I'm glad that's behind you!

[[we...]]

sorry TC, your recent post on your blog on how well you were sleeping was inspiring.  Dang those sleepless nights, they are awful, it's a battle to maintain sanity.

 

OK folks, I'm 42 days out of ativan and it's time for me to be here.  I also did a quick taper on remeron, off remeron 10 days ago and the results were almost the same as going off ativan - over a week with about 3hrs of crappy sleep and withdrawal symptoms coming out of every pore of my body (and some openings too, I'll spare you the details but it involves sphinters).  I finally slept two days ago with a 9-10 hrs of sleep and only 4 last night.  So I'm in the same bag as some of you.  My symptoms were decreasing pretty well until I went off the remeron.  It's like a setback of about a month.  Almost the same as benzo withdrawal, very little difference except less heart racing and more muscle burning.  I was commenting that today, for the first time in about 5 months, I did not have nausea for the entire day.  Now, that's progress....  

 

I'm glad I found this thread.  Cheerio!

[[Be...]]

 

I also wanted to mention this here....

 

I talked to a neurologist (off the record of course) that I met through a friend that is a chiropractor. He told me that the CNS heals very slowly. I know we all know this........I then asked....to get a time frame and he basically confirmed what we hear a lot on these forums. He said two years for the CNS to heal is pretty "average", as long as there are not any sort of preexisting injuries. I then asked the question that has been batted around here as to what to call it? I said is it still withdrawal at this point? He agreed with WW and those of you who say that is a bad label. He basically said, no, it is basically your body "righting" itself. He also said what we had discussed...that it is reversible "damage." He stressed over and over to me that millions of people go through this and nearly every one of them heal. He said he personally has NEVER seen anyone NOT heal. He believes in protracted withdrawal, doesn't believe that we are the minority and he said too, that these drugs are pretty nasty and should only be prescribed short term or on an emergency basis.

 

I am posting this in benzo freedom support group and on my blog.

 

As I said this was all "off the record", I would be surprised if any of these guys "in the know" would actually admit to any of the above for fear of lawsuits, but this guy seemed pretty honest and apparently has seen a lot of folks in benzo withdrawal. I think if he were trying to sway me one way or another, he would not have admitted to the possibility of a two year time period. He did add that just because the CNS is "upset" for a duration of possibly two years, that this does NOT mean everyone has symptoms that long. This would explain why sometimes symptoms go and come back under stress though.

 

TC

 

Great post, TC 

 

Thanks for sharing 

[[re...]]

I also wanted to mention this here....

 

I talked to a neurologist (off the record of course) that I met through a friend that is a chiropractor. He told me that the CNS heals very slowly...

TC

well this is so, also from personal experience i see that brain damage probably occurs too.

the symptoms of w/d are exactly the same as many of the symptoms i had recovering from a head injury/coma.

i never dreamed i'd have to go thru it twice.

 

head injury takes about two years then it's considered as good as it might get, but progress can be made from there too.

so when the CNS needs repair it seems to me that the synapses in the brain are under repair too.

i should know; been there. exactly the same d/p d/r tinnitus and others.

[[...]]

Regaudio,

 

At eight months out with only a symptom or two remaining, I have no doubt that I will heal, but I agree with you...it certainly is damage. They call it "reversible damage", but it takes too damn long to reverse, in my opinion.

 

TC

[[ve...]]

Regaudio,At eight months out with only a symptom or two remaining, I have no doubt that I will heal, but I agree with you...it certainly is damage. They call it "reversible damage", but it takes too damn long to reverse, in my opinion.

TC

 

Yes, wish it would "reverse" a little quicker .  I agree that in most cases, the "damage" is reversible.  I've watched so many symptoms dissipate and eliminate over the past year.  Like you TC, just have a couple annoying issues that are keeping me from that "100%" figure.

 

V

[[mt...]]

HI PB gang!

 

Tomorrow I will be celebrating my one month Benzofree "anniversary"! 

I am feeling really well in spite of a cold that reared its head last sunday. 

I have to admit that even having a cold is better when one is benzofree!  And I do feel better each day so its reassuring to

have some evidence that my immune system is up and running. I remind myself to thank it whenever I see myself in a mirror!

 

 

I wanted to chim in on the whole damage/ CT VS slow Tapering thoughts being posted.

 

I have always thought that the day I became benzo dependent I might as well have walked out

the door of my house, walked across the street and been hit by a truck.  Doesn't matter how long it

took me to get to the street.  Once that truck hit the only way I was going to get better was to heal.

The only way I was going to heal was to take really good care of myself and support my body and brain in

every way I could.  The challenge is that the damage that has occurrred is not always immediately known and evident.

Once the body cast comes off, there is muscle atrophy to deal with and once mobility is restored

joint and nerve issues become apparent.  Recovery is slow and because so many processes are interconnected the healing

must be accomplished on many levels and cannot move forward until certain precursors are met.

 

Pushing things along only causes more damage to your body if it is not well enough to move forward. The brain and body dictate the rate it can heal.

 

I don't believe that CT is a good option-even after short time use.  Once the receptors down regulate they are DOWN and the really bad news is that there are so many OTHER

mechanisms at work on those receptor sites-for which there is very little scientific knowledge- that recovering functionality becomes a complex and delicate dance.

Personally I believe the only way to restore functionality is with a slow taper-optimally IMO-by listening to one's body and tapering accordingly.  I chose to taper

with small daily cuts as I believed it easier on my POOR down regulated CNS and endrocrine system body.  I never listened to any percentages or taper schedules.  I used my body as a guide.

Whenever I became Symptomatic I slowed down and readjusted my taper rates.

I do believe that some can taper faster than others just as some of us can run faster than others...most likely our DNA (as opposed to time on benzo) comes into play.

 

I am working on getting some supplements on board in hopes it will help support my body to heal.  I am able to tolerate some floradix multivitamin as well as

their cal mag tonic.  All of their supplements are made from foods and herbs so hopefully I will be able to increase these over time.  I also plan on

adding Immunocal to my regime.  Tried it at 2 weeks and felt some s/x so backed off.  It does contain amino acids which are depleted in w/d but taking in supplement form

can cause some s/x.  I will try it again in 2 weeks.

 

So far I could not be happier with where I am in my recovery.  More sun, more quiet, good food, gentle walks,lots of love, patience and support

are the best medicine for me these days.

 

Thanks for being here for me and others.

Mimi

[[Re...]]

Verti/TC,

 

Make that 3 of us with a few remainig symptoms (2 for me), that just don't want to let go without a fight.  Tinnitus and insomnia, what a pair; I guess they are mine to own until "time" says otherwise.  But, they won't still my joy, because I've earned every minute of happiness after this ordeal. 

 

Retire2010 

[[we...]]

Suppose two identical people with identical healing time set you to rid themselves of benzo.  The first one c/t the other slow taper.  At then end of 4 months, one has been without for 4 months, the other just beginning to be off benzo.  At the end of six months, are they at the same place?  Maybe reversion takes 6 months no matter whether you taper or c/t.  It would make the c/t feel as if they are not healing as fast, which seems to be the popular feelings.

[[mt...]]

I think what is missing in this discussion is the suffering that one experiences over the 4 months in the above example.  I could not take a week of w/d when I stopped my xanax.  CT=  4 months of hell compared to Slow taper =4 months of extreme discomfort

... who would choose hell  ..and in some cases the possibility of convulsions or death. 

 

I think I understand what you all are saying -speculating...we heal when we heal,  it takes what it takes to heal regardless of tapering (or no) method.  However there are serious consequences to CT that I don't think we want to inadvertently endorse on this thread.

 

Mimi

[[...]]

Suppose two identical people with identical healing time set you to rid themselves of benzo.  The first one c/t the other slow taper.  At then end of 4 months, one has been without for 4 months, the other just beginning to be off benzo.  At the end of six months, are they at the same place?  Maybe reversion takes 6 months no matter whether you taper or c/t.  It would make the c/t feel as if they are not healing as fast, which seems to be the popular feelings.

 

Wellness,

 

No they would not be at the same place in most cases. It is thought that 10 to 15 people go protracted. The majority if these people have c/t. You increase your odds greatly of going protracted if you cold turkey. Some people, according to Ashton, are symptom free at the end of their taper. I don't think that is the case with many c/ts.

 

When you c/t you shock the heck out of your body. It takes a long time for the body to recover. If you taper, you can heal as you taper.

 

Of course, there are exceptions and some people won't fit the above profiles, but most people do. This is why a c/t is generally not advisable.

 

I agree with Mimi too about the differences in symptoms. I have listened to many people that CT tell me of their many ER visits and their extreme symptoms. I had some symptoms that were not too kind, but I never had the symptoms these people described. I am not short changing anyone that tapered, because I tapered too, but I think ct is a whole 'nother animal entirely.

 

TC

 

TC

[[ve...]]

I tend to agree with TC and Mimi.  Something about the c/t just seems more severe.  Also, maybe there's just more folks on klonopin, xanax or ativan here but I don't tend to see as many intense symptoms reported with folks tapering off valium. It could be that tapers off that I've seen lately are on the rapid side.  It is true that both Mimi and I were turtle taperers when it came to valium.  While we were both hit with our share of s/x, it appears that fast tapers or c/t off shorter acting benzos really seem to do a number on folks which then seems to linger for a "a longer time".  That doesn't mean other symptoms don't go away or that one can not heal or function.   We're not likely gonna see many posts from those who finished and felt relatively healed after a couple months or even weeks.  I believe it's possible but not that common to finish a taper off a benzo and be 100% functional right away.  Too many have posted early "success stories" and gotten hit with this or that symptom a few weeks later or when some stressor came up in their lives.  I don't mean to be pessimistic about recovery, just realistic.  It seems that 3-6 months seems like a good first gauge to see how one is doing after either a c/t or taper.  Then maybe 9 months to a year.  Some may not agree with what I've written above.  I am not wedded to the above beliefs, just throwing out some ideas.  I welcome other opinions.

 

Thanks for the one month update Mimi.  It seems like you are feeling quite well despite your cold .  May the healing continue.  I'd go easy on the supplements early on.  Several have reported recently that they had reactions to B vitamins, for example. I think your taper is a good model for how one can minimize s/x by monitoring oneself and tuning in to how one feels and not just following a "schedule" or impulsively tapering out of a psychological desire to be off the benzo quicker. As we've seen only too often, tapering rapidly does not prevent benzo related "withdrawal symptoms" or side effects lingering months after taper is done.  

 

Best,

 

Vertigo