6-12 month thread....

[[Fr...]]

Thanks Peace for the encouragement.  Today was rough again for me.  The anxiety and depression have been bad to say the least.  I just can't seem to stay level.  Windows and waves and over again and no telling when.  Sleep is disturbed too between sleeping well in windows and awful in waves.  This is so debilitating.  I'm constantly feeling worn out.  Are you finding relief?

 

Lisa

 

[[pe...]]

Lisa- I feel awful right now, it's not quite unbearable. I think my disappointment and expectations are making me feel so much worse. I'm sorry you're being batted around on these waves, I do find it so helpful that you have noticeable windows. Steer toward them, remember them. It's only a matter of time. Since stopping the klonopin, I sleep very well. I always lie in bed and do alternate nostril breathing right before I close my eyes and go to sleep. It is an ancient and powerful practice, for me at least. I hope your sleep and symptoms improve. I really think you're going to be one of the lucky ones. Good healing!

 

Coop- I'm so glad you are seeing progress at 8.5 months off. I'm just about two months behind you and hoping to also see some improvements  in the next couple of months, not complete healing, but improvements. I appreciate your willingness and ability to create the whole picture, the timeline of your progress. Knowing the details is very reassuring, especially when the details point toward healing. I thought the Wizard of Oz reference was very apt as I do see you as a kind of fairy godmother . I'm so glad I have all my wise friends traveling through oz with me. I would be the cowardly lion if we were casting parts tonight.

 

Another day - take THAT benzo beast!

 

Peace2 

 

[[Co...]]

Peace and Lisa...I am so serious...I was exactly where you are 6 weeks ago. I can certainly say that my most significant healing has manifested in the last 6 weeks...and up until 10 days ago I was frantic with head pressure...although I was able to see that at that time it was my only unmanageable s/x....I wish you guys lived here....I would have you stay and we could get through the next few months together....I am not on a widow 'high ' and I am not taking supplements or other medication ( only 6 mg of atenolol for b/p spikes).....I can promise you that things have gone from misery to manageable. It is not 100% ...and I really think that will take the good part of next year. I definitely feel ' myself ' coming back. It is like the difference between having the worst flu imaginable ...and how you feel after you start getting better...beat up and worn out but on the mend.

.......My heart is with you both...I really know how you are suffering...wish I could do more to help...

.love to both of you...coop...

[[No...]]

Hi Drew ... so good to hear you are having a "vacation" ... I hope you have a wonderful experience ...

[[No...]]

Good Morning ... I took the day "off" on Sunday ... needed time to get back into myself ... I had extended too far for where I am right now ... lesson learned ...

 

My sleep is improving so much over what it was a few weeks ago ... getting 6, 7, 8 hours plus some nights ... another sign that I am improving ... even some dreams occasionally ...

 

My other improvement is my weathering really rough times ... I can remember when I would weather and weather and just collapse into helplessness ... and head down the rabbit hole for days ... trying to hide from the fear ...

 

The rabbit hole has been replaced with "breaks" from weathering during the day ... the "health" fear is still there ... the other fears like "I will never get thru this" ... "I made a mistake getting off K" ... do not have much "strength" anymore ...

 

Yesterday was mostly "nerve" stuff ... head stuff ... came on again mid-morning ... waxed and waned throughout the day ... and let up early evening ... seems to be my "pattern" for a while ...

 

Will be completing month 9 on Wednesday ...

 

So good to sit here with my decaf reading posts this morning ...

 

Take Care ... Have a good Monday ...

[[...]]

Nova, you sound good! I'm ago happy to hear it!! 9 months complete! That's so wonderful!!

 

Good morning Coop, Peace, and Lisa! I pray that you gat some relief Peace and Lisa!

 

Coop, so glad you are doing well!!

 

[[No...]]

GMIT ... I am more "grounded" than I have been the past week ... still in this daily cycling of head and nerve stuff ...

 

Hope you got a good sleep.

 

[[...]]

I'm glad you've had improvement!

 

I'm in day 6 of a window and praying it stays! I slept well, after taking half a unisom. Because  I was waking at exactly 2 each morning, I knew that my body had created a new "habit". I'm trying to reset that! I feel so rested now!

 

[[am...]]

Hi Everybody - I have entered month 8 in a pretty bad wave. I haven't really had too many windows or waves throughout my withdrawal, but I certainly have been in one the last few days. Lots of negative thinking and getting myself worked up about things that are not realistic. It is almost like someone hijacked my brain and just thinks negative things and scary things. Why does withdrawal have to be some damn difficult and make us feel like we are going crazy at times? Insomnia seems to be trying to make a stand lately too and I have never really had insomnia in my entire life. It sounds like a lot of other people have had good healing in the next few months, so I hope that I can experience the same, cause I am really tired of being wired, tired and mentally beat down.

 

Hang in there everyone. We are going to win this long and grueling process ! 

[[ve...]]

I have not read this whole thread and have not been back on forum in a while, but I believe there was a survey on this forum that provided some feedback about setbacks at 9 months off being very common.  I had a setback at 9 months off, despite feeling about 80% healed at around 6 months off the valium. I had been on a low dose of valium (about 7mg valium) and was surprised at how just a few weeks on it could have such an impact on my equilibrium and on my life over the next year.  Symptoms waxed and waned in that first six months off, including some weight gain, elevated BP, insomnia, anxiety... plus I had the stress of taking care of an elderly parent who had cancer.  At 6 months out and it being summer, I felt like it was time to get back to a "normal" life, but that turned out to be a little more excessive than I was ready for (started eating more sweets, reintroduced some wine, soda, caffeine, afternoon coffee...) which unfortunately led to a setback at around 9 months out and about 25 pound gain in weight.  The doc wanted me to take a beta blocker for BP but I declined, decided to focus on exercise, low carb, better nutrition... basically a reverse of what I had done the prior couple of months.  That was not a good idea either.  I became a little too obsessed with eating low carb, exercise, vitamins, nutrition, and a "healthy lifestyle".  Although I lost about 20 lbs in the next couple months and my blood tests were all great, I had an uptick in anxiety and started waking up very early... which I later realized was likely an increase in cortisol.  Sleep difficulties are not always about having trouble falling asleep.  In my case, I was now waking up at 4:30AM fully awake, not needing coffee, but then crashing and being exhausted by noon or 1PM, often needing a nap which I couldn't always take, given work obligations.  I also became interested in protein shakes and smoothies with green powders... which all seemed like a good idea but I think I just overdid it, some of the herbs and vitamins seemed to be ramping me up and over focus on health was becoming too consuming.  Also, too few carbs seemed to be problematic.  So I reversed course a bit, added back some carbs, only did the protein shake twice a week and gradually started to feel better.  I also gave weight lifting a break for a couple months. At the same time, I had a lot of stress around an elderly parent's cancer and having to take care of him.  So I needed better coping skills for stress which I fortunately was able to acquire through reading up on some better ways to manage and cope with anxiety.  Rebound anxiety can be rough in the first six months off a benzo and also while on a benzo if tolerance sets in.  Anxiety can become worse than it was prior to taking a benzo since the same dose may no longer have the "calming" effect it may have once had.  I always knew I would need to address pre benzo anxiety at some point and this helped a great deal. 

 

Anyway, my story is posted in greater detail in the success thread section now.  I do believe that many go into their tapers thinking it may only take a few months or less than a year to fully heal and for some, that may be the case.  In my case, it was about 16-18 months before I was truly feeling better than before taking that first benzo.  Again, my situation was complicated by several factors including having an elderly parent to care of along with other stresses and challenges.  Everyone has their own particular stress that may have led to taking a benzo in the first place.  I was never surprised that healing after taper took longer than six months although at the time when I was feeling about 80% healed, I was very optimistic that I would be symptom free by the end of that first year.  Many symptoms did disappear, some came back intermittently, but there was a positive healing trajectory.  The setback at 9 months was not surprising given that first summer when I overdid things a bit and then overcompensated with too much low carb dieting and exercise....  It took a little longer than I thought it would,  but overall I feel pretty blessed and venture to guess that many of you now who are feeling some waxing and waning of symptoms, will get there in the coming months as you feel better and better.

 

Remember that what happens to one person on here is not likely to be what happens to you.  While there may be some similarity between some individuals, there are always going to be things that are different both in terms of one's own unique health and one's circumstances in the environment.  Yet it can be comforting to know that others have experienced certain things that one feels one may be going through so it's a balance of spending one's time wisely and taking things with a grain of salt .    Get rest when you need it.  The CNS sometimes takes a little more time to heal than a year.  Many report seeing a breakthrough between months 12 and 18.  It happened to me, but again, no guarantees your situation will be the same as mine or anyone else, both in terms of the good and the "bad".  Yet from my experience and others on forum, it appears that many do heal in the second year off the benzo and that can provide a little hope for those who are suffering in that 6-12 month period off the benzo.

 

Best,

 

Vertigo

[[Fr...]]

Coop - I can't wait till it gets to manageable.  Absolutely can't wait.  I'm so happy for you.

 

Nova - so happy that you're feeling better too.

 

Everyone - I am thinking and praying for you all throughout this.  Feel better!

 

Peace - we will get through this.  Your break is around the corner.

 

xo,

Lisa

 

[[pe...]]

Nova- good to hear you're feeling more grounded and glad those nasty benzo doubts are quieting down.

 

GMIT- Congratulations on your long window. What a blessing!

 

Ama- I'm so glad to see you here! But sorry to hear of your continued difficulties. Like you, I don't get a whole lot of window wave activity, just generally a constant level of symptoms that fade in and out to various degrees. What's great about this thread is the numbers. Hearing from you helps me know I'm not alone in this experience. I've got Coop also shedding light and a shared experience makes the awfulness less scary. I'm hoping we see some noticeable shifts in the next few months. Wouldn't that be nice? Are you working? New job, right? Though, not so new anymore.

 

Lisa- I hope you're feeling better today. I slept poorly last night. I woke up in the middle of the night with really loud ear ringing and feeling like a bottle of soda pop that was all shook up. I'm going to pull back on some of the supplements and see if that helps. Hoping you got some sleep and wake into a beautiful window.

 

Coop- thanks for all of the support yesterday. It is incredibly helpful. How are you today?

 

My big goal today is to get through swimming lessons with my sons. Big goal. I should be getting ready to start my new job, one month from today. But I have zero interest in rolling that ball. Maybe I'll try to read over the staff handbook, if only reading wasn't so hard. Oh,dear.

 

Happy Monday,

Peace2

 

[[...]]

Peace, my thoughts and prayers are with you!!

 

[[No...]]

Thank you for dropping by Vertigo ... another reassuring voice is welcome ...

[[je...]]

Thank you vertigo!

Nova- glad to hear your feeling a little better.

Its been over a week now and I'm still in this wave... Massive head pressure, fatigue, headache and some very weird brain sensations. I spent most of my day yesterday in bed watching too many lifetime movies. I can't remember the last time I was this bed ridden-- I just have zero energy and my brain hurts!! Had a crying spell last night about how I could let my life get so bad by getting in these stupid drugs, I feel like I've lost 3 years of my life and being part of my kids life-- so many regrets last night..... On a positive I slept 8 straight hrs.....needed it.

Peace I hope the swim lessons go well and you have fun

Lisa-- I pray you get some windows

[[Mo...]]

Hi friends ,

I made it thru vacation.  It contained mostly 100% hours and some waviness.  I was solid on the plane ride there.  Absolutely solid.  No symptoms.  The night we arrived in NYC I went to sleep with a smile on my face.  Then I woke at 2am hyperventilating and proceeded to vomit.  My brain felt like it was sloshing in my head like the ocean.  My husband cleaned up the mess and I had about an hour of crazy but used a technique my counselor had gone over with me to calm myself.  I woke up hours later fine just a sore stomach.

 

I believe this happened because my CNS was overloaded. 

 

I went thru the next week pretty much normal.  I had no noticeable symptoms to log.  When we got to the Vermont lake house I was attacked by chiggers on my feet and ankles.  The itching kept me from sleeping and created an agony I felt caused a mental spike.  I asked my husband to take me to emergency for a itching shot and felt on the edge of hysteria.  I called my general practitioner and she said to take 50mg benedryl, 600mg ibuprophen and wrap ice around my ankles every 6 hours.  I did this for 3 days.  It was unpleasant and made me wavy. 

 

The itching finally subsides and I was able to participate in the activities.  So there were solid hours and wavy hours during this time.  I had mixed feelings about coming home.  It was great to be so distracted but I knew normal life at home needed to be reinstated. 

 

On day 14 I was ready to come home, but we had a few more days and were going to ATL.  At this point my sleep began to be interrupted.  I was able to make it up but had that yuck on me until it fell off from getting up and around.

 

The day I came on the boards was our last day and I couldn't  shake it and didn't want my kids to see me.  My sis also doesn't understand my situation.  Anyways, you guys gave me some words and I was able to enjoy the boat and water play.  My only sx was loss of appetite.  Of course on the way home I felt sick again but it was on and off.

 

The day we left for home (Saturday) I was a little breathless.  We got to our plane and proceeded to sit on it because something was wrong and suddenly it hit me.  Panic.  Heat rushed my body and my sight tunnel visioned.  I began to look up and down the aisle ready to bolt.  I prayed desperately for them to let us off the plane. I was begging God for my life and mercy. I looked at my husband and mouthed panic but he didn't understand.  My counselor and I had gone over this scenerio.  I reached to find my pink notebook and looked for my statements.  1) God created this 24 hour period and nothing can happen to me that he doesn't allow.  2) There is a purpose and plan for my life.  3) Planes are not allowed to leave the ground without being thoroughly tested for safety.  4) Turbulence is fun like a roller coaster

 

So the only one that helped was the first saying.  I had to trust my life was in Gods hands.  What other choice did I have?  I looked at the ceiling and not around me.  It was tough.  Then I remembered years ago before my kids.  My husband and I were going to fly somewhere and I was nervous. I was driving thru fast food and worrying when I heard a voice deep inside say , 'I'm not gong to let you die'.  It was specific to flying on a plane. Then in my current situation my mind did this connect the dots and I'm not dying on a plane and the panic poofed off of me.  And then guys know what happened?  They said we were switching planes and to grab our stuff.  I was able to ride home in peace because it proved the other statements true to me.

 

That night I fell asleep and up again at 3am.  The cortisol rush.  I woke my husband to talk to me because I'm cool like that.. Ha!  We talked until 4:30am.  It helps me to talk over the crazy in my head.  We addressed fears, wants, needs.  It helped a little but the knot in my gut had been turned too many times.  I was weary.  Then I had one of my miraculous moments where for me God swoops in and shuts it down like a switch flipping or the puppet strings being cut.  I was able to fall back asleep and wake up with no yuck.

 

My day was pretty normal yesterday but I began to feel some panic and dread.  I fell asleep at 9:30pm and woke like clock work at 3am and dizzy has joined the band.  Right now I want to cry.  Why?  Because it's so confusing to have normal times and then have the crazy train show up.  Today I wasn't successful at overcoming.  I did all my tips and tricks.  I do believe I'm going to have a window again but I'm weary right now.  My husband leaves for work today until Thursday. 

 

I'm laying here looking to rally.  Knowing I'm miles from where I was.  Understanding others are worse, but coveting my good days my 100% hours.  I'm looking toward tonite wondering if I will sleep while a preacher is on my TV saying Jehovah Rapha the healer will heal your emotions and your body.  I have experienced this time and time again but for some reason my mind says not this time Mommy.  And I call it a liar. 

 

I wanted to give you the good and the bad.  I'm almost 9 months out.  I'm frustrated but you probably feel I shouldn't complain.  I tend to agree but right now I'm looking for my out.  I don't want to do this.  I'm tired and scared. 

 

Please send me your good words.

MommyR

[[...]]

Mommy, so glad you made it through your vacation and got to enjoy some of it! You sure are handling your hard times well, and your wonderful husband, what a great support system!

 

Be well, glad for your improvement!!

 

[[Mo...]]

GMIT,

Thank you for giving me a good word.  I read your log.  Right now I'm feeling like there is something wrong with me. 

 

My father inlaw was on Xanax for 2 years and he only suffered two or three months of withdrawal.  He used medical marijuana and still does as he was put on the meds for insomnia. 

 

Tell me this will pass.  Tell me I will heal. 

[[Fr...]]

Hi Mommy R -

 

Keep looking at all the good days you've had and your improvements.  Try to focus on that.

 

I can totally relate to how you feel.  My anxiety is a bit different though because it isn't emotion-generated - for instance, I'm not afraid to get on planes or much of anything.  My only fear lately is about healing from this mess.

 

The anxiety really doesn't come and go due to circumstance (s) - it's bio-chemically driven.  All we can do is wait it out.

 

We will heal.  It's takes time.

 

Lisa

[[Mo...]]

Lisa,

Thank you.  My mind gets so convoluted when these come on.  I am doing better right?  I started having the 100% hours in June.  That's a good sign, right?  I don't even know what I am afraid of anymore.  It's like the wind blows and this stuff grabs on to something you would never have thought of.  Yes, chemically driven.  I lay in the lap of bio-chemically driven and hug it because if it's something else I don't want it.  Chemicals and time sound so much more comforting.  Just heal heal heal.  I will persevere.  I will do it, but please heal. 

 

I had to ask my husband if I am going crazy.  How can I be asking that at this stage of the game and having so many normal hours?  I'm sorry.  Today is tough.  I'm sorry.

[[...]]

You are doing better and you are healing!! It's the horrible Benzos trying to fool you!!

 

[[li...]]

Lisa- I feel awful right now, it's not quite unbearable. I think my disappointment and expectations are making me feel so much worse. I'm sorry you're being batted around on these waves, I do find it so helpful that you have noticeable windows. Steer toward them, remember them. It's only a matter of time. Since stopping the klonopin, I sleep very well. I always lie in bed and do alternate nostril breathing right before I close my eyes and go to sleep. It is an ancient and powerful practice, for me at least. I hope your sleep and symptoms improve. I really think you're going to be one of the lucky ones. Good healing!

 

Coop- I'm so glad you are seeing progress at 8.5 months off. I'm just about two months behind you and hoping to also see some improvements  in the next couple of months, not complete healing, but improvements. I appreciate your willingness and ability to create the whole picture, the timeline of your progress. Knowing the details is very reassuring, especially when the details point toward healing. I thought the Wizard of Oz reference was very apt as I do see you as a kind of fairy godmother . I'm so glad I have all my wise friends traveling through oz with me. I would be the cowardly lion if we were casting parts tonight.

 

Another day - take THAT benzo beast!

 

Peace2

 

Peace, 8 months is very important month. When I was at month 6-7 I did not see the light at the end of the tunnel. I posted a semi-success story yesterday on the withdrawal thread and here is a repsonse that like me and Coop mimic the healing we are having.

 

"Congrats on your success! 

 

I will reach the 10-month mark in 8 days, and I must admit things are starting to consistently look up.  I didn't truly feel well until the 8-month mark, which is just insane to me.  My main problems now are intestinal issues, weight gain/increased appetite and lingering depression.  The random terror attacks and intrusive OCD thoughts have improved SO MUCH. 

 

Depression has been a major complaint for me, both during benzo use and withdrawal.  It's definitely lifted a lot in the last 2 months.  I get random bursts of euphoria that give me hope for total recovery.  There's no better feeling in the world.  "

 

Things get much better Peace!

 

Life

[[li...]]

Hi friends ,

I made it thru vacation.  It contained mostly 100% hours and some waviness.  I was solid on the plane ride there.  Absolutely solid.  No symptoms.  The night we arrived in NYC I went to sleep with a smile on my face.  Then I woke at 2am hyperventilating and proceeded to vomit.  My brain felt like it was sloshing in my head like the ocean.  My husband cleaned up the mess and I had about an hour of crazy but used a technique my counselor had gone over with me to calm myself.  I woke up hours later fine just a sore stomach.

 

I believe this happened because my CNS was overloaded. 

 

I went thru the next week pretty much normal.  I had no noticeable symptoms to log.  When we got to the Vermont lake house I was attacked by chiggers on my feet and ankles.  The itching kept me from sleeping and created an agony I felt caused a mental spike.  I asked my husband to take me to emergency for a itching shot and felt on the edge of hysteria.  I called my general practitioner and she said to take 50mg benedryl, 600mg ibuprophen and wrap ice around my ankles every 6 hours.  I did this for 3 days.  It was unpleasant and made me wavy. 

 

The itching finally subsides and I was able to participate in the activities.  So there were solid hours and wavy hours during this time.  I had mixed feelings about coming home.  It was great to be so distracted but I knew normal life at home needed to be reinstated. 

 

On day 14 I was ready to come home, but we had a few more days and were going to ATL.  At this point my sleep began to be interrupted.  I was able to make it up but had that yuck on me until it fell off from getting up and around.

 

The day I came on the boards was our last day and I couldn't  shake it and didn't want my kids to see me.  My sis also doesn't understand my situation.  Anyways, you guys gave me some words and I was able to enjoy the boat and water play.  My only sx was loss of appetite.  Of course on the way home I felt sick again but it was on and off.

 

The day we left for home (Saturday) I was a little breathless.  We got to our plane and proceeded to sit on it because something was wrong and suddenly it hit me.  Panic.  Heat rushed my body and my sight tunnel visioned.  I began to look up and down the aisle ready to bolt.  I prayed desperately for them to let us off the plane. I was begging God for my life and mercy. I looked at my husband and mouthed panic but he didn't understand.  My counselor and I had gone over this scenerio.  I reached to find my pink notebook and looked for my statements.  1) God created this 24 hour period and nothing can happen to me that he doesn't allow.  2) There is a purpose and plan for my life.  3) Planes are not allowed to leave the ground without being thoroughly tested for safety.  4) Turbulence is fun like a roller coaster

 

So the only one that helped was the first saying.  I had to trust my life was in Gods hands.  What other choice did I have?  I looked at the ceiling and not around me.  It was tough.  Then I remembered years ago before my kids.  My husband and I were going to fly somewhere and I was nervous. I was driving thru fast food and worrying when I heard a voice deep inside say , 'I'm not gong to let you die'.  It was specific to flying on a plane. Then in my current situation my mind did this connect the dots and I'm not dying on a plane and the panic poofed off of me.  And then guys know what happened?  They said we were switching planes and to grab our stuff.  I was able to ride home in peace because it proved the other statements true to me.

 

That night I fell asleep and up again at 3am.  The cortisol rush.  I woke my husband to talk to me because I'm cool like that.. Ha!  We talked until 4:30am.  It helps me to talk over the crazy in my head.  We addressed fears, wants, needs.  It helped a little but the knot in my gut had been turned too many times.  I was weary.  Then I had one of my miraculous moments where for me God swoops in and shuts it down like a switch flipping or the puppet strings being cut.  I was able to fall back asleep and wake up with no yuck.

 

My day was pretty normal yesterday but I began to feel some panic and dread.  I fell asleep at 9:30pm and woke like clock work at 3am and dizzy has joined the band.  Right now I want to cry.  Why?  Because it's so confusing to have normal times and then have the crazy train show up.  Today I wasn't successful at overcoming.  I did all my tips and tricks.  I do believe I'm going to have a window again but I'm weary right now.  My husband leaves for work today until Thursday. 

 

I'm laying here looking to rally.  Knowing I'm miles from where I was.  Understanding others are worse, but coveting my good days my 100% hours.  I'm looking toward tonite wondering if I will sleep while a preacher is on my TV saying Jehovah Rapha the healer will heal your emotions and your body.  I have experienced this time and time again but for some reason my mind says not this time Mommy.  And I call it a liar. 

 

I wanted to give you the good and the bad.  I'm almost 9 months out.  I'm frustrated but you probably feel I shouldn't complain.  I tend to agree but right now I'm looking for my out.  I don't want to do this.  I'm tired and scared. 

 

Please send me your good words.

MommyR

 

Mommyr,

 

I am so sorry for your setback -- but remeber two steps forward and one step back. I am willing to bet you $1000.00 dolars right now that you will get an awsome window that will provide you a great haeling and that you will be writting about this soon. Do you want to take me on my bet? I am obviously just kidding but I just wanted to say that because your first reaction would be "No way, I will not loose $1000.00". If I stimulated that thought, then remeber it and know that what you are experiencing are benzo lies. We are all healing!

 

Life

[[Mo...]]

Life!! hahaha.. I almosts PM'd you.  Yes, you got me laughing.  You're right.  I won't take that bet.  My 3 year old just woke up and wanted me to hold him.  I said. "Do you know how much I love you?"... He said, "Yes...  3 1/2!"  I had to smile.  Everyone and everything is 3 1/2.  It's his world.  Just like my world seems bad when I wave and good when I window.  So thankful for this board and the group. 

 

GMIT, yes the benzo lie.  Wow, I guess it's a good lesson that even with a lot of 100% hours we can still be symptomatic but it doesn't change the fact that healing is taking place. 

[[...]]

Yes! Its tricky and sucks!! I've felt good for 6 days now, trying not to think about it not lasting cause I want to stay positive!!