is there a DR in the house...

[[Mo...]]

Thank you Spartacus, so interesting, i could listen to you for hours.

claudia xxx

 

guitarman, keep this thread going please, i want to hear more.

[[sp...]]

Hey Claudia,

 

You are very kind.

 

In real life I could always be depended upon to "go off on one".

 

I suppose I must be healing.

 

With love, spartacus

 

PS We have yet to discuss the unlicensed drug market presently dwarfing the use of prescribed drugs...complementary or alternative medicines, including vitamins, minerals and the hair of the dog. Everyone here will have a shedload of these tucked away somewhere...I have

[[gu...]]

Morreweg, I enjoy the discussion as well but some days my brain is not up the the standard required for it and words just elude me  lol

 

Spartacus, I know what you're saying. When I was little I admired an uncle of mine who is a doctor greatly. Maybe I would have been a doctor myself hadn't it been because I was playing the guitar all day and other distractions...

One days I saw a film, I don't remember the name of anything, it was on the telly, very very succinctly the plot was about an emergencies doctor faced with a dying man with his brain swelling. What they needed to do was basically drill a hole in the skull to ease the pressure. They called a brain surgeon or neurologist but was unavailable or too faraway, he couldn't make on time. The patient died because the said doctor refused to treat him because he wasn't qualified to perform that procedure.

I was a bit outraged by this and when I saw my uncle I told him about the film and asked what he thought. He said the A&E doctor was right because he could have got in trouble if he had intervened and the patient died anyway, he could have got sued.

So, in my little head I was thinking how about the Hippocratic oath and that? So a legality was more important than saving the man's life. Well, it seems like it.

 

It's also sad and worth a mention that because of the globalization and standardization of legal frameworks, in this case in heath thanks to the world health organization, there's nowhere in the world where doctors could have a different approach to training, or guidelines for prescribing, or more independence.

Anything that falls outwith the realm of what the industry has co opted is either illegal or quackery depending on again the legal framework. In the US for instance the FDA has made illegal a number of herbs, not herbal medicines but the actual plant or shrub.

 

We as population spend years and years in education and yet learn nothing about human health, nutrition, and why not medications, I mean they are present every and any where in our lives from a very early age.

It's crazy to me that we are willing to consume stuff we don't have the slightest clue of what it's made of, how it works, interacts and affects the chemistry in our bodies, etc.

I'm baffled, I've been like that for most of my life. it seems like what it takes o awaken to these facts is to go through the horrendous experience that it is benzo withdrawal...

 

Well, my post is a bit all over the place, so forgive my jumping around. 

 

[[sp...]]

Hello guitarman,

 

The Hippocratic oath rests upon, "First do no harm".

 

A doctor operating outwith their area of competence is, by definition, incompetent...and negligent.

 

I was much involved in pre-hospital emergency care. It's a very, long time since taking out an appendix on a kitchen table with a rusty penknife has been deemed acceptable.

 

Drilling a hole in a head on the other hand, just about makes it into the arena of emergency care, something that could be undertaken by anyone who knows the drill . A Black and Decker will do it, and you don't need an anaesthetic.

 

Similarly, if a near-term pregnant woman is, for example, decapitated in a motor vehicle accident, irrefutably dead, it is deemed acceptable for anyone with any training to attempt an impromptu Caesarean section to save the baby.

 

Important to know I feel.

 

Take care

 

spartacus

[[sp...]]

PS guitarman

 

"It's crazy to me that we are willing to consume stuff we don't have the slightest clue of what it's made of, how it works, interacts and affects the chemistry in our bodies, etc."

 

This would be the completely unregulated and untested alternative or complementary medical treatments then, plus all the food supplements vitamins, minerals, probiotics, herbs...and of course Chinese medicines.

 

Mankind has a very long history of being "willing to consume stuff"  

[[gu...]]

PS guitarman

 

"It's crazy to me that we are willing to consume stuff we don't have the slightest clue of what it's made of, how it works, interacts and affects the chemistry in our bodies, etc."

 

This would be the completely unregulated and untested alternative or complementary medical treatments then, plus all the food supplements vitamins, minerals, probiotics, herbs...and of course Chinese medicines.

 

Mankind has a very long history of being "willing to consume stuff"

 

I know what you mean with the willingness to consume stuff issue, but...if we take herbs for example, as there have been civilizations that used these things for possibly millennia I would take a punt in assuming that there is at least a long historical backing to their effectiveness, risks and effects.

After all the pharmaceutical science is no more than isolating chemicals from plants and minerals believing that in this form they would be more affective. Remember the alchemists. I think for the most part they have missed the point.

Unfortunately a lot of the knowledge about home and natural remedies has been lost in the west in particular and we've become absolutely reliant on modern medicine and pharmaceuticals and nearly no one would trust grandma in how to get rid of a nasty cold for example and instead go for some strong anti flu, vitamin C, caffeine, ephedrine based meds, because we are too busy and don't want to risk looking sloppy at work or something.

It also seems that anything older than late 20th century is obsolete and useless. The word "traditional" gets a very bad rap, we must move forward constantly no matter forward to what as it seems.

Yes, you're right we are a society of easy fix mind set and that's our downfall when it comes to health. But we need to also wonder where this comes from, it may well be an innate human trait, but no question it has been exploited to the max.

 

Good discussion. 

 

Take care now

 

 

 

[[sp...]]

Hey guitarman.

 

Lets, for the sake of the discussion, stick with drilling holes in heads.

 

Trepanists have a long, glorious and extant history.

 

There are cave paintings showing someone opening up a window to the world in a mate's head, and the remains of trephined skulls have been found throughout recorded time.

 

Even in my relentlessly misspent youth, the film of the dedicated advocate of trephining who DID actually take a Black and Decker to his own head was memorable...and is probably still around today because the advocates of drilling holes in heads, for mystical or recreational purposes as opposed to medical, are still with us.

 

So trepanists were the first surgeons. Despite a history as long as your arm...and it does help by the way to have a long arm if you decide to balance suture closure with the odd DIY burr hole...there is no evidence for the efficacy of this procedure except for medical purposes. So, we inherited the procedure, sometimes adapted the purpose, but anyway carried blithely on.

 

And the same is necessarily true of the many drugs originating in folk lore, plants and animals. They were originally used for symptom relief with little reference to causation(very like most psychotropics ). We extracted the active principals, called them drugs and applied them to diseases...from foxglove leaves to dig folia to digoxin. Few, with the possible exception of arsenic, fell by the wayside...pharmacopoeias don't contract.

 

Its the next step that has arguably led to trouble...the development of the ability to synthesize the active ingredients of naturally occurring compounds and then to try to improve upon nature, to give them "added value", economically speaking at least. And then to experiment with unnaturally occurring compounds.

 

Attempts to improve on Nature gave us drug companies and they have given us shedloads of drugs. Synthesis is now the name of the game. Make a molecule, see what it does, match it with an existing or invented disease and then encourage some sort of pseudoscientific justification of its properties. Its all a bit a**e about face and in some ways a throwback to times gone by, but inevitable perhaps if you have enormous quantities of snake oil to sell.

 

So, we may have systematised snake oil production since Grandma's time, but it's recognisably the same game. Dedication to the game is either a human triumph or a human failing.

 

Take care,

 

Spartacus

 

PS About the alchemists...gold is still used routinely in the treatment of arthritis. 

 

 

[[...]]

PS guitarman

 

"It's crazy to me that we are willing to consume stuff we don't have the slightest clue of what it's made of, how it works, interacts and affects the chemistry in our bodies, etc."

 

This would be the completely unregulated and untested alternative or complementary medical treatments then, plus all the food supplements vitamins, minerals, probiotics, herbs...and of course Chinese medicines.

 

Mankind has a very long history of being "willing to consume stuff"

 

I know what you mean with the willingness to consume stuff issue, but...if we take herbs for example, as there have been civilizations that used these things for possibly millennia I would take a punt in assuming that there is at least a long historical backing to their effectiveness, risks and effects.

After all the pharmaceutical science is no more than isolating chemicals from plants and minerals believing that in this form they would be more affective. Remember the alchemists. I think for the most part they have missed the point.

Unfortunately a lot of the knowledge about home and natural remedies has been lost in the west in particular and we've become absolutely reliant on modern medicine and pharmaceuticals and nearly no one would trust grandma in how to get rid of a nasty cold for example and instead go for some strong anti flu, vitamin C, caffeine, ephedrine based meds, because we are too busy and don't want to risk looking sloppy at work or something.

It also seems that anything older than late 20th century is obsolete and useless. The word "traditional" gets a very bad rap, we must move forward constantly no matter forward to what as it seems.

Yes, you're right we are a society of easy fix mind set and that's our downfall when it comes to health. But we need to also wonder where this comes from, it may well be an innate human trait, but no question it has been exploited to the max.

 

Good discussion. 

 

Take care now

 

Agree guitarman

 

I think it's very arrogant of doctors calling what they practice Conventional medicine and everything else Alternative. Shouldn't it be the other way around?   

 

After all Alternative med has been around for thousands of years, Conventional medicine is so new,and the Emergency medicine started in 1960.

 

But when it comes to the medical profession and arrogance they go hand in hand.

Be well.

D21

[[sp...]]

Hey D21,

 

Real doctors call medicine, medicine...and they don't eat quiche...babies for breakfast sometimes but not quiche.

 

Take care,

 

spartacus...still human after all these years

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

So, I get a form letter in the mail the other day from my HMO informing me that my cholesterol medication, when refilled, will be changed from pravastatin (Pravachol) to atorvastatin (Lipitor). That's it. Just like that. No reason why. Nothing in way of explanation. At the bottom of the letter is my doctor's name, "Sincerely, xxxx xxxxxx". A computer generated letter.

 

Normally I wouldn't have given the letter a second thought. I'll bet that most don't. But this whole benzo thing...well, you know.

 

I have a history with statin drugs. My doctor and I have worked together for a long time to find one that doesn't elevate my liver enzymes to the point of alarm. Finally we ended up sticking with pravastatin because it only slightly elevates the enzymes.

 

Okay. I email my doctor asking him, "Why?!" And he responds with some sort of fuzzy nonsensical answer basically telling me to just take the new statin and don't cause a fuss. I have yet to get back to him about this.

 

Just reading this thread I can feel my face burning. I'm not wise to the ways of the medical world or healthcare in general but from what I've read on this thread I just know the change in my medication has nothing to do with me and everything to do with "them".

 

Correct me if I'm wrong. Please. I want to be wrong.

 

 

 

koko

[[ig...]]

Hi,

Koko,

I wonder if docs get a kickback from lipitor and not from the other drug. Or a bigger kickback.

It's pretty harsh that the doc had worked with you and now is behaving badly.

Iggy 

[[...]]

That's just the thing, Zig.  That we've been working on this for a couple of years and finally seem to be getting somewhere and now this?

 

Pfffttttttttt.....................

 

 

 

k 

[[sp...]]

Hello koko,

 

The evidence for benefit from pravastatin is less than is available for other statins. The last large trial it was used in(ALLHAT)failed to show any benefit at all, in terms of all-cause mortality and the frequency of heart attacks.

 

Just saying.

 

Take care, spartacus

[[ig...]]

If Koko said the other drug was not elevating her liver enzymes as much, I believe her,

plus, drug companies have been known to skew drug tests to their advantage.

Koko, I suspect lipitor costs less for the insurance company and that's the bottom line: profit.

 

Just a thought.

Ziggy 

[[sp...]]

Hello Ziggy,

 

Lipitor is more expensive than pravastatin. Parts of the good old NHS once tried to engineer a wholesale changeover to pravastatin because it was cheap.

 

It failed on clinical grounds.

 

Take care,

 

spartacus

 

 

[[...]]

I'd be more than happy to take some other statin as long as it doesn't damage my liver. It doesn't matter because I'm not being given a choice.

 

What I was trying to convey is that this letter I received was not personal. As in, made especially for me. It was a form letter that I'm sure was sent out to all of the HMO's patients on pravastatin. And quite possibly not limited to only patients on pravastatin but to others on different statins, as well. There is no way I can be certain of that but if you could see the quality of the letter..... it looks like junk mail.

 

 

koko

[[sp...]]

Hello koko,

 

I'm sorry if this discussion is upsetting to you...your doctor's graceless approach to an individual's medication cannot be defended.

 

And believe me I have no interest in defending the actions of any individual doctor contributing for whatever reason to the mass-marketing exercise that has overtaken medicine. I would happily string my own up by their thumbs.

 

But, it wouldn't help. Only in seeing and understanding the wider picture is there hope of change in a situation that threatens us all....or from which those of us here have already suffered.

 

And that's why your post is interesting.

 

Pharmaceutical companies long ago realised that treating the sick provided a very limited market. These people stubbornly died or recovered, one way or another were lost to the market. Drug companies have known for decades that the future for their industry lay in treating huge demographic groups of well people...for life.

 

Statins are arguably their most successful runner in this field so far...and amongst statins, Lipitor is the gold medal winner.

 

Look up any list of the most frequently prescribed drugs worldwide and statins as a class will be in first or second place. Then look up the drugs that are costing the world most in any given year...these may not be prescribed most often but they are expensive...and, particularly in the States, you will inevitably find Lipitor. It is still the statin that takes the lion's share of a very lucrative market.

 

This could reflect clinical excellence and achievement, or it could be the result of cynical marketing. It would be more than interesting to know which.

 

Take care,

 

spartacus

[[...]]

No, Spartacus, I'm not upset like this ----> 

 

My feelings are more like this -----> 

 

Sorry if I came across as upset. I didn't mean to give off that vibe. I'm enjoying this thread very much. Most especially the exchanges between you and guitarman.

 

I do think that receiving a form letter (one side in English, the other in Spanish) regarding a change in medication was in poor taste though. 

 

 

koko

[[gu...]]

Koko and Spartacus, I've been away from the forum a few days so I wanted to get back to you on this topic though a bit late.

Anyway, bear in mind my opinions when it comes to modern medicine and the use of pharmaceuticals in particular with an open mind and patience of a tibetan monk, I'm a bit of a pariah in my beliefs and understandings, but still I do my research so, I'd say it's mostly as an informed opinion as it can be.

Nevertheless, I still regard highly the work of emergency doctors for instance, and some family doctors as well, fewer and fewer of these unfortunately as they're being completely swallowed by phrama inc.

 

Spartacus is absolutely right about treating people for life spurred by the pharma clique. And statins are no exception. I'm not going to get into some sort of medical advice for obvious reasons but to just state my opinion as I said above.

As I see it cholesterol is generated by the body as a protection against cellular waste, toxins, etc in our system due to the low cortisol production by the adrenal glands. These are under functioning. It's hard for me to believe how the medical profession overlooks the adrenal function and their importance in the production of crucial steroid hormones and neurotransmitters, cortisol being one of the former. So, what I've found is that when adrenal function is low, and we people with anxiety could take this as a given, it doesn't produce enough cortisol to counteract inflammation in tissue that becomes more and more acidic, so the liver produces cholesterol to compensate. I know it sounds crazy but cholesterol is a protection as I see it. I know it creates other problems but only lowering cholesterol levels is far from sorting anything out.

 

There's one thing that's for sure, in modern medicine the underlying causes are very often overlooked. Pretty much all cronic health conditions' causes are classified as of unknown origin, or genetics, or some mysterious bug that attacked us. Therefore they can only treat the symptoms rather than addressing the cause, and cholesterol is one of them. Here we go back to the treating people for life topic.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying you should stop taking your meds by any means as it may cause imbalances because your body adapts to function with those drugs in its system, same example with benzos and pretty much all other synthetic drugs. So a cautious and planned approach is necessary, not chuck everything down the toilet in one go. I think we need to educate ourselves in regards to our health, this is the only way to move forward in my opinion.