please help me to think through what to do in this social dilemma

[[sw...]]

ok, sorry this is so long, but hopefully someone will humor me. 

 

This isn't exactly benzo related but there is no doubt that withdrawal is clouding my ability to think this situation through or to feel confident in my own conclusions.  I would truly appreciate any thoughts, advice or insight.  In a nutshell, I am highly committed to a drama free lifestyle and am pretty successful at it, but a high drama person has laid a turd on my doorstep and I've got to figure out how to deal with it and thinking is one of my weaker suits, right now.

 

THE BACK STORY

 

Basically, I've been friends with someone in a neighboring city for about 6.5 years.  I was concerned that when we started dating it might endanger our friendship, but in the end her moving to my city and my actually getting to know her was what killed it (whether we had dated or not). 

 

She has a really severe medical condition where she has daily seizures, is on heavy medication for it, and is in a great deal of physical pain at all times.  We had been casually long distance dating (not committed, but we talked and skyped a lot and saw each other 1-2 a month), so when she became suddenly homeless for reasons outside her control, her only resource was to come stay with me.  Thankfully, I drew some lines as to how far out relationship would go while she was staying with me and was so highly dependant on me to take care of her, because otherwise I am convinced she'd be telling people I sexually abused her while she was in my care even though she came on to me constantly her entire stay.

 

She was really sick and realistically needs 24 hour home healthcare workers, so even though I deeply in withdrawal I was basically waiting on her hand and foot (helping her to bathe, running her errands, all cooking and dishes, etc.), got her on food stamps and medicaid, got her SSI check increase from $580 to $720, shared my own food stamps and resources with her while she lived in my living room, took her to the ER three times, did medical specialists shopping and took her to appts, etc.  On the whole, I really enjoyed her company but I started noticing a hell of a lot of red flags that, while bothered and weary, I gave her probably more of a pass on than I should have because she was so sick and mentally impacted by both the seizures and the medication.

 

The sort of red flags I noticed were that she would point blank and very needlessly lie to people, that she spoke very negatively about all of her friends behind their backs, she would share deeply personal information that people had entrusted her with (childhood sexual abuse, secretly dying of cancer, etc.), and worse still, seemed to be actively recruiting me (or whoever she was talking to) to share her negative opinions. 

 

Though I always noticed that most of the negative stuff she said about people didn't really make a lot of sense to me on a deeply irrational level, I am now sorry to say that even though I questioned what she was saying that she did at least somewhat color my opinion of some common friends even if I took it with a grain of salt.  And while I am pleased to say that my math skills were good enough to immediately question "if that is what she is saying behind these people's backs, then what is she saying about me?", I am sorry to come to realize just how severely correct I was.

 

THE DILEMMA

 

So, there are two closely related problems for me, now.  Basically our relationship ended two weeks ago when she woke me up at 6am on a Saturday with a string of 8-10 texts that didn't make a lot of sense, but the basic gist of which was that she had been deeply disingenuous with me when she needed me but now that she didn't she actually had a lot of problems with me and my perceived personality flaws, and that she had discussed these problems widely with a number of common friends and they (supposedly) all agreed that she was right and I was deeply flawwed.  Then she had one of her friends who was with her send me a really nasty and rude text.

 

So, my dilemma is what if anything, I should say to common friends?  Largely, most of the people we know in common aren't that close to me, but a few of them are people I care about, and especially there is one in particular whose opinion I do truly care about. 

 

So far as I can tell (though this is exclusively based on her texts that morning and my knowledge that I've seen her go on smears of other people- I have yet to discuss this with anyone local) she has more than likely told everyone we know in common a lot of very unflattering things about me, probably all of highly questionable veracity.  I feel like if I start asking them about it, that might just be stirring the hornet's nest, it might come off as my being a drama person since there is a breakup involved, and it might backfire and reflect poorly on me because I can't think of a diplomatic way to describe the way she is behaving.

 

I don't really believe in talking badly about someone to common friends, and I guess that I feel like trying to explain that situation would come way too close to it and might make the other party feel awkward.  And again, though it's not the point since there is a breakup involved I might just sound like a bitter ex, and worse, come off like I'm the jerk.  The problem there, of course, is that she doesn't have this hang up, at all, and has in all likelihood smeared me.  I am also concerned because she seems to lie as naturally as she breathes.

 

So, there is that situation in general, but then there is one person whose opinion I do care about deeply but I'm even less sure what to do about because the two of them are good friends on many levels.  I will say that when she was staying with me he actually called me after talking to her to make sure everything was ok because he said that she was apparently saying negative things but that as far as he could tell I was going way out of my way to help her while she "was just giving me drama", and it meant a lot that he saw that just from her own words before he even spoke to me.  So, I am hopeful that his eyes are relatively open, but they seems to just really enjoy each other so much that I'm concerned to say anything.

 

She seemed to always be jealous of our friendship (kind of like she wanted us both individually for herself but didn't want us to be friends separate from her) and certainly said several negative things (that I now deeply question) about him to me, and so far as I can tell she did the same about me to him.  He is also one of the people I watched her point blank lie to.  (She told him she had to end the call because her mom was on the other line and then switched over and started talking to another friend, and then later said he couldn't have "handled" it if he knew she was taking this other guy's call- not true, but even if so why not just say "I've got a call I've got to take" without lying?).

 

So, there, again, I'm afraid to discuss it with him, because especially in her case if it ever got back to her it would get so much more ugly than it currently is, but at the same time I'm afraid to not say anything because I suspect she is trying to poison our friendship, which I should have is something she has already done to our only other close common friend.  I might look poorly in his eyes in trying to explain any of this to him.  I might actually be ok not explaining any of it since I'm not sure that he's buying any of it even if he enjoys their friendship, but I don't know.

 

Anyway, sorry that's kind of long, but I didn't know how to go about making it any shorter.  I'm afraid that, even though I feel like I'm thinking far more clearly than I have in a while, I've just had so much cog fog during withdrawal that I question absolutely everything that I think.  I have lost so much sleep thinking about this that I hope if nothing else that typing it will make me feel better, but I also hope that some outside minds can help me think thing through.

 

Thanks in advance.

[[ja...]]

Hey Sweet G

 

Wow that's terrible. That's the kind of stuff that really gets me pissed off. I'm the same as you Drama Free. But here's the thing. Most aren't. Peeps like the Drama. Idk why. But its just something many do. Its sounds like you took real good care of her. And in return you got smeared and Lied about.

 

As for your other friend..This is what I think. If I were you I would stay far away from the deceit this girl has brought around. I would definitely talk to your other friend and let him know whats up..Tell the truth let him know what you did just here. I tell you this.If he doesn't believe you well then cut him loose to. I just think when there is true friendship they know you inside and out.. You sound like a true person and if the Lies this other girl is spreading is over shadowing that then those other peeps don't deserve you as a friend.

 

The other thing If I was you. And like I said I'm a drama free woman myself. I would still lay the Smack Down on that girl who took advantage of you.I mean really!!!!! Just kidding Sweet G .Im not telling you to be physical.But Id def be telling her What Time It WAS ...

 

It sounds like you really care about this other friend and that's really where I would put my energy.Just explain to him the craziness this girl has brought on you..I'm sure he will know your not being Drama filled.

 

Good Luck Sweet G...

Oh I hope this chick is out of your house now!!!

 

~Jenny

[[jo...]]

Hi Sweet G

 

The goal is to remove the turd from your doorstep in a healthy way, so it deosnt come back or leave any skid marks.

 

Sometimes, the friends we don't see often, can show their true colours once we have spent some time with them.

 

She sounds like a source of stress, a potential encumbrance on your recovery and therefore a negative influence which needs to be removed.

 

I find it hard to believe she is actually homeless. The reason I dis-believe this is because surely, no one who needs 24hour home healthcare should be allowed to be homeless, that would come under human rights violations or something like that. I think she should apply to be housed as a priority. Many homeless peole are too low to help themselves. I had a mate who would not have moved off my sofa if I hadn't made phone calls for him, now he is sorted with a home, he had mental probs too, three serious suicide attempts in one year.

It is not right for totally dependent peole to be homesless even if they need to be put in supported housing.

Could she be lying about homelessness. I know things are tight, but not so tight that people requiring 24hr nursing care are left without a home.

The red flags are a warning that needs to be examined.

 

I noticed were that she would point blank and very needlessly lie to people, that she spoke very negatively about all of her friends behind their backs, she would share deeply personal information that people had entrusted her with (childhood sexual abuse, secretly dying of cancer, etc.), and worse still, seemed to be actively recruiting me (or whoever she was talking to) to share her negative opinions.

In withdraswal of benzo recovery, all negative influences need to be removed, well, they do in non withdrawal, but moreso in withdrawal. Don't let her drag you down or make you feel guilty.

 

Though I always noticed that most of the negative stuff she said about people didn't really make a lot of sense to me on a deeply irrational level, I am now sorry to say that even though I questioned what she was saying that she did at least somewhat color my opinion of some common friends even if I took it with a grain of salt.  And while I am pleased to say that my math skills were good enough to immediately question "if that is what she is saying behind these people's backs, then what is she saying about me?", I am sorry to come to realize just how severely correct I was.

 

the negativity behind peoples back is more reason to get rid of her, she is a blight on your recovery.

 

THE DILEMMA

 

So, there are two closely related problems for me, now.  Basically our relationship ended two weeks ago when she woke me up at 6am on a Saturday with a string of 8-10 texts that didn't make a lot of sense, but the basic gist of which was that she had been deeply disingenuous with me when she needed me but now that she didn't she actually had a lot of problems with me and my perceived personality flaws, and that she had discussed these problems widely with a number of common friends and they (supposedly) all agreed that she was right and I was deeply flawwed.  Then she had one of her friends who was with her send me a really nasty and rude text.

These are not friends, she or they don't respect you. Jettison excess ballast overboard and make room for real friends.

 

Your real friends will not fall for this bullshit, any that do, say your goodbyes to.

 

The way to deal with people like this is to remove them from your life. Even if it means you telling then that you do not need friends who believe malicious comments spread about you.

 

Surely, if she has behaved this way to you, she will do it again, and most likely, has done it before, and you will probably find that most people don't like her, but tolerate her. People are notorious for tolerating abusive people and giving them too much room.

 

If any of your friends are 'good friends' with this nasty behaved person, then I would question whether you want them as friends. Bitchy people don't make good friends, they don't know how to, so I would question the motives of anyone, reagardless of whether they are your friends or not.

 

Acting out jealousy is a big red flag. Jealousy spells insecurity in a person, insecure people are not good to be aruond as they drain energy from others and are generally a negative influence.

 

The more I read this post, the more sure I am that you need to remove this person, and anyone who 'likes' her' out of your life.

 

Don't be afraid, you have nothing to be afraid of. You did nothing wrong. In your heart you know this. Any of your other friends, who are decent will understand.

 

This woman sounds like poison, and willl have plenty of accquaintances to shelter her while she waits for her own accommodation.

 

don't ever worry about making a long post. The more information you give us, the more we can help.

 

When it comes to cog-fog and relationships, your heart is the best indicator. If something feels wrong about the way you are treated by others in your heart, then it usually is.

 

I lost a good friend in withdrawal because he feels like I used him when he gave me loads of help at the beginning of the taper. Also, he makes out that I say the wrong thing to him, like I am aggressive and I feel like I have to obsess over everything I say in case it comes out wrong.

I say the same things to others and no one picks me up on it.

He is also a stress head and snaps easily and resents me responding to the snappiness until after he has calmed down, so I have to sit in an awkward manner seething with resentment.

I could not be doing with this, so I don't see him hardly now.

 

Don't lose any more sleep. Get rid of negative people from your life, and all those friends who claim to be friends of this negative person. Also, get rid of anyone who believes her lies over your genuine kindness and honesty.

 

Hope that helps.

[[sw...]]

Hey Sweet G

 

Wow that's terrible. That's the kind of stuff that really gets me pissed off. I'm the same as you Drama Free. But here's the thing. Most aren't. Peeps like the Drama. Idk why. But its just something many do. Its sounds like you took real good care of her. And in return you got smeared and Lied about.

 

As for your other friend..This is what I think. If I were you I would stay far away from the deceit this girl has brought around. I would definitely talk to your other friend and let him know whats up..Tell the truth let him know what you did just here. I tell you this.If he doesn't believe you well then cut him loose to. I just think when there is true friendship they know you inside and out.. You sound like a true person and if the Lies this other girl is spreading is over shadowing that then those other peeps don't deserve you as a friend.

 

The other thing If I was you. And like I said I'm a drama free woman myself. I would still lay the Smack Down on that girl who took advantage of you.I mean really!!!!! Just kidding Sweet G .Im not telling you to be physical.But Id def be telling her What Time It WAS ...

 

It sounds like you really care about this other friend and that's really where I would put my energy.Just explain to him the craziness this girl has brought on you..I'm sure he will know your not being Drama filled.

 

Good Luck Sweet G...

Oh I hope this chick is out of your house now!!!

 

~Jenny

 

Thanks.  Yes, she moved out of the house close to two months ago, now.  While she was here she was all about how awesome I was and how I was her best friend and how she loved my body and mind, and then the second she moved out (ie, didn't need me any more) she really withdrew, and finally shucked me off altogether.  Worse yet, while she was withdrawing from me but before she sent me all those texts that morning, I felt like she was treating me like I was some sort of nut case who was overly hung up on her for just touching base with her to see how she was doing and asking her if she wanted out hang out.

 

Anyway, I think you're largely right.  I think what she is saying may well be back firing on her, because in order to complain about me she has to explain I let her live with me for two months rent free (even if she leaves out everything else I did for her) which is sure to elicit a "WTF are you complaining about?" from most people.  I'm not sure who might take her seriously, but largely our common friends are fairly ancilary people in my life and anyone who is closer should know me well enough to question anything she says.

 

I do still worry, though, because I think of myself and how even though I was taking what she said with a grain of salt it still effected how I was viewing some people even though I was actively considering the source.  She was just really damn convincing and I don't normally deal with people who are so dishonest (I noticed a lot of stuff that didn't make sense but chalked it up to her mental state due to her medical condition whereas now I just think it was all her) so it was hard to not think that there wasn't at least some kernal of truth.

 

It seems reasonable to me to expect that others may have the same reaction, especially as she really comes off as very sweet and sincere at a brush, so she is well liked by people (who up until recently included myself) who only have limited interactions with her. 

 

I think I'll ultimately talk to the one guy who I mentioned in particular, but since he just started working a second job and I'd feel more comfortable talking with him in person (so I can see if the conversation is going south) I'm not really sure when that will happen.  I don't know when that will happen and feel kind of uncomfortable witht that kind of hanging out in the air, but I think most of her bad mouthing was happening a while ago and he and I have still be on very social terms, so I think it's cool and can wait.

 

Anyway, I really appreciate your comments.  Thanks.

[[Wi...]]

Sweet g,

 

Based on all you've said about her it appears that she is a very toxic, highly manipulative person (probably no surprise to you now) who feeds off the kindness of other people.  I certainly don't want to downplay that she has some very serious medical problems, however that doesn't mean she can't also be extremely toxic individual.

 

Usually people like that ultimately dig themselves into a deep hole all by themselves without any help from others.  And the further you can stay from her the better, which it sounds like you are already trying to do.  If she is as capable of deceipt as it appears, there probably is no benefit in confronting her.  She is clearly skilled at destruction and the odds that you will achieve anything by addressing her directly is virtually nill.

 

Now as far as the others, I'm in agreement with both Jaso19 and Journey that depending on the person and you ultimate goal with them, approaching them and being as honest about the situation as possible and avoiding direct attacks on her, if these are people who deserve your friendship, they will hear you.  It is possible that she has already caused enough damage done by her that some of these people, as was mentioned above, may fall to the wayside.  And for that I'm so sorry as you certainly don't deserve that especially for the immense kindness you showed this woman.

 

Sometimes it is true that time heals and no matter how this plays out, life and friendships are fluid and if initially things don't go as you would like, does not mean anything is permanent.

 

Trust yourself and speak from your heart.  Be aware of what your true goals are with these people and try to make it about your relationships with them and not about her.  While I can't say she's a sociopath I can definitely state based on what you've said is that she is highly skilled in manipulation as well as being highly dysfunctional.  Your life is better with her as far from you as possible.

 

Just as a side note, I was involved with a man for 4 years who as it turned out was also very similar to her in skills and abilities.  In the end, although we were entirely over, he continued to contact me and make my life miserable.  In the end, using the wonderful world of technology, I was able to trap his phone number and automatically forward it to another phone number so I never had to receive his calls.  Took me a while to figure out who to forward his calls to  but ultimately I settled on Animal Control.  I thought that was very fitting lol.

 

My heart goes out to you.  You are a wonderful person who has not only helped this ingrate, but has provided me with so much support, for which I could never thank you enough.  When people do good, good comes to them. Sometimes it takes longer than we'd like, but it does come.

 

 

 

WWWI

 

[[sw...]]

Hey Journey,

 

I think the quotes will get confusing if I try to use them, so I'll just reply to you, here.  Thanks very much for taking the time to write your reply.

 

She was definitely homeless.  She and her husband married young and stayed together through most of their 20's, but kind of split but she was still living with him while he looked after her on top of working full time.  He really encouraged us to date, more than likely so that he could ask her to move out and she'd come to stay with me which is what happened.  He did definitely ask her to move out, though, and she definitely did not have a place to go and I was the only person who could realistically take her in due to her medical needs since I wasn't working.  I did definitely look into every single housing option for her and the wait list on everything, even someone in her situation, was around at least a year.

 

Regarding the home health care thing, I think that she does not want to admit that her condition has gotten so bad that she needs that level of support because she is so mentally sharp and a very independant person.  So, instead she just shifts the burden of full time caretaking onto the people around her.  I pointed out that she would actually be more independant if she had people who were employed by her (her insurance) rather than being totally dependant on the good graces of others, but she was just extremely resistant to the idea.  I think that she also gets very resentful of the people who help her because it upsets her to need others that badly and to be so dependant.

 

It's ridiculous, because just in the two months she was with me there were two times when her breathing was completely obstructed during seizures because she was face down in pillows or bedding and I think she very realistically might have suffocated if she had been alone.  Plus, I was obviously doing everything for her as far as errands, food prep, dishes, helping her bathe, etc.  I didn't mind helping someone I loved, but geez, if your insurance covers home health care workers why on earth aren't you using them??  I think she's not going to have any choice in the very near future.

 

Anyway, there is no danger of my keeping her around in my life.  I guess I've been mulling it over for this long because even with lighter than usual cog fog I can see myself taking longer to reach obvious conclusions than it should have and don't want to do anything permanent before I've finished thinking it out.  Unfortunately, in this case, the more I think about it the more I think her behavior really stinks.  Most of it was bothering me at the time, but I do wish I had understood that she was actively recruiting me to think poorly of others rather than just venting or something.  I was still put off by the level of very negative things she was saying about supposedly good friends, though, and by how little sense I thought her complaints made.

 

As I said above, I'm not too worried about most of her bad mouthing.  I mean, she's the one moving to *my* town.  These are mostly people who know me better and longer than her, on the whole, and as you might guess from my description of what I did for her, I am generally known as a really nice person so bad mouthing me is probably going to sound at least a little weird.  It will sound even weirder because I took her in for two months.  I suspect she will largely only make herself look bad in any attempt to besmirch me.

 

I also have more and better friends in my life, right now, than I have ever had in my life and I have never been happier or more confident.  I am still very socially rich even minus her and possibly (though I hope not) even including additional fall out, though I'd be sorry if it came to that, but you're right, if anyone seriously knows me and their bullshit detector isn't going off then it's probably best to take a breather.

 

It's a little weird because she is in a very popular local band.  She was commuting to this city for rehersals and gigs which is when we saw each other and is also why it made a lot of sense for her to relocate.  She is also a grade A shmoozer, so a lot of people really like her because of the band and how sugery and enthusiastic she is when she talks to people after the show.  She is desparately ill (she actually needs brain surgery) and that band is about the only thing she's got going in her life, although I'm not sure I've ever seen a band that was more drama central.  The saddest part is that even though they're doing really well I don't think a single one of them is having any fun.  To me, having fun would be almost the only reason to be in a local band.

 

oh well, that's probably a little off topic, there.  Anyway, thanks again for your time in replying.

[[sw...]]

Sweet g,

 

Based on all you've said about her it appears that she is a very toxic, highly manipulative person (probably no surprise to you now) who feeds off the kindness of other people.  I certainly don't want to downplay that she has some very serious medical problems, however that doesn't mean she can't also be extremely toxic individual.

 

Usually people like that ultimately dig themselves into a deep hole all by themselves without any help from others.  And the further you can stay from her the better, which it sounds like you are already trying to do.  If she is as capable of deceipt as it appears, there probably is no benefit in confronting her.  She is clearly skilled at destruction and the odds that you will achieve anything by addressing her directly is virtually nill.

 

Now as far as the others, I'm in agreement with both Jaso19 and Journey that depending on the person and you ultimate goal with them, approaching them and being as honest about the situation as possible and avoiding direct attacks on her, if these are people who deserve your friendship, they will hear you.  It is possible that she has already caused enough damage done by her that some of these people, as was mentioned above, may fall to the wayside.  And for that I'm so sorry as you certainly don't deserve that especially for the immense kindness you showed this woman.

 

Sometimes it is true that time heals and no matter how this plays out, life and friendships are fluid and if initially things don't go as you would like, does not mean anything is permanent.

 

Trust yourself and speak from your heart.  Be aware of what your true goals are with these people and try to make it about your relationships with them and not about her.  While I can't say she's a sociopath I can definitely state based on what you've said is that she is highly skilled in manipulation as well as being highly dysfunctional.  Your life is better with her as far from you as possible.

 

Just as a side note, I was involved with a man for 4 years who as it turned out was also very similar to her in skills and abilities.  In the end, although we were entirely over, he continued to contact me and make my life miserable.  In the end, using the wonderful world of technology, I was able to trap his phone number and automatically forward it to another phone number so I never had to receive his calls.  Took me a while to figure out who to forward his calls to  but ultimately I settled on Animal Control.  I thought that was very fitting lol.

 

My heart goes out to you.  You are a wonderful person who has not only helped this ingrate, but has provided me with so much support, for which I could never thank you enough.  When people do good, good comes to them. Sometimes it takes longer than we'd like, but it does come.

 

 

 

WWWI

 

Thank you so much for these kind words.  I completely agree with everything you said.  I don't really feels like she owes me anything for what I did for her, because so many people have been so very, very good to me while I have been sick who I will never be able to directly repay, so I kind of feel like what I did for her goes back into the pot.  But, that said, if I did think that she owed me anything it would be a little bit of class on the way out the door.

 

For what it is worth, I think have some insight into her behavior.  She was abused very badly when she was young, and while being passive and telling other people exactly what you think that they want to hear is a very legitimate survival strategy when you are a kid trapped in an abusive situation, it will only make for a lot of frustration and resentment as an adult. 

 

I ultimately came to realize she has an absolutely pathological need to tell people what she thinks that they want to hear.  Worse yet, since what most people want to hear is what she actually thinks, she is radically incorrectly guessing what they want to hear, but is then very upset with everyone for taking her at her word instead of reading her mind and knowing that (for example) she didn't really want to do something she enthusiastic said that she did.

 

This was the biggest red flag of them all:

 

When she first got to my place, a friend of hers had taken two weeks vacation time and paid to fly in from out of state, help her to pack up all of her belongings (because she is too infirmed to do anything physical, herself) and probably spent about $2000 on the tickets, the seperate hotel rooms for both of them (so that she didn't have to keep staying with her husband in an increasingly awkward situation) and then buying her a bunch of things she would need on her own.  The second that he left her with me she started tearing that guy a new one talking so much shit about him, and all I could think is, "hmm, this guy takes 2 weeks off and spends a ton of dough on her and this is what she has to say about him?  I wonder if that's going to be me when this is done?"  (ding! ding! ding!)

 

Worse, this guy lives in a medical marijuana state and I guess has his own card so he was buying top grade stuff and illegally sending it to her- hundreds of dollars worth at a time - because she is the living embodiment of who truly benefits from medical marijuana and he was a saint to do it.  Well, she was already reading all of her texts to me, both in coming and out going, and she starts really complaining about how this guy has the gall to be coming onto her but at the same time she's calling him baby, honey, sugar, darling, etc. and is flirting with him, but cursing him out loud to me the whole time.  And of course I'm like, well don't you think maybe he's just flirting with you (not that I really saw evidence of that) because you're flirting with him?  She would get angry and basically state that he was *making* her flirt with him because she needed the weed so badly, but all I saw was a friend of many years spending a lot of money, effort, and risk on helping her out while asking for nothing in return.  When I saw her kind of coming onto him via text while cursing him out loud because he had something that she wanted, I again thought to myself, "hmm, I wonder if that's going to be me?" (ding! ding! ding!) 

 

I honestly don't know how much of the affection that she directed towards me was completely artificial while she was privately cursing me out.  We were already dating before this all happened so I'm fairly sure that there was something actually there at one point, but looking back on it I guess one of the reasons I found myself really loving her was that she was telling me everything that you'd want someone you care about to tell you.  I don't know at what point she started BSing me on the relationship front, but it's clear to me now that it happened and went on for a while.  Even though I was looking out for it, I think I still got snowed just because she was so totally convincing.

 

The weird part is that my feelings aren't hurt by that, at all.  I really enjoyed our relationship while it lasted and largely think of even the bad parts now as a positive experience because I had a lot of fun and now I'm learning a lot of important life and dating lessons.  I think that I have come out of this relationship way ahead of where I was before I entered into it.  Even if she thinks that I suck, she still came out ahead, too, with all of the benefits I helped her to get.  My feeling are remarkably entirely unhurt by my entire experience with her, and figuring out if and how to broach the bad mouthing was really the only stress I've been coping with.

 

Thanks, again, very much for weighing in.  Just so you know, you're one of my favorite users, here.

 

[[sw...]]

phew!  What a lot of typing!  I can't thank you guys enough for letting me talk about this.  Part of the reason I have been going crazy about this is because I was afraid of letting the genie out of the bottle by talking about this with local friends and it somehow getting back to her and causing more problems when I really just needed to talk it through with some people.  If anyone else want to weigh in further, please do, but I just want to say thank you for letting me talk about this and process it through in my mind- I think that keeping it all to myself for 16 days was a huge part of why I couldn't stop thinking about it or process it.  I love you guys!

 

[[sw...]]

Hi Sweet G

 

The goal is to remove the turd from your doorstep in a healthy way, so it deosnt come back or leave any skid marks.

 

Btw, I did want to say that that completely slayed me- thanks!!!

 

:laugh:

[[jo...]]

Hi Sweet g

 

People with borderline personality disorder alternate between idealizing a person and then de-valuing them.

Yes, anyone who is closer should know me well enough to question anything she says.

 

As this girl has no morals and doesn't care who she upsets, I would not worry what she thinks. No decent friend would let her negativity come between you and her.

 

Her true colours will shine through.

 

I would try not to worry about what you willl say to your male friend. You could work out what you want to say, which will be easy, cos you're honest, so you will be just telling it like it is.

 

Sorry to hear the girl wasw resisitant to the idea of employinng someone to care for her. It sounds as if she has not accepted that she now needs to depend on other people, which must be hard to accept. I found thi wd hard to accept, and that is only temporary.

 

You also saved her life as well as looking after her.

At some point she is going to have to accept that she needs to spend her money on care. While she is leeching off others though, she gets to spend the money she is supposed to spend on care on herself.

 

It's good that she is out of your life. Hindsight is 20-20 vision. It's too easy to say after the event.

 

Being a well liked person, yes, it will sound weird if someone starts bad mouthing you. Toxic people give off vibes and hopefully your friends will have picked those up as an uncomfortable feeling when around her.

 

It's great that you are feeling really confident now. I hope you don't mind me saying, though, your post shows a lack of confidence in yourself, even though you know the truth and you know that she is toxic.

Have the confidence to know that if any of your current friends are friendly with her, question yours and their friendship, because a lot can be said about a person from the friends they choose.

Just keep reminding yourself of how toxic her character is and this will also give you confidence.

 

In my opinion, shcmoozers are false and insincere. What's the point in living if you are goinna lie your way through life, beause you are not in reality if you feel the need to lie.

 

Many of the loud tpyes of popular people are very lonely deep down.

They have many superficial friends, and look really happy on the surface, but really, they are as miserable as sin.

 

It sounds like she is under a lot of stress, and her negative manner also strongly suggests to me that she has not processed and moved on from some form of deep pain inflicted on her at a very young age.

 

That, together with her illness must mount up the stress, but, this is not an excuse to use and bad-mouth the very people you are calling on for help.

 

I am making this reply, by reading each paragraph you have posted, because I find it too confusing to read the whole post and then reply.

I am now reading the bit about the abuse she suffered. Un-resolved pain from the abuse, possibly because there were no positive adults in her life to listen to her while she confided the abuse.

Abused children who get the chance to talk to someone understanding about it grow up to be healthier adults than those children who never got chance to heal.

She may have tried and got silenced, whatever happened, she has not processed the experience and discharged the painful emotions.

She is scared to process those emotions and needs treatment in the form of therapy. She has to want to do this though, she cannot let fear block out the sadness, because she is doing that now, and it is coming out as toxicity in her character. This is largely the origins of toxic people and why they are the way they are.

 

You seem to be beating yourself up over her, when you mention her two friends treating her well and then her slagging them off. It seems obvious in hindsight. You felt that yours was the only place she could stay, at the time, so you had your reasons, it wasn't as if you made a careless mistake, it sounds like you felt kinda trapped into letting her stay, not your fault. You also thougtht you were in love at the time, and love can be intoxicating and cloud our judgement.

In withdrawal and through the little bit of CBT that helped me, I have found that instead of beating myself up for doing 'careless' things, I should accept that it's done now, and concentrate on the things I can do to make the situation better for myself.

When we beat ourselves up, we are not accepting ourselves or events, and therefore not accepting reality. We can allow ourselves to feel sad about something we have done 'wrong', and I would encourage letting the natural feelings flow, but there is a world of difference between feeling sad and beating up on ourselves.

Opening ourselves up to feeling our disappointment and then naturally moving on to exploring ways to make the situation better is the healthy way to deal with times when we annoy ourselves from our actions.

 

It is great that you have taken some positive things from this experience, i.e. learning and I hope you learn some more valuable things on this therad.

 

I also hope the weight of the stress from this is now lifted from your shoulder.

 

[[sw...]]

Journey, I can't thank you enough for talking this through with me.  You're so thorough and have many useful comments.

 

To respond, I do feel confident in general, but I was just really questioning myself so badly on this.  The deal is that I first met her online for a local (to my city) band's web page that had a lively social scene 6.5 years ago.  She came off great online, and that is because she is frankly one of the most intelligent, talented, and funny people I've met (unfortunately she's got all of these severe emotional problems that make her behave sorry poorly, too, but I didn't like her in a vaccuum). 

 

Sometimes we'd see her in person, too, and the consensus was always that she was really great which is kind of fair because on so many levels she is, it's just that apparently she kind of sucks, too.  Anyway, after having enjoyed her for a number of years and having had my opinion reinforced by several other people holding her in high esteem, I guess it was just difficult for me to switch gears and see her in another light because of the cog fog.  I actually can't believe how cloudy my thinking has been on this.  I was making some forward progress, but only with this thread do I feel like my head is really clearing.

 

I am *so* glad that you mentioned boarderline personality disorder, because while I had heard of it before I didn't know what it was.  I looked it up, and the lengthy description that I read on it described her to a T with only a few exceptions.  I can't begin to say what a relief it was to read all of that because it really validated my own observations.  I can't begin to say the self-doubt I was having because of the cog fog and my fear of making a grave mistake in misreading her.  The thing you said about rapidly going from idealizing someone to demonizing them really got my attention as I saw her do this to quite a few others as well as myself.

 

There is one thing that kind of haunts me about the two articles that I read on it is that they were both really clear that almost everyone who had it had suffered severe childhood abuse very frequently including incest.  Before she moved in with me, she had already told me of very severe physical abuse from her father than almost definitely caused a great deal of her current medical condition, but towards the end of her stay she confided a story in me that chills me to think it is true that does involve brutal and prolonged incestual abuse as a child.  I realize that she wasn't exactly the most reliable source of information, but it's not like stuff like that doesn't happen and when you do occasionally read about it happening in the paper and you think to yourself "what is ever going to become of those poor kids?"- and if she isn't exactly what you'd expect the outcome to be, then I don't know what is.

 

I can't do anything to help her further with her problems at this point, and I need her out of my life while I am pulling my own life together.  Reading that in those articles does make me sad, though, because I feel like it more or less confirms a good deal of her story (they were both pretty specific about incest and severe abuse).  I feel like I'm still thinking it over, but I guess the way I feel about it is that she is an incredibly intelligent, smart, clever, funny, and talented person who was very severely abused over her entire childhood.  This abuse almost certainly partially or fully contributed to the very badly damaged body that she now has, as well as boarderline personality disorder which obviously causes her a very great deal of pain.

 

I can't help her with any of that, maybe not ever but really definitely not now and who knows if she'd even want me to.  Everything I liked about her was valid and not rose colored glasses, but in her pain she is absolutely lashing out and hurting the ones who care about her the most (and I'm mainly not even referring to myself).  Her pain makes her a toxic and negative person, and right now she does have to leave my life.  She may have come by this honestly, but at 29 if she doesn't take full responsibility for shitty behavior towards otherhs, then when?

 

Anyway, I feel more comfortable having a fairly good idea of what happened here, from what happened between us in the last few months to how she ever wound up where she is in life.  She is a tough cookie.  Even after being thrown out of the house at 16 she kept going to high school and graduated while she was literally living on the streets.  I think that there is so much to be commended in her, but she is also behaving like a shit and I'm not going to deal with that while I'm working so hard just to take care of things like bathing myself (embarassing, but true).

 

I feel a lot of peace on this, now.  I don't know that I'm done fully thinking it through, but I feel like I was finally able to process this by discussing this, and the boardline thing really helped everything to fall into place for me.  I also agree that it's kind of ridiculous not to think that she isn't going to sound like the ass bad mouthing me when it's pretty well known that I did so much for her.  I shouldn't have worried, but the cog fog and the extreme drama bs of the sitation sort of overloaded my mental circuits.

 

I think I'm finally going to sleep, tonight.  I sure hope so, but if I don't, then I don't think that it's going to be because of this.  Again, thanks so much, really in equal parts for listening and for what you said.  I can't believe how much I typed, today!  And I can't believe that you were awesome enough to read it.

 

[[jo...]]

You are really welcome.

 

Sadly these people put on a convincing superficial charm, and win many people over, even those without cog fog.

I've had it happen to me, where I enjoy someones company only to find out they are not so nice afterall.

The fact that these people are popular with others also reinforces our positive opionion of them.

 

These people are masters at attracting people to them, so don't be hard on yourself.

I think that the way a person handles stress or negativity is a good indicator of their real character, because stress tends to show people's true colours.

 

I'm so pleased that this thread has helped you and that you felt validated by reading simlar things relating to her. It does boost your confidence, doesn't it when we either read something, or someone points out to us, that a person is not all they seem and there is a way to pick up on negativity before it affects us.

 

I've been fooled by tons of this sort of people, so I know how you feel.

For a large part of my life, I would get feelings about people, but ignore them as I didnt realise they were my inner guidance telling me to be careful with this person.

 

I am not a psychiatrist so I cannot diagnose but the reason I mentined BPD is because of her alternating between idealising and de-valuing a person. BPD can be cuased by poor parenting.

 

What's gonna become of those poor kids who are affected by insest and bad abuse, unless they receive treatment to heal those nasty wounds, those wounds, just like physical un-treated wounds, will fester, and give off a horrible odour (the odour being a metaphor for the negativity that oozes out of these people like a bad smell.

 

You now know you van't do anything to help her further with her problems at this point.

Yes, it's sad, victims of abuse need to express their pain and work though it, otherwise they end up despised as their un-treated symptoms affect everyone else.

 

She has to help herself, by admitting she has a problem and seeking help for it, no one else can do this for her.  The fact that she hasn't dealt with her pain makes her a toxic and negative person.

 

No matter what talents and achievements she has, there is no excuse to take her negativity out on you.

 

I hope you had a much better nights sleep.

[[sw...]]

Hey there,

 

I wanted to write back a little sooner, but my mom was visiting from out of state and it was hard for me to multi-task.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to thank you, again.  In all honestly, I think that this constituted the most help I have directly received from a thread.  I think I've been pretty lucky to more or less be able to cope with a lot of things, but due to withdrawal I was really not able to think my way through this situation and your help assisted me so much.  Not just pragmatically, but you really helped me to emotionally digest things.

 

Before I posted this thread, I think I was just really hung up on several things.  On the one level, I was just really stuck on the specifics that weren't worth it, like "why did she say X when she so clearly really felt the 180 degree opposite??" on each of all of the different things she was so inconsistent on.  I also had trouble shifting gears to see her in a more negative light after having had a positive (if highly managed through being at a distance) impression of her for 6.5 years that was also very strongly bolstered by the also positive opinions of others.

 

I also was getting hung up on how to possibly explain the situation to others if I had to, but a funny thing happened last night.  I ran into a friend who is a local artist who had done her band a really nice favor by volunteering to draw a cool flyer for their show which not only did they not use, but then they took forever to get the original back to him.  They were totally crazy not to use the flyer, and he said that the whole thing left him with a bad taste in his mouth.  Without my saying anything, he said, "they're really together musically, but socially is just another thing all together" (referring to her and one other).

 

Validation!!  I think that she was able to come off well in small doses while living in another city, but the bigger the doses people get now that she's here the more they're likely to see the same things that I did.  Also, the other nice thing was that (with him being the first person I'd say anything about our not dating any more about) I just told him that she was to "high drama" for my tastes.  whoa, simple and to the point!  ha, I don't know why it didn't occur to me to just sum it up like that in advance, but it sure came out right when I said it.

 

Anyway, I'm not really hung up on it, though I still think about it some- but more like it's circling the bowl before being totally flushed.  At this point, I am just sort of mentally looking things over so that I can catch on even more quickly should I encounter anyone like this again (dating or no). 

 

Though I feel pretty good that I noticed every single red flag that she threw up at the time (so I'm not wondering how I could have been so blind, or anything), I do feel like I could have connected the dots and have everything fall into place maybe a bit more quickly because I really am horribly mentally impacted, right now.  I am uncomfortable thinking poorly of others, and was even less comfortable reaching this conclusion while I was having so much trouble thinking, but the irony is that it was actually my trouble thinking that prevented me from coming to the obvious negative conclusion about her much earlier.

 

So, again, thanks so much for your help, time, and trouble.  You really and truly helped me as much or more than anyone else here has in the past.

 

[[jo...]]

Hi sweet g

 

It's not a problem that you didn't write sooner, I understand that you have other tasks as well.

 

It's wonderful that this thread helped you.

 

Yes, many people have positive feelings about a negative person, and don't realise how bad they are straight away. Some people even 'put up' with them because they don't want to 'rock the boat' this is very destructive of course, but people think its the easy option.

 

Your artist friend has obviously seen the negative side of these people.

 

I'm glad what you needed to say came out right.

 

I like your 'circling the bowl' expression.

 

Don't be hard on yourself. You did the right thing, coming here and bouncing it off others, and then speaking your truth.

 

It's great that we helped and if you ever have any situations that you don't know how to deal with, please post here.

I do, and it is wonderful. We are not just benzo buddies, we can be normal buddies too.

 

lots of love