In defense of Doctors

[[Kl...]]

Hi pj,

 

Thank you for crafting a wonderful discussion thread.

 

Your skills in moderating are very keen and much appreciated.

 

The nursing shortage is one of experienced nurses.  The average age of an RN is more than 45 years of age.  Many older nurses have retired or are working in other fields due to the tremendous amount of physicality required for this profession.  We have a steady supply of new graduate nurses and a huge bottleneck of students waiting long periods of time (up to 3 years or more) to get into nursing school.  The problem is we have a lack of nursing educators (again due to retirement).  

 

I mentioned that there are easier ways to make a living other than becoming a physician.  I would place even more emphasis on this with respect to nursing.

 

Again, thank you for the opportunity to participate.

 

Hugs, KL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

Hi pj,

 

Thank you for crafting a wonderful discussion thread.

 

Your skills in moderating are very keen and much appreciated.

 

The nursing shortage is one of experienced nurses.  The average age of an RN is more than 45 years of age.  Many older nurses have retired or are working in other fields due to the tremendous amount of physicality required for this profession.  We have a steady supply of new graduate nurses and a huge bottleneck of students waiting long periods of time (up to 3 years or more) to get into nursing school.  The problem is we have a lack of nursing educators (again due to retirement). 

 

I mentioned that there are easier ways to make a living other than becoming a physician.  I would place even more emphasis on this with respect to nursing.

 

Again, thank you for the opportunity to participate.

 

Hugs, KL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To respond to a wonderful person such as yourself, reinvigorates my belief that there are still many good and kind  people in the world.  I better get back to work so I remain among the employed.

 

pj

[[Pr...]]

Ugh, another awful situation, VG. I'm so sorry to hear. My aunt had a mastectomy this year and soon she will have her breast reconstructed but I think they intend to use her own body fat. At least I hope so.

 

I couldn't agree more. BUT, what about the ones listed about that are in fact CREATED by drugs and devices like my experience, and food. I truly believe the conditions you've listed are ALSO being created by what I've listed, and and these "man made" conditions are cropping up at the same rate as the ones that would happen on their own.

 

This is true, VG. Most of these conditions are so fuzzy anyway. They're not like diabetes where oh, your blood sugar is high. You might have a negative ANA test one day and a positive test the next and still end up diagnosed lupus etc etc. I'm always stunned by how imprecise and poorly defined everything is. And that goes double for the field of psychiatry. Often people present with weird, murky constellations of sxs that are trying to signal something wrong within the body on a deeper scale but they are handed a prescription.

 

How about rather than assigning personal accountability, we agree that we are all highly suspicious that many modern ailments have significant nutritional and environmental components. Some may be of our own doing (as in my friend's case). Others may be a byproduct of the society we live in such as electromagnetic fields and water contamination. Some may be a combination of the two. For example, I had a horrible experience with probiotics this year even though they're supposed to be the best thing since cheese. So I think we can unify on the point that modern medicine attempts to treat many disorders that can be better handled in other ways, and that many of the "treatments" may cause further toxicity in the body.

 

LOL PJ - I was just thinking that I need to get some actual work done today!

[[Wi...]]

Speaking of the "Industry" and the obesity epidemic...this was implemented and overnight an epidemic was created...And lets not even talk about the "American Diabetes Association Revises Diabetes Guidlines"

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/guideposts/fitness/optimal.htm

 

Optimal Weight Threshold Lowered

Washington Post Staff Writer

Thursday, June 4, 1998; Page A01

 

The federal government plans to change its definition of what is a healthy weight, a controversial move that would classify millions more Americans as being overweight.

 

The move has been debated for months within public health circles, since the guidelines set the standard for doctors to care for the overweight and the obese. They also address such thorny questions as when diet and exercise alone should be used to shed pounds and when drug treatment should be considered and for whom.One of the most vocal critics of the guidelines has been former surgeon general C. Everett Koop, who has questioned lowering the cutoff point for what is considered overweight...

[[...]]

Deleted by me because It was a stupid post.  I should never have written it, was embarrassed after I reread it. I guess occasional brain fog is for real.

[[Wi...]]

PJ, the story wasn't a bad story, nor should you feel embarrasment in anyway.  However in the context of this conversation my gut response to it was great frustration, whether the story was true or not, with the invocation of patriotism and "our men and women in the service of our country" to nudge acceptance and forgiveness towards a profession that, speaking only for myself, has within it's ranks, provided me with multiple unnecessary challenges.  And although I genuinely do not believe in your story there was malice involved, that was the same tactic used by those WITH malice to get us into IMHO an unnecessary and devastating war. As a result, I initially responded as I did.  Perhaps I should have clarified that at the time.

[[va...]]

Hey PJ, that wasn't lame at all and it's a great story. I won't post my long posts and I'm sorry they were so long. No need as they are getting redundant. You made a great point.

 

I'm going to be the devil's advocate. Okay,  I hope that Walter, the decorated Marine combat indoctrinated surgeon that helped Arnold has all of his prescription facts straight.

 

As great as we know most of these doctors are in the respect of saving lives in which you've illustrated, in an instant they can reverse the healing from all of their hard work if not educated on the other side with what they are prescribing. Even if someone is the #1 oncologist lets say, if he or she doesn't know what they are giving beyond their specialty expertise, that can add on more years of healing for the patient through withdrawals and being sick from that etc.  

 

We see people that were healed completely from accidents or healing and not wanting to take their muscle relaxant (benzo) or sleeping pill (benzo) and find out what it is and get sick all over again coming off. Same with opiates. Right after they already thought they'd finished 2 years of chemo or physio from an accident and they thought they were healthy and finished and ready to get back into life, they just got sentenced another 2 years from benzo taperig, or worse, c/t of which they were not told. Their initial doctor that helped them, says they shouldn't be having problems coming off the drug. Opiate or benzo or otherwise. 2 years just turned into 4 from one of the BEST doctors in the field of expertise that initially helped them.

 

As long as the doctor is educated all across the board with me, he's okay in my book. They will get all of the respect, trust that they deserve. I want to be helped and I need doctors just like the next person. I do expect them to know what they are doing with the "whole" procedure now. From start to finish. My stance NOW has changed and if they don't follow through with being educated from start to finish, that's not a GAP I'm ever going to be comfortable with. Just me.

 

Some might argue, "at least they saved their life, or his leg etc." Okay, if we're coming from "at least he's okay, so what if he's got to deal with the drug. It's better than the alternative." Yes, there's that. Actually, I personally see that's how it is. Ideally, I'd like that to change.  

 

I kind of wish there was a position in medicine for Dr.'s with this expertise for doctors to hire. Like at the end of the line they see Dr. Such and Such degreed in pharmacology that understands benzos, just like we do. It's idealistic, but it would sure help to dot the i's and cross the t's all the way to the end of the line.

 

I'm off your thread PJ. xo

 

Thankyou very much for letting me discuss this. I really appreciate it.  

[[ja...]]

Well thought out comments.   We have serious issues within the medical community in our society.  Yikes!

[[Ch...]]

Deleted by me because It was a stupid post.  I should never have written it, was embarrassed after I reread it. I guess occasional brain fog is for real.

 

PJ,

 

There is nothing at all wrong with posting that story in my opinion.  Nor is there anything wrong with the intent of this thread.  I'm actually disappointed in some of things I have read here.  I know many, myself included, have had an adverse experience with the medical system but it's not fair to blanket the work of an entire generation of doctors because of it.  The recklessness of a few doctors that led to the situation I am in today has no bearing on the the handful of doctors and surgeons who saved my mother's life when I was 8 and those who did their best to save my father's when I was 28.  If their successes in their field allow them the best of things that society has to offer then I don't think it's fair to criticize that.  Perhaps people can start another thread and state their stories of how the system let them down.  If this can be done in a constructive way, it may just prevent the same mistakes from being repeated.  

 

Christopher

[[Kl...]]

pj,

 

I thought your story was beautiful.

 

It made me stop and think. . .

    about something else

    other than myself.

 

For this, I am grateful.

    thank you.  The Klonkers

 

 

 

 

 

[[va...]]

I don't see people making comments to sway this great thread to how the system let them down personally.

 

What I'm reading is many members offering BOTH sides of what they see happening within the real complexities of the medical community, and putting heads together identifying things that are pro, and con, which dynamics and variables directly affect our prescribers, what can make information and procedure convaluted.

 

Then, hypotheticals in presenting solutions about what could we change in the community to make it more efficient for patients in light of todays challenges for the doctors.

 

Eg; Modern ailments and what is the cause. Princezz came up with environmental, nutritional, (some of our own doing, some not) countering my medical community illustrations. I call that balanced. And she's right. We all are. This is the thing.

 

I find this thread very adult, and well informed.

 

As well as a lot of compassion from some members in that what SOME see as shortcomings, OTHERS see as doctors are really doing all they can do and their very best with their back against the wall due to what they're in fact up against today.

 

Because of that I think both takes have kept the thread balanced and a good read.

 

For me personally it's been very educational, objective, and I'm quite thankful PJ started it and again I GREATLY appreciate his open mind.

 

 

[[Wi...]]

Well thought out comments.   We have serious issues within the medical community in our society.  Yikes!

No argument here Jackson.  Nice to see you again

[[Ro...]]

I am posting this basically as an editorial because I believe so much in this site and all the good that it does for so many people.

 

 

 

 

We were all given Benzodiazepines for a reason.  We sought out a Doctor, the Doctor did not seek us out.  We were dealing with insomnia, anxiety, or a whole host of other conditions.  We all have had, or are still having withdrawal symptoms.  Some folks have been suffering terribly from these powerful drugs for a very long time.

 

Could the Doctor have explained more fully the repercussions affiliated with the taking, and the eventual stopping of Benzodiazepines?, absolutely.  Do they need to be more highly educated about all matters concerning Benzodiazepines?, absolutely.  Do they need to be more understanding about the pain and confusion these drugs cause their patients?, absolutely.

 

Hundreds of Doctors do great things everyday.  Ask a young mother who's little baby was cured of  leukemia, or a family who's loved one has her  breast cancer in remission.  By downing Doctors, the medical profession in gereral, and the drug manufacturers, who, incidentally provide many life savng drugs. We are inadvertently providing the detractors of sites such as BenzoBuddies the verbal ammunition in which to attack us as mental loonies and doctor bashers..

 

The bottom line is, we all want to be done with this and move on to a place in the world where we can retrieve all that we have lost and resume a fulfilling and productive life again.

 

If you feel that it helps you to yell, and scream, and stamp your feet because you are angry at your doctor, please do so. But try to refrain from doing it where it can be viewed by a vast audience and become misconstrued that we hate Doctors.  We want to deprive our advisories  of one less arrow in their quiver in which to use in their attack upon this great site and the fine folks who are benefiting immensely from it.

 

I believe we all have become more aware of the human condition, and have gained a higher level of compassion and understanding from our unwanted experience with Benzodiazepines.

 

Thank you for allowing me to give my opinions.

 

pj

 

Well said and I agree.

 

Robb

 

[[va...]]

Well thought out comments.   We have serious issues within the medical community in our society.  Yikes!

No argument here Jackson.  Nice to see you again

Hi Jackson!! We can just hope for change right? And it's so so good to see you too! 

[[ja...]]

Thanks VC Girl and WWWI....you two have sure suffered from benzo effects.....but at the same time are very thoughtful, bright woman who contribute greatly to any discussion......glad we have been pals

[[Wi...]]

Thanks VC Girl and WWWI....you two have sure suffered from benzo effects.....but at the same time are very thoughtful, bright woman who contribute greatly to any discussion......glad we have been pals

Me too Jackson .  I'm missing that other picture tho, was a great view. 

[[...]]

PJ, the story wasn't a bad story, nor should you feel embarrasment in anyway.  However in the context of this conversation my gut response to it was great frustration, whether the story was true or not, with the invocation of patriotism and "our men and women in the service of our country" to nudge acceptance and forgiveness towards a profession that, speaking only for myself, has within it's ranks, provided me with multiple unnecessary challenges.  And although I genuinely do not believe in your story there was malice involved, that was the same tactic used by those WITH malice to get us into IMHO an unnecessary and devastating war. As a result, I initially responded as I did.  Perhaps I should have clarified that at the time.

 

WWWI,

 

I really do appreciate your opinions.  We both possess a strong-willed and compassionate nature, and when we truly believe in an issue, we do our best to defend our positions.  That is what debating is all about.

 

As far as  ( The Story)  I should not have invoked the military because I have a bias.  A friend I have known since elementary school, had his life saved by a surgeon who was serving with the Marines in Afghanistan.  Did I over-react when I saw your emoticon beating his head against the wall, yes I did.  I had about two hours sleep the previous night, and a very stressful day at work to top it off.

 

So, as all good debaters do.  We shake hands and move on to our next debate, hopefully to add some enligtenment and 'food for thought', to all who care to listen.

 

pj

 

[[Wi...]]

PJ, the story wasn't a bad story, nor should you feel embarrasment in anyway.  However in the context of this conversation my gut response to it was great frustration, whether the story was true or not, with the invocation of patriotism and "our men and women in the service of our country" to nudge acceptance and forgiveness towards a profession that, speaking only for myself, has within it's ranks, provided me with multiple unnecessary challenges.  And although I genuinely do not believe in your story there was malice involved, that was the same tactic used by those WITH malice to get us into IMHO an unnecessary and devastating war. As a result, I initially responded as I did.  Perhaps I should have clarified that at the time.

 

WWWI,

 

I really do appreciate your opinions.  We both possess a strong-willed and compassionate nature, and when we truly believe in an issue, we do our best to defend our positions.  That is what debating is all about.

 

As far as  ( The Story)  I should not have invoked the military because I have a bias.  A friend I have known since elementary school, had his life saved by a surgeon who was serving with the Marines in Afghanistan.  Did I over-react when I saw your emoticon beating his head against the wall, yes I did.  I had about two hours sleep the previous night, and a very stressful day at work to top it off.

 

So, as all good debaters do.  We shake hands and move on to our next debate, hopefully to add some enligtenment and 'food for thought', to all who care to listen.

pj

PJ,

 

That was a very gracious response, thank you.  I do agree that, as you said, we both possess a strong-willed and compassionate nature and it amazes me how this post has remained as amicable as it has and as was mentioned in a prior post much of it is due to your moderation skills, for which you should take great pride.  

 

I have a feeling there may be other areas that we would agree to disagree (as well as those with which we agree) and I would, in another life or perhaps a different forum, be interested in your perspective because, as you may also agree, open yet differing discourse seems to be less frequent in the world as we know it today.  I'm hoping that trend reverses and I applaud your attempt here, despite differing perspectives and such a volitile subject matter, to open up the dialogue with full knowledge of the backlash that was possible.  That was courageous.

 

I too work and am in transition with the meds, and the resulting revving of s/x, so I absolutely empathize.  

 

I also want you to know that I am not "Anti" doctor.  For example, despite the fact I was given a medication by a p-doc for a condition I didn't have, that resulted in 2 autoimmune diseases, as I mentioned above, which were originally mis-diagnosed by a gastroenterologist as gallbladder disease which then resulted in the inappropriate removal of my gallbladder, I'm very grateful to the surgeon that removed my gallbladder, despite the fact that it was unnecessary, which he didn't know as he was going off the word of the gastroenterologist, that he was a very skilled, kind and compassionate surgeon and left me with minimal scarring and recovery.  

 

WWWI

 

 

[[...]]

Here is an interesting factoid;  in 1849, Elizabeth Blackwell graduated with a medical degree from the Geneva Medical College in New York, thus becoming the first female doctor in the United States.

 

 

I just want to thank everybody for being so thoughtful and considerate in your responses to

a topic that in one way or another has impacted us all.  The degree of decorum and level-headedness shown by all is so very refreshing.  If only our politicians and world leaders would possess such attributes.  What a wonderful world it could be.

 

Whatever your experience with doctors is presently, or has been in the past, my wish for all of you fine and decent people is that you recover and get to fulfil all of your hopes and dreams.

 

Have the best Thanksgiving ever.

 

pj

[[ha...]]

Good interaction with GP last week. I was there for another issue and told her about the benzos, w/d, sxs and drug half-life profiles. She is not the one who prescribed the benzos. She listened, did a more thorough check of BP, HR and other things. At the end of my saying that, in my (humble) opinion, these drugs should be illegal for this type of use (long-term/related to anxiety), she just quietly said, "and we first make an oath do do no harm".

 

I have a couple of choices about my thinking at this point: be glad that I was able to have a rationale, reasoned interaction, during which I helped to educate a GP and gain a support for this w/d plan of mine or I could be angry that she did not alert me about the drugs earlier, as she has known I have been on them for a long time. I choose the former line of thinking. I think that will help in my healing.

 

[[...]]

Good interaction with GP last week. I was there for another issue and told her about the benzos, w/d, sxs and drug half-life profiles. She is not the one who prescribed the benzos. She listened, did a more thorough check of BP, HR and other things. At the end of my saying that, in my (humble) opinion, these drugs should be illegal for this type of use (long-term/related to anxiety), she just quietly said, "and we first make an oath do do no harm".

 

I have a couple of choices about my thinking at this point: be glad that I was able to have a rationale, reasoned interaction, during which I helped to educate a GP and gain a support for this w/d plan of mine or I could be angry that she did not alert me about the drugs earlier, as she has known I have been on them for a long time. I choose the former line of thinking. I think that will help in my healing.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you, hanna.  I think the decision you made will help you in your healing.  To become angry is a common human emotion, but to remain angry, in my opinion, causes the anger in our minds to become poison in our hearts and harms us more than it hurts anyone else.

 

The best of everything to a buddie from Canada.  I trust you had a nice Thanksgiving day on October 10th.  Do Canadians celebrate their Thanksgiving day like we do with a turkey dinner?

 

[[va...]]

Hi PJ!! Happy Thanksgiving to you!

 

I know you weren't referring to me but I'm from Canada too. We celebrate the same way although our Thanksgiving was last month. Turkey, with sides etc. Apple pie and pumpkin pie for desert. Maybe other deserts as well. When I lived down south in Austin though, man can southeners cook. Their sides were as good as the bird. You could have sides as a main course with all the extra's they put in lol.

[[...]]

Hi PJ!! Happy Thanksgiving to you!

 

I know you weren't referring to me but I'm from Canada too. We celebrate the same way although our Thanksgiving was last month. Turkey, with sides etc. Apple pie and pumpkin pie for desert. Maybe other deserts as well. When I lived down south in Austin though, man can southeners cook. Their sides were as good as the bird. You could have sides as a main course with all the extra's they put in lol.

 

 

All I can say is that you are sweeter than a big ole' slice of MoonPie, eh.  You're right about that southern

cookin'.  I currently live in Mississippi and I can hardly wait to dig into that upcoming Thanksgiving dinner. 

 

[[ha...]]

PJ, Yup, had a good Thanksgiving. No moose meat this Thanksgiving, just turkey!

 

Vancouvergirl, I am also Canadian. Hope you had a good Thanksgiving. Sounds like the southern cooking is something! I have only been as far south as Indiana for American Thanksgiving. I was astounded at the amount and variety of food. Sounds like further south is even better.

 

About the anger. I do get angry about this for sure, probably more than is good. But I am really trying to take advantage of the times when I can help someone understand what giving benzos can, in fact probably will, do to someone. If I can change at least one dr.'s opinion, it is worth it. That dr. might see other people who have the same thing happen.

[[va...]]

Hi PJ!! Happy Thanksgiving to you!

 

I know you weren't referring to me but I'm from Canada too. We celebrate the same way although our Thanksgiving was last month. Turkey, with sides etc. Apple pie and pumpkin pie for desert. Maybe other deserts as well. When I lived down south in Austin though, man can southeners cook. Their sides were as good as the bird. You could have sides as a main course with all the extra's they put in lol.

All I can say is that you are sweeter than a big ole' slice of MoonPie, eh.  You're right about that southern

cookin'.  I currently live in Mississippi and I can hardly wait to dig into that upcoming Thanksgiving dinner. 

 

Ah ha!! Back atcha PJ! I googled MoonPie, I don't think I've ever heard or had that lol. Mississippi? Well you know what I mean by good ole fashioned southern cookin then! Man, you guys know how to cook. And I'm a fitness girl, I had to run an extra mile or lock myself in during the holidays down there lol.

 

Hey Hanna! You 2 being a canuck huh? Yes, I did and I hope you had a good thanksgiving too. Oh yes, further down it gets better. More variety still. I can't believe what these people can do with green beans. Or casseroles with carrots. It's sinful. Beats the heck outta boiled vegetables with a dollup of butter any day of the week lol.