Rosalind (Beating Benzos) & Logos - Lordy

[[Co...]]

Hi all,

It is time that I provide a correction to serial and public false claims made by Rosalind (Beating Benzos).

For background (a thread from July):

Shorty thereafter, I was also contacted via PM by a moderator from Beating Benzos. The Beating moderator was attempting to be reasonable, but was poorly informed. I will append this post with my side of the correspondence (she is welcome to reply and quote her own side of the conversation if she so wishes).

It appears that Beating Benzos are experiencing problems with Facebook. I am uncertain, but it appears to concern Facebook content policy violations. (The phrase used to describe the situation to me is that Facebook is 'shadow banning' Beating Benzos.)

A member of BenzoBuddies contacted me about the following message appearing at the Beating Benzos Facebook group. Within the past day or so, a member of Beating Benzos suggested that if their group should close, perhaps their members could instead use BenzoBuddies. Rosalind responded with the following comment at her group:

Quote

[Beating Benzos member] our forum will be easier to understand hopefully as Benzo Buddies has become confusing for those not well. Also benzo buddies are using the logo we’ve had for several years now. They were informed!”

We were 'Informed' of what, Rosalind?

Rosalind (and her proxies) have serially claimed that I have stolen their logo. To be absolutely clear about this: I designed the BB logo using Adobe Illustrator, based upon ideas I had discussed at BB more than ten years ago. Whereas, Rosalind uses a stock (licensed) logo from Adobe.

The BenzoBuddies logo:

The Beating Benzos logo can found at their website. It merely consists of the text, 'Beating Benzos', and prepended with this image (apparently) licensed from Adobe:

Rosalind does not own the Adobe-licensed logo. And she certainly does not own the logo I created for BenzoBuddies.

I've just searched again - it seems that Rosalind paid for her logo, but it appears that the company used the Adobe logo image in its creation. That's pretty funny. If Rosalind expected her 'butterfly' to be created from scratch, I suggest that she takes it up with Toolkit. Irrespective, she still does not own the BenzoBuddies logo, she holds no relevant trademark (read the thread I linked to, started by @[Ev...]), holds no relevant IP, and her own butterfly logo makes use of a third-party image.

https://www.toolkitwebsites.co.uk/logo-design

https://secure.toolkitfiles.co.uk/clients/8475/siteimages/hires/Beating-Benzos-logo.png

The use of entwined Bs or butterflies for logos is very common. Further, BenzoBuddies has been known as 'BB' for 20 years, many, many years before Beating Benzos was even created. I regret that Rosalind is experiencing problems with Facebook, and that her 'bespoke' logo is apparently not bespoke and is generic in nature. But take it up with Toolkit, Rosalind.

I was also informed in July that Rosalind posted the following statement at her Facebook group:

Quote

A quick statement to say that Beating Benzos is not affiliated in any way to Benzo Buddies that is now using a logo similar to ours. We don’t ask for contributions or want donations of any kind. I believe an email was sent out to this effect and some members have reported this to us.

As I responded at the time, the above is a disingenuous statement. An attempt to plant a seed that I have acted nefariously, or that those receiving email requesting donations for BenzoBuddies are being duped, mislead, or confused.

I advised the Beating Benzos moderator in July that if this nonsense persisted I would post a public response. Funnily enough, only a couple of days ago I was contacted by a member advising me of the problems faced by the Beating Benzos Facebook group and asked if I might be able to help. I responded that although I was unsure of how I could help, I would be willing to try. I added, however, that I was unsure of how any offer of help from me would be received by Rosalind. Well, I guess I now have my answer.

Below, my side of the correspondence with the Beating Benzos moderator to @[Pa...] and me in July. I've redacted the moderator's name and BB username. I have not redacted the username of the BB member who posted a public thread here about the logo (link at the top of this post). As I mentioned near the opening, except for one message, the below does not include PMs from the Beating Benzos moderator. Nor does it include quotes from her within my replies. Consequently, some parts might be a little difficult to follow. Beating Benzos Moderator is free to post her side of the conversation is she should so wish.

On 08/07/2024 at 21:00, [[C...] said:

Hello [Beating Benzos Moderator],

In case you are unaware, there is already a thread about this at BB:

It is not the case that "the logo being used by this site is the same as a preexisting Benzo page's logo- Beating, on FaceBook." It is our own logo, designed by me, from scratch, using Adobe Illustrator.

Conversely, I note that Beating Benzos' logo is a stock image from Adobe and (I expect) is used across the internet:

Butterfly line logo Stock Vector | Adobe Stock

Please be aware that BB has been using this logo for a year, and without any hint of confusion. I am surprised that it has taken this long for Beating Benzos to raise this (non)issue with us.

Please read the thread I linked above. It includes a ten-year old quote from a thread where I discussed creating an intertwined logo, Celtic-style, double-B, with a reversed B. The heavy implication (from you and Beating Benzos) is that I have stolen the image from Beating Benzos which not only does not belong to them, but is not the same as the one I use at BenzoBuddies. My idea of creating this type of image (in of itself, surely not an original idea) pre-dates the creation of Beating Benzos. The full thread where I discussed this is available here:

Favicon for BenzoBuddies - Feedback & Technical Support - Benzodiazepine Withdrawal Support

Additionally, double-B logos are common. Here are some more from Adobe - perhaps one of them would better suit Beating Benzos.

Bb Images – Browse 439,224 Stock Photos, Vectors, and Video | Adobe Stock

Further, I do not know what association @[Ev...] has with Beating Benzos. But I do not take kindly to false claims of trademark infringement and baseless threats of lawsuits. Perhaps @Ever Hopeful is not officially associated with Beating Benzos. But whoever he/she is, they are in apparent communication with the operators of Beating Benzos about this matter.

Thank you for your offer to redesign the BenzoBuddies logo, but I (and @[Pa...], and our other admins for that matter) are very happy with the one we already have in place.

Colin.

 

On 08/07/2024 at 21:08, [[C...] said:

Hi [Beating Benzos Moderator],

I can see that you are trying to be fair and reasonable. But your PM comes on the back of another attempt at contact which baselessly, needlessly, and in public made threats of legal action against me/BB. Further, that thread was originally posted to our main benzo withdrawal forum (until we moved it).

Colin.

 

On 08/07/2024 at 21:28, [[C...] said:

Hi [Beating Benzos Moderator],

This was just so unnecessary. Whatever approach might have been made instead of the public post from @[Ev...], the outcome probably would have been the same: retention of the logo we use now. But there was no need for this unpleasantness. There is nothing for you to act as go-between me/BB and Beating Benzos.

I just find it rather bizarre for this occur a year after we first started using the logo, the false claims (trademarks and that it is the same logo), and the threats of lawsuits, and for all this to be posted to our main withdrawal forum. Frankly, this reflects rather poorly on Beating Benzos.

It seems that you were out of the loop of just about all pertinent information regarding this matter. My comments are not directed towards you.

Take care,

Colin.

Advisedly, for clarity, I include a copy of one PM from the Beating Benzos moderator:

Quote

I just posted this in the Beating Benzos admin group page:

"I have spoken with Colin and he asserts that he has also created his logo from the ground up, independently.
I can see how this could be the case, since the logo consists of 2 simple B's joined into a butterfly - which is relatively straightforward, and apparently also a default logo option in the adobe illustrator app.
He responded to me very calmly and rationally with the explanation, and I personally do not feel as though legal action or threats are warranted here.
I would love to offer any input on making the logo for this site more unique, if you would like to pursue that route, to form the distinction between the groups (?)
Otherwise, I don't see why this group cannot also have the same logo - even if it is confusing that two groups have a very similar logo-
Both groups are doing very good, and very important and necessary work in this arena, and I feel like an alliance should be fostered, rather than ill will ❤
This is just my opinion, as a new moderator, and I understand if your feelings are stronger in another direction, since you have created, grown, and poured your heart and efforts into this wonderful group!"

(I also don't know who Ever Hopeful is, but I may be able to find out)

 

On 08/07/2024 at 21:34, [[C...] said:

Clarification to that. It is not a default Adobe image (but perhaps we are cross purposes and we mean the same thing).

It is one of innumerable images for sale at Adobe, and it seems identical to the one used by Beating Benzos. Presumably, Beating Benzos licensed the image from Adobe. Please compare mine with the one used by Beating Benzos.

 

On 08/07/2024 at 21:38, [[C...] said:

I wished to properly thank you for posting that to the Beating Benzos admins. Hopefully, that will be the end of the matter.

Take care,

Colin.

 

On 08/07/2024 at 21:47, [[C...] said:

Unless this discussion has been occurring in public at Beating Benzos, it appears that @Ever Hopeful is someone within an inner circle there. And she was similarly misinformed about the origins of Beating's logo too.

This is all a bit off. (Not you - I mean the misinformation and the public post at Buddies.)

 

On 10/07/2024 at 13:04, [[C...] said:

Hello [Beating Benzos Moderator]

I am reliably informed that Rosalind posted the following message at her FB group:

Quote

A quick statement to say that Beating Benzos is not affiliated in any way to Benzo Buddies that is now using a logo similar to ours. We don’t ask for contributions or want donations of any kind. I believe an email was sent out to this effect and some members have reported this to us.

The message from Rosalind is disingenuous. The heavy implication being that members of Beating Benzos have been duped into donating to BenzoBuddies.

The email I sent out to our members states 'BenzoBuddies' a number of times within the email, and links to this PayPal donation page:

https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=TPK4JCNZAVKVA

And the first line in my email message:

Quote

Please Support BenzoBuddies

Further, I have received no complaints from our members regarding the use of our logo since sending out my donations email. Nor have we received any complaints about the logo since we started using it a year ago. There is no confusion!

I am growing weary of this - my patience is not infinite. So far we have had someone reportedly speaking on behalf of Beating Benzos make false statements to our primary support forum, your representations via PM (I thought this matter had been resolved), and now this statement from Rosalind.

So far:

1. @[Ev...] speaking on behalf of Beating Benzos falsely reported that we have:
   1. Infringed beating Benzos non-existent trademark
   2. That we have copied Beating Benzos logo
   3. That Beating Benzos owns the image they use for their logo
      1. In reality, it is licensed from Adobe
   4. And made these false claims on our primary support forum.
2. And we now have Rosalind post:
   1. Disingenuous claims that members are confused by a lack of distinction between BenzoBuddies and Beating Benzos
   2. And (falsely) implies that our use of our logo is new and coincided with our email to members requesting donations.
   3. Conflates these two false claims in relation to our donations email.

Again:

• BenzoBuddies was known as BB long before Beating Benzos was created
• Beating Benzos does now own 'BB', or all butterfly, or all entwined 'BB' logos
• I created our logo from scratch using Adobe Illustrator
• I first discussed such a logo ten years ago (I have already provided you with the link)
• The PayPal donations page clearly states, in large letters, and at the top, that the donation is for BenzoBuddies.

In the interim (between the posts from @[Ev...] and the statement posted by Rosalind at Beating benzos, I received your messages too. I felt assured that this matter was now resolved and closed - it appears this not the case.* I am considering making my own announcement to ensure that members common to both communities are properly informed. But I will hold off for a while to allow you the opportunity to respond here.

* I am not blaming you for this.

If there are similar comments from Beating Benzos, or anyone acting on their behalf, please understand that I will fully address this matter with our members, and this will be similarly in public. And I will be VERY plain about my views regarding this matter.

Colin.

 

On 10/07/2024 at 14:18, [[C...] said:

And in case you have not read it, [Beating Benzos Moderator], my email to members.

---

Please Support BenzoBuddies

As you might know, over the past 20 years of helping support people experiencing problems with use and withdrawal of benzodiazepines, BenzoBuddies has neither sought nor accepted donations. However, in July last year, we migrated to new software and a fully hosted solution. This has paid great dividends for members. Prior to the move, BB was all but inaccessible on mobile devices. Now, nearly two-thirds of page impressions are via a mobile device and we are reaching far more people. Even many existing members find the option of using their phones far more convenient.

The new community environment is much easier to use, including a WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) text editor (no more soup of code/tags to style your post content). Notifications are greatly improved, where members are alerted when they are mentioned by other members, ensuring that important comments and feedback are not missed. There are many other great new features too.

Although the move to the new software to continue and expand our mission has been very successful, it comes at a cost - operational expenses have skyrocketed! Further, we are developing several new services for members to help them better manage their withdrawal/tapers (generation of personalized taper plan tables and related utilities). For us to complete development of these utilities and for them to be fully integrated into the platform involves significant expenditure.

If you benefit from BenzoBuddies, and are in a position to help, your donation would be gratefully accepted. Or if we have helped you in the past, your donation will help newer members going through the process of benzodiazepine withdrawal and recovery.

PayPal donations link:

https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=TPK4JCNZAVKVA

For more about our decision to accept donations:

https://benzobuddies.org/topic/278677-benzobuddies-is-now-accepting-donations/

Thank you,

Colin Moran (Founder).

 

On 11/07/2024 at 17:48, [[C...] said:

Quote

[...]

I find it hard to believe that there is any confusion. Not one of our members has raised this with us over the past year; Beating Benzos did not raise the matter with us before a few days ago; and the PayPal donations page could not be clearer about for whom the donation is intended. This is why it strikes me as disingenuous. Of course, the original thread at BB threatening legal action did not help.

Do you have an explanation for the original approach taken by @[Ev...]? (Genuine question - I am not meaning to harangue you about it - you might well not know.)

Quote

[...]

I remain unconvinced, but I'll take on board your perspective/opinion and hold off from public comment for now. Though I'd still like an explanation for the public post on our main withdrawal forum threatening legal action.

Quote

[...]

Well, thank you. It was a long time coming and very much needed. There remains a lot more to roll out, but hopefully soon.

Thank you for your reply, [Beating Benzos Moderator].

Colin.

 

On 11/07/2024 at 19:05, [[C...] said:

Hi [Beating Benzos Moderator],

I assumed that @Ever Hopeful contacted BB on behalf and with the knowledge of Beating Benzos. An assumption, but not an unreasonable one given the content of @Ever's posts and your subsequent contact. That's why I was seeking an explanation. But no worries - and we are just going around in circles at this point.

Thank you for your reply.

Colin.

[[Li...]]

 

Thank you for the clarification, @[Co...].

I hope someone will alert Rosalind to your post so she will stop making false claims about the BenzoBuddies logo.  It sounds to me like she may not have been fully/accurately briefed by the moderator.   In hope of facilitating this, here’s the URL to share with Rosalind:

https://benzobuddies.org/topic/280999-rosalind-beating-benzos-logos-lordy/

 

Out of curiosity, I read the thread from September 2014 you provided in one of your posts to the Beating Benzos moderator:

https://benzobuddies.org/topic/108292-favicon-for-benzobuddies/

 

It’s quite clear that the idea of using interlaced B’s for the BenzoBuddies logo was being discussed by you and other members over 10 years ago — long before the Beating Benzos ‘butterfly’ logo was created.

 

[[Co...]]

5 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Thank you for the clarification, @[Co...].

I hope someone will alert Rosalind to your post so she will stop making false claims about the BenzoBuddies logo.  It sounds to me like she may not have been fully/accurately briefed by the moderator.   In hope of facilitating this, here’s the URL to share with Rosalind:

https://benzobuddies.org/topic/280999-rosalind-beating-benzos-logos-lordy/

Hi Lib.

Well, except for one message, I have not included the PMs from Beating's moderator. Although I cannot be certain, I think my response was fully explained to Rosalind. Irrespective, all the claims made by Rosalind are false, and transparently so - she is responsible for those claims.

5 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Out of curiosity, I read the thread from September 2014 you provided in one of your posts to the Beating Benzos moderator:

https://benzobuddies.org/topic/108292-favicon-for-benzobuddies/

It’s quite clear that the idea of using interlaced B’s for the BenzoBuddies logo was being discussed by you and other members over 10 years ago — long before the Beating Benzos ‘butterfly’ logo was created.

Yes, the present BB logo is based upon ideas I first discussed ten years ago on the open forum. When it came to designing a logo last year, I first searched Adobe for a suitable image I could incorporate. (It would have saved me a lot of time and effort.) This is when I first came across the Adobe butterfly image. It was along the lines of what I needed, but not close enough. So I subscribed to the Adobe Suite and worked up my own 'BB' Celtic-style intertwined Bs using Illustrator to form the beginning of my logo. And then combined that with text for the full logo.

I can understand why Rosalind might have assumed that I took a lead from the logo they use at their website. For this reason, I went to trouble to provide the history behind my choice for the 'BB' part of our new logo to her moderator. I should also point out that unlike Beating Benzos, I incorporated the entwined 'BB' into a full logo, whereas Beating benzos have a separate butterfly icon. It is not even clear to me that their icon is meant as a representation of 'BB'. It just looks like abstracted butterfly image to me, which is why I did not choose it for incorporation into our logo.

And I could have chosen the Adobe image if I had so wished. But I thought I could do better. The cheek of Rosalind to claim that I had stolen her intellectual property when she does not even own the (dissimilar) image Beating Benzos uses as an icon is quite spectacular.

[[vo...]]

What a shame that you have to deal with their nonsense @[Co...].

[[Co...]]

3 hours ago, [[v...] said:

What a shame that you have to deal with their nonsense @[Co...].

I would have thought it a waste of Rosalind's time and she would have better things to do. Especially with the problems Beating Benzos is experiencing with Facebook. It is certainly a monumental waste of my time.