Lorazepam to Valium

[[or...]]

@[mo...] I was taking 1.5 mgs of lorazepam for about 6 months. When my prescriber (a NP) saw the trouble I was having with it -- serious interdose wds -- she was agreeable to my changing to valium. (It was my idea. I had just found BB., She did not know about Ashton and her c/o schedule. She was a little mystified that I was having trouble, but she knew and trusted me. She looked at Ashton --I gave her the relevant info including the Schedules -- and said okay. 

So, your doc. Can you take/send the Ashton info to him and strongly advocate for yourself? If I were you, I wouldn't do the cross on my own without his support. Where will you get the valium? Ideally, he will agree. Because obviously you are in distress and he is wrong about wd lasting only 2-3 days. When I think back, the best thing my NP did for me was to let me try the cross and the eventual taper my way. And she made sure I had a nearly endless supply of valium for when I had to hold. I sure hope you can talk your doc into letting you follow Ashton. 

Hoping for the best outcome for you,

Katz

[[mo...]]

I found him through the benzodiazepines coalition stating he follows the Ashton protocol. That’s why I reached out to him. I’ll ask him about back tracking and starting with the crossover. I did ask initially and he said he recommended the straight switch. I just know I can’t keep going like this. I can’t function at all. 

[[mo...]]

This is the message I sent my provider.

“It is my hope that you don’t consider me a problematic patient. My body is not handling this well and I’m suffering. I’d like to integrate the lorazepam into a shortened crossover of some type along the format of the Ashton protocol. My goal remains to get off the lorazepam, stabilize with the Valium and then begin to taper as quickly as my body will allow. I had hoped I’d be able to handle the direct switch but my body is telling me otherwise. I can learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable but this is far beyond that. It isn’t my intent to inundate you with messages but need to relay the issues I’m currently facing. Thank you!”

[[mo...]]

1 hour ago, [[o...] said:

@[mo...] I was taking 1.5 mgs of lorazepam for about 6 months. When my prescriber (a NP) saw the trouble I was having with it -- serious interdose wds -- she was agreeable to my changing to valium. (It was my idea. I had just found BB., She did not know about Ashton and her c/o schedule. She was a little mystified that I was having trouble, but she knew and trusted me. She looked at Ashton --I gave her the relevant info including the Schedules -- and said okay. 

So, your doc. Can you take/send the Ashton info to him and strongly advocate for yourself? If I were you, I wouldn't do the cross on my own without his support. Where will you get the valium? Ideally, he will agree. Because obviously you are in distress and he is wrong about wd lasting only 2-3 days. When I think back, the best thing my NP did for me was to let me try the cross and the eventual taper my way. And she made sure I had a nearly endless supply of valium for when I had to hold. I sure hope you can talk your doc into letting you follow Ashton. 

Hoping for the best outcome for you,

Katz

He is prescribing the Valium. I went from  .5 mg lorazepam 3 times a day to  5 mg Valium twice a day. He added in 2 mg to take for breakthrough symptoms. I do still have lorazepam left from my last refill with my old provider. I’m also starting to get those brain “zaps” like I had when I tapered Cymbalta a number of years ago. 

Edited August 8 by [mo...]

[[or...]]

@[mo...] imo your valium dose is too low. That's probably a complicating factor. And just a wild thought . . . if this were me, I would look for a new drug provider. I had to do that when my PCP (who originally prescribed the lorazepam) was not at all interested in Ashton or in my getting off the lorazepam. (The drug was originally given to me in hospital when I was extremely anxious after a procedure. My PCP just wrote me a script for the same dosage and I continued taking it). After I realized how awful the interdose wds were from that drug, and how horrid I felt, I wanted off it. So I made a few phone calls and found the an NP who was willing to help me. Of course I had joined BB by then and looked over Ashton so I knew what I wanted. I just wonder if you could do something like that. Also it makes no sense that a direct switch from a short acting benzo to a long acting one is wise. How can your body ever "keep up"? Ashton's whole clinic was based (successfully) on a stepwise crossover with her patients from a short to a long-acting benzo and then a reasonable taper. I am so sad that you are suffering @[mo...] when (again imo) you don't need to. 

Katz

[[mo...]]

Didn’t copy the whole message. This was the first part of the message I sent him.

“Morning. I had no expectations that this would be easy but this is physically and mentally very painful. While I want to taper off of these meds in the most expedient manner possible, I need to still be able to function as a wife, mother, and daughter while doing so. I’m not sure if it is the lack of crossover between the lorazepam and diazepam or that the dose of diazepam is perhaps too low. I appreciate your feedback and advice.”

[[mo...]]

I switched from my provider at the VA who started me on lorazepam. She didn’t tell me how addictive it could be and kept prescribing. Then when I told her I was having problems, she told me to reduce .25 mg very 3-4 days and be done with it in a few weeks. That’s why I looked for and found my current provider I just started with. If I switch again, I’m afraid I’ll look like I’m seeking when all I want to do is get off of them. 

[[or...]]

I hope he pays attention to what you are saying, @[mo...]. None of this is going to be easy, but "letting" you try something different i.e. the Ashton protocol, really ought to be no big deal. I guess his ego is getting in the way. Who knows. Anyhow I hope you can either persuade him to let you try Ashton, or find someone who will. 

Katz

[[or...]]

Yeah, the conventional wisdom is to cut the dose in half for a few days, then in half again, and then presto! you'll be done. Well, some of us can't do that. I tried it . . . what a disaster. No, I don't think you'll be seen as drug-seeking. For heaven's sake, you're trying to get off a drug! My advice (even though you didn't ask for it) is to drop down a tier from docs and try to find a Nurse Practitioner. They're generally (so I've found) more patient-centered.

Katz

[[or...]]

@[mo...] I have to go out for a bit. I'll catch up with you later. In the meantime, stay strong!

Katz

 

[[mo...]]

Hugs and thank you. 

[Guest [Do...]]

22 hours ago, [[m...] said:

I have no clue how much to cut with a 5 and a 2 mg tablet,  how long to hold, etc.

Don't worry about it right now, don't anticipate it. Just focus on stabilize in your new benzo and dose and when your feeling well enough we will help you figure out a taper schedule if your doctor doesn't.

Your doing good, you'll be fine.

Keep strong, keep calm.

[Guest [Do...]]

19 hours ago, [[m...] said:

That’s it. I’m going to take the 2 mg along with the two 5 mg doses tomorrow. Today is day 2 of not taking the extra 2 mg Valium. I’m worse than ever. My skin is burning and pricking/tingling and my pulse of up along with BP. I can’t do another day without the extra Valium. My husband and I truly think the 10 mg from 1.5 mg of lorazepam is too low. I need to stabilize so I can start to taper. I really messed up not taking it but thought I could make it and start to taper from a lower dose. 

In my opinion, @[Pa...] had an important point, you have to be consistent, if you take 12mg instead of 10, do it every day, your brain needs to get used to a certain dose and that's how we trick it when tapering, by dropping that dose very slow and very little but any change like adding extra doses or rescue doses every now and then will make the brain confused and as we are so sensitized you will have big waves.

I made a mistake once making my dose and forgot to remove the ammount i had to taper and i took the whole dose, i spent 2 weeks in a horrible acute wave. In my case i found that the more routine you make your taper the best you will be.

Edited August 8 by Guest
typo

[[mo...]]

Will do. I’m going to take the 12 mg until I can feel I’m pretty stable. Does that feel like I’m not having withdrawal symptoms? I have a feeling my doctor won’t have a plan at that point either. His thoughts were to cut from 10 mg to either 8 or 5 if I’m feeling pretty good. Don’t know how he was listed on the coalition’s website as using the Ashton method. He told me he follows the protocol but it is very apparent he doesn’t. Waste of $495….

[[or...]]

@[mo...] as you seem to be on all valium now, you might look at this Ashton Schedule for tapering valium. What your doc proposes is NOT a taper. Just substitute your valium values for Ashton's. Schedule 2. I used it successfully when I crossed:

https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s2

She has people dropping their valium dose a bit every 1-2 weeks. That works out pretty well. 2 doses a day seems to be okay for most people. If you find you need 3, make adjustments. Don't add more valium, though. Be consistent in total mgs of valium daily.

Do you think this might work for you?

Katz

 

[Guest [Do...]]

1 hour ago, [[m...] said:

Does that feel like I’m not having withdrawal symptoms?

Being stable doesnt mean having zero symptoms, just being functional enough to be able to shower, eat and even cook, and take care of yourself at least. Not being bedbound and having your symptoms bearable is important too, only then you can taper again, if you taper when in a big wave and with huge symptoms it will probably go worse.

We always say here, "listen top your body", when you're stable you will know.

It is pretty risky to drop to 8mg if you can't even stand being at 10mg.

[[mo...]]

1 hour ago, [[o...] said:

@[mo...] as you seem to be on all valium now, you might look at this Ashton Schedule for tapering valium. What your doc proposes is NOT a taper. Just substitute your valium values for Ashton's. Schedule 2. I used it successfully when I crossed:

https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s2

She has people dropping their valium dose a bit every 1-2 weeks. That works out pretty well. 2 doses a day seems to be okay for most people. If you find you need 3, make adjustments. Don't add more valium, though. Be consistent in total mgs of valium daily.

Do you think this might work for you?

Katz

@[or...] I believe so! I would definitely need more 2 mg tablets though  so I can reduce 1 mg at a time as he prescribed sixty 5 mg tablets and thirty 2 mg tablets. Or, I could do 1/4 of the 5 mg which would be 1.25 mg reduction at a time. If that would end up being too much, I could then ask for future scripts to be written in 2 mg tablets. Thanks again! I know I’ve posted a lot this week but am just a mess with everything going on. 

[[or...]]

Glad to help. @[mo...]. Yes, see if you can get him to prescribe more 2's. Dropping 1 mg  every 10 days to 2 weeks seems okay to me. That's what I reduced.  A piece of advice: maybe stay at your 12 mgs (I'm assuming you're starting your taper from  12 mgs) until you feel well enough to start tapering. Again, that's what I did and it turned out okay. I'd tell your doc what you're doing, also. Maybe send him Ashton as he is really no freaking help.

Best wishes,

Katz

Edited August 8 by [or...]

[[mo...]]

He has the Ashton link on his website. That’s why I’m so confused on why he isn’t following the protocol. 

[[or...]]

That certainly is mystifying @[mo...]. Maybe ask him why he isn't following it? ? Chances are he hasn't read it! Sad.

Katz

[[Pa...]]

I'm tempted to let BIC know the doctor listed on their website doesn't actually follow the Ashton protocol, that's a lot of money to charge for false advertising. 

[[mo...]]

24 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

I'm tempted to let BIC know the doctor listed on their website doesn't actually follow the Ashton protocol, that's a lot of money to charge for false advertising. 

I don’t want to make him mad at me though. He knows I’m not happy with his lack of following the protocol so will probably figure out the complaint started with me. At the first appointment, he actually told us he had a patient who surprised herself by tapering quickly off of Valium without any issues and he didn’t think I would have any either. 

[Guest [Do...]]

9 hours ago, [[m...] said:

I don’t want to make him mad at me though. He knows I’m not happy with his lack of following the protocol so will probably figure out the complaint started with me. At the first appointment, he actually told us he had a patient who surprised herself by tapering quickly off of Valium without any issues and he didn’t think I would have any either. 

He made a rookie mistake, we all know or heard of someone who could taper off benzos in a month and had no WD symptoms at al but that doesn't mean everbody can. He is following his experience with that other person with you and that is very wrong, in benzo WD everyone is different, for example some of us are able to drink coffe while others get sick if they do or some can fully exercise while other get triggered big time if we make any physical efforts. But most important, some taper 3% a month while others can taper 15%, some have long windows while others never had one single day of rest.

You should be telling him all those concerns, cause in the end is you the one suffering and if it is clear that that method he did with that other person is not working with you, he should be able to adapt to your needs.

I would suggest maybe changing to another doctor, i know you paid a lot of money but you can give it another chance and then move on. I have paid myself hundreds of $ to psychiatrists who only made my problems worse and put me in this nightmare of WD, i wouldnt trust them anymore.

 

[[mo...]]

He still hasn’t replied. I have no idea where to start over. He was the only on taking new patients even remotely close to me. 
This was his last reply to me 2 days ago:

[[or...]]

@[mo...] okay he expects 2-3 days of s/x while the lorazepam leaves your body and is replaced by valium. He might be right. Or he might not be. However, now that you are on all valium . . . 12 mgs . . . why would you want to go back and start over? What's done is done. True, this was no way to  do a crossover, but if it were me, I would stick with the valium and tough it out. Sooner or later, the lorazepam will be cleared from your body and you will just experience the effects of the valium. Going back to lorazepam will really confuse your body imo. If it were me, I would stick with the valium. I might even  ask him for more valium . . . prescribe more 5 mg tablets . . . so you can get acclimated to a proper dose of valium, 15 mgs. Then stay there until the rotten s/x from lorazepam have left, and you feel more or less stable on 15 mgs. If he balks, you can always quote Ashton's equivalencies to him. 1.5 mgs of lorazepam = 15 mgs of valium. It's in the Ashton protocol which he has advertised on his website. If he won't do what you ask . . . prescribe more 5 mg pills, well I would look hard for another prescriber. You're almost there, morganapam. It was a really dumb cross, but you're  almost at the point where you can take an all-valium dose (ideally 15 mgs), get used to its effect on your body,  and think about a proper taper. (Please read the Aston link I sent you. She advocates dropping 1 mg every 1-2 weeks). 

Hope things work out for you.

Katz