Help please

[[Pa...]]

When I was here years ago, most everyone did water tapers, now it seems like most use jewelers scales, I don't know which is easier or more accurate since I don't have personal experience.  But we have a member, @[...] who used scales, but he went one step further and filled capsules as he annotated here: Benzo Dry Taper Math 

However, since then, he has been telling members that using liquid is much easier, it kind of seems easier to me on the outside looking in because you don't have to have a steady hand, you just plop the pill into the cylinder.

 

[[Li...]]

5 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

When I was here years ago, most everyone did water tapers, now it seems like most use jewelers scales, I don't know which is easier or more accurate since I don't have personal experience.  But we have a member, @[...] who used scales, but he went one step further and filled capsules as he annotated here: Benzo Dry Taper Math 

However, since then, he has been telling members that using liquid is much easier, it kind of seems easier to me on the outside looking in because you don't have to have a steady hand, you just plop the pill into the cylinder.

Thank you.  I definitely need help with tapering. I'm hoping Bob or Ellie will help or give feedback. Thanks Pam 

[[Li...]]

@[Pa...] Did you have stomach cramps or feel like you had a uti as a symptom? 

[[Pa...]]

5 minutes ago, [[L...] said:

@[Pa...] Did you have stomach cramps or feel like you had a uti as a symptom? 

No, thankfully. 

[[El...]]

@[Li...] Your question about tapering methods is an excellent question. It seems most people have the most success tapering if they select a taper method that they feel comfortable using. This method is dependent on at least a couple of factors. These include:

1. Your level of confidence and patience in cutting and weighing your pills/fragments accurately on a scale.

2. Or, your level of confidence in your ability to accurately measure and/or dilute a liquid using a variety of laboratory glassware.

3. Confidence in your ability to do the associated mathematics with that method and/or a willingness to ask for help.

Some things you might consider are:

1. The solubility of your medication if your chose a “home brew” liquid method.

2. Potential difficulties transitioning from a pill form to liquid form if your are currently using pills.

3. Do you want to taper using a “cut and hold” method or a micro taper? The “cut and hold” method is usually fairly straight forward using a scale. A micro taper may be easier using a liquid method.

Remember, though, it is always possible to change your method. It is your taper and you can use or change to a different method…whatever you find to be best for you. I initially used a “cut and hold” method until it seemed to no longer work for me. Then I used a dry micro taper until I could not seem to accurately weigh my pills. Now I am transitioning to a liquid formulation to continue my micro taper.

So glad that you are doing so much better!

 

 

[[Li...]]

7 hours ago, [[E...] said:

@[Li...] Your question about tapering methods is an excellent question. It seems most people have the most success tapering if they select a taper method that they feel comfortable using. This method is dependent on at least a couple of factors. These include:

1. Your level of confidence and patience in cutting and weighing your pills/fragments accurately on a scale.

2. Or, your level of confidence in your ability to accurately measure and/or dilute a liquid using a variety of laboratory glassware.

3. Confidence in your ability to do the associated mathematics with that method and/or a willingness to ask for help.

Some things you might consider are:

1. The solubility of your medication if your chose a “home brew” liquid method.

2. Potential difficulties transitioning from a pill form to liquid form if your are currently using pills.

3. Do you want to taper using a “cut and hold” method or a micro taper? The “cut and hold” method is usually fairly straight forward using a scale. A micro taper may be easier using a liquid method.

Remember, though, it is always possible to change your method. It is your taper and you can use or change to a different method…whatever you find to be best for you. I initially used a “cut and hold” method until it seemed to no longer work for me. Then I used a dry micro taper until I could not seem to accurately weigh my pills. Now I am transitioning to a liquid formulation to continue my micro taper.

So glad that you are doing so much better!

@[El...] My Boyfriend will be helping me with the math. I originally  wanted to just dry taper because I have the scale and file already. I was just worried about accuracy or if I shaved too much off. The dry would seem more manageable in the sense I can cut pills for the week I assume? Main concern is accuracy with cutting 

[[El...]]

@[Li...] Many times I have cut or shaved too much off a pill.  When I do so, I save that pill piece/fragment for a time later in my taper when I am at a lower weight (dose).  Or  I sometimes use 3-4 very small fragments together for one dose.

Sometimes the pill pieces get small and "fiddlely" or your scale starts fluctuating.  But if you are patient with yourself and your scale I think it is possible to get accurate weights for your doses.

Have you gotten the average weight of your pills?  To do so, you need to weigh 10 pills and divide by 10 to get the average weight of 1 pill.  That is the weight (in grams) that you will need for all calculations going forward.

I hope you are having a good day!

[[Li...]]

48 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

@[Li...] Many times I have cut or shaved too much off a pill.  When I do so, I save that pill piece/fragment for a time later in my taper when I am at a lower weight (dose).  Or  I sometimes use 3-4 very small fragments together for one dose.

Sometimes the pill pieces get small and "fiddlely" or your scale starts fluctuating.  But if you are patient with yourself and your scale I think it is possible to get accurate weights for your doses.

Have you gotten the average weight of your pills?  To do so, you need to weigh 10 pills and divide by 10 to get the average weight of 1 pill.  That is the weight (in grams) that you will need for all calculations going forward.

I hope you are having a good day!

@[El...] I haven't done that yet because I will have a refill prescription on Saturday.  I should start with the new refill correct? Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I hope you're feeling well.  

[[El...]]

@[Li...] Correct!  Every time you get a new prescription, you need to re-weigh 10 tablets and find the average weight.  The weight of my 0.5 mg lorezapam tablets has varied between 0.061 grams and 0.051 grams!

Are you feeling stable enough to start your taper?

[[Li...]]

20 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

@[Li...] Correct!  Every time you get a new prescription, you need to re-weigh 10 tablets and find the average weight.  The weight of my 0.5 mg lorezapam tablets has varied between 0.061 grams and 0.051 grams!

Are you feeling stable enough to start your taper?

@[El...]. That's the thing at times I dont know because my anxiety is still so bad, and I have  ruminations with paronoid thoughts. Also, very weak muscles that at times get worse. Things have subsided a bit with the thoughts I have windows but also major waves.  Insomnia is a bit better. I'm stable in the fact that I eat and shower. And go sit outside. But yesterday I couldn't handle the restaurant we went to  for more than 20 30 minutes. We also went to the beach , anxiety the entire time..  If I can stabilize more, that would be great, but I don't know if that will happen. Would love your input. 

[[Pa...]]

I'm sure each of us define stable differently, its easy for me to say you might want to begin reducing because you're able to eat and shower but is there a chance you'll stabilize even more, we just don't know.  Sometimes you have to take a leap of faith and just go for it because as we've said before, you're the subject in this terrible experiment and the only way you'll know how its going to go is to begin.  

 

[[Li...]]

@[Pa...] Thank you for always getting back to me. Do you think I have a chance of feeling better while I taper? Also I get so fearful I won't heal or it will take me years. I am a short term user but IDK if it makes a difference.   

[[Li...]]

I'm at a loss now and so confused. I just had a session with my Therapist, she is an LMFT. She is stating that I'm probably not in benzo withdrawal considering my short-term use and the fact that I'm still on it. She said I should be on a  different medication. Latuda- or another anti psychotic. In her opinion, I have a severe case of OCD and probably not Benzo related. So now I'm really confused as to what is going on. My nurse practitioner who prescribes me the meds tends to feel the same way. I don't know who to trust anymore. I think another medication would be a bad idea. Is it possible this could only be OCD?. 

[[El...]]

Oh dear!  First let me emphasize that I am not a doctor.  But the symptoms you initially presented with (severe anxiety attacks), your struggle with irregular dosing starting 5-6 weeks ago, and your continued anxiety and fearfulness suggest some degree of physical dependence on Ativan. Of course, if you have a diagnosis of OCD, that is going to exascerbate your anxiety and fearfulness. But you are where you are…with the need to taper from Ativan. It may be slightly short-sighted to not recognize that withdrawal symptoms are common while still on Ativan (even short term) and also while attempting to stabilize.

I can’t speak to the impact of introducing Latuda into the mix. If it were me, I would probably avoid it for now. To me, it would seem more prudent to “stay the course”….continuing to stabilize and preparing for a thoughful symptom-led taper.

 

[[Li...]]

13 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

Oh dear!  First let me emphasize that I am not a doctor.  But the symptoms you initially presented with (severe anxiety attacks), your struggle with irregular dosing starting 5-6 weeks ago, and your continued anxiety and fearfulness suggest some degree of physical dependence on Ativan. Of course, if you have a diagnosis of OCD, that is going to exascerbate your anxiety and fearfulness. But you are where you are…with the need to taper from Ativan. It may be slightly short-sighted to not recognize that withdrawal symptoms are common while still on Ativan (even short term) and also while attempting to stabilize.

I can’t speak to the impact of introducing Latuda into the mix. If it were me, I would probably avoid it for now. To me, it would seem more prudent to “stay the course”….continuing to stabilize and preparing for a thoughful symptom-led taper.

Absolutely! I'm not touching any more meds. Ellie Thank you.  I get my prescription Saturday to weigh 

[[Pa...]]

@[Li...], I certainly don't want to disagree with your doctor or your therapist, and like @[El...], I'm not a doctor but I've been reading and talking about benzodiazepine dependence, tolerance and withdrawal since 2008 with thousands of members and your symptoms are classic.  I hope with all my heart you'll listen to your inner voice, the one we count on to guide us safely through life and choose what's best for you at this time.   

[[Li...]]

9 hours ago, [[P...] said:

@[Li...], I certainly don't want to disagree with your doctor or your therapist, and like @[El...], I'm not a doctor but I've been reading and talking about benzodiazepine dependence, tolerance and withdrawal since 2008 with thousands of members and your symptoms are classic.  I hope with all my heart you'll listen to your inner voice, the one we count on to guide us safely through life and choose what's best for you at this time.   

@[El...] @[Pa...]. She's only a LMFT So I personally dont trust her judgment. She doesn't even know me well enough. I have also stabilized much more In the past 3 days. I'm ready to cut once I get my new prescription tomorrow. I'm assuming I would start at 3 or 5 percent? I want to thank you both so much. I'm hoping the taper will be smoother than the stabilizing?  

[[Li...]]

@[El...] @[Pa...] I hope you enjoy the  Labor Day weekend. I have my new prescription. My question is, should I finish the rest of what I have now? Which I believe is only two days' worth of the script before I start the taper with the new script? I was
Also going to start preparing and weighing tomorrow for the week If anyone could assist that would really help me. I know
I've had pretty intense symptoms, but I'm definitely getting better each day. I was thinking a 5% cut to start? Maybe that's too much? I still have symptoms, but I am able to do so much more. Thank you so much. 💓 

[[El...]]

Hi @[Li...]

It sounds like things might be improving?

If it were me, I would wait to begin my taper with my new perscription. This will avoid any potential problems with having to deal with cutting and weighing tablets from different scripts that probably have different average weights.

I tend, personally, to always plan my reductions on the conservative side. My experience has been that it is always easier to speed up my taper (ie. make a larger cut in the future or make smaller cuts more frequently) than it is to recover from an over-large cut. So a 5% cut, for me, would be the maximum. Given the difficulties you have experienced achieving a degree of stability, I would even tend to start with a smaller initial cut, perhaps more in the vicinity of 2.5%. You have come so far and are doing so well. I see no reason to hurry this initial step of your taper. But, I am certainly be interested in @[Pa...]opinion.

Whatever the size cut you decide, it is probably best that you reduce all doses as equivalently as possible, unless of course, there a reason for keeping one dose slightly larger (ie., for p.m. sleep). But keeping them as closely weighted as possible will reduce the possibility of peaks and valleys in your blood serum levels.

Again, you have come a long way in the past few weeks! Congratulations, you are doing well!

Hope you have a restful and enjoyable holiday weekend.

 

[[Li...]]

6 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

Hi @[Li...]

It sounds like things might be improving?

If it were me, I would wait to begin my taper with my new perscription. This will avoid any potential problems with having to deal with cutting and weighing tablets from different scripts that probably have different average weights.

I tend, personally, to always plan my reductions on the conservative side. My experience has been that it is always easier to speed up my taper (ie. make a larger cut in the future or make smaller cuts more frequently) than it is to recover from an over-large cut. So a 5% cut, for me, would be the maximum. Given the difficulties you have experienced achieving a degree of stability, I would even tend to start with a smaller initial cut, perhaps more in the vicinity of 2.5%. You have come so far and are doing so well. I see no reason to hurry this initial step of your taper. But, I am certainly be interested in @[Pa...]opinion.

Whatever the size cut you decide, it is probably best that you reduce all doses as equivalently as possible, unless of course, there a reason for keeping one dose slightly larger (ie., for p.m. sleep). But keeping them as closely weighted as possible will reduce the possibility of peaks and valleys in your blood serum levels.

Again, you have come a long way in the past few weeks! Congratulations, you are doing well!

Hope you have a restful and enjoyable holiday weekend.

That sounds good. How do I start? I will do 2.5. I would be starting on Tuesday but I wanted to use the scale and get them ready tomorrow. @[El...]

[[fa...]]

On 02/08/2024 at 07:47, [[L...] said:

Good morning. The doctor's appointment was OK, I guess. She suggested I go up on paxil ( Im not doing that). She also told me to keep taking the Ativan until the Paxil kicks in because of my extreme anxiety. She claims I can't form a dependency because of the dose ( I don't believe that). I'm continuing to stabilize hopefully, but I have issues sleeping and only feel semi stable during the day. I wake up sweating, and I'm up every hour. I'm wondering if sleep Is affecting me as well? My blood pressure was very high last night, and my body felt numb and i was dizzy. Not sure if you know what this is? I'm getting very anxious and scared. I don't want to take this at all anymore, and I fear the withdrawal process . I thank you so much in advance for helping me

An ssri caused my body to go numb

[[Li...]]

1 minute ago, [[f...] said:

An ssri caused my body to go numb

@[fa...] I can't taper both at the same time

[[El...]]

@[Li...] If you give me the average weight of your pills, I can show you some sample calculations.  I think you said youbwere dosing 3 time per day?  Am I correct?

Let me know!

[[Pa...]]

3 hours ago, [[L...] said:

I still have symptoms, but I am able to do so much more.

You're finally feeling a little bit better so its time to change all that, sheesh, this is a nutty process! 

I like @[El...]'s caution, you've got this. 

[[Li...]]

7 hours ago, [[E...] said:

@[Li...] If you give me the average weight of your pills, I can show you some sample calculations.  I think you said youbwere dosing 3 time per day?  Am I correct?

Let me know!

Yes 3 times a day at 0.5 a dose. 1.5. For the day. I weigh 10?