Best way out?

[[...]]

Hope this is posted in the correct forum. 

I Started seeing a new neurologist in 5/2024 for migraine/neuralgia issues that started after a dental procedure in 10/2023.  While discussing that issue I mentioned "Do you have anything for sleep".  Doc prescribed Clonazepam 1mg. to be taken once before bedtime.  He also suggested taking 5mg of Melatonin to act as a anti-inflammatory for the neuralgia pain due to my intolerance of Indomethicin.   On 6/12/24 I took the first 1mg pill of Clonazepam ( Klonopin ) along with the melatonin and slept like a rock but was real tired throughout the following day.  So from 6/12 through 6/17 ( 6 days )  I took the 1mg pill of the Klon and melation before bedtime.  I called the doctor on 6/18 and told him I believe the Clonazepam was making me tired during the day so he suggested breaking it in half.  From 6/18 through 7/5 ( 19 days ) I was only taking .5mg pill of the Klon along with the 5mg of melatonin.  Was sleeping ok and not to worn down at work.  Not long after starting the .5mg regiment I started noticing a uptick in anxious feelings.  Subtle but noticeable.  Researched a bit and found some people can get anxiety from melatonin, but also looked into side effects of Klonopin and started seeing all the negative sides of this drug and how hard it is to get off of.  That is when I decided to back away from this drug.  Not knowing how slow your "supposed" to go.  On 7/6 I dropped the dose down to .25mg by cutting the .5mg in half.  I continued to take at that .25mg level along with the melatonin.  On 7/11 I had taken a B-complex vitamin in the morning and took a Magnesium supplement with dinner.  This was new to my daily routine and been suggested by a functional medicine doctor to start incorporating into my daily routine. She was aware I was taking Klonopin and melatonin also. That evening of 7/11 I forgot to take the .25 of the Klon before bedtime.  On 7/12 I awoke to pressure in my arms, cramps in my calves, and pins and needles sensations.  Pressure in the arms subsided at work but the cramps in my calves continued all day.  Pins and needles slowed down a little throughout the day.   I followed up with my neurologist on 7/12 and I told him I wanted off the drug and the symptoms I was having, and showed him how I had stepped down to the .25mg.  He suggested going back up to the .5 mg for a month or so to see if the symptoms subside.  

I'm stuck at a crossroad.  I'm still having cramps in my legs, pain in my knee joint, and some burning in the bottoms of my feet.  Still get occasional pin pricks here and there.  This is not endless all day pain and hopefully stays that way,  but it comes and goes for a few hours and usually increases when getting closer to the evening  time when I would normally take my pill.  Pain is tolerable right now but worrisome as you start to think of some chronic pain that maybe I created by maybe getting to aggresive in my ween off.  My weight is down because of this medicine.  Scary.  Of course sleep is not as good but will probably get worse as ween goes on. I know I am fairly sensitive to medicines and want out of the rabbit hole.  I have not taken any further B-complex, magnesium, or melatonin.  Only taking the .25mg of the Klon.  I'm mad that I ever started this med and that I was ever prescribed this med. All I wanted was help in getting some sleep.  Most doctors are flippant in their approach to prescribing these medicines and theweening off process.  But here we are.   

Question lies in what path to follow.  Right now I'm holding at the .25mg of the Klon to see how things play out.  Have been at .25mg for 11 days but symptoms only started  5 days ago and continue.  Can't say if they are getting better or worse at this point.  I have not taken any melatonin since 7/10.  I don't want to step backwards like doc suggested because there is no guarantee that it will help or eliminate my symptoms, or will it??   Not to mention the ween time will be increased due upping to the .5mg for an additional month or so.  The term of use is currently at 35 days so it is fairly short.   

Any thoughts on maybe the one day use of B-complex and magnesium flaring stuff up?  Or missing a dose started the symptom?.  Or my weening process was to much?  Or a combination of all three.  

Do you hold the current .25mg or move back to the .5mg?  How long do you ride out your symptoms before making a move up/down?  What increment down would be suggested due to my short term use, but with current symptoms, before getting off the Ferris wheel of Hell.  What would be the preferred method to taper.  If going back up to .5 due to my current symptoms if the safest way out, so be it.  But it is hard to rewalk your footsteps back when maybe the clear path lies straight ahead of you.  

Suggestions? Comments?  Concerns?

Thanks All. 

[[Pa...]]

Hello @[...], welcome to BenzoBuddies,

I'm amazed your doctor prescribed 1 mg of Klonopin right out of the gate, that's a huge dose for a first time patient, equivalent to about 20 mgs of Valium, I don't doubt you were walking around like a zombie the next day. 

I'm glad you're ready to get off the Ferris wheel of Hell, we hope to see short time users taper off faster than long term, we typically suggest 5-10% every few weeks for long term users.  But short term, we hate to see them taper for longer than they were on the drug.  

I don't see any benefit to going back to .5, I'm not sure it would help, we never know how we're going to react to a reinstatement or updose so holding is the better option.  It will continue to be uncomfortable though, but that's the price we pay to be free.

It will be difficult to know if you're doing the right thing or even if you're improving because our recovery isn't linear, we never know from one day to the next how we're going to feel. 

Many Klonopin users say after a reduction, they begin to see increased symptoms between days 2-5 with them settling around day 10 so they know it's time to reduce again.  Using your symptoms to guide you is the best way to do this. 

I'm sure I haven't answered all of your questions, so lets keep talking.

@[Pa...]

[[...]]

Hello Pamster, 

Forgot to originally post that neuro prescribed 200mg. Carbamazepine 3 times daily for suspected neuralgia head pain caused by dental procedure. Said it would help with Klonpin pain.  Never have been a big medicine guy but current situation makes me even more gun shy on taking more medicine prescribed to "help".  That's what got me down this rabbit hole.

[[Pa...]]

Hi @[...], adjunct medications to help withdrawal are hit and miss, some members are helped, others are hurt, the same goes with supplements, we can't find anything that helps everyone, we're all so different.

How long after prescribing the Klonopin did your doctor prescribe the Carbamazepine, and do you feel its helping?  I was just reading about it and it looks like it will need to be tapered. 

What dose did you decide to settle on, the .25 or the .50?

 

 

[[...]]

Have not started the carbamazepine yet.  Scared to put in the mix.  Have been sitting at .25 for 10 days.  Burning/cramping legs for the past 5 days.  Do not seem to be improving.  Do not want to sit on .25 for to long.  Started taking about 35 days ago but want to get out quickly due to relative short term.  Have symptoms already so the question is sit where I'm at or start dropping and how much.

 

[[Pa...]]

@[...], I'm actually kind of relieved to hear you haven't taken the carbamazepine, so many members end up  being poly drugged because doctors start treating our symptoms with medications that create even more symptoms which they prescribe even more medication for. 

I think I mentioned earlier about supplements, some members have mentioned vitamin B causing them issues but I don't know which one, you might want to check out the Alternative Therapies group, just click join to post or to use the search function.

Topics - Benzodiazepine Withdrawal Support (benzobuddies.org)

It seems like you're still unstable so I'm thinking it would be good to stay at this dose for a bit longer.  I agree, getting off the drug sooner than later is a good idea but your use has changed drastically in the short time you've been on it so a little stability might be a good idea.  We see members hold doses for 2 or 3 weeks so I'd give the .25 a little more time. 

 

[[Fa...]]

Hi @[...]  I wanted to jump in regarding the melatonin.  Melatonin should not be taken while taking a benzodiazepine.  Many people have and do to aid with sleep.  However, there is a long list of psychotropic medications that are not to be taken with melatonin.  The information is easy to find if you research it on-line.  It is the reason I stopped using it.  I'm not sure how many people realize this.  I had to taper it slowly.  However, I was very destabilized, so I may have been able to taper it faster if I were not as acute...but, I played it safe.

[[...]]

On 16/07/2024 at 21:31, [[P...] said:

Hello @[...], welcome to BenzoBuddies,

I'm amazed your doctor prescribed 1 mg of Klonopin right out of the gate, that's a huge dose for a first time patient, equivalent to about 20 mgs of Valium, I don't doubt you were walking around like a zombie the next day. 

I'm glad you're ready to get off the Ferris wheel of Hell, we hope to see short time users taper off faster than long term, we typically suggest 5-10% every few weeks for long term users.  But short term, we hate to see them taper for longer than they were on the drug.  

I don't see any benefit to going back to .5, I'm not sure it would help, we never know how we're going to react to a reinstatement or updose so holding is the better option.  It will continue to be uncomfortable though, but that's the price we pay to be free.

It will be difficult to know if you're doing the right thing or even if you're improving because our recovery isn't linear, we never know from one day to the next how we're going to feel. 

Many Klonopin users say after a reduction, they begin to see increased symptoms between days 2-5 with them settling around day 10 so they know it's time to reduce again.  Using your symptoms to guide you is the best way to do this. 

I'm sure I haven't answered all of your questions, so lets keep talking.

@[Pa...]

Hi, you mentioned you hate to see short time users taper longer than they have used.  I have been holding my nightly dose of .25mg for just over 2 weeks with symptoms feeling "ok".  Made dry cut last night.  Took off 15% by weight.  Felt symptoms of tight muscles and sore knee joints this morning.  Guess this is normal to feel a  reaction this soon?  Too big a cut? To small a cut?  Don't want to rush it but do not want to be on longer than necessary.  Possibly could have made a 25% cut, but maybe that is to aggressive.  I hear both sides of the spectrum being discussed.   Not sure if I made the right decision.  

[[Pa...]]

Hi @[...], I don't think your cut was too big, you had to start big to know how this is going to go.  For people who have been on the drug for decades, I suggest starting out low but your situation is different, we need to know how quickly you can do this. I suspected you were going to be uncomfortable but if you can do this, if you can endure the symptoms then I still think getting off quickly is your best bet.

I'm glad you didn't cut the 25% but Skip, please pay attention to your symptoms, if they get to be too much then we'll know this isn't going to work.  Some short time users have to taper just as slowly as the long time users, and accepting that is very difficult but you need to be able to function as you rid yourself of the drug.

As for not being sure if you're making the right decision, you're going to second guess yourself throughout this process.  The drug brings out every negative emotion in us and we blame ourselves and live in fear.  Even after members are through with their tapers, they wonder if they did it right, will they heal because of the possible mistakes they made?  My answer to that is yes, you can heal, heck I quit cold turkey, something we never suggest and I made it out and you can too. 

[[...]]

Yes, fear is the demon we fight.  The symptoms come upon us and we judge our decisions.

How bad were your symptoms when you quit cold turkey?  What symptoms were they?  How long did they last?  How long for you to heal?

My cramping/burning legs seems to be my biggest symptom.  Which had eased up while sitting on .25mg until this first cut I made. Hoping it will settle down in the week ahead.  Also notice uptick in early morning issue with staying asleep.  At what point do I say a quick taper is to much?

The doctor that prescribed Klon told me just quit taking the med, or take every other day for a week and stop.  Can't imagine what would happen if I did that.

Let's keep talking.

[[Pa...]]

Hey @[...],

It sounds like you're familiar with the demons this process subjects us to, its amazes me how we lose our positive emotions, our love, joy, laughter, everything that makes us who we are.  I couldn't recognize myself which made it so I couldn't relate to others, its such a lonely process.  But, everything came back when I recovered, I'm still grateful.

Its tough to know if you've cut too much, but let me tell you what I tell others.  First we have to define stable because we tell members to reduce, then when they feel stable, to reduce again.  Being stable, at least the way we define it is you're able to perform your daily tasks, like shower, make a simple meal, things like that, it doesn't mean feeling good.  So, where are you in terms of how we define stable?  I don't want you to suffer, but I also don't want you to throw in the towel if you're functioning.  

I'm so glad you didn't listen to that doctor, too many of them tell their patients to take the pills every other day, this causes a serious disruption to blood serum levels exacerbating withdrawal symptoms!

I'll let my success story tell my tale.  

 

[[...]]

On 24/07/2024 at 13:43, [[P...] said:

Hey @[...],

It sounds like you're familiar with the demons this process subjects us to, its amazes me how we lose our positive emotions, our love, joy, laughter, everything that makes us who we are.  I couldn't recognize myself which made it so I couldn't relate to others, its such a lonely process.  But, everything came back when I recovered, I'm still grateful.

Its tough to know if you've cut too much, but let me tell you what I tell others.  First we have to define stable because we tell members to reduce, then when they feel stable, to reduce again.  Being stable, at least the way we define it is you're able to perform your daily tasks, like shower, make a simple meal, things like that, it doesn't mean feeling good.  So, where are you in terms of how we define stable?  I don't want you to suffer, but I also don't want you to throw in the towel if you're functioning.  

I'm so glad you didn't listen to that doctor, too many of them tell their patients to take the pills every other day, this causes a serious disruption to blood serum levels exacerbating withdrawal symptoms!

I'll let my success story tell my tale.  

Thanks for talking and sharing your story.  By your description of being stable I'm able to function fine.  I go to work, shower, and perform day to day tasks.  My leg muscles still cramp and knee joints hurt but feel better than the first day after my initial cut from .25mg. Well, since my symptoms aren't debilitating it might be time to try another cut, or give a few more days?  It has only been 4 days since cut.  Not ready to throw in the towel.  The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step.  Keep stepping forward is the goal.   Let's keep talkin.

[[Pa...]]

I'm gratified to know your symptoms aren't keeping you from taking care of busines and I agree, it might be a good idea to hold a few more days, lets see if things settle a bit more.  

How is your sleep, you mentioned you were waking up too early?  Since sleep was the reason you were prescribed, I can see this being an issue as you taper and recover but I hope you won't panic like I did and reach for another poison.  We have a member who has made an exhaustive list of helpful suggestions that centers on acceptance.  

 

[[Os...]]

Hi Skip,

I was also a short user, and have found that a slow taper is working best for me. I was on valium for 2 weeks, then switched to Temazepam 15mg for 1 week, then upped to 30mg for 2 weeks. When I was at that peak dosage, I got tingling in all my limbs, and my right leg began cramping and feeling weak. I freaked out, and self-reduced my dosage down to 15mg. This was in early June. After 1 week at 15mg Temazepam, I switched back to valium (5mg), and have been tapering ever since. I started making weekly cuts of 1mg (actually 0.5 mg every 3-4 days), and was doing well, with symptoms, but not horrible. Then, the reductions started to hit me, and I had to slow down. I sat at 1.5mg for about 2 weeks, before I started a slow taper, reducing 1% a night using a scale.

Some things from that journey that I wanted to share with you:

1) The leg symptoms aren't likely to go away quickly. I've been in physical therapy for my back, and we've been addressing the leg issues. When measured, my leg strength is actually decent, it's just that the cramping and the nervous system is out of whack. But, I'm working at keeping them strong. It's really hard with the cramping. Some days are better than others. What I've found is that my emotional state strongly correlates to the physical symptoms, and vice versa. If I wake up feeling anxious, it makes my body hurt. If my body hurts, I get anxious, feeling "oh no, not again". Have patience that you're on the right track.

2) It might get harder as you get lower in dosage. This image shows diazepam, and the GABA receptors that are affected. The lower you get, the more dramatic the difference to your brain. 

3) There is an end in your future to this. I'm doing a slow taper because I'm trying to minimize the withdrawal symptoms, but even short-term users can experience difficulty.

4) This forum is GREAT. I come here everyday and @[Pa...] has been especially helpful in my understand of what's going on, and people here are a great sounding board for questions and ideas. But, there are a lot of people suffering on here with bad horror stories. But, there are a lot of people who are going through benzo withdrawal with success who have either stopped posting here or have never posted. I recommend you listen to the podcast POWER OVER PILL. It is a woman's story of long-term benzo use who employed a slow taper method. There were bumps along the way, but she was able to do a long-term taper with great success. You can do this, but you're going to have to listen to your body and your heart to know how fast you can go.

I hope you start to feel better soon. You deserve to. My mantra when I can't sleep or when I'm suffering is "this is tolerable and temporary." I say it over and over again, and it gives me comfort.

 

Edited July 31 by [Os...]