Need help with Valium taper!

[[No...]]

Hello!

 

I am in desperate need of some guidance in order to taper off of my valium.. 

 

Ive been on daily valium for about 8 months now total. Since around November of last year, my dose had increased in the beginning from 10mgs to 20mgs pretty quickly. I then stayed on that dose for about 4 months until I decided to do a somewhat slow taper.

 

Mar 21st is when I had started my taper from 20mgs. It took 3-4 months but  I successfully made it down to 11mgs by dry cut tapering off 1.25mgs a week. After several weeks, I feel somewhat stabilized on 11mgs.

 

So Im now on 11mgs, but Im stuck..

 

The taper so far wasn’t comfortable but I was able to power through it. Mind you, I am still having to work my stressful job and attempting to lead a normal life during all of this.

 

The problem is that I have hit a brick wall..

My psych has prescribed me 2mg tablets to add to my 5mg tablets so I can break the 2’s down in quarters and attempt cutting by .5 mgs. 

 

It sounded like a small enough cut to me at the time until I tried it, and now every time I try to drop .5, I experience withdrawal symptoms that I cannot seem to function with.

 

Dark thoughts and extreme discomfort. Unable to relax. Increased anxiety and insomnia.

 

i’m assuming that this means I need to reduce my cuts, but there is no way of doing this by dry cutting. 

 

(The smallest I can break is .5 because I cannot break a quarter in half without it crumbling..)

 

So I have been reading online about water tapers, or using scales and I’m wondering what the best option for me would be. Whenever I try to research it, I get very overwhelmed and confused and I can’t risk doing it improperly.

 

For the record, I’m not opting out of the following strategies. Im open to whatever might help. Just expressing my concerns.

 

Concerns for the scale method: 

-shaving down a quarter pill seems very tedious in the fact that I might shave off too much when weighing it. Also the fact that the pill are very crumbly it may be hard to manipulate in that way, but I haven’t tried it.

 

Concerns for the water taper method:

 

-I have read that this method has worked well for many people, but I also have heard that the medication is not water soluble so it may need some type of suspension liquid and possibly that it may not be very accurate.

 

-Despite the long half-life of diazepam, I do have to take a dose four times a day in order to maintain an even blood level. Due to my high metabolism, Its just what works for me the best it seems. So splitting up the water in four different jars just seems tedious, but I will do it if I have to!

 

 

 

So here’s my daily dose schedule for reference.

 

Dose 1: 3.5 mgs (Half a 5mg tab and half a 2mg tab together)

Dose 2: 2.5mgs

Dose 3: 2.5 mgs

Dose 4: 2.5 mgs

 

TOTAL: 11 mgs

 

Im thinking the starting point would be to just eliminate that 1mg piece from dose 1 whether it be from a scale or water..

 

Thank you so much for your advice and guidance in advance. This has been one of the hardest things Ive ever had to do in my life and I know the worst is yet to come, but I’m trying not to give up and reach out for help anyway I can and doing my best.

 

PS any additional advice on getting through this mentally would be helpful. I am struggling to enjoy life at all and have bleak hopes for the future and my resilience to handle this.

 

Thanks again!

 

[[Pa...]]

Hi @[No...], I notice you've created several threads on the taper board, we generally prefer members use just one thread so they and the members who are contributing can see what has been suggested.  So, lets make this your official taper thread, okay?

I didn't taper but I agree that in order for you to slow things down, you'll need to change your taper method.  I know both using liquid or scales sounds overwhelming but I'm told that once you get used to working with them, they become second nature.

If you're interested in using a liquid, yes, benzodiazepines don't dissolve well but that only means you have to agitate it before ingesting, its not a big deal.  And weighing, it can be time consuming but we have many members who can guide you.  You just tell us which method you prefer and we'll get you through it.

 

[[kn...]]

I’ve been tapering diazepam for almost three years. Started with a crossover dosage of 60mgs. Am now at 2.146 mg.  Had been taking that for thirty years. Chopping up pills at higher dosages will work fine until you get down to the lower dosages ie. 10 and less. At that point, even cutting a quarter of a 2mg pill can throw you into several months of suffering before you stabilize. Dry tapering with scale (Gemini from Amazon- must be good for milligrams- ) is what you need. That and a good nail file. Once you’ve come that far, put out another post on this same thread so we can find you. Someone will be by to teach you the methodology. Ellie M is the best. Simple instructions and infinite patience. If she’s not around, someone else will show up. 

[[Li...]]

Hello @[No...].

1 hour ago, [[N...] said:

My psych has prescribed me 2mg tablets to add to my 5mg tablets so I can break the 2’s down in quarters and attempt cutting by .5 mgs. 

It sounds like you have a benzo cooperative prescriber.  If so, are you aware that a commercially manufactured oral solution of diazepam is available via prescription?  Here’s a link to the official FDA Drug Label from Hikma, one of the manufacturers:

DailyMed - DIAZEPAM 5mg/5mL (1mg/mL) solution

Given that you are taking low-ish divided doses and are concerned about obtaining accurate doses, the manufacturer’s liquid (or a combination of liquid and tablets) might be an option worth consideration.

Member and moderator @[Fa...] has been using a combination of regular tablets and the commercial diazepam solution to taper successfully.  You can view his history and access his tapering thread at:

Faith Hope Love's Profile

 

[[No...]]

1 hour ago, [[P...] said:

Hi @[No...], I notice you've created several threads on the taper board, we generally prefer members use just one thread so they and the members who are contributing can see what has been suggested.  So, lets make this your official taper thread, okay?

I didn't taper but I agree that in order for you to slow things down, you'll need to change your taper method.  I know both using liquid or scales sounds overwhelming but I'm told that once you get used to working with them, they become second nature.

If you're interested in using a liquid, yes, benzodiazepines don't dissolve well but that only means you have to agitate it before ingesting, its not a big deal.  And weighing, it can be time consuming but we have many members who can guide you.  You just tell us which method you prefer and we'll get you through it.

Hi Pam, My crossover and taper process has evolved a lot over time which explains the various other threads, but now that Im fully on valium I can consolidate to this thread. Thanks for your input.

[[No...]]

2 minutes ago, [[L...] said:

Hello @[No...].

It sounds like you have a benzo cooperative prescriber.  If so, are you aware that a commercially manufactured oral solution of diazepam is available via prescription?  Here’s a link to the official FDA Drug Label from Hikma, one of the manufacturers:

DailyMed - DIAZEPAM 5mg/5mL (1mg/mL) solution

Given that you are taking low-ish divided doses and are concerned about obtaining accurate doses, the manufacturer’s liquid (or a combination of liquid and tablets) might be an option worth consideration.

Member and moderator @[Fa...] has been using a combination of regular tablets and the commercial diazepam solution to taper successfully.  You can view his history and access his tapering thread at:

Faith Hope Love's Profile

Thanks for the recommendation. I am considering prescription variations like this. It definitely seems like it would be my preferred method. The only thing that I fear would almost certainly get in the way is insurance coverage for special pharmacies and compounded solutions. Not sure what out of pocket costs would be but Im sure its not cheap.

[[No...]]

1 hour ago, [[k...] said:

I’ve been tapering diazepam for almost three years. Started with a crossover dosage of 60mgs. Am now at 2.146 mg.  Had been taking that for thirty years. Chopping up pills at higher dosages will work fine until you get down to the lower dosages ie. 10 and less. At that point, even cutting a quarter of a 2mg pill can throw you into several months of suffering before you stabilize. Dry tapering with scale (Gemini from Amazon- must be good for milligrams- ) is what you need. That and a good nail file. Once you’ve come that far, put out another post on this same thread so we can find you. Someone will be by to teach you the methodology. Ellie M is the best. Simple instructions and infinite patience. If she’s not around, someone else will show up. 

Ok, so you have found that the file and weigh method is worked better for you then the water taper?

[[Li...]]

 

2 minutes ago, [[N...] said:

Thanks for the recommendation. I am considering prescription variations like this. It definitely seems like it would be my preferred method. The only thing that I fear would almost certainly get in the way is insurance coverage for special pharmacies and compounded solutions. Not sure what out of pocket costs would be but Im sure its not cheap.

You’re welcome.  Are you in the US?  If so, the oral diazepam solution is available from regular pharmacies.  According to Good Rx, the out of pocket cost without insurance is quite reasonable.  

[Guest [Do...]]

3 hours ago, [[N...] said:

Hello!

I am in desperate need of some guidance in order to taper off of my valium.. 

Ive been on daily valium for about 8 months now total. Since around November of last year, my dose had increased in the beginning from 10mgs to 20mgs pretty quickly. I then stayed on that dose for about 4 months until I decided to do a somewhat slow taper.

Mar 21st is when I had started my taper from 20mgs. It took 3-4 months but  I successfully made it down to 11mgs by dry cut tapering off 1.25mgs a week. After several weeks, I feel somewhat stabilized on 11mgs.

So Im now on 11mgs, but Im stuck..

The taper so far wasn’t comfortable but I was able to power through it. Mind you, I am still having to work my stressful job and attempting to lead a normal life during all of this.

The problem is that I have hit a brick wall..

My psych has prescribed me 2mg tablets to add to my 5mg tablets so I can break the 2’s down in quarters and attempt cutting by .5 mgs. 

It sounded like a small enough cut to me at the time until I tried it, and now every time I try to drop .5, I experience withdrawal symptoms that I cannot seem to function with.

Dark thoughts and extreme discomfort. Unable to relax. Increased anxiety and insomnia.

i’m assuming that this means I need to reduce my cuts, but there is no way of doing this by dry cutting. 

(The smallest I can break is .5 because I cannot break a quarter in half without it crumbling..)

So I have been reading online about water tapers, or using scales and I’m wondering what the best option for me would be. Whenever I try to research it, I get very overwhelmed and confused and I can’t risk doing it improperly.

For the record, I’m not opting out of the following strategies. Im open to whatever might help. Just expressing my concerns.

Concerns for the scale method: 

-shaving down a quarter pill seems very tedious in the fact that I might shave off too much when weighing it. Also the fact that the pill are very crumbly it may be hard to manipulate in that way, but I haven’t tried it.

Concerns for the water taper method:

-I have read that this method has worked well for many people, but I also have heard that the medication is not water soluble so it may need some type of suspension liquid and possibly that it may not be very accurate.

-Despite the long half-life of diazepam, I do have to take a dose four times a day in order to maintain an even blood level. Due to my high metabolism, Its just what works for me the best it seems. So splitting up the water in four different jars just seems tedious, but I will do it if I have to!

So here’s my daily dose schedule for reference.

Dose 1: 3.5 mgs (Half a 5mg tab and half a 2mg tab together)

Dose 2: 2.5mgs

Dose 3: 2.5 mgs

Dose 4: 2.5 mgs

TOTAL: 11 mgs

Im thinking the starting point would be to just eliminate that 1mg piece from dose 1 whether it be from a scale or water..

Thank you so much for your advice and guidance in advance. This has been one of the hardest things Ive ever had to do in my life and I know the worst is yet to come, but I’m trying not to give up and reach out for help anyway I can and doing my best.

PS any additional advice on getting through this mentally would be helpful. I am struggling to enjoy life at all and have bleak hopes for the future and my resilience to handle this.

Thanks again!

Hi @[No...] I was cutting diazepam pills as well and at one point i got hit by the whole brick wall, i then switched to manufacturer's liquid, not compound, it makes a lot of difference in terms of price, date of expiry etc. I am now at 2.93mg daily and i am micro tapering between 5-10% a month, it took me 3 whole months to drop 1mg from 4 to 3mg and still had bad waves and struggled with symptoms, what you're experiencing is without a doubt the effects of tapering too fast. I strongly suggest you to read about hyperbolic taper, ie. if you taper 0.5mg from 5mg you're dropping 10%, if you taper 0.5mg from 3mg you're dropping 16.66% so you can't taper the same ammount every period of time cause you total dose is dropping and you have to slow down. One of the more used advices among benzo users is "when you go low, go slow".

Tapering from liquid is very easy using simple maths and mixing your manufacturer's with water will allow you to remove easily with a syringe the amount you need to taper. It is all about trying to keep functional and with the least symptoms possible.

What i would do in your shoes is to stop tapering and stabilize your symptoms and use that time to research, and figure out the best way to resume you taper.

I hope i was of help.

Edited July 13 by Guest

[[No...]]

1 hour ago, [[L...] said:

You’re welcome.  Are you in the US?  If so, the oral diazepam solution is available from regular pharmacies.  According to Good Rx, the out of pocket cost without insurance is quite reasonable.  

Yes Im in California. I have the Good rx app. I can try looking it up

[[No...]]

16 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

Hi @[No...] I was cutting diazepam pills as well and at one point i got hit by the whole brick wall, i then switched to manufacturer's liquid, not compound, it makes a lot of difference in terms of price, date of expiry etc. I am now at 2.93mg daily and i am micro tapering between 5-10% a month, it took me 3 whole months to drop 1mg from 4 to 3mg and still had bad waves and struggled with symptoms, what you're experiencing is without a doubt the effects of tapering too fast. I strongly suggest you to read about hyperbolic taper, ie. if you taper 0.5mg from 5mg you're dropping 10%, if you taper 0.5mg from 3mg you're dropping 16.66% so you can't taper the same ammount every period of time cause you total dose is dropping and you have to slow down. One of the more used advices among benzo users is "when you go low, go slow".

Tapering from liquid is very easy using simple maths and mixing you manufacturer's with water will allow you to remove easily with a syringe the amount you need to taper. It is all about trying to keep functional and with the least symptoms posible.

I What i would do in your shoes is to stop tapering and stabilize your symptoms and use that time you research, and figure out the best way to resume you taper.

I hope i was of help.

if I can realistically get my hands on the liquid form, I imagine it would be preferred rather than using tablets for water tapering..

[Guest [Do...]]

6 minutes ago, [[N...] said:

if I can realistically get my hands on the liquid form, I imagine it would be preferred rather than using tablets for water tapering..

I tried disolving pills in water and trust me, no matter how much you shake it, you end up with a "snow globe", water with a lot of white dust floating in it. Liquid from the brand is much easier to mix and taper and also it is very stable in terms of storage, you dont need to keep it refrigerated and it lasts a lot of time after you open the bottle, with the compound it expires in very few days afer you get it.

Edited July 13 by Guest

[[No...]]

7 hours ago, [[D...] said:

I tried disolving pills in water and trust me, no matter how much you shake it, you end up with a "snow globe", water with a lot of white dust floating in it. Liquid from the brand is much easier to mix and taper and also it is very stable in terms of storage, you dont need to keep it refrigerated and it lasts a lot of time after you open the bottle, with the compound it expires in very few days afer you get it.

I see. I know you said it was simple math but Im still so confused on how to go about this. Which syringe should I use. I can get one off amazon but which one? And what size jar. Its just so confusing to me 

[[No...]]

Just now, [[N...] said:

I see. I know you said it was simple math but Im still so confused on how to go about this. Which syringe should I use. I can get one off amazon but which one? And what size jar. Its just so confusing to me 

It would be nice if I didn’t have to dilute the solution to begin with and draw straight from the issued bottle but maybe thats not possible. Idk

[Guest [Do...]]

6 hours ago, [[N...] said:

It would be nice if I didn’t have to dilute the solution to begin with and draw straight from the issued bottle but maybe thats not possible. Idk

Hi again @[No...]

I will give you my example, i get brand's liquid diazepam that comes concentrated 1ml/2mg that means in 1ml you get 2mg of diazepam. So i diluted my rx liquid 19:1, that means i put 1ml of the drug which has 2mg of diazepam in 19ml of water then the diluted solution is 2mg diazepam per 20 ml, or  .1mg per ml .  With a syringe you could then easily make reductions as small as .01 mg.

Easy maths, if 20ml = 2mg, if you remove 1ml you're tapering 0.1mg but as i am micro tapering i remove 0.1ml with a syringe every day which equals 0.01mg of diazepam and so on.

i know you can buy non concentrated solution as @[Li...] adviced DailyMed - DIAZEPAM 5mg/5mL (1mg/mL) solution would be your best option so you just need to add 9ml of water for every ml of the drug to have a 10:1 solution, that means you can have for example 2.5mg in 25ml of water and taper whatever you want:

remove 1ml = 0.1mg for bigger cuts

remove 0.1ml = 0.01mg for daily micro taper

As you are in 11mg total a day if you taper 1.1ml of the solution in 1 month you are tapering 10% of your dose.

You can chose any syringe you want, i use 3ml syiringes that comes with 0.1ml marks and use a 10ml syringe to add the 19ml of water.

 

 

[[Fa...]]

Hi, @[No...].  Sorry I was not around this weekend; however, I wanted to respond to your thread.

On 14/07/2024 at 00:48, [[N...] said:

It would be nice if I didn’t have to dilute the solution to begin with and draw straight from the issued bottle but maybe thats not possible. Idk

I use a combination of 2mg tablets and the 5mg/5mL (1mg/1mL) Hikma liquid solution that @[Li...] mentioned upthread.  Using a 1mL oral syringe, with .01mL graduation marks, I can easily make .01mg/mL and .02mg/mL daily reductions without diluting the solution.  Also, my insurance covers the Hikma liquid solution in addition to the tablets.  I pay less than $20/mo for my 2 prescriptions in the US.

Feel free to read through my diazepam taper thread as @[Li...] mentioned (link is within my profile under 'History') where I received invaluable input before I proceeded with my taper strategy.  I also give period updates within the thread.  Wish you the best!