Day Dosing Ambien...desperate!

[[sh...]]

I have been on a high dose of ambien - around 60mgs a night, for about a year.  I started when I had Covid, for some reason that makes no sense to me at all in hindsight.  I am also taking 2.5 mgs Klonopin per day for 20 years.  Those Klons have never been a problem and have had success tapering down with micro tapering in the past.  So about Oct last year I decided to come down from my high Ambien usage by dividing my doses 10 mg 3 times a day and 30 mgs at night so I can still sleep.  Believe it or not, it is still effective for sleep.  However, I wish I had never started this foolishness.  I am completely and utterly obsessed by my day doses - noon, 3pm & 6pm.  I suffer so much interdose withdrawals, that I spend all day, every day staring at the clock.  After I take my dose, I don't feel great, just not as crappy as I did before I dosed.  I know there are people in this community like @pamster who have gone thru Ambien hell and this is where I'm at.  These interdose withdrawals are killing me.  I do nothing but sit and wait out the clock.  Why did I think this was a good idea?  How to rectify this situation?  I am not even sure I had interdose when I was just dosing (admittedly a huge amount) once at night.  Should I taper my day doses?  should I get my sleeping does to equal the day doses?  I know that Ashton says that you should transition to a longer half-life drug to eliminate the z-drug interdose short half-life, but I am already on a long half-life Benzo.  Would upping that dose the equivalent of the Ambien help?  I honestly feel like taking a handful of Klonopin wouldn't touch the Ambien w/d symptoms.  It's like they are entirely 2 different drugs.   I purchased the Mausdley Deprescribing guidelines, but he only recommends the transition to longer Benzo.  Also, no one really talks about super high doses of Ambien.  Almost want to get a benzo coach, as I have been struggling and my life is on hold until I can get this behind me. Should I just take a couple of days and tough out ditching the day dosing and then get back to tapering the night, or should I try to get equal doses day/night and proceed from there?  So many questions and absolutely nowhere to look for answers.  Every Ambien story I read is from people tapering from their normal 10mg dose. UGHGH.  Please respond, someone. I have posted in this forum before and received zero responses.

[[Em...]]

Hi there,

Have you just divided your dose and not lowered it at all? Still taking 60 mg a day?

This is only a thought. I have never taken ambien at daytime so I do not have any experiance in this, just thought I would give you my two cents since you seem desperate.

Since you are already sleeping through the night, and you are already on benzos during the day, maybe start cutting the day doses of the ambien? And get them out of the way? Do you think that would be hard?

Another thing would be to move them back to before bed and taper from there... but were you having interdose withdrawal and that's why you divided the dose up in the first place?

I don't know if I would want to up the klonopin to get rid of ambien during the day (only because in my experiance it was easier to come off of ambien, again that's only me!!) - maybe others will comment on that.

I am so sorry for this messed up position you are in ❤

Stay strong, you will find your way. I hope others will comment on here to guide you.

Best of luck 🌻

[[Em...]]

Sorry I read again, see that you did not have interdose WD before dividing the up the dose.

If I were you I think I would either:

Move it back to before bed and cut from there or

Take 20mg x3 times a day and taper them equally down, OR

Taper the daytime pills as fast as possible without getting disfunctional. If that is possible. Maybe it will cause problems, maybe not because you have the K in your system and still a pretty big dose to sleep. 

I think you must just listen to your instinct and start trying something that you feel might be best. Keep a diary. 

Again, I'm sorry you got yourself into this mess 🥺

Don't be hard on yourself, I really believe you can fix this 💪🏼

[[vo...]]

UGH. I was afraid I was going to read that someone else was day dosing Ambien and here you are. I went off Xanax a year ago and one of the w/d symptoms was lack of sleep, so my doctor prescribed Ambien. Because I've had such bad w/d symptoms, several months ago I decided to try taking 2.5mg of Ambien to see if it helped and it does so I take it every day, twice during the day and then again at night. I just can't handle the xanax w/d symptoms. My doctor won't prescribe more than 7.5mg a day, so I ration it to 3 doses a day. Of course she doesn't know I'm taking it during the day. I'm ok with this, because all of these drugs, the benzos and the Ambien go through our liver and I don't want to screw up my liver. I've had a CT scan on it and I have fatty liver so I do want to get off of the Ambien too so the fatty liver can reverse itself, which it may be doing already since I'm no longer on a high done of xanax. I was on 6mg a day for 40+ years. I'm just waiting for the benzo w/d symptoms to lessen so I can reduce the Ambien. I hope you can do the same 

[[Ca...]]

I know of one woman who takes about 15 ambien a day and at night. Have not heard from her lately and she's not on BB but I will text her and see if she ever started a taper.

I worry about fatty liver disease....did you have any symptoms or did it show up on blood work? I ave been on benzos on and off for 30 years and also subutec as a substitute for the opiates I was prescribed for bad degenerative disc disease which I am also very slowly tapering.

[[vo...]]

On 05/07/2024 at 23:55, [[C...] said:

 

I worry about fatty liver disease....did you have any symptoms or did it show up on blood work?

It showed up in the CT Scan. Then I met with a hepatologist several months later, who reviewed the scan and physically checked me. He told me I was ok and wouldn't need to be seen again for 5 years. I promised my liver I wouldn't cause it any more harm. LOL!

[[Pa...]]

Hi @[sh...], I saw a post of yours on another thread but I'd like to talk to you about your Ambien use, are you up for it?

@[Pa...]

[[sh...]]

Yes! @[Pa...]

 

 

Edited August 2 by [sh...]

[[Pa...]]

Our stories are similar except that I started Ambien a few months after my cold turkey from Klonopin.  I was day dosing too and the withdrawals were horrible, I could only get 3 hours of sleep at a time and taking the drug during the day left me with big holes in my memory, its a hypnotic after all.

I was terrified to go one night, one day without the Ambien, the terror I felt went far beyond simply not being able to sleep or the fear of withdrawals, it felt as if my life depended on me getting and taking the drug, until one day when I just stopped and my life got better almost instantly.  

I can share more but am wondering what kind of symptoms you're dealing with if you don't take the Ambien.  

[[sh...]]

@[Pa...]Symptoms - tinnitus and weird fluttering sounds in ear, pressure and pain in ear, inner trembling, and a uncharacteristic need to be alone and at home. Very unmotivated to do anything unless I absolutely have to. Avoid social situations and doing things I used to enjoy.  No sex drive, Benzo belly. Anxiety about leaving my comfort zone. Fear of losing control. Racing heart rate at times.  All symptoms relieved after dosing, and I don't know if half of them are just psychological.  The ear stuff is definitely physical.  My old symptoms of extreme morning dread, hand trembling and SI ideation are gone, but that was when I was on a much higher dose.

 

I had been tapering with a cut and hold, but always found myself climbing right back up to where I started.  I finally broke down and decided to start a micro taper with my gemini scale.  I started at 60.25 mgs and am down to 57.5 in a little over a week.  At one point I was up in the 90s, so am making progress.  I am dosing 3 times during the day and then a big dose before bed. I have started cutting 1.25 mgs every 2 days from alternating day doses. I created a spreadsheet and weighed and cut a weeks worth today.  I am still working at my job, brain & memory are good.  Exercise every day on my treadmill.  The thing that really screws me up is the fact that I have an unlimited supply and give myself permission to take as much as I want whenever I feel the need.  I have no self control. Last night, for example, I took my nightly 30mgs and then stayed up for over an hour.  By the time I went to bed, the ambien lost its effectiveness, so I tossed and turned for an hour until I got up and took another 30 mgs.  I am my own worst enemy. I wonder if I will be able to cut out the day doses completely first and then tackle the night, or is my brain  so used to 24 hours of zolpidem that I will never stabilize until all doses are equal. Time will tell.  I envy you and do deep down believe that a c/t would be the best, easiest, quickest solution, esp since I have the klonopin on board.   I'll see how this micro taper plays out and I will not take any ambien at bedtime until I am actually in bed!  I have made so many mistakes on this journey.  Someday I'll get it right.  I do think though all my trial and error, I might finally be on the right path.

Edited August 2 by [sh...]

[[vo...]]

4 hours ago, [[s...] said:

 

Hi @[sh...] Please seriously consider tapering off that high dose of Ambien soon. We've talked about what I went through, and my withdrawal symptoms didn't worsen when I quit Ambien. I'm hopeful the same will be true for you. Remember, your liver has to process all that Ambien you're taking and you're on a pretty high dose. I hope you'll keep this in mind as you make the decision to start tapering off. ..... please.

[[sh...]]

Hi @[vo...].  I am tapering.  I am feeling better every day.  Not sure how I will feel on the low, low doses.  Funny enough,2 years ago I had liver surgery because of a cyst in one of my biliary ducts, and my liver is fine.  They took out the entire right lobe (it grew back), and my liver enzymes are frequently monitored.  I'm more worried about the effect on my brain than on my liver.  But point taken.  Tapering is in progress. Just pray I can stay the course.

[[vo...]]

3 hours ago, [[s...] said:

Hi @[vo...].  I am tapering.  I am feeling better every day.  Not sure how I will feel on the low, low doses.  Funny enough,2 years ago I had liver surgery because of a cyst in one of my biliary ducts, and my liver is fine.  They took out the entire right lobe (it grew back), and my liver enzymes are frequently monitored.  I'm more worried about the effect on my brain than on my liver.  But point taken.  Tapering is in progress. Just pray I can stay the course.

 Thanks for telling me @[sh...]. Sometimes I forget who is where with what they are taking, or tapering or in withdrawal, so I overlooked your taper. If you're tapering with recommended advice, I would think you'll be ok, even at the lower doses. I always felt "it just can't get any worse" and it hasn't. Just some days are better than others. That's what I hope for you. Happy to hear your liver is monitored to be sure it's ok. I had a CT Scan done on mine and it was ok too. I agree about the brain. I'm going to be seeing my neurologist at the end of August. I'll be asking him to do a CT scan of my brain to be sure everything is ok. What's your taper plan from this point forward - I'm not easily seeing it.

[[sh...]]

@[vo...] Tapering 5 mgs. per week off ambien (that's my fantasy) and when I get down to the normal dose of 10 mgs at night, I will stay on that while I begin a Klonopin taper.  Currently on 2.5mgs of Klonopin.  I have micro tapered Klonopin before and got down to half of my daily dose painlessly (from 6 mgs to 3 mgs).  I started feeling w/d symptoms and decided to hold the taper.  Little did I know that the w/d symptoms were probably from the high dose ambien interdose and not the klonopin at all.  I have a plan. Just need to stay strong and stay the course.  

[[vo...]]

21 minutes ago, [[s...] said:

@[vo...] Tapering 5 mgs. per week off ambien (that's my fantasy) and when I get down to the normal dose of 10 mgs at night, I will stay on that while I begin a Klonopin taper.  Currently on 2.5mgs of Klonopin.  I have micro tapered Klonopin before and got down to half of my daily dose painlessly (from 6 mgs to 3 mgs).  I started feeling w/d symptoms and decided to hold the taper.  Little did I know that the w/d symptoms were probably from the high dose ambien interdose and not the klonopin at all.  I have a plan. Just need to stay strong and stay the course.  

@[sh...]Sounds like you have a very good plan in place! 

[[jo...]]

I thought ambien affected gabba receptors? Does it not cause setbacks etc like alcohol?

[[vo...]]

38 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

I thought ambien affected gabba receptors? Does it not cause setbacks etc like alcohol?

@[jo...] It does affect the gaba receptors - it acts similarly to benzos. My doctor told me I had to come off of it because of this. It was a wonderful Z-drug that a number of us discovered that using it to day dose did a wonderful job of eliminating/reducing the benzo w/d symptoms! 

The setback caused by using it is that we are only delaying the withdrawal symptoms.

 

 

 

[[Pa...]]

Hey @[sh...], wow, you sound determined!  

I used to believe that keeping the z-drug on board while members tapered from their benzo was a good idea but I've come to believe differently, so my recommendation would be to taper all the way off of the Ambien, then tackle the Clonazepam.  That darn half life of Ambien is trouble and I think that 10 mgs isn't going to do a thing for your sleep but believe it will keep your interdose going strong.

I'm concerned about that unlimited supply of yours, to tell you the truth, the only reason I quit the Ambien cold turkey was because I ran out and had no hope of getting more, unless I wanted to go to jail and that wasn't an option, so I was forced into that cold turkey and it worked for me.  I understand not everyone can do this, I was one of the lucky ones.  But the minute I stopped taking it, the inner trembling disappeared, the SI was gone, the anxiety evaporated and I felt hope for the first time in 14 months.  I couldn't sleep for a week or so but I didn't care because I felt so much relief from the other symptoms being gone.

So back to your unlimited supply, do you have someone you can trust to hold your pills for you when you get weak, someone who won't give them to you because they love and care for you and want to see you succeed? 

[[sh...]]

@[Pa...] I wish I did have someone to give my pills to to hold and keep me on track, but I live alone.  Also, my job involves travel, so I have to take a lot of extra pills with me in case I am stuck somewhere for days.  Flying these days is so unpredictable.  This slow taper is keeping me in a constant state of w/d, but it is so far manageable.  Right now, I am tapering down my daily dose and keeping my bedtime dose the same.  (23.5 mg total divided 3 times during day, 32.5 at bedtime).  Trying to decide if I should start tackling the high night time dose and get that down before proceeding with the day cuts.  Hoping the w/d will get less severe as I come down in total dosage.  Wonder why the Kpin doesn't eliminate w/d considering they are supposed to work on same gaba receptors as Ambien.  Also, how I was able to go for years taking 30mgs at night to sleep and never felt interdose w/d until I started day dosing.  It's such a mystery.

[[Pa...]]

You're doing a great job tapering the Ambien, I'd sure try to get rid of those daytime doses, don't you have blank spots in your memory from taking a hypnotic during the day?  

I sure wonder what's going to happen with the Klonopin that's a hefty dose, have you ever considered crossing your Ambien over? 

[[vo...]]

@[sh...]

Shotsy, you can do this. I live alone too, and what helped me was taking ownership of this, both for myself and to this group. I made a commitment to be honest if I relapsed, but I haven’t. I’ve kept my Ambien in my purse as a "just in case," since I quit on 7/24/24, I haven’t touched it. Today, I’m getting rid of that safety net. Down the toilet they go. My withdrawal symptoms haven't gotten any worse and I didn’t think I could handle it, but I’m proving to myself that I can. There’s no turning back for me now.

I know you can do this for yourself too. As said, leave @[Pa...] the K alone for now and focus on tapering down the Ambien, especially those daytime doses, until you're done with them. Just push through the withdrawal symptoms—you’ve got the strength. Then, tackle the nighttime doses. If I remember right, they aren’t really helping you sleep anyway, so they should be easier to taper off. Make a plan and when you're ready, let me know how you're going to do this 

[[sh...]]

@[Pa...] Not sure what crossing Ambien over means.  Can you please explain.

 

[[sh...]]

@[vo...] The nighttime Ambien dose absolutely helps me sleep.

 

[[Pa...]]

Just now, [[s...] said:

@[Pa...] Not sure what crossing Ambien over means.  Can you please explain.

Substitute the Klonopin for the Ambien, kind of like how Professor Ashton crossed her patients to Valium. 

[[sh...]]

@[vo...] The nighttime Ambien dose absolutely helps me sleep.