Micro taper hold ratio (second try)

[Guest [Do...]]

 

Hi Buds,

I am starting this topic for the second time as i didnt get a single answer the first time.

I found this video of a YouTube benzo coach who says that in micro taper if you taper 5 days and hold for 2 or taper 3 days and hold for 1 is a good strategy.

Would that be enough to avoid longer holds after every few weeks of tapering? Would it be enough for the brain to catch up and avoid waves?

I am struggling to find a good ratio and cant seem to advance in my taper enough. Been trying a few different strategies like the 0.02mg daily or the 0.01-0.02mg but is getting too caotic, sometimes i can taper for 10 days and then hold for 5, sometimes i taper 5 days and have to hold for 4, this is getting ridoculous and very frustrating and i'd love your opinons on this.

Has anyone try this?

Thanks

 

Edited May 23 by Guest

[[El...]]

@[Do...] I am micro tapering Lorazepam. After a bit of trial and error, I did slow way down and began to taper for 5 days and then hold for 2. However, currently I am able to cut 0.30% (from the previous dose) for 10-12 days consecutively, then hold for 2-3 days. Often after 10-12 days, I don't even feel like I need to hold. But I hold anyway, just to let my CNS “ catch up” with my reductions. I have been very functional and stable with this method. If I make larger cuts (even just 1.0%) I usually will need to hold 1-2 weeks due to flaring of my symptoms. This strategy will, no doubt, change again. It has been a hard lesson learned for me. I always wanted to increase the percentage of my reductions so I would, I thought, decrease the length of my taper. But, instead, I need to be willing to modify my taper as I closely monitor my symptoms. Of course it often seems frustratingly slow. Now, my previous night’s and my morning’s symptoms always dictate whether or not I will make a small reduction that day (if it is a day I plan to reduce) or begin my hold earlier (as I have had to today!)

[Guest [Do...]]

11 hours ago, [[E...] said:

@[Do...] I am micro tapering Lorazepam. After a bit of trial and error, I did slow way down and began to taper for 5 days and then hold for 2. However, currently I am able to cut 0.30% (from the previous dose) for 10-12 days consecutively, then hold for 2-3 days. Often after 10-12 days, I don't even feel like I need to hold. But I hold anyway, just to let my CNS “ catch up” with my reductions. I have been very functional and stable with this method. If I make larger cuts (even just 1.0%) I usually will need to hold 1-2 weeks due to flaring of my symptoms. This strategy will, no doubt, change again. It has been a hard lesson learned for me. I always wanted to increase the percentage of my reductions so I would, I thought, decrease the length of my taper. But, instead, I need to be willing to modify my taper as I closely monitor my symptoms. Of course it often seems frustratingly slow. Now, my previous night’s and my morning’s symptoms always dictate whether or not I will make a small reduction that day (if it is a day I plan to reduce) or begin my hold earlier (as I have had to today!)

Hi @[El...] and thanks for your reply,

It might be cause english is not my first language but it was hard for me to follow your explanation.

If i understood that right, you have done the 5/2 taper successfully and you have been able to extend that to even 10-12 days. You have try sometimes to make larger cuts cause you wanted to go faster (we want go get out of this hell soon) and the you hit the wall (been there done that) and have to make larger holds.

The rest is a little confusing for me, i think i can guess you have resturned to the previous taper where you are safer and monitor your symptoms but i dont really understand the last part. Are you changing your planning everyday depending on how you feel every morning or felt last night?

Are you still doing 5/2 taper or 10-12/2-3 ?

I  would apreciate if you tell me more of this.

Thanks

[[or...]]

11 hours ago, [[E...] said:

@[Do...] I am micro tapering Lorazepam. After a bit of trial and error, I did slow way down and began to taper for 5 days and then hold for 2. However, currently I am able to cut 0.30% (from the previous dose) for 10-12 days consecutively, then hold for 2-3 days. Often after 10-12 days, I don't even feel like I need to hold. But I hold anyway, just to let my CNS “ catch up” with my reductions. I have been very functional and stable with this method. If I make larger cuts (even just 1.0%) I usually will need to hold 1-2 weeks due to flaring of my symptoms. This strategy will, no doubt, change again. It has been a hard lesson learned for me. I always wanted to increase the percentage of my reductions so I would, I thought, decrease the length of my taper. But, instead, I need to be willing to modify my taper as I closely monitor my symptoms. Of course it often seems frustratingly slow. Now, my previous night’s and my morning’s symptoms always dictate whether or not I will make a small reduction that day (if it is a day I plan to reduce) or begin my hold earlier (as I have had to today!)

I am horrible with numbers but just wanted to ask if 0.30% means 30%?  I do a slow taper of 3% right now, and hold 10 days.  Maybe I don't need to, but I am very shy about tapering too much as I had very bad sxs at the last big taper of 11%.  I go by weight of dose on my Taper History if anyone looks at it, which is now just under half of original dose of 1 mg C tablet, at 48% left to go, oregonlady

[Guest [Do...]]

3 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

just wanted to ask if 0.30% means 30%?

Hi @[or...] 0.30% is not 30%, 0.30 is less than 1, just like 0.99 is less than 1.

I hope that helped and thanks for your reply.

[[Li...]]

18 hours ago, [[D...] said:

I found this video of a YouTube benzo coach who says that in micro taper if you taper 5 days and hold for 2 or taper 3 days and hold for 1 is a good strategy.

@[Do...] I question whether this strategy makes sense from either a pharmacological or physiological perspective.  Different benzodiazepines have different half-lives so holding for 1-3 days may not be long enough to get a clear read on the impact of previous reductions.  Also, different individuals have different response patterns to reductions (i.e. how long it takes for withdrawal symptoms to emerge, peak, and stabilize). 

[Guest [Do...]]

4 minutes ago, [[L...] said:

@[Do...] I question whether this strategy makes sense from either a pharmacological or physiological perspective.  Different benzodiazepines have different half-lives so holding for 1-3 days may not be long enough to get a clear read on the impact of previous reductions.  Also, different individuals have different response patterns to reductions (i.e. how long it takes for withdrawal symptoms to emerge, peak, and stabilize). 

Hi @[Li...] and thanks for the reply,

I know what you mean but i am just trying to get ideas and opinions to find ways to improve my taper.

I know is different for everyone but i have found good ideas and suggestions in BB before that helped me and worked and i am just trying to figure out if something is worth trying or not,

[[Li...]]

You’re welcome @[Do...].  The concept upon which the strategy is based is fine, it’s just the implementation I am questioning.  There are no ‘one size fits all’ solutions on how to taper. Each of us has to discover through a process of experimentation what works for us; we also need to be prepared to adjust our strategy over time.  @[El...] has clearly mastered this lesson and I’m certain you will as well!

[[or...]]

15 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

Hi @[or...] 0.30% is not 30%, 0.30 is less than 1, just like 0.99 is less than 1.

I hope that helped and thanks for your reply.

Yes, the 0's mess me up I don't understand math basically, don't know how I did so well with it in school, mystery to me!  But 0.30 is different than say, my .5 mg tablet.  That just doesn't make sense to me, but why would that surprise me after using C for half my life oregonlady

[Guest [Do...]]

1 minute ago, [[o...] said:

But 0.30 is different than say, my .5 mg tablet

0.30 would be close to half you 0.50 tablet but we are talking about 0.30% here not just 0.30, just like is not the same 1mg or the 1% of it.

[[or...]]

Just now, [[D...] said:

0.30 would be close to half you 0.50 tablet but we are talking about 0.30% here not just 0.30, just like is not the same 1mg or the 1% of it.

I think I'm starting to understand it now.  When I saw the 0.30% I thought a percent had to be a whole number so I tried to convert it by googling "what is 0.30 in a percent and it came out 30%. 

Sorry, I don't want to derail the thread by talking about a math problem of my own OL

[Guest [Do...]]

2 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

I think I'm starting to understand it now.  When I saw the 0.30% I thought a percent had to be a whole number so I tried to convert it by googling "what is 0.30 in a percent and it came out 30%. 

Sorry, I don't want to derail the thread by talking about a math problem of my own OL

No problem, we are here to help, no matter the topic is always good to help.

 

[[re...]]

Hey Dolvian I know you have been reluctant or even annoyed about the possibility of long holds, and you are trying to do everything in your power to steer clear of them, but i am telling you and have to be in agreeance with Libertas on this, is that even in a micro taper..........long holds are necessary for most people. I have seen so many keep trying to avoid this sad reality and with sub par results. Valium is a bastard and it will creep up on you. Micro taper or not. You need those longer holds (2-4 weeks imo) at different phases of your taper just to see how long before you feel the buildup of those cuts before you can make any assessments before going further. 

And never forget is is almost IMPOSSIBLE to be completely symptom free during a taper. Or even low symptoms. But the taper to me is to 'minimize' major dysregulation. You are gonna get waves and you gotta be prepared for them. They don't need to be debilitating, but they most likely will occur no matter what you do. 

I personally think the You tube link you put out and that method is great at the LOWER doses (under 1.5 mg) cause at that point you need to just get off and it becomes more small holds just to give you a breather at the small doses as holding too long becomes counter productive I think. 

[Guest [Do...]]

2 hours ago, [[r...] said:

Hey Dolvian I know you have been reluctant or even annoyed about the possibility of long holds, and you are trying to do everything in your power to steer clear of them, but i am telling you and have to be in agreeance with Libertas on this, is that even in a micro taper..........long holds are necessary for most people. I have seen so many keep trying to avoid this sad reality and with sub par results. Valium is a bastard and it will creep up on you. Micro taper or not. You need those longer holds (2-4 weeks imo) at different phases of your taper just to see how long before you feel the buildup of those cuts before you can make any assessments before going further. 

And never forget is is almost IMPOSSIBLE to be completely symptom free during a taper. Or even low symptoms. But the taper to me is to 'minimize' major dysregulation. You are gonna get waves and you gotta be prepared for them. They don't need to be debilitating, but they most likely will occur no matter what you do. 

I personally think the You tube link you put out and that method is great at the LOWER doses (under 1.5 mg) cause at that point you need to just get off and it becomes more small holds just to give you a breather at the small doses as holding too long becomes counter productive I think. 

Hey @[re...] thanks for joining me here,

I know everything you said is right and we talked about it before but i have only tapered a ridiculous ammount of drug like to make a long hold, i have probably only made less than 4 weeks in total tapering and is getting even more ridiculous that i have to hold almost the same days i taper. For example in may i have holded almost half days of the month and cant imagine in wich nightmare it has to be like that.

I know, and i am prepared to be slower and more carefull when i go under low doses but in fact i havent almost advanced from my starting dose and this doesnt seem to work well for me. Or you are telling me i have to make a 2-4 weeks hold after tapering for a week? My last taper round was 5 days, the one before 8 days, before that 10 days and i am making 4-5 days hold after each of those. That cant be right.

Edited May 24 by Guest

[[re...]]

What is your total dose right now? And are you at one dose per day yet? Or are you at two different ones? And which dose are you tapering if that is the case?

[[re...]]

What is the longest you have held so far for? 

Are you intensely symptomatic?

[Guest [Do...]]

14 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

What is your total dose right now? And are you at one dose per day yet? Or are you at two different ones? And which dose are you tapering if that is the case?

Total dose is 3.32mg divided in 1.85mg night dose and 1.47mg morning dose and i have been tapering from the morning one for sometime cause i was having severe side effects on the morning dose.

[[re...]]

I knew your goal last time was to get the doses closer and closer together so you would only have to dose once a day. This was a commendable goal I think. But to me you should not taper at all after all the hard work of getting to one dose per day.  I would just not do any more adjustments until you see how this single dose per day is going to work. If I remember correctly you were going to move the day dose closer by an hour per day until you had both doses together.

What I have been suggesting is one goal/plan at a time. No need to speed anything up at all.  

[[re...]]

So I see. You have gone back to trying to get off the morning dose first then? And you will taper this dose? It confuses me when there is multiple dosing of Valium because you really don't need to if we are being honest. It really is forgiving in this aspect. You usually only need a once a day or night dosing. 

[Guest [Do...]]

12 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

What is the longest you have held so far for? 

Are you intensely symptomatic?

I was doing very well last month feeling better even while tapering for almost 14 days till i had that ears drops for otitis wich included Cripo antibiotic and hit me like a freight train and had to hold for 6 days. after that i have been lowering the tapering reduction and doing less and less days of taper in between holds. I am not bedbound but i am 90% homebound and sympomatic, the most i have been for maybe 2 months.

[[re...]]

I think dosing twice per day is where you are running into trouble and I would get those together first before continuing any future tapering. 

[[re...]]

Sorry you have a lot going on and yes I now remember you mentioning the Cipro. In all honesty your symptoms could really be from this and not the Valium and even MORE of a reason to hold to me. If you were dysregulated by those insane Abx drops then be careful of tapering at all. 

[Guest [Do...]]

3 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

So I see. You have gone back to trying to get off the morning dose first then? And you will taper this dose? It confuses me when there is multiple dosing of Valium because you really don't need to if we are being honest. It really is forgiving in this aspect. You usually only need a once a day or night dosing. 

You got the info wrong. I was suggested to get both doses closer and finally unite them in a single one but i never thought that as an option, i think it is a horrible idea to make my night dose doble even if that means to get rid of the morning dose. So yes i am tapering from the morning dose trying to get to a single dose but just by finishing one and stay on the other one.

[[re...]]

 

• Author

 

 

 

I was doing very well last month feeling better even while tapering for almost 14 days till i had that ears drops for otitis wich included Cripo antibiotic and hit me like a freight train and had to hold for 6 days. after that i have been lowering the tapering reduction and doing less and less days of taper in between holds. I am not bedbound but i am 90% homebound and sympomatic, the most i have been for maybe 2 months.

 

This right here tells you all you need to know about holding and also the possibility that your cuts have caught up with you. Or of course the Cipro. It's just so hard to tell in all of this. So I wouldn't even consider doing anything else right now. It's just gonna confuse the hell out of your nervous system. 

 

 

 

[[re...]]

Oh ok I got ya on the moving doses together. You don't wanna attempt this. I understand.