is liquid micro taper linear or hyperbolic?

[Guest [Do...]]

Hi Buddies,

Simple question, i am about to start my liquid taper form 2 doses a day with manufacturer's diazepam and following the video bellow.

Should i go 0.01ml less every day (wich is supposed to take 10% of my current dose after 14 days) all the way to zero or i am suppossed to recalculate the new 10% of the remaiming after every 14 days period?

If i go linear the percentage will not increase every 14 days from the starting dose but will i crease compared between 2 weeks periods.

Thanks

 

 

Edited April 7 by Guest

[[da...]]

> Should i go 0.01ml less every day (wich is supposed to take 10% of my current dose after 30 days) all the way to zero or i am suppossed to recalculate the new 5% of the remaiming after every 30 days period?

Can you please elaborate.

 

[Guest [Do...]]

22 minutes ago, [[d...] said:

> Should i go 0.01ml less every day (wich is supposed to take 10% of my current dose after 30 days) all the way to zero or i am suppossed to recalculate the new 5% of the remaiming after every 30 days period?

Can you please elaborate.

Is very simple question. In my case i am tapering 1% of my dose every 2 days so after 2 weeks i have tapered 7%, 14% after 4 weeks and 21% after 6 weeks etc etc. That is a linear tapering (micro tapering) cause you take the same (0.14mg or 7%) of the original dose (2mg) every 14 days. So the question is is that if is the right way to do it despite the hyperbolic theory that says we should recalculate that 7% from the remaining dose (for example my new dose after 28 days is 1.72mg) not from the original 2mg dose or that is only for cut and hold.

Thanks

Edited April 5 by Guest

[[je...]]

38 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

Is very simple question. In my case i am tapering 1% of my dose every 2 days so after 2 weeks i have tapered 7%, 14% after 4 weeks and 21% after 6 weeks etc etc. That is a linear tapering (micro tapering) cause you take the same (0.14mg or 7%) of the original dose (2mg) every 14 days. So the question is is that if is the right way to do it despite the hyperbolic theory that says we should recalculate that 7% from the remaining dose (for example my new dose after 28 days is 1.72mg) not from the original 2mg dose or that is only for cut and hold.

Thanks

You are confusing hyperbolic and exponential tapering. Hyperbolic tapering is related to the dose-receptor occupancy of the specific benzo you are tapering. 
Exponential tapering means you recalculate your cut on each new dose. It should be done for all tapering methods regardless of which method you use. Your tapering method should not be dictating your percentages and how big your cuts are. With linear tapering your percentages will keep increasing with each cut as you reduce but with exponential tapering the percentage remains the same. We recommend tapering at no more than 5-10% every two weeks. 

You might also want to read up about accumulation of cuts. 

[Guest [Do...]]

11 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

You are confusing hyperbolic and exponential tapering. Hyperbolic tapering is related to the dose-receptor occupancy of the specific benzo you are tapering. 
Exponential tapering means you recalculate your cut on each new dose. It should be done for all tapering methods regardless of which method you use. Your tapering method should not be dictating your percentages and how big your cuts are. With linear tapering your percentages will keep increasing with each cut as you reduce but with exponential tapering the percentage remains the same. We recommend tapering at no more than 5-10% every two weeks. 

You might also want to read up about accumulation of cuts. 

Thanks for your reply.

I guess i might have been confusing things but you got the point.

I have been reading and learning from other buddies who used that method but i couldnt figure out my doubts. Some say that have tapered 0.01-2-3mg or what ever every day but never explain if they recalculate and how often.

 

[[je...]]

16 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

I guess i might have been confusing things but you got the point.

No problem, but in my answer I just needed to make sure we’re on the same page and clarify it for others who are reading the thread. 

Many people follow these videos and reductions for the ease of it but I personally have lots of concerns about it because if you’re not understanding the principle of linear reductions and how much you’re reducing you will end up in a world of pain. 

16 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

Some say that have tapered 0.01-2-3mg or what ever every day but never explain if they recalculate and how often.

My guess is most of them don’t recalculate. If they are cautious they might build in holding days. You are definitely asking the right questions. I also did liquid daily micro tapering and I recalculated my cuts every two weeks. 
 

 

[Guest [Do...]]

59 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

No problem, but in my answer I just needed to make sure we’re on the same page and clarify it for others who are reading the thread. 

Many people follow these videos and reductions for the ease of it but I personally have lots of concerns about it because if you’re not understanding the principle of linear reductions and how much you’re reducing you will end up in a world of pain. 

My guess is most of them don’t recalculate. If they are cautious they might build in holding days. You are definitely asking the right questions. I also did liquid daily micro tapering and I recalculated my cuts every two weeks. 
 

Yes, that was crystal clear, thanks so much.

I am already working on adding holding days and recalculating taper percentages every 2 weeks. Just by adding some holding days in between the weeks the opercentages fit perfectly.

 

Edited April 5 by Guest

[[je...]]

I just read through some of your other posts and I'm not sure if you're still at 3mg Diazepam? At some stage during your taper you'll have to switch to linear tapering otherwise theoretically you'll never get off - think about your last cut when you jump - it will be a 100% cut. The tough question though is to decide when to switch to linear tapering. I was on Clonazepam and I switched to linear tapering at the Valium equivalent of 2.5mg and I jumped at the Valium equivalent of 0.5mg. You can read about it here. 

[Guest [Do...]]

17 hours ago, [[j...] said:

I just read through some of your other posts and I'm not sure if you're still at 3mg Diazepam? At some stage during your taper you'll have to switch to linear tapering otherwise theoretically you'll never get off - think about your last cut when you jump - it will be a 100% cut. The tough question though is to decide when to switch to linear tapering. I was on Clonazepam and I switched to linear tapering at the Valium equivalent of 2.5mg and I jumped at the Valium equivalent of 0.5mg. You can read about it here. 

Hi again,

Your last reply has really got me confused. As i understand it, you are telling me now exactly the opposite you said before.

My current dose is 4mg of diazepam a day, 2mg every 12 hours but this is my 4th day with micro tapering. I am reducing 0.02mg of one of the doses every day so today, the 4th day i am currently taking 0.04mg less on each dose. Tomorrow i will be taking 1.96mg in one of the doses and 1.94mg im the other one, the day after 1.94mg in both doses and so on.

So. Should i stay linear or recalcutale every 2 weeks?

Thanks.

[[Fa...]]

3 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

So. Should i stay linear or recalcutale every 2 weeks?

The only universally correct tapering advice I have come across is to make small enough reductions in dose, on a gradual enough schedule, to keep withdrawal symptoms tolerable.

As frustrating as this ‘advice’ sounds, it is only compounded by the uniqueness of each individual situation.

With that said, daily reductions of .02mg/mL per day for the first two weeks equates to a .28mg/mL reduction in dose. 

.28mg divided by 4mg equates to a 7% reduction in your dose over the first 2 weeks.  You may consider holding for 1-2 weeks after this first 2 week reduction period and see how you are doing before proceeding further.  This will allow you to determine what you can handle in regards to reductions over a 2 week stretch. 

Unfortunately, there is no right answer.  This is one grand experiment and you are the chief investigator.  I would suggest you keep a daily log of your symptoms, and their severity, and adjust your taper rate accordingly as you head towards 0mg diazepam.

When in doubt, or symptoms seem to be intensifying, I would recommend holding your dose steady.  I wish you the best and please do keep us posted.

[Guest [Do...]]

21 minutes ago, [[F...] said:

The only universally correct tapering advice I have come across is to make small enough reductions in dose, on a gradual enough schedule, to keep withdrawal symptoms tolerable.

As frustrating as this ‘advice’ sounds, it is only compounded by the uniqueness of each individual situation.

With that said, daily reductions of .02mg/mL per day for the first two weeks equates to a .28mg/mL reduction in dose. 

.28mg divided by 4mg equates to a 7% reduction in your dose over the first 2 weeks.  You may consider holding for 1-2 weeks after this first 2 week reduction period and see how you are doing before proceeding further.  This will allow you to determine what you can handle in regards to reductions over a 2 week stretch. 

Unfortunately, there is no right answer.  This is one grand experiment and you are the chief investigator.  I would suggest you keep a daily log of your symptoms, and their severity, and adjust your taper rate accordingly as you head towards 0mg diazepam.

When in doubt, or symptoms seem to be intensifying, I would recommend holding your dose steady.  I wish you the best and please do keep us posted.

Hi and thanks for your reply,

"Frustrating advice"? i think is probable the best advice i could get. Is clear and reasonable and wich i extremely agree.

I guess my rate of tapering is not too fast or too slow and at my 4th day i have been enjoying a beautifull window ever since i started (maybe cause i switched to liquid form a good brand and my tablets were a generic medicine probably made with the cheapest and worst components) so i guess i have to see how i feel after those 2 first weeks and make a decision every step of the way.

 

[[Fa...]]

3 hours ago, [[D...] said:

so i guess i have to see how i feel after those 2 first weeks and make a decision every step of the way.

I think this is a very good idea.  The reason I suggested holding for a 1-2 week period, after the 2 weeks of active reductions, is due to the extremely long half-life of diazepam.

Some people may not realize the effects of these reductions until some 10-14 days later, and the accumulation of these .02mg/mL reductions can have the potential to ‘build’.  If functionality, and ‘windows’, are important to you - I believe factoring in 1-2 week periods of holding, in between active periods of reductions, as vital. 

[Guest [Do...]]

31 minutes ago, [[F...] said:

I think this is a very good idea.  The reason I suggested holding for a 1-2 week period, after the 2 weeks of active reductions, is due to the extremely long half-life of diazepam.

Some people may not realize the effects of these reductions until some 10-14 days later, and the accumulation of these .02mg/mL reductions can have the potential to ‘build’.  If functionality, and ‘windows’, are important to you - I believe factoring in 1-2 week periods of holding, in between active periods of reductions, as vital. 

We think more or less the same but i dont think is a good idea to taper (micro taper) for 2 weeks and hold on for another 2 weeks, unless you get bad symptoms, is better to carry on or it will take for ever to come off. Maybe when i get to a certain point half way or so i would have to hold for symptoms to stabilize but if they dont get too bad i dont see the point on using cut and hold with the micro taper.

I thought of accumulation problem too but i have learnt the hard way that the worst with diazepam comes at the 4th day when using cut and hold and it may or may not ocurr after 14 days of accumulation but that lead us to the start of this conversation and the quote you used of my last post: "so i guess i have to see how i feel after those 2 first weeks and make a decision every step of the way."

 

Edited April 6 by Guest

[[je...]]

6 hours ago, [[D...] said:

Your last reply has really got me confused. As i understand it, you are telling me now exactly the opposite you said before.

I am really sorry this is so confusing. And you're right, what I was saying is at some stage during your taper when you get very low it is likely that you might have to resort to linear tapering. I wasn't saying you should start linear tapering. When I replied to your question the first time I was replying in general - how we approach a taper in the general sense - not to your specific dose where you are at. But when you get lower it gets a bit muddy. The only way to grasp this concept is to play around with the maths. I'll try and explain it a little bit. 

If the numbers are very low and you keep calculating the percentages it will require you to make reductions that are impossible in our circumstances. For arguments sake the maths might require you to make a 0.00007mg cut. We can't go this low. This means that by default you are reverting back to linear reductions because the smallest cut you can make is 0.001mg. From a certain point onwards you can only make 0.001mg cuts. It all depends on the percentages, the drug you are tapering and how low you are going. 

Let's say you're at 0.025mg and you want to cut 2%. 

0.025 -2% =0.0245 (this is a 0.001mg reduction)

Now you want to cut another 2%

0.0245 -2% =0.0240 (this is a 0.0005mg reduction)

Now you want to cut another 2%

0.024 -2% = 0.0235 (this is a 0.0005mg reduction)

As you can see, if this is how you want to taper, you are now reverting back to 0.001mg cuts because practically this is as low as you can go. The question then becomes when you are limited to linear cuts, how do you manage them? And generally we manage it by building in holding periods.

Unfortunately there is no hard or fast rule when it comes to tapering and that is what @[Fa...] explained. We are all our own unique experiment. We have general guidelines that we have seen work for the majority but we can't guarantee it will work for everyone. The best is to educate yourself as best as possible on trying to understand tapering, avoiding the common pitfalls, being flexible in your taper, and then knowing and listening to your body and symptoms so that you are in a position to adjust your taper when you notice there's a change in your symptoms. And even when you do everything "right" there is still no guarantee that it will go smooth. These drugs and our brains are so unpredictable, we can only try and set ourselves up for success but should not feel like we failed somewhere if something goes wrong because ultimately we really don't have full control over this process.

[[Fa...]]

15 hours ago, [[D...] said:

We think more or less the same but i dont think is a good idea to taper (micro taper) for 2 weeks and hold on for another 2 weeks, unless you get bad symptoms, is better to carry on or it will take for ever to come off.

I guess this is why they have menus in restaurants.  My point is that you will not truly know how you handle the .28mg/mL, or 7%, reduction in dose over a 2 week period unless you hold for 'x' amount of days after your reduction period to begin your 'experiment'.

You noted that you personally realize cuts 4 days later with diazepam.  My suggestion then would be to at least hold 4 days after this reduction period to gather proper data on how you handled the .28mg/mL, or 7%, reduction in dose over 2 weeks.

Also, my suggestion is not that you taper for 2 weeks, then hold for 2 weeks and repeat.  Once you know what you can handle (personal taper speed limit), your holding period is only an occasional 'safety net'.  

For example, my functionality is far more important to me than the extra time I may spend on diazepam.  As a result, I actively taper roughly 30 days (via .02mg/mL and .01mg/mL daily reductions), then I hold for 1-2 weeks.

Based on the information, and personal experiences, I have read (and deem 'quality' and relevant to me) - my current goal is to never actively taper over 10% of my current dose in one month, but also to never actively taper less than .2mg per month - or to your point, the process becomes overly drawn out and fruitless.

[[or...]]

Tapering then holding is essential for me, and I found out the hard way when I first tried a 1% taper each day very early on at my time here on BB.  What happened for me was it sort-of caught up on me, and I felt pretty bad as I recall.  So now I taper, hold for however long it takes to know for sure I am stable.  Stability to me means I feel good, still have sxs, but nothing I can't continue with my routine in daily life.

It also has to do with the half-life of my Clonazepam, so I can go 2 days before the wd sxs start hitting me. Slow and steady is winning this race for me, oregonlady PS I agree with @[Fa...] but is all about having to experiment to see how your body reacts

9 minutes ago, [[F...] said:

You noted that you personally realize cuts 4 days later with diazepam.  My suggestion then would be to at least hold 4 days after this reduction period to gather proper data on how you handled the .28mg/mL, or 7%, reduction in dose over 2 weeks.

 

[Guest [Do...]]

15 hours ago, [[j...] said:

I am really sorry this is so confusing. And you're right, what I was saying is at some stage during your taper when you get very low it is likely that you might have to resort to linear tapering. I wasn't saying you should start linear tapering. When I replied to your question the first time I was replying in general - how we approach a taper in the general sense - not to your specific dose where you are at. But when you get lower it gets a bit muddy. The only way to grasp this concept is to play around with the maths. I'll try and explain it a little bit. 

If the numbers are very low and you keep calculating the percentages it will require you to make reductions that are impossible in our circumstances. For arguments sake the maths might require you to make a 0.00007mg cut. We can't go this low. This means that by default you are reverting back to linear reductions because the smallest cut you can make is 0.001mg. From a certain point onwards you can only make 0.001mg cuts. It all depends on the percentages, the drug you are tapering and how low you are going. 

Let's say you're at 0.025mg and you want to cut 2%. 

0.025 -2% =0.0245 (this is a 0.001mg reduction)

Now you want to cut another 2%

0.0245 -2% =0.0240 (this is a 0.0005mg reduction)

Now you want to cut another 2%

0.024 -2% = 0.0235 (this is a 0.0005mg reduction)

As you can see, if this is how you want to taper, you are now reverting back to 0.001mg cuts because practically this is as low as you can go. The question then becomes when you are limited to linear cuts, how do you manage them? And generally we manage it by building in holding periods.

Unfortunately there is no hard or fast rule when it comes to tapering and that is what @[Fa...] explained. We are all our own unique experiment. We have general guidelines that we have seen work for the majority but we can't guarantee it will work for everyone. The best is to educate yourself as best as possible on trying to understand tapering, avoiding the common pitfalls, being flexible in your taper, and then knowing and listening to your body and symptoms so that you are in a position to adjust your taper when you notice there's a change in your symptoms. And even when you do everything "right" there is still no guarantee that it will go smooth. These drugs and our brains are so unpredictable, we can only try and set ourselves up for success but should not feel like we failed somewhere if something goes wrong because ultimately we really don't have full control over this process.

Thanks for the kind answer,

I recalculated my first 8 weeks to stay below 10% from the remaining dose every 2 weeks and i will be acting depending on the symptoms at every step and i will go linear from a certain point holding if needed but i dont think i will be cutting much when i get to 0.025mg. I think i must have jumped before that.

 

[Guest [Do...]]

33 minutes ago, [[F...] said:

As a result, I actively taper roughly 30 days (via .02mg/mL and .01mg/mL daily reductions), then I hold for 1-2 weeks.

Hi again,

Can you explain this please?

Do you take 2 doses a day?

Do you taper both doses everyday?

Thanks

[[re...]]

I have done a liquid micro taper starting last May from 4 mg Diaz so I have a bit of experience with this. I was doing .02 cuts at first and just kept going and got hit somewhat hard at 18 days of this. I think unfortunately holds are necessary even with micro tapers. But definitely not the super long holds people do from larger one off cuts.   I did my longest hold for 3 whole weeks one time once I got down to 2.5 mg and it seemed to help. 

I don't know how long you have been on Diazepam for, but Faith hope love is RIGHT on in her recommendations to hold no matter what. I am telling you this because I have seen  over confidence with windows in the early parts of the taper from many myself included. You can judge wrong and you get hit hard because of it . In your initial post you have said you just started cutting  which you just can't tell how you are going to react even to these micro cuts regardless of percentages and how small or large they are. At this point try not to get too caught up in the math and just gauge how you feel after successive cuts. 2 weeks to hold is not a hard number, but just a wellness check so to speak as to how you are feeling. I mean I have gotten excited in the early days of my taper and felt better just like you only to be hit even a month later with symptoms. I don't know how long you have been on Diazepam, but it can really sneak up on you even though you think you are doing good. 

I understand your need to get into the hard percentages and numbers and you should. I am the same way, BUT you still should be weary of these crucial early days in your micro taper.

I have seen mostly the opposite in the early days of a taper of what is recommended. Cutting hard and fast early in this journey hits you later, but if you are careful early on, it may get way easier at the lower numbers cause you have done your brain a great service by being gentle with it in the beginning. 

[[Fa...]]

8 hours ago, [[D...] said:

Hi again,

Can you explain this please?

Do you take 2 doses a day?

Do you taper both doses everyday?

Thanks

I am currently actively reducing .1mg/mL every 6 days (via .02mg/mL and .01mg/mL daily reductions), which equates to .5mg/mL every 30 days.  I then hold for 1-2 weeks.  I will most likely have to slow this pace down at some point.

I only take one single dose in the evening before bed. 

[[or...]]

4 hours ago, [[r...] said:

but if you are careful early on, it may get way easier at the lower numbers cause you have done your brain a great service by being gentle with it in the beginning.

What a good read this was for me @[re...], especially this part I quoted.  This is what I truly believe is working for me, and I only learned how to go slow thanks to finding BB   I feel by smaller tapers and holding until I am sure I am stable, has saved me so much quality of life.  I have heard about things getting rougher at smaller doses, but I believe my brain (CNS) adapts, not just stabilizes. 

When I choose to taper again it is because I feel well enough, to handle wd sxs that come along, and I am more in-tune with what they will probably be like.  So far, I like the minimum sxs and handle them ok, and am able to go on with my life, oregonlady PS mine is a dry micro-taper from 1 mg of Clonazepam

[[re...]]

Thank you I am glad you see that.

I tell ya oregonlady it is so important to be careful in the beginning just as much if not more than the end. The beginning of a taper is where the brain adapts the most and gets it's memory from these early cuts i think and if someone cuts to hard at the start and it catches up then the brain crashes I think it makes a memory/code and this is not good. I have gotten down to around 1 mg Valium (For you that would be .05 Clonazepam) and I am having WAY more windows and better days thus far. I still gets hits with hard waves, but they seem to leave quicker and quicker especially when I focus on my nutrition. Just got the WAHLS protocol and wow what a inspirational book for the brain and it's ability to heal through diet. I know you are a huge keto advocate and I think that is probably why you have gotten as far as you have.  I still have lots of concerns in the back of my mind when I jump/walk off though. 

[[or...]]

It's so nice to meet you @revolution!  I am now following you, hope you don't mind.  I'm also near my .5 of 1 mg C.  I will look into WAHLS, it sounds like my kind of read Anyone brings up the value of nutrition and/or exercise in our journey has my attention, oregonlady PS Thank you @Dolvian for asking the questions, I learned a lot from your thread!

[Guest [Do...]]

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I have done a liquid micro taper starting last May from 4 mg Diaz so I have a bit of experience with this. I was doing .02 cuts at first and just kept going and got hit somewhat hard at 18 days of this. I think unfortunately holds are necessary even with micro tapers. But definitely not the super long holds people do from larger one off cuts.   I did my longest hold for 3 whole weeks one time once I got down to 2.5 mg and it seemed to help. 

I don't know how long you have been on Diazepam for, but Faith hope love is RIGHT on in her recommendations to hold no matter what. I am telling you this because I have seen  over confidence with windows in the early parts of the taper from many myself included. You can judge wrong and you get hit hard because of it . In your initial post you have said you just started cutting  which you just can't tell how you are going to react even to these micro cuts regardless of percentages and how small or large they are. At this point try not to get too caught up in the math and just gauge how you feel after successive cuts. 2 weeks to hold is not a hard number, but just a wellness check so to speak as to how you are feeling. I mean I have gotten excited in the early days of my taper and felt better just like you only to be hit even a month later with symptoms. I don't know how long you have been on Diazepam, but it can really sneak up on you even though you think you are doing good. 

I understand your need to get into the hard percentages and numbers and you should. I am the same way, BUT you still should be weary of these crucial early days in your micro taper.

I have seen mostly the opposite in the early days of a taper of what is recommended. Cutting hard and fast early in this journey hits you later, but if you are careful early on, it may get way easier at the lower numbers cause you have done your brain a great service by being gentle with it in the beginning. 

Hi and thanks for your reply,

I have only been on diazepam since march 1st but i was 3 months on lorazepam before that.

I am still on my 5th day of the taper from 4mg diaz but i guess i will check and hold when i finish my first 14 days and i hope everything keeps smooth like now.

[[re...]]

Oh not at all. I am glad you got something from my post. Follow away. .

I as well...... just like you (although not fully keto) have found more of a paleo diet to be a big help in all this. I am not super strict as I will eat a bit of gluten like some small bit of pretzels once in a while and I do love my lower carb skyr yogurt. But will try and only eat higher carbs if I am going to do a good hike/walk or bike run that day and need the energy as i burn it right off. When this is all done I may go full keto. I just can't afford the intense adaptation period on my body even though I am pretty good with the electrolytes and the hydration. I think you have great discipline to be able to do that. I know you have basically reversed diabetes through your diet. I find that fascinating and just goes to show you the amazing power of diet. Just like Terry Whals did with her MS journey.  We gotta heal from all this stress we have gone through with these nasty pills.