Point of Return Neutricueticals

[[St...]]

Has anyone used the "Point of Return" Nutriceuticals as they taper, and how effective they are?

I got on Klonapin as a result of developing chronic insomnia from Tinnitus showing up in my life suddenly. I tried for weeks, several months, to use natural stuff but none of it worked. Even some prescription drugs. A doctor gave me Klonapin without any real guidance on the drug, although I knew it wasn't something I wanted to stay on. However it took me a couple months for my sleep to get stable. Eventually I weaned myself off of it after 6 months from when I started. But I didn't know how to taper properly, nor did I know about the post-withdrawal. So 6 months later I started on it again at 1 mg. nightly, but with the help of Point of Return. I am doing a liquid taper where I have 0.5 mg/1 ml solution. I am down to 0.66 ml, but now am finding it increasingly hard to go beyond that. I got stuck on 0.70 for several weeks. I am still using the Point of Return prodcut. It is meant to help with healing. Anyone used that product or had success with it.   

[[Re...]]

Hello @[St...], Welcome to BenzoBuddies!

I approved your first post. I am happy you found us! 

I personally believe it is beneficiary to hold your dose for now and continue to taper later even slower, regarding your history. You are getting to a very important part of your recovery. 

(I have no experience with neutroceuticals while tapering. I am not certain if supplements facilitate a benzodiazepine taper or withdrawal. But this is not your question). 

I hope a Buddie with experience with neutroceuticals will way in soon. 

In the meantime, you may use the "Search" function at the upper right side of the screen to see if users mentioned these earlier. 

RR

[[Co...]]

Hello @[St...]. Welcome to BenzoBuddies,

I though POR had closed. I was unimpressed by their offerings, and I think most members who used their products reported very negatively about them.

You can try using the search system (in the main menu): Discover => Search

Of just click this link:

Showing results for '"Point of Return"'. - Benzodiazepine Withdrawal Support (benzobuddies.org)

[[St...]]

Thank you both for responding. I was reading the Ashton Manual about tapering. He suggests using Diazapem (Valium ?) for tapering off of Klonapin. Has anyone had success doing that method with that drug. It seems I would be trading one benzo for another. So I am tapering off of two?. Or is it that Diazapem works differently. I am working to get of Klonapin because of sleep issues caused by Tinnitus showing up at my doorstep. Not for anxiety or anything else. Any thoughts on the method suggested in the Ashton Manual? 

[[Br...]]

Hello @[St...] - Welcome to BenzoBuddies!

We typically don't suggest switching to Valium unless there's a very compelling reason.  In some instances, when members are suffering from interdose withdrawal it may make sense to make a switch to Valium.  Interdose withdrawal is more likely to occur with short acting/ short half life benzos like lorazepam and alprazolam (Xanax).  Most of our members are able to taper successfully off clonazepam.

We generally suggest tapering with cuts of no more than 5-10% every 14 days or longer depending on your symptoms.  We find the best approach is to remain flexible so if you find your symptoms are affecting your ability to function in your daily life you would adjust your taper by holding longer between cuts and/or make smaller cuts. This is the best way we know of to remain as functional as possible during and after your taper.  

Many of our members make cuts by eyeballing the size of cuts while others prefer to use a scale.  There are scales many of us have used, available for $30-$40 on Amazon.

Please continue asking questions and reach out for support.  It's what we're here for!

[[St...]]

So your recommendation for 5-10%, is that from the original starting dose, or is that form the current dose you have tapered to.

[[Li...]]

On 15/03/2024 at 18:40, [[S...] said:

I am doing a liquid taper where I have 0.5 mg/1 ml solution. I am down to 0.66 ml, but now am finding it increasingly hard to go beyond that. I got stuck on 0.70 for several weeks.

Hello @[St...].  Basing reductions on the original, starting dose will result in a linear taper.  Basing reductions on the current dose will result in an exponential taper.  See graphs below.

Given your comment above about starting to struggle at 0.66mL (0.33mg), you might want to consider a slower, more gradual exponential taper.  

You also might want to consider switching to a liquid with a lower concentration (e.g. 0.1mg/mL or less) so you can make smaller reductions.

Speaking of your liquid … Is the liquid you’re using a compound?  If so, then it’s likely a suspension (not a solution), probably made with regular tablets as the source of the active ingredient. 

Linear Reductions
The following shows a LINEAR taper reducing 10% of the starting dose every 4 weeks:

 

Exponential Reductions
The following shows an exponential taper of 10% calculated on the last dose every 4 weeks. This shows tapering from 100mg to 0mg, but the curve would be the same for any starting dose.

 

 

[[St...]]

Thank you! Great graphs! That makes sense. What I have now is a prescription made by a compounding pharmacy. I like your idea of a lower concentration. I will get with my PA that is helping me to see what we can do. 

Also a different question. Do you know of any issues with taking certain foods with Klonapin. POR had a whole booklet devoted showing what types of foods or herbs may possibly interact with a drug. They don't say it will but it has the potential. The idea being that whatever you ingest can make a drug more or less effective. 

[[An...]]

On 15/03/2024 at 20:01, [[C...] said:

Hello @[St...]. Welcome to BenzoBuddies,

I though POR had closed. I was unimpressed by their offerings, and I think most members who used their products reported very negatively about them.

You can try using the search system (in the main menu): Discover => Search

Of just click this link:

Showing results for '"Point of Return"'. - Benzodiazepine Withdrawal Support (benzobuddies.org)

POR has closed its doors. I knew someone IRL on Klonopin who purchased their supplements. They were over-priced and useless for benzowithdrawal according to this person. Supplements IMO will not help you during benzowithdrawal. Spend your money on eating healthy foods instead.

[[Co...]]

9 minutes ago, [[A...] said:

POR has closed its doors. I knew someone IRL on Klonopin who purchased their supplements. They were over-priced and useless for benzowithdrawal according to this person. Supplements IMO will not help you during benzowithdrawal. Spend your money on eating healthy foods instead.

I suggest this is the real reason for PoR's closure:

Quote

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutraceutical

Nutraceutical is a marketing term used to imply a pharmaceutical effect from a compound or food product that has not been scientifically confirmed or approved to have clinical benefits.[1][2] In the United States, nutraceuticals are unregulated, existing in the same category as dietary supplements and food additives by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), under the authority of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.[3][4]

There are no internationally defined properties of nutraceuticals,[2] and, due to the vague, undiscriminating evidence for nutraceutical products having biological effects, experts have proposed abandoning the term.[1] The word "nutraceutical" is a portmanteau, blending the words "nutrition" and "pharmaceutical".[1] 

 

Expensive, snake oil nonsense. And, presumably, not enough people were continuing to be duped by it. It is a good thing that PoR has closed.

[[An...]]

7 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

I suggest this is the real reason for PoR's closure:

Expensive, snake oil nonsense. And, presumably, not enough people were continuing to be duped by it. It is a good thing that PoR has closed.

I agree Colin. 👍

[[An...]]

PS - I have a certain disdain for ppl who try to capitalize from the suffering of others. Benzo w/d makes many ppl desperate and vulnerable. Please do not let others take advantage of you for financial gain.

[[Li...]]

11 hours ago, [[S...] said:

Thank you! Great graphs! That makes sense. What I have now is a prescription made by a compounding pharmacy. I like your idea of a lower concentration. I will get with my PA that is helping me to see what we can do. 

Also a different question. Do you know of any issues with taking certain foods with Klonapin. POR had a whole booklet devoted showing what types of foods or herbs may possibly interact with a drug. They don't say it will but it has the potential. The idea being that whatever you ingest can make a drug more or less effective. 

 

You’re welcome @[St...].

I’m glad you’re considering getting a lower concentration liquid.  Clonazepam (brand name Klonopin in the US) is a high potency benzodiazepine so it’s challenging to obtain the ‘small enough’ doses needed for a safe, gradual, response-guided taper.  Your compounding pharmacist should be able to tell you exactly what the PA needs to write for the prescription. (I’ve included a link to a widely used, stability-tested 0.1mg oral clonazepam suspension below.)

I share @[Co...] and @[An...]’s skepticism regarding POR, its claims, and its products.  If you are concerned about food/herb/supplement interactions, I suggest you use PubMed to find and read primary sources as well as consult multiple public domain interaction checkers such as the ones linked below.

Also, please be careful about taking the POR supplements.  We had a member a while back whose B6 levels reached toxic range while taking multiple concoctions from a similar outfit.  When she discontinued the concoctions, she went into acute benzodiazepine withdrawal and took months to recover.

Links

0.1mg/mL Clonazepam Oral Suspension
https://www.nationwidechildrens.org/-/media/nch/specialties/pharmacy/compounding-formulas/clonazepam-oral.ashx

Drug Interaction Checker - DrugBank
https://go.drugbank.com/drug-interaction-checker
(includes citations to relevant literature)

Drug Interactions Checker - For Drugs, Food & Alcohol
https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html
(includes interactions with food as well as a ‘Professional’ tab for in-depth information about the interaction)

Drug-Herbal Interaction Checker - HelloPharmacist
https://hellopharmacist.com/drug-herbal-interactions

 

[[Re...]]

/Sidenote: I think Jennifer Swantkowski had this experience,too, she was on a massive amount of vitamins. After cutting these, she went into acute withdrawal. /. 

[[St...]]

So in tapering is I have been on my current dosage for several weeks. Yet I struggle often with getting enough sleep. POR has a product made from Montmorency Cherry that has natural melatonin. Often this works during the night or at the beginning when I can't sleep. However lately I struggle mightly with sleep regardless. Is this more of an indication that I need to go back to a slightly higher dosage until my sleep is stable. Not sure how you can both taper and at the same time deal with the withdrawal during taper.

[[or...]]

Welcome to BB Steve,

I have occasional insomnia during my taper.  I had it worse before I began tapering less of a percentage, and holding until stable.  I've found things that will help me fall asleep too, but nothing I am willing to use keeps me asleep and I was getting maybe 2 hours of sleep was all.

I would probably try to hold my dose until I feel good, able to function through my daily routine.  Either that, or simply reduce the percent of my taper, slow and steady has worked best for me, oregonlady PS I have Tinnitus as well, and some nights it would have, for sure, kept me awake.  I use an app on my phone at night called Chrome Doze.  What it does is almost like remove the sound from my head/ears and place it as an "outside" noise. You could try that for the tinnitus.

Adapting to the sound was easy because it masked the tinnitus for me

Edited March 25 by [or...]