Oral solution denied-What about dry taper?

[[kn...]]

The last few weeks have been a bit of a nightmare as I've seen different providers, begged, pleaded and been denied oral diazepam solution so that I can safely finish my taper.  Historically, I started at 60mg diazepam 2.5 years ago and am now at four.  My tapering history has been updated if you want to check it out.  Now, 72 yrs old, I have been taking benzos for the last 30 years.  I had to up dose from 2mg to 4 on 2/6 of this year as I was unable to stabilize after a 5 month hold.  For up dosing, I was accused of being medically non-compliant and being a 'drug seeker'.  After seeing another provider, I was accused of 'doctor shopping' and warned that I was on thin ice legally.  Sadly this all occured in the US in 2024.  Draconian and unthinkable.  So it looks like I'm going to have to learn how to do a dry taper, something I know nothing about.  Listed below are some questions that only you who have been there will know the answers too.  I'm worn out and pretty depressed and anxious at this point, so please use very plain language and easily understood directions.  Thanks in advance.  1) What kind of scale do I need to buy and where can I get it? 2)I am currently using 2mg pills, but have other older ones that are both 10 and 5mg.  They're all from the same Co. manufacturer. Can I incorporate those as well in my taper? 3) I really can't tolerate more that about a 10% drop at a time.  How do I do the math on this, and are there tables available that can be tailored to help me out?  4) I have a small marble mortar and pestle set, but what other 'tools' do I need to get the dry substance off the scale and into some type of a substance where I can take it?  5) What kind of substance do I need to transfer the powdered medication into to make it palatable?

 

[[kn...]]

Please folks.  I'm in a bad way here.  It looks like 11 people have passed by.  Surely one of you must have an answer to at least one of these questions.  I just need to get started.  You don't have to solve all my problems.  Don't make me beg!

[[Su...]]

Wish I could help you.

I don’t have experience to share with you  .

I would if I did  

 I think others will stop by help you soon.  
 

 

[[or...]]

@[kn...] I can't answer your questions but maybe asking for help from @[Li...] will be helpful. Maybe message him and direct him to this thread. So sorry your request for liquid got denied.

[[An...]]

I thought @[Li...] was female, not does it matter.

[[Ia...]]

a 2mg pill broken in 1/2 .. is roughly 1 mg on each side, with the bigger side being a little more and the smaller side a little less. 

so cut from 4 to 2+the bigger half equals a little more than 3. then from 

cut to a little less than 3 using a 2mg and then the smaller 1/2 which would equal a little less than 3.

the extra pills you have stored is a bit of a red flag. (your mind is scared to toss em), but I understand. been there not long ago.

take the 2mg when you wake and the other portion in the afternoon.

[[El...]]

@[kn...] I can try to help you out (at least until others join in).  I am dry tapering lorazepam and have been doing so throughout my taper.

1.  You will definitely need a scale.  Many have found the relatively inexpensive jewelry scales which weigh to 0.001 grams (+/- 0.004-0.003 grams) found on Amazon to work for them.  They are about $25.  I bought a more expensive scale which weighs to 0.0001 gram (+/- 0.0003 mg) on eBay for about $275.  You will probably also need a weighing pan (one comes with the jewelry scale), a pill splitter, razor blade, and a metal nail file for "shaving" your pills.

2.  Once you get your scale, place it in an area that is free of drafts and vibrations.  It needs to be maintained at a steady temperature so keep it away from heat or air conditioning sources.  It also must be level.  You should keep if covered as dust and debris will cause the weight to be inaccurate.

3.  You will first need to weigh 10 pills and take the average weight.  The average weight is the weight you will use to calculate your percent reductions. You will find that the pills weigh approximately 10× more than the 2 mg.  2 mg is the active ingredient.  The pills weigh more due to fillers, binders, coatings, etc. (You will also need to weigh your 10 mg and 5 mg pills in a similar fashion if you plan to use them as well.)

3.  To do your reductions, you will use a simple formula.  For example, if the average weight of you pill is 2.000 grams, and you wanted to do a 10% reduction you would do the following: 2.000 x 0.9 = 1.800 grams. You would cut or shave your pill to 1.800 grams and that is the weight of your new dose for one pill and also the reduction for the other pill as well (as I am assuming you are currently taking two 2 mg pills).  If you think 10% is too much and and say you wanted to only do a 5% reduction: 2.000 × 0.95 = 1.900 grams (that would be your new dose for 1 pill).  If you dose multiple times a day, you would probably need to weigh each dose separately for greater consistency of doses.  I dose 3 times per day and calculate and weigh each dose separately.

3.  I am not sure about your question about crushing and transferring your dry dose.  I take my pills "as is" with water.  I do not crush them (although I have heard that some people do) or suspend them in any other media.  Perhaps others can speak to the benefits of doing this.

Hope this helps!

[[kn...]]

@[El...]That certainly does help.  Thanks for the time and care you put into this reply.  Yes, I take 2, 2mg pills daily.  I found the scale that you're referring to, or one similar to it, on Amazon.  As you mentioned, it's around 20 dollars.  My luck at cutting and shaving pills has not been the best.  Right now I'm looking to use a small mortar and pestle set to grind the pills to powder and then carefully remove some in order to get the preferred dosage.  I've heard that this can then be combined with milk or apple sauce and taken.  I've always taken my meds once a day in the morning.  If the powder is too much of a hassle, I'll buy a nail file or a packet of emory boards and go that route.  Your calculation methods seem easier to follow than any I've come across yet.  I doubt that you've left anything out, but if anyone else comes by, I'm always open to suggestions.  Thanks again for your help.  I really needed this.  

[[Li...]]

@[El...] Thanks so much for lending a helping hand to @[kn...]!

@[or...] Regrettably, I have zippo personal experience with dry tapering so can’t be of much help.  (Good to ‘see’ you BTW.)
@[An...] You are correct.  You’ve reminded me of the old New Yorker cartoon — “On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”  

[[An...]]

@[kn...] I am so sorry for what is being done to you. No one who is already on these drugs (for many years) should be forced to stop and those who want to stop should all be allowed to taper at whatever rate they are comfortable with. What they should do is try to stop people who have never taken benzos from using these drugs as a long-term management solution for anxiety, panic, insomnia, and other off-label chronic medical conditions. <SMH>

[[An...]]

10 minutes ago, [[L...] said:

@[El...] Thanks so much for lending a helping hand to @[kn...]!

@[or...] Regrettably, I have zippo personal experience with dry tapering so can’t be of much help.  (Good to ‘see’ you BTW.)
@[An...] You are correct.  You’ve reminded me of the old New Yorker cartoon — “On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”  

LOL @[Li...]  😁

Edited March 9 by [An...]
addition

[[ns...]]

7 hours ago, [[k...] said:

The last few weeks have been a bit of a nightmare as I've seen different providers, begged, pleaded and been denied oral diazepam solution so that I can safely finish my taper.  Historically, I started at 60mg diazepam 2.5 years ago and am now at four.  My tapering history has been updated if you want to check it out.  Now, 72 yrs old, I have been taking benzos for the last 30 years.  I had to up dose from 2mg to 4 on 2/6 of this year as I was unable to stabilize after a 5 month hold.  For up dosing, I was accused of being medically non-compliant and being a 'drug seeker'.  After seeing another provider, I was accused of 'doctor shopping' and warned that I was on thin ice legally.  Sadly this all occured in the US in 2024.  Draconian and unthinkable.  So it looks like I'm going to have to learn how to do a dry taper, something I know nothing about.  Listed below are some questions that only you who have been there will know the answers too.  I'm worn out and pretty depressed and anxious at this point, so please use very plain language and easily understood directions.  Thanks in advance.  1) What kind of scale do I need to buy and where can I get it? 2)I am currently using 2mg pills, but have other older ones that are both 10 and 5mg.  They're all from the same Co. manufacturer. Can I incorporate those as well in my taper? 3) I really can't tolerate more that about a 10% drop at a time.  How do I do the math on this, and are there tables available that can be tailored to help me out?  4) I have a small marble mortar and pestle set, but what other 'tools' do I need to get the dry substance off the scale and into some type of a substance where I can take it?  5) What kind of substance do I need to transfer the powdered medication into to make it palatable?

Hi knackered, you will need a mg scale. A Gemini scale on Amazon is around $30.00

You can cut your doses with a pill cutter until you get down to a very small dose.

I'm so sorry you are experiencing such a difficult situation with you're doctors and with their accusations of doctor shopping! 

Get your scale and a pill cutter to get started.

Someone who can help with tapering will be in touch I'm sure. Be prepared to answer questions about how you want to proceed ok

I wish u all the best with your taper!

Take care 

Ns

[[ns...]]

Just now, [[n...] said:

Hi knackered, you will need a mg scale. A Gemini scale on Amazon is around $30.00

You can cut your doses with a pill cutter until you get down to a very small dose.

I'm so sorry you are experiencing such a difficult situation with you're doctors and with their accusations of doctor shopping! 

Get your scale and a pill cutter to get started.

Someone who can help with tapering will be in touch I'm sure. Be prepared to answer questions about how you want to proceed ok

I wish u all the best with your taper!

Take care 

Ns

I see ellie has assisted u, please disregard 

 

[[ns...]]

2 minutes ago, [[n...] said:

Hi knackered, you will need a mg scale. A Gemini scale on Amazon is around $30.00

You can cut your doses with a pill cutter until you get down to a very small dose.

I'm so sorry you are experiencing such a difficult situation with you're doctors and with their accusations of doctor shopping! 

Get your scale and a pill cutter to get started.

Someone who can help with tapering will be in touch I'm sure. Be prepared to answer questions about how you want to proceed ok

I wish u all the best with your taper!

Take care 

Ns

Knackered, hi again.

I wanted to add a little bit here.

A Gemini jewellers scale is a mg scale. On Amazon. 

If you take a dose twice a day for example, let say you take 2mg per dose twice a day.

With a pill splitter, cut one in half, weigh each half and write down the weight of each half, they will be different. take your nail file and shave off 5% of the half to start. Do this by shaving slightly and weigh it, ck the weight as you go several times until you've shaved off 5% of the weight of the half. If you shave too much, put it aside for the next cut.

Do this with several of them.

Keep the new doses separate from your others.

Once you've done this, and ready to start taking your new dose, you might experience a loss of the medication and might notice a difference, this is normal. 

Keep in touch here so we can follow your taper and help you understand what it means to be stable and when it's time to cut another 5%, or 10% if you so choose. 

I hope I haven't made this anymore complicated for u but you indicated you needed someone to explain in simple words to help you understand.  I needed this kind of assistance when I started as it does seem a little overwhelming at first.

I hope this helps, if not any of us can answer questions you might have ok

Take care 

Ns

 

[[Ta...]]

They treat us like we're criminals! And have absolutely no sympathy for the pain we are going thru. So sorry Knackered! Just keep going, Buddy!

[[kn...]]

@[Ta...].  Thanks for your comments and encouragement. I was frankly shocked by the reaction that I received.  I' been a behavioral health patient at this clinic for over thirty years. Our kids were born in the connecting hospital and both my wife and I have seen Dr.'s there throughout our entire lives.  Yet, it still seems as though the providers must insist that patients follow their precise directions, even though they know virtually nothing about the Benzodiazepine fiasco.  Sadly this health conglomerant holds the medical monopoly on the entire region in which we live.