Kindling:can changes in brands cause this?

[[Pa...]]

I’m confused regarding what causes kindling. I know completely being off a benzodiazepine and then re-introducing it again can cause kindling per Heather Ashton. Can kindling also be caused by changes in dosage? For example, if someone is changed repeatedly on generics, and it causes some (inadvertent) updose or down dose due to variations in strength, would this cause kindling? 

[[PE...]]

Yes that's what kindling is. Pamper effect due to up and down in dosage.

[[PE...]]

Not certain that changes in brands make any difference. Some here might disagree though

[[Pa...]]

According to this definition, kindling does not include dose or brand changes. 

Kindling - Benzodiazepine Information Coalition (benzoinfo.com)

[[Pa...]]

17 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

According to this definition, kindling does not include dose or brand changes. 

Kindling - Benzodiazepine Information Coalition (benzoinfo.com)

Thank you. Where the research on kindling has been done on alcohol - and people don’t “taper” alcohol like benzos- it seems kindling is something definitely seen with complete cessation, based on this article. 
 

It doesn’t appear there is research to know if it can happen in tapering. I guess the question would be do folks who updose have a harder time tapering after updosing (?)🤷🏻‍♀️

I haven’t updosed, but have experienced a significant uptick in physical problems with brand changes in similar med. 
 

 

[[Pa...]]

48 minutes ago, [[n...] said:

Not certain that changes in brands make any difference. Some here might disagree though

Thank you, unfortunately I do have significant increase in physical symptoms  with brand changes I’m sensitive I guess. 

[[Br...]]

4 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

Thank you, unfortunately I do have significant increase in physical symptoms  with brand changes I’m sensitive I guess. 

@[Pa...] - You're not alone - other members have reported difficulty adjusting to brand changes.    From what we see, a different brand can create some short-term problems. There may be differences - for example,  the replacement brand may slight differences in active ingredient and/or bioavailability. But after a period of adjustment you should be fine.

 

 

 

 

[[Pa...]]

5 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

It doesn’t appear there is research to know if it can happen in tapering. I guess the question would be do folks who updose have a harder time tapering after updosing (?)🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm not sure we can know.  A question would be, is up-dosing simply delaying the original issue, ie, the taper was difficult to begin with and going up in dose only changed the amount needed to be tapered after the initial relief in symptoms?  It seems to me that if an up-dose is warranted then a different taper method would go hand in hand with that decision.  

I've seen members get relief from an up-dose and go on to taper successfully, but I haven't correlated that with a change in taper method so without that knowledge, we can't know.

9 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

Thank you. Where the research on kindling has been done on alcohol - and people don’t “taper” alcohol like benzos- it seems kindling is something definitely seen with complete cessation, based on this article. 

Thank you for this perspective, I hadn't thought of it. 

[[PE...]]

8 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

Thank you, unfortunately I do have significant increase in physical symptoms  with brand changes I’m sensitive I guess. 

Yeah I understand it happens.

[[Pa...]]

41 minutes ago, [[B...] said:

@[Pa...] - You're not alone - other members have reported difficulty adjusting to brand changes.    From what we see, a different brand can create some short-term problems. There may be differences - for example,  the replacement brand may slight differences in active ingredient and/or bioavailability. But after a period of adjustment you should be fine.

Thank you for the reassurances.

[[...]]

@[Pa...] @[ne...] does that mean that even after a year of quitting reintroduceing 1 benzo could kindle my brain ? Or does kindling only happen when reintroduceing during withdrawal ? 

[[Pa...]]

[[Pa...]]

4 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

According to the article, and as I understand it,  kindling can happen with the re- introduction of a benzo following a (prior) complete cessation. That risk of kindling is for an indefinite time period following cessation- there is  no “safe” time frame beyond which you can reintroduce them. I don’t think anyone knows whether a single dose following cessation would or would not kindle someone. It could. As could using alcohol. 

I believe you're correct @[Pa...], that's the way I read this definition.  I can confirm that at least in my experience and what I've read from others that a single dose does not lead to kindling.  I believe it would with a full reinstatement, actual benzodiazepine studies would be nice to have. 

[[...]]

Gosh now i have to forever fear surgery and hospitals…  

[[Pa...]]

[[...]]

Thats a relief to know but its still risky because i dont know how i will react  did u do it with propofol ?

[[Pa...]]

[[Pa...]]

[[Kr...]]

Not kindle but I could definitely tell something wasn’t right

[[Bu...]]

On 28/02/2024 at 09:26, [[P...] said:

Thank you, unfortunately I do have significant increase in physical symptoms  with brand changes I’m sensitive I guess.

Hi @[Pa...],

For the first 10 years I took clonazepam it was always the same generic brand (mylan) then that was discontinued in the US, and my pharmacy started a revolving door of different brands.  Every time I had to switch, I had horrible symptoms.  The worst was a month-long adjustment that felt very much like how withdrawal feels now.  No doctor had ever heard of that kind of reaction, but I think I was just very sensitive and maybe also already in tolerance withdrawal.  

The problems from brand changes are what lead me to decide to get off.

[[Pa...]]

@[Bu...] i’m sorry you went through that too with brand change. I really feel for you having to go through all those brand changes, which is just de-stabilizing for those of us who are sensitive. It sounds like you were eventually able to find some stability. Which I’m glad to hear.

I was also on Mylan clonazepam for seven years before it was discontinued. After, I switched over to Roche - which is brand K. Fortunately there’s been a pretty stable supply. Roche did not work as well for me - it seemed to peak faster and leave my system sooner with less muscle relaxant properties - but it didn’t send me into a tailspin either. 

The changes in the L generics have been hellish. And they’re messing up my Klonopin taper. After months and months, there is no settling. I do settle with my klonopin cuts, this feels very different. 

 

 

[[ns...]]

On 28/02/2024 at 11:43, [[P...] said:

According to the article, and as I understand it,  kindling can happen with the re- introduction of a benzo following a (prior) complete cessation. That risk of kindling is for an indefinite time period following cessation- there is  no “safe” time frame beyond which you can reintroduce them. I don’t think anyone knows whether a single dose following cessation would or would not kindle someone. It could. As could using alcohol. 

I believe just learned  that I am kindling on another thread. Instead of a reaction to lorazepam.

This explains why im so miserable and I am heartbroken!

[[ns...]]

6 minutes ago, [[n...] said:

I believe just learned  that I am kindling on another thread. Instead of a reaction to lorazepam.

This explains why im so miserable and I am heartbroken!

 

6 minutes ago, [[n...] said:

I believe just learned  that I am kindling on another thread. Instead of a reaction to lorazepam.

This explains why im so miserable and I am heartbroken!

So if you're kindling should you be doing a long taper? I'm tapering off the same benzo I'm kindling from.

[[Bu...]]

@[Pa...],

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was the same.  Maybe it's more like an intolerance to a filler.  This happened to me with an allergy med I was taking.  I took name brand Clarinex for 20 years, then the company was sold and it was put on hold.  I was given a generic that I never adjusted to.  Then, when the new company restarted manufacturing of the name brand, it was not the same.  I had to quit taking it.  I really hope you find a good solution.  I know how awful it is when this stuff gets messed with.

[[ns...]]

2 minutes ago, [[B...] said:

@[Pa...],

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was the same.  Maybe it's more like an intolerance to a filler.  This happened to me with an allergy med I was taking.  I took name brand Clarinex for 20 years, then the company was sold and it was put on hold.  I was given a generic that I never adjusted to.  Then, when the new company restarted manufacturing of the name brand, it was not the same.  I had to quit taking it.  I really hope you find a good solution.  I know how awful it is when this stuff gets messed with.

I guess it could still be an allergy, i seem to have a reaction to everything, actually hoping it's allergy instead of kindling!

2 minutes ago, [[B...] said:

@[Pa...],

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was the same.  Maybe it's more like an intolerance to a filler.  This happened to me with an allergy med I was taking.  I took name brand Clarinex for 20 years, then the company was sold and it was put on hold.  I was given a generic that I never adjusted to.  Then, when the new company restarted manufacturing of the name brand, it was not the same.  I had to quit taking it.  I really hope you find a good solution.  I know how awful it is when this stuff gets messed with.

I guess thus