Hyperbolic daily microtaper

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I am near crying..

I want to do a daily HYBERBOLIC Micro taper of one of my doses Diazepam (5mg in 300 ml) and I DONT GET IT.

I found a Video on the internet and still dont get it.

Could someone help?

 

 

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I watched most of the video.  I am not impressed.  Way too complicated.  What scares me the most, is this person was only on benzos for 28 days before starting tapers.  Not much experience.

If you want help with the math of a taper, I will assist you.  I have helped many people.

If you want my help, then answer these questions:

Do you want to do a liquid or dry taper?

What is your current dose?

What is you benzo?

How many months do you want to taper?

[[He...]]

Salo i saw your post on liquid taper and i will try to do that.What dont you understand?

Isnt it just to fill 300ml water i a jar and put your daily dose in that and then use a syringe and pull out 1ml and throw that away and drink the rest then next day pull out 2ml and drink the rest? then the taper will last 300 days.

Best wishes to you!

 

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@[...]Colin

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19 hours ago, [[H...] said:

Salo, ich habe deinen Beitrag über Liquid Taper gesehen und ich werde versuchen, das zu tun. Was verstehst du nicht?

Ist es nicht einfach, ein Glas mit 300 ml Wasser zu füllen, die tägliche Dosis hineinzugeben und dann mit einer Spritze 1 ml herauszuziehen, das wegzuwerfen und den Rest zu trinken, dann am nächsten Tag 2 ml herauszuziehen und den Rest zu trinken? dann hält die Verjüngung 300 Tage.

Die besten Wünsche an Sie!

Hey helpless! Yes, I understand that.

But the problem with that taper is that you make a higher percent cut every day because it is a linear taper.

[[He...]]

I guess you are right .It is more complicated than i first thaught.What if you add first 1ml og liquid into the 300ml each day?

[[Fa...]]

 

Hi, @[...].  I don't have the energy to tackle the video you posted; however, I am not a proponent of spreadsheets or 'planned out' tapers... they never go to plan.  It sounds as if you have found Horowitz info/videos re: hyperbolic tapering.

What we know about hyperbolic tapering regimens is that they are reasonably well approximated by an exponential tapering regimen; however, in theory, an exponential taper will never end.  Exponential tapers are likely to provide more convenient calculations, and good general guidelines (particularly at higher doses); however, at some point in one's taper, the exponential tapering regimen must be abandoned (or one will never complete the taper).

Hyperbolic tapering is directly related to dosage amounts and their relative percentage of GABA-A occupancy.  In essence, the same effect on the brain occurs when one drops from 100mg to 75mg of diazepam as when dropping from 1mg to 0mg of diazepam.  With this said, everyone is different - letting symptoms, and functionality, guide the taper is the most important 'rule' imo.

I briefly ready through your past posts, and I would first ensure you are 'stable' on your 10mg dose of diazepam before proceeding.  It appears you started from a very high dosage amount and landed at 10mg relatively quickly.  Once stable, I would ensure I felt confident with the taper strategy I was planning to proceed with.

If you are planning on using a DIY liquid suspension using a 5mg diazepam tablet with milk, you may consider making a concentration that is more easily calculable (i.e., 5mg tablet in 250mL of milk).  5mg/250mL = .02mg/mL concentration.

When ready, as a trial period, you could switch 5mg of your total daily dose of 10mg to your suspension (e.g., 5mg tablet in 250mL milk), agitate the suspension, and ingest the entire 250mL every day for 2 weeks+ straight.  This would ensure you adjust to the dosage form change.  If all is well after 2 weeks, you could begin discarding 1mL/.02mg (after agitation) and ingest the remaining DIY liquid suspension.  

Day 1 - discard 1mL and ingest 249mL after agitation = 4.98mg (249 x .02) DIY liquid suspension + 5mg tablet = 9.98mg total daily dose

Day 2 - discard 2mL and ingest 248mL after agitation = 4.96mg (248 x .02) DIY liquid suspension + 5mg tablet = 9.96mg total daily dose

Ect...

After 14 days you could hold and will have reduced by .28mg and be ingesting 236mL of your DIY liquid suspension.  Your total daily dose will be 4.72mg in liquid and 5mg tablet for a total of 9.72mg at this point.  9.72 divided by 10 = .972 which means you will have made an exponential reduction of 2.8% over the first 2 weeks.

From here you could re-evaluate, make any necessary adjustments and resume your taper.  Hopefully someone will stop by to critique my information and/or relay their experience with their DIY liquid procedures.  I am tapering directly from a manufacturer's liquid so have no lived experience with your desired taper strategy - though I know many members have tapered off their benzodiazepine successfully using this strategy.  Wish you the best!

 

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1 hour ago, [[F...] said:

Hallo,@[...]. Ich habe nicht die Energie, das von Ihnen gepostete Video in Angriff zu nehmen. Allerdings bin ich kein Befürworter von Tabellenkalkulationen oder „geplanten“ Tapern … sie verlaufen nie nach Plan. Es hört sich so an, als hätten Sie Informationen/Videos von Horowitz zum Thema „ Hyperbolische  Verjüngung “ gefunden .

Was wir über hyperbolische Verjüngungskuren wissen, ist, dass sie durch eine exponentielle Verjüngungskur ziemlich gut angenähert werden; Theoretisch wird eine exponentielle Verjüngung jedoch niemals enden. Exponentielle Verjüngungen ermöglichen wahrscheinlich bequemere Berechnungen und gute allgemeine Richtlinien (insbesondere bei höheren Dosen); Irgendwann im Verlauf des Taperings muss jedoch das exponentielle Tapering-Programm aufgegeben werden (sonst wird man das Tapering nie abschließen).

Die hyperbolische Verjüngung steht in direktem Zusammenhang mit den Dosierungsmengen und ihrem relativen Prozentsatz der GABA-A-Belegung. Im Wesentlichen tritt die gleiche Wirkung auf das Gehirn auf, wenn man von 100 mg auf 75 mg Diazepam sinkt, wie wenn man von 1 mg auf 0 mg Diazepam sinkt. Abgesehen davon ist jeder anders – die Verjüngung von Symptomen und Funktionalität leiten zu lassen, ist meiner Meinung nach die wichtigste „Regel“.

Ich gehe kurz Ihre früheren Beiträge durch und möchte zunächst sicherstellen, dass Ihre 10-mg-Dosis Diazepam „stabil“ ist, bevor ich fortfahre . Offenbar haben Sie mit einer sehr hohen Dosierung begonnen und sind relativ schnell bei 10 mg gelandet. Sobald die Stabilität stabil ist, würde ich sicherstellen, dass ich mich mit der Taper-Strategie, mit der ich fortfahren wollte, sicher fühle.

Wenn Sie vorhaben, eine selbstgemachte flüssige Suspension aus einer 5-mg-Diazepam-Tablette mit Milch zu verwenden, können Sie eine leichter kalkulierbare Konzentration in Betracht ziehen (z. B. 5-mg-Tablette in 250 ml Milch). 5 mg/250 ml = 0,02 mg/ml Konzentration.

Wenn Sie bereit sind, können Sie als Testphase 5 mg Ihrer täglichen Gesamtdosis von 10 mg auf Ihre Suspension umstellen (z. B. 5 mg Tablette in 250 ml Milch), die Suspension umrühren und die gesamten 250 ml jeden Tag über einen Zeitraum von mehr als 2 Wochen einnehmen. Dies würde sicherstellen, dass Sie sich an die Änderung der Darreichungsform anpassen. Wenn nach 2 Wochen alles in Ordnung ist, können Sie damit beginnen, 1 ml/0,02 mg (nach dem Rühren) zu verwerfen und die verbleibende flüssige DIY-Suspension einzunehmen.  

Tag 1 – 1 ml verwerfen und nach dem Rühren 249 ml einnehmen = 4,98 mg (249 x 0,02) DIY-Flüssigsuspension + 5 mg Tablette = 9,98 mg Gesamttagesdosis

Tag 2 – 2 ml verwerfen und 248 ml nach dem Rühren einnehmen = 4,96 mg (248 x 0,02) DIY-Flüssigsuspension + 5 mg Tablette = 9,96 mg Gesamttagesdosis

Ekt...

Nach 14 Tagen können Sie die Menge halten und haben die Menge um 0,28 mg reduziert und nehmen 236 ml Ihrer flüssigen DIY-Suspension ein. Ihre tägliche Gesamtdosis beträgt zu diesem Zeitpunkt 4,72 mg in Flüssigkeit und 5 mg Tabletten, also insgesamt 9,72 mg. 9,72 geteilt durch 10 = 0,972, was bedeutet, dass Sie in den ersten zwei Wochen eine exponentielle Reduzierung von 2,8 % erzielt haben.

Von hier aus können Sie eine Neubewertung durchführen, alle erforderlichen Anpassungen vornehmen und mit der Verjüngung fortfahren. Hoffentlich kommt jemand vorbei, um meine Informationen zu kritisieren und/oder seine Erfahrungen mit seinen DIY-Flüssigkeitsverfahren weiterzugeben. Ich nehme die Dosis direkt aus der Flüssigkeit eines Herstellers und habe daher keine Erfahrung mit Ihrer gewünschten Ausschleichstrategie – obwohl ich weiß, dass viele Mitglieder ihr Benzodiazepin mit dieser Strategie erfolgreich ausgeschlichen haben. Wünsche Ihnen das Beste!

Thank you so much for your time and this great answer.

I will try not to worry about the fact that the taper is linear ..

 

And I don't have to worry that the pills will lose its effectiveness when I put it in milk or water, right ?

Because all the people who did this would have Made a CT and would have had terrible symptoms - right ?

My oh my .. my fear is really bad.

Can I ask you for advice when I have to change something in my taper?

I feel lost and alone 😵‍💫

 

Thank you again.

I hope you are doing great ❤️

[[Fa...]]

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For all of you doing a liquid Micro taper with PILLS!

what are the fillers in your pills?

I heard some fillers should not be shortened because the pill will lose its effectiveness!?!?!?

in my pills there are

Talkum

copovidon

Magnesiumstearat

Silicium

cornstarch

lactose

Cellulose

 

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18 hours ago, [[F...] said:

Hi again, @[...].  I'm glad you found my reply helpful.

Try not to overly concern yourself with 'linear', 'exponential', 'hyperbolic' etc...  For example, in the hypothetical situation I outlined, though you would be tapering 'linearly' (.02mg/1mL per day) for a 2 week period, you are keeping your desired 'exponential' reduction percentage (and associated 'hyperbolic' considerations) in mind (i.e., .28mg reduction over first 2 week period would be an 'exponential' reduction of 2.8%).  If you reduced 'linearly' again at .02mg/1mL per day) for another 2 week period - you would now be reducing at a 2.9% 'exponential' rate (new ending total daily dose of 9.44mg divided into your 'stage 2' starting dose of 9.72mg).

You will continue to push up your 'exponential' reduction percentage if you continue to taper by .02mg/mL per day.  All you have to do is hold your dose for a day or two to slow the 'exponential' reduction rate over any given period of time.

By keeping a detailed log of your dosing schedule, and any symptoms and their severity, you will begin to know what you can handle in terms of reductions over periods of time.  This is one big experiment and you are the chief investigator.  For example, I have noticed that depending on my 'stability level' at any given point directly affects how much, and how fast, I am able to reduce.  

I am not a pharmacologist or medical professional; however, we have to make assumptions with any taper strategy we proceed with.  I will not go into much more detail on this topic, but based on what I have read, my belief is that if your agitate your suspension well in whole fat milk, and consume it within a reasonable time frame (1-2 days), you will be just fine.  Like I said before - many members have tapered off their benzodiazepine using this strategy.

Most people are just fine switching dosage form.  I would note that from what I've read (and my own personal experience), this transition goes much more smoothly if you are 'stable' when you transition from one dosage form to another.  Furthermore, this transition is also most likely to succeed if one does not alter the dosage amount for a period (2 weeks+) while switching a portion of their dosage form.

Yes fear is one of the worst symptoms.  You will be ok!  Rest assured that many have tapered off successfully using your desired strategy.  Slow and steady is the key.  Listen to your body.  When uncertain, just hold your dose.  This almost always seems to help members.  My opinion is that only a small handful are negatively affected by holding when 'unstable'.

Please do reach back out on this thread with questions.  I would hold your dose for a bit and ensure you are 'stable' before making any 'moves' or decisions at this point.

My translator isnt working right now 😵‍💫

I will answer to it.

Thank you ❤️

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18 hours ago, [[F...] said:

Hi again, @[...].  I'm glad you found my reply helpful.

Try not to overly concern yourself with 'linear', 'exponential', 'hyperbolic' etc...  For example, in the hypothetical situation I outlined, though you would be tapering 'linearly' (.02mg/1mL per day) for a 2 week period, you are keeping your desired 'exponential' reduction percentage (and associated 'hyperbolic' considerations) in mind (i.e., .28mg reduction over first 2 week period would be an 'exponential' reduction of 2.8%).  If you reduced 'linearly' again at .02mg/1mL per day) for another 2 week period - you would now be reducing at a 2.9% 'exponential' rate (new ending total daily dose of 9.44mg divided into your 'stage 2' starting dose of 9.72mg).

You will continue to push up your 'exponential' reduction percentage if you continue to taper by .02mg/mL per day.  All you have to do is hold your dose for a day or two to slow the 'exponential' reduction rate over any given period of time.

By keeping a detailed log of your dosing schedule, and any symptoms and their severity, you will begin to know what you can handle in terms of reductions over periods of time.  This is one big experiment and you are the chief investigator.  For example, I have noticed that depending on my 'stability level' at any given point directly affects how much, and how fast, I am able to reduce.  

I am not a pharmacologist or medical professional; however, we have to make assumptions with any taper strategy we proceed with.  I will not go into much more detail on this topic, but based on what I have read, my belief is that if your agitate your suspension well in whole fat milk, and consume it within a reasonable time frame (1-2 days), you will be just fine.  Like I said before - many members have tapered off their benzodiazepine using this strategy.

Most people are just fine switching dosage form.  I would note that from what I've read (and my own personal experience), this transition goes much more smoothly if you are 'stable' when you transition from one dosage form to another.  Furthermore, this transition is also most likely to succeed if one does not alter the dosage amount for a period (2 weeks+) while switching a portion of their dosage form.

Ja, Angst ist eines der schlimmsten Symptome. Du wirst okay sein! Seien Sie versichert, dass viele mit der von Ihnen gewünschten Strategie erfolgreich ausgestiegen sind. Langsam und stetig ist der Schlüssel. Hören Sie auf Ihren Körper. Wenn Sie unsicher sind, halten Sie einfach Ihre Dosis ein. Dies scheint den Mitgliedern fast immer zu helfen. Ich bin der Meinung, dass nur eine kleine Handvoll davon negativ beeinflusst wird, wenn man sie in einem „instabilen“ Zustand hält.

Bitte wenden Sie sich bei Fragen noch einmal an diesen Thread. Ich würde Ihre Dosis eine Weile einhalten und sicherstellen, dass Sie „stabil“ sind, bevor ich zu diesem Zeitpunkt irgendwelche „Schritte“ oder Entscheidungen treffe.

Ha, Translation works again, yay!

 

First of all again a huge thank you for your time and your help.

 

I will try not to worry about the fact that its linear.

 

I started tapering Yesterday and my symptoms are horrible, my head sais "Valium isnt working in milk I missed s whole dose".

But like you said a lot of people did that.

So I can be sure it wont stop working, right?

My oh my fear can create so heavy Symptoms!!!!!

I wish there would be liquid in Germany.

This whole thing sucks 🤣

Sorry for my short response.

I feel like I had no Valium Yesterday.

But like you said that can't be true..

[[Li...]]

Hello @[...].  Per forum guidelines, I am responding to the question you sent me via a personal message (PM) here on the open forum.

From your PM, my understanding is that a 10mg/mL concentrated oral diazepam solution is available in your country.

You’ve asked if the above liquid can be diluted with milk or water — I’m assuming to achieve a lower concentration liquid that can be used for tapering.

We have multiple members who have done this over the years, typically using water and a less concentrated manufacturer’s liquid. Here in the US, diazepam is available in a 1mg/1mL oral solution.   

However, we also had a member a while back who wished to dilute her concentrated, 10mg/mL oral diazepam solution.  After conducting considerable research and consulting with another member who claimed to have experience as a drug formulation scientist, she decided to use whole fat, homogenized milk.  She summarized her findings, complete with references here:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=267260.msg3372864#msg3372864

 

 

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9 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Hallo@[...]. Gemäß den Forenrichtlinien beantworte ich die Frage, die Sie mir per persönlicher Nachricht (PN) hier im offenen Forum gesendet haben.

Ihrem PM zufolge ist meines Erachtens in Ihrem Land eine konzentrierte orale Diazepamlösung mit 10 mg/ml erhältlich.

Sie haben gefragt, ob die obige Flüssigkeit mit Milch oder Wasser verdünnt werden kann. Ich gehe davon aus, dass Sie eine Flüssigkeit mit geringerer Konzentration erhalten, die zum Ausschleichen verwendet werden kann.

Wir haben mehrere Mitglieder, die dies im Laufe der Jahre getan haben, wobei sie normalerweise Wasser und eine weniger konzentrierte Herstellerflüssigkeit verwendeten. Hier in den USA ist Diazepam in einer oralen Lösung von 1 mg/1 ml erhältlich.   

Allerdings hatten wir vor einiger Zeit auch ein Mitglied, das ihre konzentrierte orale Diazepamlösung mit 10 mg/ml verdünnen wollte. Nachdem sie umfangreiche Recherchen durchgeführt und sich mit einem anderen Mitglied beraten hatte, das behauptete, Erfahrung als Wissenschaftlerin in der Arzneimittelformulierung zu haben, entschied sie sich für die Verwendung von homogenisierter Vollfettmilch. Sie fasste ihre Ergebnisse zusammen mit Referenzen hier zusammen:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=267260.msg3372864#msg3372864

Hey. Thank you for your answer.

 

They did great work there but what can i say, i don't get it.

I will never find a save way for me to taper

I will be stucked with wd Symptoms in 10 mg forever 

So hopeless

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@[...]

Can you help me with the maths?

I only got 10 mg pills which I can do in 5 mg

And Drops that say 10mg/ml (its not like this Roxane Thing you got in the Usa, you shouldnt put it in water.. but you shouldnt put pills in water neither I guess)

 

I want to reduce one of my doses, the second. 5 mg.

Now I don't know if I should put a 5 mg pill in 300 ml milk (how much would I reduce with 1ml per day?)

Or If I should make a solution with milk and 10 drops which would be 5 mg in 300 ml milk

I feel stucked and I am afraid that the doses change everyday because it would be a selfmade solution

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Do you have both 5mg pills and also drops?

Can you get lots of 5mg pills?  If so, I will help you reduce with pills because I think drops can vary in size.

 

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@[...]GumbyGirl this is it

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Put one 5 mg pill in a jar.

Add a few drops of vodka and watch it break down (you can skip this step if you are afraid of alcohol but then you must stir for a very long time).

Add 300mL of milk and shake up and stir.

Day 1 - Remove 1 mL and drink the rest.  Remember to rinse the jar with water and drink the rinse water.

Day 2 - Remover 2 mL and drink the rest.  Remember to rinse the jar with water and drink the rinse water.

Continue until day 300

Each day, you will reduce by 0.0167 mg of your drug.

 

 

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I have never used alcohol on a Valium pill so you will have to experiment with the alcohol.  Just add it drop by drop and when you see the pill get loose and fall apart, then that should be enough.

Remember, all tapers have withdrawal symptoms.  Just keep reducing as long as the symptoms are tolerable.  When the symptoms get too bad to continue, hold until you feel a little stronger.

Don't worry about the particles.  Just stir very well before removing the 1 mL.  Yes, the Valium taper will work in milk.

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I stress about everything.

I took a dose in milk for a test two days ago and I felt like CT.

What panic can do to our symptoms is crazy.

I wish I could tell you how much I appreciate your help and time.

I hope I can contact you again.

Its a lonely road.

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Great, now I read that Diazepam is not good with a daily taper because its long acting. I think maybe it was @[Li...] who wrote this? Sorry if not.

But what now? 😵‍💫

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I mean Not good for a daily Micro taper