Cannibis and Klonopin

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I am currently in a taper from K.  Im a 74 year old male.  My PCP prescribed 30 pills at .5 mg. I didnt realize how dangerous these drugs are but i thought i was being careful. From sept 23 to dec 23 i took maybe 1 or 2 pills a week.  Never gave them a second thought until what i now understand was interdose withdrawls.  So mid december i started on a taper. I am currently taking .125 mg 2 or 3 times a day. Trying to stay a 2 times a day but lots of wd symptoms.  So thats my story but i am hoping someone can help me with the following questions. 
1. I am taking medical cannibis edibles each night to try and get a couple hrs sleep. Is that ok.  
2. Also going to switch from struggling to cut small pieces to crushing pills and mass them on a scale to be much more accurate. 
 

Does anyone have any suggestions for me. 
Much appreciated in advance. 

[[Br...]]

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Thanks Brighterday for your suggestions.  Re: dosing I agree and i am trying to be very consistant.  I have a scale and since 1 klonopin .5 mg has a mass of about 170 mg I am taking 20 mg 3 times a day.  Its a little more difficult to shave pills to get real close to 20 mg. It is easier to crush them and then mass 20 mg.  My question is can powdered pills be taken safely ?  When i feel ok on this dose i will slowly continue taper.  My other question you responded to was the use of thc/cbd.   I take a 10 mg gummy at night. I have both all thc and  thc/cbd.  It gives me 3-4 hrs sleep on a good night.  The thc at night doesnt seem to cause much anxiety.  If I take in daytime it does so only take an hour before bed.  I much appreciate your help.  Any suggestions welcome.  Thanks 

[[Br...]]

I believe it's fine to crush the Klonopin pills.  You may find this link helpful: https://benzodrytapermath.com 

I'm glad the gummies are working for you.  You can do a Search using Search box in upper right hand corner of this page using terms "CBD", "Cannabis", "THC" and see other related posts.

[[Li...]]

Hello @[...].  

Tip of the hat for (1) understanding the difference between the weight of a pill and the weight of the active ingredient in the pill and (2) using the correct unit of measurement for your pill weight.  Many of our members struggle with these concepts.

It sounds like you know what you’re doing with respect to using scales.   Are you also aware that when weighing amounts of less than 120mg  [0.120 grams], compounders typically add an inert powder to bulk the powder up to the minimum weight?  This is the technique used in the website @[Br...] shared with you.

However, having said that, other individuals have been able to taper clonazepam successfully without adding a bulking (diluting) agent. Here’s an example:

 

Note: This individual does not use the correct unit of measurement for his average pill powder weight - it should be 0.202g (or 202mg) not 0.202mg.

 

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Hello Libertas.  Thank you for helping.  The microspoon and capsule will be a big help.  Will order on Amazon.  I was a physics and math teach so im good with units and calculations.  Not sure about compounding but I am just crushing .5 mg tablets so do I need to be concerned about that ?  Also, do you have any experience using medical marijuana to help sleep ?  It seems to help me get a couple hours. 

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Thank you Brighterday. All your info has been very helpful.  

[[Li...]]

You’re most welcome, @[...].

No wonder you’re good at units and calculations —  I wish we could bottle your skills as a former math/physics teacher!  Sadly, some members get into trouble with their tapers because they do not understand basic concepts and cannot do the simple math required, even with the help of online calculators.

Tapering is all about experimentation — each of us has to discover what works for us and be prepared to make adjustments in our approach based on our response.   If the powder/weigh technique shown in the video seems do-able to you, then I suggest you give it a trial run.   One of the strengths of the technique the individual used is that it avoids drug loss due to surface transfer.  A potential weakness is that it looks like the individual may have made up large batches of the pill powder.  My concern with this is the powder might absorb moisture from the air over time which would throw off the weight.  Consequently, if I were using this technique, I’d make up small batches (perhaps 1 week of pills at a time). 

I don’t have personal experience using medical marijuana or CBD for sleep, but below is a post from a member I highly respect about her use of CBD gummies. Her post is just one of many in a large 140+ page thread (topic) titled: “Medical Cannabis and Cannabis CBD  Oil Group”. The thread has been archived but can still be read and searched. 

Quote

If you want to get started with CBD, to see if it will help you,  my advice is to go slow. Go to your local dispensary and pick up a gummie that has about 25 mgs of CBD in it. By definition CBD is very low in THC. THC never did calm me and was not helpful on my taper to give me that ommmmm feeling. 25 mgs should work fine. Do not take more . . . you will not "feel" anything dramatic from CBD. Give it a chance. If you want to order online I use lazarusnaturals.com. They have a great variety of products. Lots of gummies.   

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Thank you again for taking the time to help. I agree that keeping a large amount of powder is a mistake.  As you suggested I have ordered the veggie capsules and a microspoon.  I am going to make up a week or two of capsules at a time. I am just hoping to be done with taper before my 4th back surgery on april 9. First three were a failure. Next surgery is a big one. They have to remove all spinal hardware and start all over again.  Will be an all day surgery. Anyway, will post as I get through taper.  Thanks again. 

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Am having lots of wd at 20 mg (pill weight) x 3 a day.  Thats about 35% of the .5 mg I started with.  may have dropped too quickly.    This took a month.   Going to hold for a bit to stabilize.  My surgery is 2 months away and dont think i will be done taper.   Worried that long anesthesia will exacerbate wd symptoms.  Any thoughts ?

[[Br...]]

Hello @[...] - I'm so sorry you're feeling pressure to finish your taper before your surgery.  As you know, the rationale for tapering fairly rapidly is that you were on the Klonopin for a brief period.  But if the symptoms are intolerable then I agree it makes sense to hold.  My feeling is that the less stress, worry and pressure you contend with in regard to both your taper and surgery, the better.  There's no way of knowing whether surgery will lead to intensified symptoms; it varies by individual.  It may help to remind yourself that if symptoms become more intense after a stressor like a major surgery, they tend to settle down afterward whether you are in the middle of tapering or experiencing post withdrawal symptoms.  But my hope is that you will try to remain positive and not dwell on worries if you can.

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Thank you.  You have always responded to my questions. The only symptom that is intolerable is the nausea.  Do you or any members have any suggestions to ease the nausea

[[Br...]]

Here's a link that may help: https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/symptom/nausea

I believe some people find ginger helpful for soothing nausea - ginger tea, candies or cookies.

 

[[Li...]]

I’m sorry you’re having withdrawal symptoms @[...].  I’ve tried to assemble your tapering history from your past posts.  Is the following correct?

Mid-Dec: 0.5mg (active ingredient)
January 25: between 0.25mg mg and 0.375mg, lots of withdrawal symptoms at 0.25mg
January 29:  0.176mg, lots of withdrawal symptoms

If so, it looks like you started to destabilize when you made a 50% reduction in dose from 0.5mg to 0.25mg.  It’s likely you continued to destabilize when you made another 29.6% reduction from 0.25mg to 0.176mg.  

Your recent change in ‘dosage form’ (from pill pieces to encapsulated pill powder) may also be a factor. When did you make the switch from pieces to powder?  Have you noticed any changes in onset or duration of action of the drug or in your withdrawal symptoms?  

Do you have a sense of what dose would keep your symptoms in the tolerable range and allow you to remain functional?  If so, in your shoes, I would take that dose for 12 days or so in hopes of establishing a baseline of symptoms/functionality.  Then, when I felt ready, I would trial a 5-10% reduction from that dose.

Re: your upcoming surgery …

I agree with @[Br...] that there's no way of knowing whether surgery will lead to intensified symptoms in your particular case.  As the saying goes, “Don’t borrow trouble from tomorrow.”

However, having said that, if you have not already done so, I encourage you to meet with your anesthesiologist to discuss your situation and agree on a game plan for your April surgery.  This blog by Jennifer Leigh (a clonazepam withdrawal survivor who now works as a ‘benzo coach’) describes how she approached a conversation with her CRNA (certified registered nurse anesthesiologist) before a surgical procedure:

Ketamine Anesthesia and Benzodiazepine Withdrawal
https://benzowithdrawalhelp.com/for-bwd-bind-sufferers/ketamine-anesthesia-and-benzodiazepine-withdrawal/

 

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Libertas.   Nice to see someone else with good math skills.  You are spot on with your analysis.  I am going to stay at .176 for a bit to try and stabilize.  I am trying to be off these drugs before surgery but if not I will discuss with hospital bringing in capsules since I doubt they can supply such micro doses. Thank you for your time and expertise  Btw I did see an increase in symptoms going to powder.  Much more accurate and was most likely another drop from pill cutting

[[Li...]]

Greetings, @[...].  My father earned dual PhDs in mathematics and physics so I like to think (hope) I inherited at least a dash of his abilities. 

Your decision to hold at 0.176mg is a sound one.  Based on what you’ve shared with us, it appears you are physically dependent on the clonazepam despite your short-term, intermittent use.  I know you are eager to discontinue the drug before your surgery in April but fear you will put yourself at risk healthwise if you taper too quickly (the last thing you want is to undergo a long and complicated surgery when your nervous system is dysregulated).  Instead, I encourage you to toss out the calendar and let your symptoms guide the amount and timing of your reductions moving forward.

Tip of the hat for recognizing that taking a non-standard, off-label dosage form may cause issues for the hospital.  Based on personal experience with an elderly relative and what I’ve read here and elsewhere, hospitals typically wish to dispense and administer their own meds not ones brought in by the patient; they also are not keen to dispense/administer non-standard dose amounts.  I can think of several workarounds we can discuss if necessary. 

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Thats pretty amazing double major in both math/physics.  I had a double major math/physics but a phd is pretty special. You have to come up with something new.  
So re: hospital meds, My doctor is going to write a letter.  I will reach out to hospital next month.  Will keep you up to speed. 
thx