Lost In Denver

[[je...]]

I know @[Pa...] quit Ambien cold turkey approximately a year after she cold turkeyed K. And she didn't experience any side effects from just stopping it. I would suggest rather than just completely stopping it, why not go to 5mg first and see how it goes for a couple of days? Then if all goes well, you can go stop the 5mg again or go back up if you need to?

Insomnia is likely going to be a struggle for a while. I started having sleep issues while on 2mg K - struggling to fall asleep, but sleeping 7-8 hrs. When I started tapering my sleep went right down to 3hrs a night. If I was lucky it would be unbroken. I'm a year off and only in the last couple of months am I getting 3-5hrs of sleep. If I'm very lucky it will be unbroken but usually I wake up after 3hrs but at least I fall asleep again for another 2 hrs. I do also still have nights of 3hrs sleep. That's been my life for 3 years now. At least I can see it's improving. The best advice is not to stress about sleep because it will only keep you awake. You just need to accept this is how it's going to be for you for now, otherwise, you're stressing about not sleeping and the stress is actually keeping you awake. 

[[Pa...]]

Hi @[De...], I’m so glad you’re asking questions because while we each experience this process differently, there are common issues we share.

@[je...] is correct, I did stop Ambien cold turkey and it worked well for me but I can’t recommend it because its never a good idea to cold turkey these types of medications.  I couldn’t sleep for a few days and when I did I had horrific slasher type dreams but the relief I felt from the interdose withdrawal symptoms caused by the Ambien during the day was worth it.  The nausea, inner trembling, anxiety and dark thoughts left me almost immediately. 

I agree with @[je...], if you’re leaning towards stopping the Ambien, I’d cut it in half and see how it goes rather than ditching the entire 10 mgs.  I doubt you’ll get any sleep but pay attention to how you feel the next day. 

[[De...]]

Ok thanks guys. I actually tried doing this last night and moved down from 10mg to 5mg. I had a broken, but manageable nights sleep. I’ve also been experimenting with microdosing Indica weed gummy (less than 2mg). It helped calm me down. The ambien has almost completely stopped working and I suspect is causing many of the issues I’m currently having with the Kolonopin taper. I’ve also tried Hydroxizene, but it obviously isn’t as strong as a Z-drug. 

I actually almost feel some sense of relief that the ambien isn’t working as well as it used to. It’s like, cutting it out…What’s the worst that can happen? I don’t sleep? That’s sort of already happening. 

I might try 5mg of ambien again this evening and continue to cut at a gradual pace, while at holding my K at its current levels.

im very lucky to have a supportive home/wife and also work remotely, so not sleeping is somewhat manageable at the moment (I guess).

I’m honestly not expecting an overnight fix for any of this, but making progress on reducing the ambien dosage has given me a renewed confidence. I guess it’s only day 1 though. 
 

[[De...]]

@[Pa...] at what point after your ambien cut did things start returning to normal-ish for you. Sounds like a few days or a week?

[[je...]]

34 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

I might try 5mg of ambien again this evening and continue to cut at a gradual pace, while at holding my K at its current levels.

It's good to have a plan in place, then you have direction and a sense of purpose in moving forward. I know for myself just knowing the next two steps made it easier to push through the symptoms. 

[[Pa...]]

4 hours ago, [[D...] said:

@[Pa...] at what point after your ambien cut did things start returning to normal-ish for you. Sounds like a few days or a week?

I’m pleased to hear your confidence, and you’re right, its good to have a plan because indecision is very stressful. 

As far as I can recall, when I stopped the Ambien, I didn’t sleep the first night, and although I was tired the next day, I felt a lot calmer, the interdose symptoms were diminished.  The second night, I think I got some what we call micro-sleep.  It’s not exactly sleep, its more like I lost time for a minute or two.  We suspect this is our bodies way of keeping our systems going when real sleep isn’t forthcoming.  But I remember feeling much improved the second full day of my cold turkey.  The third night is when I started getting larger blocks of sleep, and that was when the nightmares started but they only lasted two nights. 

I think it took a couple of weeks to find my sleep pattern, I’ve always been challenged when it comes to sleep but I get enough to get by and getting real sleep is so much better than the sleep I got on the drug. 

[[De...]]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback. I've downshifted from 10mg, to 5mg down to .4mg of ambien. My sleep is really poor, but I'm ok with it as long as I get a few hours (usually from 4-7am). I don't know if I'm quite ready to step off it yet but it's barely working.

I'm also happy to say my original baseline dosage in mid-December was 1mg of klonopin and down to .25 to .35 mg. Hopefully soon I can start stepping off my morning dosage.

I would say life is an overall struggle right now but I'm ok sitting with the discomfort and taking it one day at a time.

[[je...]]

I'm just checking that you're holding your K dose at 0.5mg? 

[[De...]]

Yesterday I missed my morning dose by accident so went down to .35 in the evening. I didn’t sleep well but I’m feeling ok. I was holding at .5 up until yesterday but my general anxiety seems to be manageable today at the reduced dose yesterday. It’s not part of my scheduled taper, but for some reason my baseline anxiety seems to be lower. Perhaps I rushed it again and should go back to .5mg while I completely get off ambien? I sense I might have messed up yesterday but suprisingly feeling alright today despite lowering the K yesterday. 

 

[[De...]]

I should also mention the last 2 days have been very calm life wise, kids back in school, house calm, light week at work. Perhaps that’s playing into my feeling better today at a reduced dose is my external triggers have been very low the last 2 days. 

[[je...]]

On 26/01/2024 at 09:14, [[D...] said:

Also yes, I’m back on .5mg on K, half pill in morning, half in evening.

gosh I’ve really made a mess of things….

I'm sorry but I don't understand your dosing. My understanding was you're taking 0.25mg twice a day. If that's correct then you cannot go down to 0.35mg on one of them, because that's an increase not a decrease. 

11 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

Yesterday I missed my morning dose by accident so went down to .35 in the evening.

 

[[De...]]

Ah ok, that makes sense. I think yesterday I might have messed up and need to get back on my .25/.25 schedule. Yesterday was 0/.35, which was a mistake on my part. What you’re saying makes sense. I was thinking if I took an overall lower dosage yesterday and felt ok, it might be a positive sign to reduce K but lost sight of the original suggestion of holding and just reducing the ambien. Appreciate you calling that out.

[[je...]]

Just to clarify I'm not here to call anyone out. How people choose to taper is entirely up to them and we don't judge or enforce our suggestions on others. We support whatever you choose to do and we will keep supporting you even if you disagree with our suggestions.

But what we absolutely need is clarity on the numbers and the doses people are taking. This is really crucial to help us help you. Every bit of advice we give is based on the information provided by you. If that information is incorrect then we cannot give you the best advice. Often in withdrawal people get their numbers mixed up because we deal with brain fog and decreased mental capacity. So we always double and triple check the numbers. 

I know the feeling of just wanting to get off these drugs as soon as possible. I can only offer you experience. It is so much more valuable to do it slowly and be able to somewhat enjoy life with your family than to be constantly miserable. I used to think if I can get this over and done with I can get on with my life. It doesn't work that way. Three years down the line and only now am I starting to feel like I'm putting the pieces back together. I can never replace the past three years of life with my family and the things we didn't do because I felt too sick to participate in life.

If you want to cut the K you can. But here's the thing. You'll likely go into withdrawal. We won't know if it's the K or the Ambien causing your symptoms, or a combination of both. Now we don't know how to proceed with Ambien because we don't know how severely you react to large cuts of Ambien. So we're back at square one. You'll likely have to hold for a couple of weeks or months because you made a 50% cut of Ambien plus a 35% cut of K. Or more likely your body can't handle these cuts and you have to updose again. Or maybe you'll be okay, but you have to decide whether it's worth the risk.

Personally I think when you work and you have a family to take care of, the best course of action is to hold the K until you stopped the Ambien. But once again it's really up to you and what you feel is best. 

 

[[Pa...]]

I’m grateful both you and @[je...] took a look at your Klonopin numbers, keeping that dose stable while you work on the Ambien is critical.  And please don’t make any decisions or judgements based on one day of reactions, it’s important we gather all the facts so we can make the right decision.

I don’t know if you’ve even steered a boat but its so easy to over-correct.  One tiny twist to the wheel and the boat will make too large of an arc and its tough to get it back on course.  This process reminds me of that, one tiny change can have a huge effect on the course of your taper so small, well thought out actions are best.

[[De...]]

Yea I completely hear what you’re saying. To be candid, there’s a strong, ever present urge to get off all these things, so that’s probably one of the major reasons for my missteps. I’m relatively happy with the progress on my ambien taper despite the lack of sleep, but probably need to be consistent and steady with my K taper so I don’t wind back up where I was a month ago. I think I will revert back to the original plan today and continue to chip away at the ambien.

[[De...]]

Sorry I have one more question and I probably already know the answer. Since this all began in December, I’ve abstained completely from alchohol. Not a single drop for about 40 days. I’m fairly comfortable giving it up, as booze was never really an issue for me other than the occasional beer every once in a while. I would assume the recommendation across the board would be to avoid alcohol completely as I taper, but I find myself wanting a beer after putting the kids to bed. I used to do this occasionally to unwind, but can I assume the answer would be to never drink until my taper is through with my meds?

[[je...]]

We usually recommend not to take alcohol until you're well into recovery (not just until you've stopped tapering). Alcohol works on the same receptors as benzo's and around here it's known as "liquid benzo's". It can amplify your symptoms. Generally people will wait until the end of their taper when they have considerably less symptoms and then gradually start introducing it. Some people are fine with it once their symptoms have settled down a bit, others find they have to be careful with alcohol after benzo injury. 

[[De...]]

Ok thanks. I assumed that to be the case. My suspicion is that anything more than a beer would amplify my anxiety the next day, so I just completely cut it out. It’s just so weird for me to think “I can’t drink” as someone who’s never had a problem for 40 years.

Appreciate you answering my dumb questions.  

[[je...]]

There's no such thing as a dumb question. Unfortunately this process takes quite a bit from us - even the little pleasures in life. But it teaches you a lot about gratitude when start to feel better again. 

[[De...]]

Hey guys,

I have one more question for the group and hoping you can help. Given that I’m currently on both K and ambien, once I’m eventually fully off one medication (ambien), would this hypothetically make the tapering off Klonopin easier in some way? I totally understand the logic of getting off one medication at a time, but should getting off one medication make it any easier to taper off the second? My sense is both will be uncomfortable but just trying to get a sense of what’s to come. It sounds like @[Pa...] cold turkeyed both meds, so any insight on what’s to come would be helpful. 
 

Thanks again in advance.

[[je...]]

I don't know if it will make the K taper easier in terms of withdrawal symptoms. Right now we're using the K to buffer the withdrawal from Ambien, because K is much more potent and has a longer half-life. But psychologically I think it will help to be only on one drug. There is something psychologically about it when you've managed to rid yourself of one benzo, regardless of which one it is. 

[[De...]]

Ok yea that makes sense. I also really appreciate how you used the word “injury” earlier. For some reason that clearly articulates what it feels like 👍 

[[Pa...]]

I’m glad you’re going back on plan, we understand wanting to be off the drugs, it makes sense to get the poison out so you can recover from its effects but it doesn’t work that way. We need to allow our receptors the time they need to get back in the game after the drug sidelined them.

I believe the Clonazepam taper will be challenging, i don’t want to discourage, just prepare you. 

[[De...]]

Hi all,

Me again. Wanted to update the thread and get some input/feedback. At the direction of my psych and therapist, I’ve decided to taper off my klonopin before ambien. Understand you suggested the opposite but I think given my feedback from my care team, I want to follow their plan. As it stands right now, I’m currently “stable” at 5mg of ambien and .25/.25 of klonopin. I’ve been relatively stable at this level since I last updated. This past week, I’ve had maybe 5 “good” days, but today was higher anxiety. Sleep is somewhat stable but still broken, Anxiety seems to increase in late afternoon. I’m taking my last dose of klonopin around 6pm and ambien around 11pm.

My psychiatrist has recommended a similar taper that people have mentioned here before at reducing my K by about 10% every 2 weeks. 

While I feel confident and optimistic I can cut my klonopin gradually, I’m also aware I’ve reduced my ambien from 10mg to 5mg. I’ve actually found my sleep is better at 5mg than 10mg, which is strange. I don’t want to go up on any medications, so working as hard as a I can to stay at my current levels, and begin reducing my K soon after I’ve held my taper for a little while.

My one question, is that given the fact that I’m taking K both in the morning and evening, should I begin cutting the morning dose or evening dose first. I’ve read you should try and reduce the one that feels “less important”, but wanted to ask the group.

[[wi...]]

57 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

My one question, is that given the fact that I’m taking K both in the morning and evening, should I begin cutting the morning dose or evening dose first. I’ve read you should try and reduce the one that feels “less important”, but wanted to ask the group.

You said your sleep is pretty manageable right now, so maybe try reducing the morning dose first rather than potentially upsetting your system in the evening. Let your body continue to accept the full 5mg Ambien an.25 Klonopin at night as it is used to.  We all have to just try things out and see.

Some might suggest you reduce the evening dose first as you have the cushion of the ambien a few hours later.  Just feel which resonates more in your gut and go with that..make sense?

Edited February 4 by [wi...]