When do withdrawals start?

[[Md...]]

Just wondering when withdrawals start once you begin tapering?

I have been doing a daily micro taper via liquid titration from Valium for just over a month and may just now be starting to feel it. 

I’m experiencing agitation, more fatigue and depression than normal, and a slight inability to focus. 

I have been doing 5% cuts every 4 weeks.

While this is a slower taper, would it be best to hold?

Thanks.

Edited January 15 by [Md...]

[[je...]]

With micro tapering it's very difficult to determine when symptoms kick in, especially in long acting drugs, but this sounds pretty much on track for Valium and the rate you're tapering at. When I did micro tapering from K, I had all my symptoms consistently. I describe it as feeling 'blah' all the time. With this method your symptoms will likely not lighten up like cut and hold. With cut and hold you have a period where symptoms intensify and then level out. With micro tapering, because you're making daily reductions it's unlikely you'll have them disappear. It will be a consistent intensity - or rather, let me say, from now on it should be a consistent intensity.

It doesn't sound to me like you need to hold. Your percentage is fairly low 5% per month or 2.5% every two weeks and tapering does not mean the absence of symptoms or feeling good, it means you're functional. Unless you feel you cannot function or symptoms are getting very intense.

I assume you're keeping a daily journal where you're tracking your symptoms? If your symptoms are getting more intense, then you'd like to hold.

[[Md...]]

21 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

With micro tapering it's very difficult to determine when symptoms kick in, especially in long acting drugs, but this sounds pretty much on track for Valium and the rate you're tapering at. When I did micro tapering from K, I had all my symptoms consistently. I describe it as feeling 'blah' all the time. With this method your symptoms will likely not lighten up like cut and hold. With cut and hold you have a period where symptoms intensify and then level out. With micro tapering, because you're making daily reductions it's unlikely you'll have them disappear. It will be a consistent intensity - or rather, let me say, from now on it should be a consistent intensity.

It doesn't sound to me like you need to hold. Your percentage is fairly low 5% per month or 2.5% every two weeks and tapering does not mean the absence of symptoms or feeling good, it means you're functional. Unless you feel you cannot function or symptoms are getting very intense.

I assume you're keeping a daily journal where you're tracking your symptoms? If your symptoms are getting more intense, then you'd like to hold.

Thank you for explaining. I personally never did feel fully functional on Valium, due to the depression, which did lighten up before I started tapering, but mainly because of the fatigue, which never eased up. 

I have moments where i am functional throughout the day, but im cutting from 10mg 3 times a day, so that’s twice a day where i barely feel functional due to fatigue, and my nightly dose never mattered because i would just go to sleep anyway. 

At this pace we’re talking a 20 month long taper, which I don’t think that’s even practical with the way i have felt today. 

My neuropathic pain seems to be coming back as well, so im honestly wondering if i should have even started tapering when i did.

So holding will not work now? And im assuming going back to my original dose would be a bad idea? 
 

Thank you.

[[je...]]

7 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

so im honestly wondering if i should have even started tapering when i did

If you don't feel you were functional to start tapering, then yes keep holding. My statements were based on the assumption you were functional after crossing over.

How long since the cross over?

[[Md...]]

2 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

If you don't feel you were functional to start tapering, then yes keep holding. My statements were based on the assumption you were functional after crossing over.

How long since the cross over?

I crossed over from Xanax to Valium last summer, probably around June. 

I would have just stayed on the Xanax, because i was totally functional, but I developed very painful interdose withdrawals after i tried tapering myself. 

Since my body doesn’t seem to respond very well to Valium due to the fatigue and depression (assuming Valium is usually the benzo that causes those symptoms the most), what are your thoughts about crossing over to another long half life benzo, like Klonopin? 

[[je...]]

I don't have a lot of experience in crossing over from different benzo's. But I would think six months would be enough to stabilize from that. Also given you have an expert doctor on your team who did your cross over. I'm generally not in favour of going from one benzo to another because I just don't know what all these changes do to your nervous system. But if you're not functioning then I understand exploring different options. So you can't work, or take care of your daily tasks? Are you on the couch every day?

[[Md...]]

10 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

I don't have a lot of experience in crossing over from different benzo's. But I would think six months would be enough to stabilize from that. Also given you have an expert doctor on your team who did your cross over. I'm generally not in favour of going from one benzo to another because I just don't know what all these changes do to your nervous system. But if you're not functioning then I understand exploring different options. So you can't work, or take care of your daily tasks? Are you on the couch every day?

I’m a stay at home parent, so i do my best to take my meds planned around the responsibilities of what that requires. With being a SAHP, i am able to sneak in little cat naps after the Valium kicks in, which helps, but i am still usually exhausted, which often prevents me from doing more than what i used to be able to, which is very depressing for me. 

There’s probably no way i could drive to work for 8 hours at a regular job, and drive back home safely. I’m definitely not functional in that sense. I also try to do Uber Eats on the side, but there’s times where the Valium just gets the better of me, and it just isn’t safe to drive. 

Fortunately, I do have a great doctor who is flexible and willing to try different things, so i will reach out to him about it.

Btw, do you know if it’s possible to have a flareup in symptoms after being sick? I am wondering if that’s what i am experiencing today. I just got over a pretty gnarly head cold/fever. I know it has nothing to do with withdrawal symptoms, because i got it from my kid who had the same symptoms.

Btw, how bad was it tapering from Klonopin? I’ve heard that is the hardest one to taper from.

Also, is Valium the most sedative benzo of all the main ones? 

Sorry for all the extra questions, but i sincerely appreciate your time. 

[[je...]]

No need to apologise for asking questions, that's we're all here for - to support each other.

36 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

Btw, do you know if it’s possible to have a flareup in symptoms after being sick?

Yes, it's possible. I always felt worse during and after being sick.

37 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

Btw, how bad was it tapering from Klonopin? I’ve heard that is the hardest one to taper from.

It was no walk in the park, but I was functional. I worked for the most part during my taper, until I got Long Covid and then I had to quit my job because I was too sick from LC to continue working. I really struggled to work. It was so hard. My saving grace was that I had done this job for 15+ years so I was running on auto pilot. I never felt good. Every day I looked at my colleagues and wondered if they could tell how terribly sick I felt. But no one ever commented, so I just kept faking it. When I was home, I just wanted to be on the couch. I only did what was expected of me. I attended all my kids' events, but I didn't enjoy it. I did it for them. But I think I was doing much better than many people here on BB. 

I personally don't think one benzo is necessarily harder than the other to taper when it comes to symptoms. I think they're all nasty (well maybe Xanax is tougher because you could be dealing with interdose withdrawal as well). Klonopin is more difficult to taper when it comes to making smaller cuts because it's very potent and it doesn't come in small pill sizes. But I'm glad I didn't cross over because I was stable all the way down. I'm doing much better now. 

I know there are lots of people who struggle with Valium. If you're having a really tough time, then chat to your doc about Klonopin. I'm not saying don't cross over, just do your research before making a decision. You've given it quite a bit of time to adjust to the Valium. I'm sorry the cross over is not quite working for you.  

[[Md...]]

7 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

No need to apologise for asking questions, that's we're all here for - to support each other.

Yes, it's possible. I always felt worse during and after being sick.

It was no walk in the park, but I was functional. I worked for the most part during my taper, until I got Long Covid and then I had to quit my job because I was too sick from LC to continue working. I really struggled to work. It was so hard. My saving grace was that I had done this job for 15+ years so I was running on auto pilot. I never felt good. Every day I looked at my colleagues and wondered if they could tell how terribly sick I felt. But no one ever commented, so I just kept faking it. When I was home, I just wanted to be on the couch. I only did what was expected of me. I attended all my kids' events, but I didn't enjoy it. I did it for them. But I think I was doing much better than many people here on BB. 

I personally don't think one benzo is necessarily harder than the other to taper when it comes to symptoms. I think they're all nasty (well maybe Xanax is tougher because you could be dealing with interdose withdrawal as well). Klonopin is more difficult to taper when it comes to making smaller cuts because it's very potent and it doesn't come in small pill sizes. But I'm glad I didn't cross over because I was stable all the way down. I'm doing much better now. 

I know there are lots of people who struggle with Valium. If you're having a really tough time, then chat to your doc about Klonopin. I'm not saying don't cross over, just do your research before making a decision. You've given it quite a bit of time to adjust to the Valium. I'm sorry the cross over is not quite working for you.  

Thank you so much for your words of wisdom, as well as sharing your personal story.

You’ve helped me in the past, and you have helped me just now, so for that I thank you. 🙏 

[[Md...]]

On 15/01/2024 at 19:28, [[j...] said:

No need to apologise for asking questions, that's we're all here for - to support each other.

Yes, it's possible. I always felt worse during and after being sick.

It was no walk in the park, but I was functional. I worked for the most part during my taper, until I got Long Covid and then I had to quit my job because I was too sick from LC to continue working. I really struggled to work. It was so hard. My saving grace was that I had done this job for 15+ years so I was running on auto pilot. I never felt good. Every day I looked at my colleagues and wondered if they could tell how terribly sick I felt. But no one ever commented, so I just kept faking it. When I was home, I just wanted to be on the couch. I only did what was expected of me. I attended all my kids' events, but I didn't enjoy it. I did it for them. But I think I was doing much better than many people here on BB. 

I personally don't think one benzo is necessarily harder than the other to taper when it comes to symptoms. I think they're all nasty (well maybe Xanax is tougher because you could be dealing with interdose withdrawal as well). Klonopin is more difficult to taper when it comes to making smaller cuts because it's very potent and it doesn't come in small pill sizes. But I'm glad I didn't cross over because I was stable all the way down. I'm doing much better now. 

I know there are lots of people who struggle with Valium. If you're having a really tough time, then chat to your doc about Klonopin. I'm not saying don't cross over, just do your research before making a decision. You've given it quite a bit of time to adjust to the Valium. I'm sorry the cross over is not quite working for you.  

Sorry to bother you again but how long after being sick did you feel worse?

Today i feel particularly bad and barely functional, worse than yesterday. Im wondering if my withdrawal symptoms are just getting worse, but they feel too strong for the rate Ive been tapering.

Is it possible im in tolerance withdrawal? Just wondering how you distinguish the difference between withdrawals from tapering and tolerance withdrawal.

Edited January 17 by [Md...]

[[je...]]

I would usually start feeling better after about 2 weeks. 

From what I understand tolerance withdrawal symptoms remain consistent throughout your taper. The intensity doesn't vary. Usually it's pretty bad and you feel these intense symptoms all the time. There are no windows.  That's what I understand from reading on the forum, but my interpretation might not be accurate. 

[[Md...]]

Just now, [[j...] said:

I would usually start feeling better after about 2 weeks. 

From what I understand tolerance withdrawal symptoms remain consistent throughout your taper. The intensity doesn't vary. Usually it's pretty bad and you feel these intense symptoms all the time. There are no windows.  That's what I understand from reading on the forum, but my interpretation might not be accurate. 

Thanks for your feedback!