Crazy intrusive thoughts coming off Valium

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Hi everyone

im tapering off Valium and down to 4mg, with a kindled nervous system.  I’m having trouble coping with the crazy intrusive thoughts.  I don’t have them much when my eyes are open, but trying to get to sleep or meditate it’s impossible.  I have got an antipsychotic zyprexa which I take when the thoughts are intense but it’s mildly effective.  Any coping strategies would be so appreciated 

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You already have an excellent coping strategy right in from of your eyes...  When your eyes are open you're overloading your brain with information it must process.  Try a different trick when you have your eyes closed by overloading your brain with information from other senses: like music, a burning incense, aroma therapy, etc.

The issue with intrusive thoughts go through stages.  At first they're difficult to handle because we somehow still identify with our thoughts and the fear that we're going insane, act on them, etc.  But when you stop identifying with your thoughts or fighting them they gradually lose power and frequency.  The moment will come when a crazy thought comes in and you just laugh it off because of its absurdity. 

Try also to understand the mechanism behind the White Bear Paradox of Ironic Process Theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory

Edited January 12 by [ve...]

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@[...] Hello,

Depending on your interests and possibilities, podcasts, without ads or high sounds  could be helpful. It helps me a lot personally. I even created a long video (but it could as well be audio). There are a lot of long videos on YT, but also good podcast services. 

I listed to it whenever I feel tired or going to sleep, or my anxiety goes up.

Just find something you are interested in. In the beginning I listened to benzo coaches - fellow sufferers, and it helped a lot (techniques, mindset etc.). Now I listen to other topics too. 

Edited January 12 by [Re...]

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Hi Winters sun

i started this taper at 12.5mg (8 months ago) and have reduced by .5mg every 2 weeks until i got down to 6.5mg when i started holding for 3 - 4 weeks.  My previous taper off Valium was in 13 weeks December to March last year ( after being on .25 Xanax once a day for 9 weeks ) dropping.5mg every 2 weeks.  It was too quick for my body and 13 days later I was an absolute emotional mess so my doctor reinstated me on Xanax and we quickly went up to 1mg which actually made my withdrawal symptoms even worse.   I realised then that I was Kindled.  So 3 days ago I have done my last.5 mg reduction which is about 11.1% and I am so depressed, restlessness and intrusive thoughts.  I’m going to hold for 3-4 weeks and change 1mg pill to 1 ml liquid in about a week.  I have found that even holding for 4 weeks makes my symptoms worse.  My future reductions will then be between 6 and 9% and holding 2-3 weeks. Interesting thing is my symptoms have become more intense once I reached around the same 4 mg dose I was originally on in December 2022. This makes me think the true kindling of my body is from 5 - 4 mg down as my taper this time was bearable until the last month.  Any advice would be great.  I’m concerned about the change to liquid Valium re inflaming my withdrawal symptoms 

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Hi @[...]

Rather than making that sizeable reduction once a month as you’ve been doing, I’d go back to reducing by half that amount (or less) every two weeks or so. Reducing by such a large percentage monthly isn’t helping you at all in terms of the initial reduction withdrawal. You’re getting hit hard! 

If you reduce by half that amount (or less), you will most likely not only recover quicker, but it will also have less accumulative impact on your CNS as you reduce… 

Yes… with each reduction withdrawal, it impacts on your brain and recovers over time, but consistently over-impacting your CNS with these large cuts causes an accumulative effect whereby you struggle more and more to recover making each next cut less tolerable and you more destabilised. 

If you take a look at my taper history, you’ll see how I started making 1mg cuts beginning at 10mg’s and by 7mg’s I had to decrease my reductions to 0.5mg which still hit me too hard. I then held for 3 or so months to stabilise and then began reducing by 5% of each remaining total dose. As I got below 4mg, I realised I probably should’ve lowered that 5% slightly as the cuts began to hit harder again… rather than crashing and updosing to 4mg’s again. I’m now down to about 3mg’s and cutting at about 4% every two weeks or so. The reduction withdrawal still hits, but it’s much less impactful on my CNS and I’m much more functional and comfortable over all. 

Since you feel you don’t completely recover… I would hold until you have a day or two where you can say to yourself… ‘My system has now recovered from that last cut, and any wave from here on is a random effect of the drug itself rather than ongoing withdrawal from a the most recent cut’. Then switch to the liquid and hold on the equivalent dose until your system has adjusted to the new delivery system. 

Alternatively, you could considerably decrease the size of your pill form reductions as I have mentioned above, and see if that provides the smoother ride you’re looking for before trying to switch to the liquid form which could (potentially) present with its own issues. 

You will no doubt have some level of varying symptoms to contend with along the way… however, it’s more about smoothing the ride out as much as possible, as opposed to avoiding symptoms altogether. 

I hope this has helped in some way. 

If this brings up any other questions… please feel free to ask! 👍

Edited January 13 by Guest

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Winters sun thank you so much for your guidance.  You have given me hope.  I was going to change to the liquid as I can’t accurately cut the pills down to .2 or .1 doses.  Also the “”low dose antidepressant Paxil im on has stopped working and my doctor wants me to do a straight swap onto Celexa.  But I’ve made my mind up that one change is enough and that priority is the Valium and the Valium liquid 

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I've changed to a combo of liquid and pill form. Im still further up the chain than you are, but you got the right Idea. make a 1mg/ml solution, and grab yourself a 100cc oral syringe and you can accurately cut out by the .001. but ALWAYS shake the bottle of solution before dosing. Never forget that. 

I will also say, none of it has been linear in my experience. I don't use 'weeks' to mark my tapering or 'days' I just use my body signals... which I pay attention to, and that tells me when im ready. So sometimes I've found I can do like 6 days, other times it's been up to 3-4 weeks before dropping... Like you, I cannot handle much more than 5-7.5% reductions without becoming non-functional. For me, 11-12%, I think I did one time, was almost not tolerable. I was also forced to make something like a 25% reduction at first (reason explained on my post) which had me bedridden for a week. (xanax is my current medication) regardless of medication, the percentages are all relevant, and we're all different in what we can and cant handle. But dont let it get ya down too much if you get 'stuck' at a certain place for what is maybe longer than you personally want. We're all naturally wired to want 'instant gratification' and all have the 'want off NOW' mentality, so its very tough to do, to tell yourself its okay to not be okay and do the opposite, but it will pay out in the end to be the tortoise instead of the hare in this race. you got this. Hang in there. *fist bump* 

 

Oh and btw. I get those crazy night thoughts too. You're not alone. I sleep with the TV on, probably doesnt help lmao, but breathing. Focusing on just breathing in hold it for 10 seconds, let it out. Repeat 5-8 times. I also wrote a sticky note and put it on the wall next to my room door I read it every night and day that my therapist said:

'The only ME I need to compare myself to is the ME of yesterday' that's it. Simple, and gives reassurance (to me) 

 

You can also try 'grounding'. Which involves going outside during the day, barefoot, and just standing on the earth. supposedly it helps calm the body, and remove frequencies that we get from all the devices we have in our houses that affect our system. You can also do this while sitting/meditating. This is more holistic, but give it a try. It actually helps me a little here and there. 

 

One more thing is you can get up, and sit in a chair and read  for 10 minutes-15 mins..... then lay back down. Repeat this until you fall asleep. Sometimes it could be up to 4-5-6 times, but eventually the thoughts clear and you get drowsy and fade out.

 

If I come up with anything else Ill let you know, but I hope anything I have given here helps in some way. Good luck. You got this. take it a minute at a time if you got too, and tell yourself it's okay to not be okay! because it is! I promose. its fine to not be fine. Eventually, you will be fine.  

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Victor D such wise words I thank you so much for taking the time to reply.  I am retired PTSD, so I exercise a lot walk/jog 1 hour a day, swim 1.5 k 5 days a week and cycle 1 hour a day 6 days a week.  Even with the depression I have from the Valium I force myself exercise as it definitely helps my mood and anxiety for a couple of hours.  I also do advanced box breathing and yoga nidra meditation daily about 2 hours total.  I really you guys have got it right I’m now making too bigger reductions for my body to recover from before the next reduction.  I do have a digital scale I purchased for some prescription medicinal cannabis.  It goes down to.05mg, but when I weigh a2 mg Valium pill it says 1.7

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Yeah, you need a jewellers scale. 
 

https://www.amazon.com.au/Precision-Milligram-Tweezers-Calibration-Weighing/dp/B011J88S8M/ref=asc_df_B011J88S8M/?tag=googleshopdsk-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=341774158480&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6177323960467239923&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9072354&hvtargid=pla-310643494494&psc=1&mcid=b041b04359ec3d728090eb3e1e09be2a
 

weighs down to 0.001

Edited January 13 by Guest

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Edited January 13 by [VI...]
adding some info.

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Winters Sun I do have a digital scale I purchased from the tobacconist for some medical cannabis which only made my withdrawal symptoms worse.  I can’t tolerate any thc.  I’m currently using 120mg cbd oil with 14mg thca non activated thc and it helps a little.  I just read your link on the jewellers scale and I think that’s the way to go.  It gets rid of a potential problem with changing over to the liquid as I’m concerned it might make my symptoms worse 

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I think it absolutely makes sense to exhaust all options relating to dry form tapering before potentially attempting a switch to the liquid form. 👍

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I agree 

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I would also agree. I have both at my disposal and do use both depending, but please research this first if that's a route you decide to try. Or at worse, send it off to a compounding pharmacy if you can, or are willing to pay for it if insurance doesn't and they can do it for you. Liquid methods can really work really really well once you actually do know what you're doing to do it properly and don't waste medication. It does require math and planning, but can be done 100% legally. If this is something you do end up exploring, you could always start with like 1-5mg and see how the dosing feels. I'll spare you the first bit of info: The first thing you'll find is you cannot use water. I could upload a picture of my solution, but I'm not sure if it's allowed. I just made a 30ml/30mg alprazolam solution out of my extra pills. But still use dry methods as well. They both have their advantages/disadvantages to be fair, which is why I use both and not only limit myself to one single method. 

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Thanks for your advice Victor D.  I did purchase the V liquid 3 weeks ago, but I have had a lot of people including my psychiatrist and GP say that the absorption rates will be different between the pills and the liquid and as my nervous system is so hypersensitive to just the slightest change, I have decided not to use the liquid.  I purchased a good quality jewellers digital scale through Amazon today and I will continue with dry cutting and measuring my smaller reduction sizes.  I have finally let go of my taper schedule and the forecast of being off by mid June, I now have resigned myself to getting to zero whenever that time shall be.  I’m aiming to do all my cuts from here on around 5 - 7%

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