Advice on Taper

[[Da...]]

Hi, New here so not sure how it all works yet so I thought I would start by posing my question.  Prescribed Clonazepam 1mg 2X daily for 20 years (Post Partum Depression :(.  I am already in severe tolerance but said no to increase.  Last week I stopped taking one dose of the clonazepam and have been taking the night time dose of 1mg.  My Psch refuses to read through the Ashton Manual but I will be more assertive at my next appointment.  My question is, since I am day 7 into the 1mg decrease, should I continue from there.  I am not any worse for stopping 1mg (I have every horrendous symptom for the past 6 months anyway).  Should I continue with the rest of the taper at 1mg per day as opposed to going back up to 2?  My plan is to with to Diazepam for the other 1 mg.  Oh and to add to that, have been taking Zopliclone 7.5 mg at night as well (Ya my Psych wants to add more!).  Should I taper the zopliclone at the same time?  Thanks so much for any experience or advice.

 

Smiles,

Darlene

[[Pa...]]

Hello @[Da...], welcome to BenzoBuddies,

Wow, a 50% reduction and you’re still functioning, this is good news!  I can see you’re suffering though, tolerance is horrible so if you’ve survived this reduction, I’d say you’ve made a great start.  

Most Clonazepam users report symptoms showing up around day 3 and evening out around day 10 so you may be okay to stay at 1 mg for the time being, but I would definitely slow down from here on out. 

Most of our Clonazepam users will taper directly from it because its half life is decent.  I rarely suggest crossing over unless the member is dealing with severe interdose withdrawal.  We can help you taper from the Clonazepam if your doctor isn’t willing to prescribe Valium.  Crossing can be tricky, many mention the sedation and the depression side effects but most will acclimate to it, some have to go back to their original benzo. 

We don’t recommend tapering more than one mediation at a time, and Zopilcone can be tricky, its classified as a z-drug but it acts much more like a benzodiazepine so care needs to be taken when considering how to taper it.  

Let’s keep talking so we can help you work through this.

Pamster

[[Da...]]

Hi @[Pa...]

 

Thank You!  Yeah my psych thinks my symptoms are not Benzo related, however I know they have ruined my life.  My 1 mg pills are really small and purring in half is about all I can do.  I would appreciate any support in the taper process, all the doctors say, "you can't stop them now, you're not stable enough."  They don't seem to understand these medications are the reason I am not stable.  They refuse to even scan through the Ashton's manual.  My pharmacist did and it made sense to her.  Ugh frustrating.  So yes any and all advice is welcomed.

 

Smiles,

D

 

Edited January 11 by [Da...]

[[Pa...]]

I’m glad you’re under a doctors care, even if they don’t understand benzodiazepines and what they do to us, suicide is not the answer, its a permanent solution to a temporary problem so let’s get you on the path to recovery.

We can help you taper, we have many creative methods to choose from, but first, would your doctor be willing to prescribe a smaller dose size to make tapering easier? 

I wonder if your doctors would be willing to take a look at this document? https://corxconsortium.org/wp-content/uploads/Benzo-Deprescribing.pdf

[[VI...]]

I wouldn't assert it too much... or try to slap too much 'google' info in their faces some of them like to call it. They can discharge you for it, and I have been a victim of this in the past and you're left high and dry. If worse comes to worse, pretend to go along with what they want you to do, and start doing the opposite on your own with the help of the community and resources like the Ashton manual you mention. If they are receptive though, then by all means do what you need to do.

 

There's also there's a lot of people here with good resources and advice that can help as well.. Some not so good but you just have to sift through the good and bad and do what works best for you and your body. The thing I've learned the most is to not compare yourself to anyone else because we are all different. What works for one, might not work for another. Like for me 50% would have me in bed for a week. I'm super sensitive and unlucky because I withdrawal hard, some people don't withdrawal as hard and function fine and can go quickly. I'm on a different medication than you though and, currently in a 'hold' phase. I will say at least for me, it's not necessarily linear either. Sometimes you can drop doses in 'x' days one or 2 times time but it can take 'x' days the next time, sometimes you need to hold for x days. You'll find that it's important to pay attention to what your body is telling you, if you want to suffer the least.  good luck.  You got this, don't necessarily worry how long it takes. my therapist said this to me the other week and I posted it on my wall: 

"The only person I need to compare myself is to the ME of yesterday." So even if you don't feel like you're making progress at any point, just keep telling yourself that. Forget any noise around ya. 

[[Da...]]

2 hours ago, [[P...] said:

I’m glad you’re under a doctors care, even if they don’t understand benzodiazepines and what they do to us, suicide is not the answer, its a permanent solution to a temporary problem so let’s get you on the path to recovery.

We can help you taper, we have many creative methods to choose from, but first, would your doctor be willing to prescribe a smaller dose size to make tapering easier? 

I wonder if your doctors would be willing to take a look at this document? https://corxconsortium.org/wp-content/uploads/Benzo-Deprescribing.pdf

Yes...I don't even think I am in interpose withdrawals.  I think at this point I am in full blown....taking the dose makes me worse within 2 hours to the point I am on the bed, crying and shaking and begging for it to end.  Apathy, Anhedonia, Avolition, as well as dp/dr gets so traumatizing.  My doctors won't look at anything but the pharmacist is awesome and will fill my prescription in 0.5.  Taking the 1mg is merely like taking a tic tac at this point.  I have lost so much because of this ....... am losing my husband as well but I certainly don't blame him.  He wants to live a life, and I can barely get in the shower let along go outside.  It is heartbreaking.  I have been tempted to say up the dose but they would have to do such a large increase to get me functioning.  Terrified of going through this alone just to come out an old, damaged person in long term care.

[[Pa...]]

I’m sorry to know you’re in so much pain, physical as well as emotional, but you’re not alone, you have us.  We can see you through this, it’s possible to recover from these drugs, we have hundreds of success stories of members who have.  When I was suffering, I didn’t believe they were written by real people but then I wrote one so I believe now.

I’m happy your pharmacist will provide smaller dose pills, that will make tapering easier but it sounds like you’re dealing with a somewhat paradoxical reaction to your dose?  Is this typical or did it start when you reduced by 1 mg? 

 

[[Da...]]

On 09/01/2024 at 19:55, [[V...] said:

I wouldn't assert it too much... or try to slap too much 'google' info in their faces some of them like to call it. They can discharge you for it, and I have been a victim of this in the past and you're left high and dry. If worse comes to worse, pretend to go along with what they want you to do, and start doing the opposite on your own with the help of the community and resources like the Ashton manual you mention. If they are receptive though, then by all means do what you need to do.

There's also there's a lot of people here with good resources and advice that can help as well.. Some not so good but you just have to sift through the good and bad and do what works best for you and your body. The thing I've learned the most is to not compare yourself to anyone else because we are all different. What works for one, might not work for another. Like for me 50% would have me in bed for a week. I'm super sensitive and unlucky because I withdrawal hard, some people don't withdrawal as hard and function fine and can go quickly. I'm on a different medication than you though and, currently in a 'hold' phase. I will say at least for me, it's not necessarily linear either. Sometimes you can drop doses in 'x' days one or 2 times time but it can take 'x' days the next time, sometimes you need to hold for x days. You'll find that it's important to pay attention to what your body is telling you, if you want to suffer the least.  good luck.  You got this, don't necessarily worry how long it takes. my therapist said this to me the other week and I posted it on my wall: 

"The only person I need to compare myself is to the ME of yesterday." So even if you don't feel like you're making progress at any point, just keep telling yourself that. Forget any noise around ya. 

Thank you for your response.  I just did the 50% because I was in bed for about 6 months now.  I even tried Rehab but when they put me on Lyrica and other stuff I left.  So I thought to myself, I am already living in Hell and losing my husband I might as well just start this on my own.  I am not functioning at all with the exception of today.  I cannot deal with day to day life, people calling or coming by freaks me out.  I have maybe an ok day once a week.  Usually I am in bed just staring and crying.  I think I have gone over every minute of my life since a toddler seeing all my mistakes and choices as the reason I am being punished with this kind of suffering.    I had Post Partum Depression and Anemia.  And I walked into my doctors office who just took a box for his desk to give me.  I didn't even know what it was.  Big Pharma created the Mental Health Issue.   I think that shows how much I am non-functional and wondering what kind of life I have left.  I am 52 years old and as terrified of tomorrow as much as I am of the future.  Such a wasted life, it's sad that no one can be held accountable for this and no one looking for a way to solve the problem to ease the suffering.

 

Sorry for the long rant.  I guess I found a place where I can be honest.  Thank You.

Edited January 11 by [Da...]

[[Da...]]

On 09/01/2024 at 20:40, [[P...] said:

I’m sorry to know you’re in so much pain, physical as well as emotional, but you’re not alone, you have us.  We can see you through this, it’s possible to recover from these drugs, we have hundreds of success stories of members who have.  When I was suffering, I didn’t believe they were written by real people but then I wrote one so I believe now.

I’m happy your pharmacist will provide smaller dose pills, that will make tapering easier but it sounds like you’re dealing with a somewhat paradoxical reaction to your dose?  Is this typical or did it start when you reduced by 1 mg? 

Thank You for the support.  I am so happy to have found this support, it is keeping me from hating myself and plotting.  I actually took a bath and realized I finally found support, even if I am losing my husband and the life we could have had.  But I want him to have a life.  Our daughter has lost her mom a long time ago, and I can't bear to think about all that I have missed and will miss because of this.   Even increasing the dose would do nothing at this point.  So stopping them is the only option.  I mean they can't give me anything more potent - that was the starting point.  I appreciate your response so much, you have no idea.

 

Thank You Again

Edited January 11 by [Da...]

[[Da...]]

14 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

I’m sorry to know you’re in so much pain, physical as well as emotional, but you’re not alone, you have us.  We can see you through this, it’s possible to recover from these drugs, we have hundreds of success stories of members who have.  When I was suffering, I didn’t believe they were written by real people but then I wrote one so I believe now.

I’m happy your pharmacist will provide smaller dose pills, that will make tapering easier but it sounds like you’re dealing with a somewhat paradoxical reaction to your dose?  Is this typical or did it start when you reduced by 1 mg? 

No This was all happening before. I seem to have been taking a paradoxical reaction to almost all medications.  Like I can't even take things like Nyquil...it does the opposite.  Also I have a high tolerance for pain....I. just recently had a Gastroencsopy (Ignore spelling) and bc it is Benzo's they give for sedation, I knew they would do nothing and refused it and had the procedure done without anything.  What is you take on the Paradoxical effect?

 

Edited January 10 by [Da...]

[[VI...]]

55 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

Thank you for your response.  I just did the 50% because I was in bed for about 6 months now.  I even tried Rehab but when they put me on Lyrica and other stuff I left.  So I thought to myself, I am already living in Hell and losing my husband I might as well just start this on my own.  I am not functioning at all with the exception of today.  I cannot deal with day to day life, people calling or coming by freaks me out.  I have maybe an ok day once a week.  Usually I am in bed just staring and crying.  I think I have gone over every minute of my life since a toddler seeing all my mistakes and choices as the reason I am being punished with this kind of suffering.  I am in Canada and as of March it may be legal for assisted death for "treatment resistant" mental health disorders.  I had Post Partum Depression and Anemia.  And I walked into my doctors office who just took a box for his desk to give me.  I didn't even know what it was.  Big Pharma created the Mental Health Issue.   I think that shows how much I am non-functional and wondering what kind of life I have left.  I am 52 years old and as terrified of tomorrow as much as I am of the future.  Such a wasted life, it's sad that no one can be held accountable for this and no one looking for a way to solve the problem to ease the suffering.

Sorry for the long rant.  I guess I found a place where I can be honest.  Thank You.

Nope Darlene, I totally understand it and go through a lot of those same things here in the 'good ole USA'  with rehab and all that. You come out on more than you went in on.... Big pharma destroyed us all. I saw a 17 year old kid and his mom at CVS last week walk out with a bag of 9 prescriptions, of those, I knew what was included by overhearing the others and ID needed to be shown, so assume adderal or a benzo or maybe both who knows.. It's sad and disgusting. My twin sister of 29 has stage 4 breast cancer and because the company she is working for is having some sort of insurance issue, some of her appointments and treatments may be delayed since they're upwards of 12-45k a week... With how our system is designed, we cant afford it so we just wait... What else can we do?. Big pharma/society has let us all down, imo. It's just a money machine, the insurance, all the bs... that topic is not for here I know....  I cry as a man, not afraid to admit it. Wonder why every day is a living hell, and just as scared of what tomorrow brings as you are. I hate even looking in the mirror. Im down like 35lbs. I see my doc on a screen, actually tomorrow, because its all telehealth now bi-weekly (which is fine & not imo) but she's overwhelmed with too many patients although an angel luckily and talk to a therapist on a phone once a week because Im required to. At least that helps some. I feel like my days drag, and the purpose lacks. I feel like a cog in the system that isn't going to get anywhere, but I just try to do my best every day, and thats all I can ask for, you know? 

[[Da...]]

3 minutes ago, [[V...] said:

but I just try to do my best every day, and thats all I can ask for, you know? 

I totally know.  I didn't understand why Benzo's were so hard to come off, worse than alcohol and street drugs until I read "The Benzo Book" today.  It seems the only thing that keeps me out of the bedroom is researching, hoping to piece together the pieces of me that needs to be put in place.  I also think it is negligent of any doctor to assume that a MH diagnosis is the only thing we will ever have to deal with.  I may as well be in the USA, I paid for a private MRI and have spent quite a bit for at home testing, genetics, vitamins and nutrients and urine tests - mostly because I cannot get myself out the door to go get these things done in person.  Funny thing is, it seemed to have hit me in one day.  I was on the same dosage for 20 years, with 2 cold turkeyed times, but this time last year I was a very different person; socializing, vacations etc.  I keep trying to figure out how it happened SO FAST, given it was the same dosage.  Now it seems my entire personality is void.

[[VI...]]

28 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

  Funny thing is, it seemed to have hit me in one day.  I was on the same dosage for 20 years, with 2 cold turkeyed times, but this time last year I was a very different person; socializing, vacations etc.  I keep trying to figure out how it happened SO FAST, given it was the same dosage.  Now it seems my entire personality is void.

It can be like that! I've come off opiates and benzos before. Each time was different. Some of the main symptoms, the same, but there was variance every time, and I also noticed, each time worse. Id say this.... As far as benzos, I think it just has something to do with the way the GABA receptor works in our CNS, which causes the mental anguish of coming off of it to be very perplexing. There are people on here who understand it was more than I do, But to me, even being on About 3mg a day xanax, I feel like my personality is VOID. Just VOID. I thought benzos short term would help with sleep, then got dependent again. Long story short, even taking them Is suffering. I get maybe 5-6 hrs a day that I consider 'good' the rest revolves around waiting for a dose. smh. 

 

Edit: not to mention I have to basically strongarm the pharmacy to get my meds filled same day anymore... its so god freaking stressful and scary. I feel shackled to the ground picking up a prescription I need every week.. just hoping its on time.

Edited January 10 by [VI...]
adding info

[[Da...]]

5 minutes ago, [[V...] said:

Long story short, even taking them Is suffering.

It sure is....I want to just STOP them now but because I am aware of PAWS I won't.  I don't have any problems with getting them, I have tons because I often forget, maybe that is why I am suffering as well, inconsistency in taking them?  I hate taking them and am not waiting because I get sick right after taking the dose.  Right now it is 10:35 PM for me, and I have been out of bed for over 8 hrs which is HUGE for me.  The distraction of reading that book today and coming on here has distracted me enough that I have not felt this calm in eons!!!  Trying not to think about what tomorrow will be like but I am exhausted with waking up and sighing "another day to get through!"  

[[le...]]

Hang in there, it's hard as fuck and it may take a while but it gets better. Try doing things you enjoy even if you don't feel ok, I forced myself to go out and do stuff even if walking felt like dying. You won't die, and after some time you will start to enjoy yourself and see improvement. If going out seems too much then start by doing stuff you like around the house. But remember, try doing it even if you have to force yourself. There's nothing to lose with trying.

[[Da...]]

2 hours ago, [[P...] said:

I’m happy your pharmacist will provide smaller dose pills, that will make tapering easier

I can get 0.25, where would I find info on the taper.  I am a week with the 50% decrease, where should I go from here.  I'll need clear details as my brain is nothing except fog, unfortunately  But I am eager to rid myself of this, especially knowing the paradoxical effect it now has on me.  I truly do feel better not taking it.  Thanks so much

D

[[le...]]

I think the Ashton Manual does 10% decreases, this was not feasible for me, so the best I could do was halving the pills, then turn them into quarters then cutting the quarters in half, that would be 1/8 less every few weeks, so 12.5% decreases, that was good enough for me.

Edited January 10 by [le...]

[[Da...]]

34 minutes ago, [[l...] said:

I think the Ashton Manual does 10% decreases, this was not feasible for me, so the best I could do was halving the pills, then turn them into quarters then cutting the quarters in half, that would be 1/8 less every few weeks, so 12.5% decreases, that was good enough for me.

Ya I think I am at a point where I need someone to help me with a schedule and what to do..how long to hold etc, etc....My brain is in shut down mode.  I've tried to do my own schedule based on Ashton Manual but to no avail.

[[le...]]

Don't worry, the brain fog will pass, I don't know for the rest, but it was one of the first things to improve for me. Ask your doc or find a better doc, keep trying, in the meantime either hold the dose or get as close to 10% decreases as you can and do a decrease every 2 to 4 weeks depending how you feel. You will have to pay attention to how you feel without obsessing too much.

[[ns...]]

4 hours ago, [[D...] said:

Yes...I don't even think I am in interpose withdrawals.  I think at this point I am in full blown....taking the dose makes me worse within 2 hours to the point I am on the bed, crying and shaking and begging for it to end.  Apathy, Anhedonia, Avolition, as well as dp/dr gets so traumatizing.  My doctors won't look at anything but the pharmacist is awesome and will fill my prescription in 0.5.  Taking the 1mg is merely like taking a tic tac at this point.  I have lost so much because of this ....... am losing my husband as well but I certainly don't blame him.  He wants to live a life, and I can barely get in the shower let along go outside.  It is heartbreaking.  I have been tempted to say up the dose but they would have to do such a large increase to get me functioning.  Terrified of going through this alone just to come out an old, damaged person in long term care.

Darlene71,

Hey listen. You're doing great! I've been tapering and I'm on A hold pattern now, sometimes it's best to just take a break,vwaitbtil u stabilize then go down again. I have the same issue,  Lorazapam literally reversed its intended use so I had to go off, but it's not so easy, but I want them gone! They give me panic attacks, anxiety and horrible withdrawal symptoms, but it only happens during my daytime doses. I'm at 1mg now, splt into 4 doses, so even thus little tiny dose causes me miserable symptoms. Not.many of. Us have had this issue but I've found a few. 

I'm sorry to hear about your marriage, you can do this! God will give u the strength to get thru it! 

We are survivors and that makes us strong! I know its tough to keep getting knocked down only to get back up and do it again, but that's what makes us stronger! 

I watch therapy in a nutshell On YouTube with Emma, she's great for anxiety and panic disorder, as well as ptsd and trauma. My ears are shot so I use the cc option. But it really helps to have that prospective. I am a woman of faith, I watch sermons, read my Bible on Bible gateway on my.phone because i can't sit up straight to read my bible.i practice gratitude and thankfulness, even in the midst of despair, it is amazing how being grateful can help with symptoms, and to recognize that our lives could always be worse. I know it doesn't seem possible but once u start being thankful for a home, a bed, foid etc, you realize that we are so blessed!

Just a thought for u to put into practice.  Taking your mind off of your problems and putting your focus to a higher purpose. 

I am here to talk, if ever u need a friend, many here will do the same and I pray you will keep.im touch! 

It's late, my belly is in spasms so I'm going to try to rest. 

Talk to u tomorrow ok, take care

Ns

[[Da...]]

15 minutes ago, [[n...] said:

Just a thought for u to put into practice.  Taking your mind off of your problems and putting your focus to a higher purpose. 

 

TY!!!  That is very inspiring!!!  And I believe it...I am having an absolutely wonderful night because I found this group and received responses immediately.  It also helps to take the guild and shame away!!!  I don't know what tomorrow will be like but I do know I will check in here for daily inspiration.  I have nothing but gratitude for this group and I too, am a woman of faith (non denominational).  I have questioned my purpose a zillion times over the past months and I know somewhere, in all of this, there just has to be a reason I am suffering like this, but it is far from easy.  So far though, the support here did more than years of therapy!!!  BTW how did your CT Scan go?  You do not need to answer, I was just thinking about you and hoping all was well   Good Night